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[Irish Lad View Member Profile]

Setting the record - straight facts and figures.

Facts:

The car is solid and the company offers a full 90 day warranty on 95% of the car, all parts are available off the shelf some parts come from china some are purchased locally.

With regards to the arms front and rear these are Chromoly and the material comes from Parker Hannifin in Shanghai they are the largest supplier to Bowing Aircraft in the world and is an American owned and based company.

The chassis is made from 1018 certified steel also supplied by Parker Hannifin

The shocks utilized are built by a manufacturer that builds for VW and Porsche now and several other German, American shocks and strut so called manufacturers (They contract to china factories) the factory is owned by a German and a China man.

The Chromoly axels and CVs and S10 micro stubs they are now using are supplied by the supplier that makes these for GM and similar parts for BMW, VW, Mercedes and 27 other car manufacturers they typically supply 40,000 axels/ drive assemblies a month and employ 4500 people the factory is owned by a German and an American.

The brakes and machined parts are made by a reputable company that makes a ton of parts for Harley Davidson, Yamaha, Honda cars, Ford and GM these guys employee only 2300 people. The factory is owned by a china man and an Australian.

The wheels are spun Alluminuim and the manufacturer produces 10,000 wheels a month and have been doing wheels for 35 years. An Italian and a China man own it.

Where the cars are final assembled?

All cars are final assembled here in the USA and check out 100% by the manufacturer and the dealer.

Engines used:

CBM Motor Sports, Chris and Bruce have done a great Job setting up the cars for a low speed mode (Approximately 30MPH) and Hi speed (Approximately 70 MPH) they stand behind the motors 100% and they are factory crate motors from GM not used rebuilt motors or blems like some of their competitors use and sell to other buggy builders in the market.

The Buggies are the only buggies in the USA utilizing American engines that are CARB and EPA certified for sale in the US market legally thanks to Chris and Bruce at CBM.



Gearbox:
The Wright Gear box services the transmission and Ricky recons it will handle 200HP.
The transmission is rated at 200HP although their is only 160HP only one transmission has broken in 8 months and that was one of the owners and he had it half in gear by mistake the shift cable needed adjusting.

The reason for the new transmission 6 to 1 is the demand for people racing and wanting more HP and faster speeds the car will hit 103MPH with the 6 to 1 it will also have a real diff making it easily to drive on the street and turn sharply by not having a live axel like the present cars.
The new trans will handle 300HP and 300 foot LBS of torque this is a upgrade from CBM if you have your racing license!

The cars built so far can utilize this new transmission if the customer desires to upgrade the new transmission is $1000.00 upgrade for these cars that have been built.

All existing transmissions utilize 300m shafts and Chromoly gears.
The gear manufacturers velocity utilizes have made ring and pinions that have not broken in bigger transmissions at 800 hp it should be noted the American manufacturer US gear I believe have broken at 650 hp.

The manufacturer is developing a new transmission for the F1 Panther with a full differential and will have it available at the sand show all going well that is rated at 350 HP note this transmission doesn’t exist in the world watch how many people copy it.

Note the CVT is made by Comet and Team Industries made here in the USA, this technology has been on snow mobiles for 25 plus years, this same system they are using on Mini Dragsters at 350HP now with the same belt the F1 panther is utilizing the belt it is Kevlar.

Taz car in Arizona utilizes the same clutch system and a similar transmission, they purchase their clutches from Team industries and Comet and it works well for them for the last 6 years plus?
Neil will possibly handle the exclusive distribution for the state of AZ, he has test drove the first proto type over all seamed impressed and is interested as I understand it.

With regards to testing at Lake Elsinore the car has went around the track 100 plus times with four different drivers during the week Mon /Friday.
The company test car has been and jumped at least 500 times 3 to 6 foot between Lake Elsinore and Barstow on the company test Buggy so far to date it has broken the following:

1. Blew two CVs purchase from a local supplier before they had the qualified off shore supplier.
2. Cracked the fans in the radiator from jumping, now they are reinforced and braced so this won’t happen again on any car, all cars have a 12 month warranty and the radiator and the fans.
3. Have had two heim joints go bad, they now have Chromoly metric ones the original ones are brass not as strong however hold up reasonably, the existing Chromoly supplier supplies to two well know Chromoly manufacturers here in the USA
4. The car has blown two front tires off the rim and 3 on the rear because they were not using bead locks.


Note the car has 300 hours on it this car has more hours then any other car note they tested the car for 6 months before releasing to the public.

Their are no cracked frames or arms note it was jumped on hard rocks and terrain not just Glamis the cars are dual sport try jumping the typically none dual sport car 500 times 3 to 6 foot on this terrain and see what breaks.

The car has had a tires come off the rim in testing because of not having bead locks this happened on a Sunday in front of Lake Elsinore crowd of 600 people along with the breaking radiator fans after getting 4-5 foot of air.

The car has a 90 day warranty, this says a lot you can buy a new car from some of the top builders in the industry for two to five times the cost and the warranty typically expires when you put it in the trailer at the manufacturer.

The warranty is held with the local distributor, the manufacturer doesn’t deal directly with the customer however will support the dealer distributor and the customer 100% if the item is questionable to what went wrong the manufacturer has cover every part every time.
The owner’s phone number is on his web site and anyone can talk to him for help or suggestions on what they are building they dont claim to know everything.

The car is enginneered in Solid works and ACAD by American and chinneese enginneers with master degrees i nenginneering all parts are made to a drawing and all suspension is 100% tested in solid works before building the car.
Thier are four people employeed in the quality inspection of the cars as they are produced.

All parts utilized on the car can be purchased from the dealers that came with the car or you can buy cross over parts from Mc Kenizes, Kartec, SU, and Napa, Auto zone pending part you can also go to your local GM dealer and get the engine serviced at 100,000 miles or get the oil changed at jiffy lube.

Setting the record straight:

Their has never been four of these cars at the track in Elsinore as quoted if you can show me proof of this i will give you $100,000, their was two cars the day the demo car lost a front tire in front of 600 people, the second car was a customers and he wasn’t their to drive it was yellow car and the test car was red.

The manufacturer has never sold any one a transmission except to The Wright gear box and I believe it was two 091 transmissions used about five years ago ask Ricky.
If the manufacturer sold you a transmission or a car he sure doesn’t know who you are bring it back for a full refund he would love to meet you in person.

The car has a live axel this dosent let it turn easy on asphalt this is why it looked like it didn’t turn easily at the demo in Delmar, on dirt it will spin full 360s in 12-15 foot radius.

China reality, not rumors, not assumptions, not Ignorance:

The assumption from the people that have not traveled and experience the real world that all parts that come from china or Asia are junk this is not true exactly but you may have to get on a flight to go their before you will realize this.
Maybe look at Toyota, Honda, GM, VW, and several other manufacturers building cars in China, it should be noted GM is number one producer of cars in china and VW is number two..

If you are the guy that is looking for the cheapest part and you wish to find some one to build you the cheapest part, you don’t have to go to Asia you can get that done here in the USA and you will have Junk as well, if you are not looking for dependability, durability and quality.

Quality and dependability can be found in china and the rest of the world just like here, you have to look hard and you can not expect to pay the cheapest price if quality and the right material of construction are a factor and the over all out come...

The shocking part to all is the majority of the daily drivers you are driving more then likely most of the components came from China or India, Ford, Chevrolet, GM, Honda and Toyota did they forget to tell you where most of the components where made or did you not ask?

I bet you asked for the best price how did you think they where going to get you the best price?

The day you elected to purchase a computer for $500.00 instead of buying an IBM computer for $3500.00 you choose to use an offshore supplier.

The day you elected to purchase a Harley you elected to purchase a bike that utilizes off shore components from Taiwan and China I can take you to the factories if you like.

If you choose not to ask the question and assume they didn’t purchase parts from Asia and bury your head in the sand (literally) it will not change the reality of a world market.

The company owners have been making mechanical equipment and parts for 22 years for existing OEMs here in the USA and Europe they also supply parts MADE IN THE USA to manufacturers and customers in Asia and Europe 117 companies in all.
Approximately 57% of the owners total business has been export to companies all over the world for 22 years employing Americans 75 to be exact.

The main parts velocity affiliated companies contracted off shore to be built have been mechanical components for 22 years in several industries they presently build parts for 14 companies in all here in the USA some of which you have purchased Buggies from.

Velocity will not build any part that is patented unless it is for the guy that holds the patent, most parts Velocity utilizes where already being built for another supplier some where in the world or for the original manufacturer pending part.

Velocity’s affiliate companies has contracted building factories and parts for people offshore that wish to sell to a world market and compete in a world market.

Food for thought:
There are 6.6 Billion people in the world and there are 194 countries out their just because some have not travel the world it doesn’t mean there isn’t one out their.

You may ask yourself why the heck this guy wrote so much?

What you might ask is why so many people did not exactly told the truth about the facts and reality in some cases, I figured setting the record straight with the truth might make sense before everyone has a go at bashing this guy and the company and not knowing the facts about the real world and the BS that was made up to help bash the company!

Just tell the truth I think if you call the President of Velocity you will get that, he might not tell you what you would like to hear but he will give it to you straight.

HAVE A GOOD DAY AND I TRULY WISH THE BEST TO ALL.

KING, ATV RACING, AND TOM PRO ALL BUILD GREAT CARS IT DEPENDS WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING FOR AT THE END OF THE DAY.

[yoshi View Member Profile]

Setting the record - straight facts and figures.

Facts:

The car is solid and the company offers a full 90 day warranty on 95% of the car, all parts are available off the shelf some parts come from china some are purchased locally.when does the 90 day warrenty start, when you place the order, or the day you recieve the car? I know some companies have a 90 day or longer warrenty, but the warrenty starts when they place the order, and by the time the customer gets the vehicle, the warrenty has expired


Quality and dependability can be found in china and the rest of the world just like here, you have to look hard and you can not expect to pay the cheapest price if quality and the right material of construction are a factor and the over all out come...yes it can, and maybe this rail is the exception, but from my experience and from everyone I have talked to that every owned a china based rail, they never hold up, some breaking unloading them outta the truck, i've talked to builders that are smooth talkers and say they have the greatest, cheapest product, but I have talked to their customers that don't have anything good to say, so the manufacturer/dealer will always build up their product and say their are no issues, and that goes for almost everyone. I have personally blown up a transworks transmission about 6 times behind a busa powerplant, a couple times withen 5 min. of non hard use, and I have talked to a lot of other people that have done the same thing, and then someone calls me 8 months after the fact because they read my post about the unit, and says they called transworks and when they told transworks what happened (which was the same thing that happened to me) they were told they are the first to ever have a problem, just like I was told that. I know of quite a few people that have blown it up, and I bet if you called transworks right now and asked if they had any units blow up on customers they would say no, they are holding up fine, it is an outright lie that has been told to customers that called me after they got off the phone with transworks, and they actually have a good reputation

The shocking part to all is the majority of the daily drivers you are driving more then likely most of the components came from China or India, Ford, Chevrolet, GM, Honda and Toyota did they forget to tell you where most of the components where made or did you not ask?No, you can read on the parts where they are made from, but you'll notice that those GM, Harley, Toyota, etc. vehicles are not cheap, and that's because the builders use good stuff from china and other places, not the cheaper stuff to get the price down as low as possible. Import, yes, bad import stuff, no, just like you said, good stuff can be found, and the demand for automobile stuff is higher so there are more sources to find the good stuff overseas, buggies are not nearly as profitable for china as the automobile industry is, so the quality control and competition to build a better product is not nearly as high



Velocity will not build any part that is patented unless it is for the guy that holds the patent, most parts Velocity utilizes where already being built for another supplier some where in the world or for the original manufacturer pending part.If you don't mind, I would like to see a close up of the FNR box, i'm pretty sure it is an exact copy of the RPM box, but I could be mistaken. And like it was said before, a fox shock was sent to china to be copied, and I doubt the company making the knock off is doing it for, or with the permission of fox

I'm not gonna say this thing is complete junk, I haven't seen one yet, only talked to people that have, and I of course have a biased opinion of them for 2 reasons..

1, it is my experience that China stuff doesn't hold up, I have not talked to a single owner of an import that didn't have a lot of issues..

2. It cost me more to build my rail than velocity is selling theirs for, so I can only wonder about the durability of something that for me in the business, with all my price breaks, would cost me money to producee, even if I gave it away for velocitys price, I would have to come outta pocket. And as cheap as it is, I know the manufacturer is making good money for their profit, so I can only imagine what the actual cost is.

Time will tell on this rail, maybe it's the exception, but it would be the first to my knoeledge, so i'm sure you understand the concern from people about another rail from china for a cheaper than what's built here.....

This post has been edited by yoshi: Jul 11 2007, 06:49 AM

[yoshi View Member Profile]

In all fairness, the car retails for 24k with smaller atv tires. That's really not all that cheap, if I got rid of the $2,200 worth of wheels and tires and replaced them with the atv tires similiar to what's on that car, and got rid of my gel cell battery, double bypass shocks, air bumpstops, all neal brakes and hubs to change for something a bit cheaper, momo wheel and a few other odds and ends, and if I replaced the hayabusa motor with the motor they are installing (which i'm sure is less than the busa) their price wouldn't be that much lower than mine and I don't think I would be sacraficing quality.

And altho this is from china, it is not one of the import karts, I just noticed it's built from 1-1/2" tubing, and since the design was more or less copied from another builder, the geometry is prob. pretty good on the setup, altho I don't really like the lower shock mounts on the trailing arms. So, all in all, from visual apsects of the rail, I wouldn't necessarly lump it in the import china buggies that are typically given such a bad name, which are in the 4 and 5k range. I could prob. build that bugyy with the different motor and the smaller tires and still makes some money, so that tells me they are prob. not using complete junk, otherwise the rail would be a lot cheaper.


The jury is still out for me on this one, I will wait to see how it does before I have anything major to say about it. The motor is good, the torque is good, the automatic will appeal to alot of people and the design seems mostly sound. The weight is high, I have concerns about the FNR unit, and I don't approve of knocking off other peoples stuff, but that doesn't necessarly mean it is a piece of crap, so I will sit back and see how this thing goes...

I am not trying to come across as a builder basher, I believe there is plenty of business to go around, and I will always make sales, so I get along with other builders just fine and have conversations with various builders weekly sharing ideas and talking about the market, so I will never bash a product just to try and further my business. I will, as a builder knowing more than the basic public, point out flaws and relay both good and bad things I know, or have heard, to anyone about a product to give them all the facts. I feel letting someone purchase something that I know to have many fault, and not say anything, is far worse than possible coming across as a builder basher when I point out flaws in something...

This post has been edited by yoshi: Jul 11 2007, 07:31 AM

[Irish Lad View Member Profile]

In all fairness, the car retails for 24k with smaller atv tires. That's really not all that cheap, if I got rid of the $2,200 worth of wheels and tires and replaced them with the atv tires similiar to what's on that car, and got rid of my gel cell battery, double bypass shocks, air bumpstops, all neal brakes and hubs to change for something a bit cheaper, momo wheel and a few other odds and ends, and if I replaced the hayabusa motor with the motor they are installing (which i'm sure is less than the busa) their price wouldn't be that much lower than mine and I don't think I would be sacraficing quality.

And altho this is from china, it is not one of the import karts, I just noticed it's built from 1-1/2" tubing, and since the design was more or less copied from another builder, the geometry is prob. pretty good on the setup, altho I don't really like the lower shock mounts on the trailing arms. So, all in all, from visual apsects of the rail, I wouldn't necessarly lump it in the import china buggies that are typically given such a bad name, which are in the 4 and 5k range. I could prob. build that bugyy with the different motor and the smaller tires and still makes some money, so that tells me they are prob. not using complete junk, otherwise the rail would be a lot cheaper.


The jury is still out for me on this one, I will wait to see how it does before I have anything major to say about it. The motor is good, the torque is good, the automatic will appeal to alot of people and the design seems mostly sound. The weight is high, I have concerns about the FNR unit, and I don't approve of knocking off other peoples stuff, but that doesn't necessarly mean it is a piece of crap, so I will sit back and see how this thing goes...

I am not trying to come across as a builder basher, I believe there is plenty of business to go around, and I will always make sales, so I get along with other builders just fine and have conversations with various builders weekly sharing ideas and talking about the market, so I will never bash a product just to try and further my business. I will, as a builder knowing more than the basic public, point out flaws and relay both good and bad things I know, or have heard, to anyone about a product to give them all the facts. I feel letting someone purchase something that I know to have many fault, and not say anything, is far worse than possible coming across as a builder basher when I point out flaws in something...

Understanding what you are saying i have not seen one of your cars to comment whether it is complete Junk or not either i do have experience with your competitors and they build fine cars the same as you i am sure, however i think i can pass Judgment when i see your car for the first time myself not based on opinions,,,,, you no what they say about opinions!

I will say, I appreciate your reasonable answers and would say don’t beat the new guy to hard I am sure the first 1- 10 cars anyone built including yourself had their far share of problems???

I do not think this would mean doing business with you would make you a bad guy or a bad company to do business with, the only way this would be true would be if you didn’t back up what you did with a warranty to your customer especially if they where design flaws or a bad selection in parts used.

Our warranty starts when the customer receives the car from the dealer as in a 90 day warranty however if a part fails that was caused a poor design i would expect us to warrenty that part for at least a year or longer if in fact it was a bad design from the get go.

We are reviewing offering at 12 month extended warranty and will be more then likely be available by September time frame it should be noted you can not get this warranty from the top 5 ATV manufactures in the ATV industry or any of your existing parts suppliers to the best of my knowledge this is where i would say is putting your money where your mouth is warrenty.

The difference in what we do versus the $5000 junk you have seen come from china is we are an American owned factory like many of the factories we do business with and we have a combined manufacturing experience of 73 years between me and my partners and we have real engineers on hand that are mechanical engineers, out of the 170 buggy builders in the USA I will bet you will not find 2 mechanical engineers working for all of them.

I can take any of you to ATV/Buggy builders in china all 318 of them and see crappy work being done but you don’t have to go to china to see it some of it,"it showed up here"

We offer services to all manufacturers here and around the world for all mechanical components maybe one day we will build cars or parts for you, you never know.

We have many new customers looking for us to make parts and more for them in this industry and several other industries,, business is business if we can not do it right we don’t want to do business it is that simple i can tell you that.

Come see me at the show I will buy you a beer there is enough business to go around for all. I truly wish all the best to all and we will see you at the show and in the Dunes, hell you can even tell me what i did wrong i have big shoulders.

[yoshi View Member Profile]

Understanding what you are saying i have not seen one of your cars to comment whether it is complete Junk or not either i do have experience with your competitors and they build fine cars the same as you i am sure, however i think i can pass Judgment when i see your car for the first time myself not based on opinions,,,,, you no what they say about opinions!

I will say, I appreciate your reasonable answers and would say don’t beat the new guy to hard I am sure the first 1- 10 cars anyone built including yourself had their far share of problems???

I do not think this would mean doing business with you would make you a bad guy or a bad company to do business with, the only way this would be true would be if you didn’t back up what you did with a warranty to your customer especially if they where design flaws or a bad selection in parts used.


Come see me at the show I will buy you a beer there is enough business to go around for all. I truly wish all the best to all and we will see you at the show and in the Dunes, hell you can even tell me what i did wrong i have big shoulders.

I wasn't excluding my rail in my comments either, people need to buy them and see them in person to form the best opinion. It's the greatest compliment when a customer gets to drive their car the first time and it exceeded their expectations, so they call just laughing, and they keep calling saying how happy they are with it.

Yes, my first cars had some bugs to be worked out, I'm actually still working a couple bugs outts small things, but they are mostly cosmetic now, and I am gonna take my knowledge over the last 3+ years of building and come up with a new design before too long that incorperates everything I wish I would have done different in the first generation. My biggest complaint with customers right now is their wait, I have some customers that have waited a long time for their rail, and I gave them discounts and great initial pricing but that doesn't make it right. I have just recently got production going good enough to get cars moving along pretty good so I can get caught up on back orders.


I don't offer a warrenty with my stuff, it's almost impossible to do with the brutality people are putting them through, but that doesn't mean I don't take care of my customers. My customers have my cell phone number, I said that even if it's 3 in the morning, if your having problems, call me, I would rather you wake me up and let me walk you through a problem than you to overlook something something small and cause a bigger problem. I've received called as late as 2 am so far and I always talk as long as they need. I also call them from time to time just to make sure they have no problems and if they have any suggestions for changes in the design, my customers are my best market research for what customers want, so I listen to them. I do stand behind my work, and I fix problems that I feel are my fault, or stuff that should have lasted longer if it were to have an issue. I try to build the rail so they don't need to do much maintence, even going so far as to start having steel sprocket built that cost me more, just so they don't wear out on my customers as quick. You really do have to take care of the customers after they have recieved their rail, shipping them and saying your on your own is a mistake made by a lot of people.

I had a customer forget to grease his axles and seezed them the first trip out, so I sent him so new ones, free, he paid for shipping to overnight them. I had another customer never check his rear limit straps, well, they stretched pretty far, and altho he heard a clicking for a few days, he never thought about it and finally one of the weld yokes gave on the wheel side and let loose. I had him pay for shipping and I fixed the axle for free. I also found a couple parts that during my destructive testing had a weak link if really really run hard, so I sent out all new parts to everyone that had the old stuff, and they weren't having any problems, one guy has 7 months on the rail with no issues but he doesn't abuse stuff like I do. I can take a rubber mallet and a crowbar, walk into the dunes, and come back with both broke, lol. If I find an issue, I send out new stuff before someone else does, I am the hardest on my rails, so I will prob. find stuff first.

I'll try to make it to the show this yeah, Federal Sandrail will have one of my rails there, and I am hoping to meet some other people. I get a long with builders great as long as they aren't arrogant ass's, lol. I don't drink, never have, but I loves me some gatorade, lol.

I don't know everything about everythng, I just know I like to overkill stuff. And for me, the thing I don't like about the rear lower shock mount on the trailing arm is that it is on an unbraced tube. There is nothng below it to keep it from eventually bending down which will do 2 things, camber the top of the wheel in, and possible hit the cv, once the wheel cambers in, the outter cv will see more angle and will brob. wear out pretty quick if over extended. Maybe it's stronger than it looks, but that is a long tube to not have bracing under it in the backside and I see that as a potential weak spot...



But it could be worse, you could build your trailing arms like this very known builder, lol..And this is on a full size car....



This post has been edited by yoshi: Jul 12 2007, 05:54 AM

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[b250r View Member Profile]

Be careful......check everything out ......If I can remember right this guy deals with cheep China junk....and for the record I purchased a "used name brand" car from him, and let just say he didn't mention that it had a bad tranny,...also it sure looks like a knock off of a popular "mini buggy"

just my .02......

I work in the electronics industry (semiconductors) and I don't like to hear about China. I know one day I will loose my job to this country.

This is my 2 cents.

[Frog Island View Member Profile]

It's in everyones best interest to keep thier money and purchases close to them. Buy local if you can. Veggies at the local farmers market. Buy from your local hardware store. Your car from the locally owner dealership. Buy from within your city, your state and your country first. If it's not available locally buy from wherever. But at least try to keep your money close. It helps you, your neighbor(jobs), your town(everyone prospers) and your country(stronger economy overall).

Not saying this to hurt the sales of some chineese buggy. Just saying what shouldn't need to be said.

[BLADERUNNER View Member Profile]

Members,

I saw Velocity's F1 Panther sandrail at the Extreme Motorsport Show and I think it is well built. I think it is also about 500lbs too heavy. It has many nice features and it is finished very nicely. I know that many of the parts that count are from the likes of Team Industry, Comet, GM Motor etc. I think we are all loosing sight of the fact that most products we buy today ar made outside of the USA. I spoke to the owner Eamon and the frame is made from the same materials that many American sandrails are made from (DOM 1018) except the frames are fabricated in China under in a factory he owns. I think if he made the his frames from Chromoly 4130 and lost a few tubes he could get this sandrail down to 1250lbs which is where it needs to be to be competative with US made sandrails like Tazcar. I would say the F1 is better built and engineered than most American built mini sandrails I saw at the show so I can understand Yoshi's concern. Yoshi, your sandrails are also a little heavy as well based on the specifications on your sandrails. Eamon, I would also suggest using CNC or JAMAR brakes and Fox or King Shocks. When someone is paying this type of money: $21,000.00 to $24,000.00 they expect name brand shocks and brakes etc. There are many new sandrails coming from China that are junk but their are now some larger cc sandrails that will give American sandrails a run for the money. American know how is in China so the sandrails are getting better every day. Just my two cents.

Bladerunner


I have been a member of this forum for a few years but could not remember my info so I registered again today

This post has been edited by BLADERUNNER: Jul 14 2007, 01:02 PM

[Irish Lad View Member Profile]

Members,

I saw Velocity's F1 Panther sandrail at the Extreme Motorsport Show and I think it is well built. I think it is also about 500lbs too heavy. It has many nice features and it is finished very nicely. I know that many of the parts that count are from the likes of Team Industry, Comet, GM Motor etc. I think we are all loosing sight of the fact that most products we buy today ar made outside of the USA. I spoke to the owner Eamon and the frame is made from the same materials that many American sandrails are made from (DOM 1018) except the frames are fabricated in China under in a factory he owns. I think if he made the his frames from Chromoly 4130 and lost a few tubes he could get this sandrail down to 1250lbs which is where it needs to be to be competative with US made sandrails like Tazcar. I would say the F1 is better built and engineered than most American built mini sandrails I saw at the show so I can understand Yoshi's concern. Yoshi, your sandrails are also a little heavy as well based on the specifications on your sandrails. Eamon, I would also suggest using CNC or JAMAR brakes and Fox or King Shocks. When someone is paying this type of money: $21,000.00 to $24,000.00 they expect name brand shocks and brakes etc. There are many new sandrails coming from China that are junk but their are now some larger cc sandrails that will give American sandrails a run for the money. American know how is in China so the sandrails are getting better every day. Just my two cents.

Bladerunner


I have been a member of this forum for a few years but could not remember my info so I registered again today

Thank you for your honest comments all very true.

The car has been lighten up a little and we have made a few changes you will see them at the up coming show, the car will come standard with BFG All Terrains and 15” VW pattern spun Alluminuim wheels the car will be available in Chromoly in the near future for people that wish to have a complete Chromoly chassis.

The reality of the situation is the customer can get CNC brakes and King or Fox shocks however it is an upgrade we do not have the profit you think in these cars to included these when the MSRP is 24k, it should be noted a similar built car here in the USA is $40,000 plus with all the same features with in reason and we have some features no one offers from the 24k base price.

The car is not built to compete with a custom made buggy or a large buggy it is built more to compete with a UTV modified or a guy buying to Quads hence not being the lightest car it is a dual sport to handle almost any environment with in reason.

We do offer upgrades of any preferred manufacturer components the upgrade is only the difference in what our cost is for our parts versus what we pay for the brand named parts maybe a few thousand or less to do what you are asking for selective parts pending customer requests we will credit out what we remove.

The stock parts on the car as built including the shocks and brakes have a 90 day warranty from the day the customer purchases the car the brand name I think has no warranty if so we can not offer it!

We also will have a 12 month warranty available as an additional upgrade on our car /parts by the show time frame, I can not consider offering a warranty on the brand name parts when infact the manufacturers don’t offer a warranty for the parts they make as I understand it,,, I could be wrong if they do then this warranty will be passed onto the customer!

It should be noted the brand name manufacturer that makes parts and resells to the buggy manufacturer can not warranty the parts for 12 months in some cases because they are not in control of the particular application their products are used on.

In our case we know of every application of the part based on our cars and we have made all extra heavy duty to stand up to a tough environment and application if anything they are over engineered based on the size of the car hence the weight with in reason.

My thought is we have 50 more HP then we need with the stock engine based on the torque output 155 foot Lbs. and 160 HP and the existing configuration 6 to 1 reduction box, the box has 300M shafts and hardened Chromoly gears that will handle 350 HP as well note it isn’t the lightest..

.
Having a little extra weight and the dependability out weigh the more fragile built and less torque for longevity in my opinion and you know what they say about opinions!
Torque is what will take you up the hill and spin the rear wheels off the car, having the Hp and limited torque will run good on the flats however.

A motorcycle engine has maybe 50 foot Lbs. of torque and was designed to move a motorcycle with a tire 6” wide, the torque is not their no matter what you do with the HP with in reason the gearing and the clutch system is limited to upgrade based on what is available as I understand it.

I do not have a lot of experience with these motorcycle engines I do know I owned one of these cars and I could have went either way when I set out to build this car and I choose the car engine for reliability, durability and availability and the automatic trans for gearing so anyone could drive the car with in reason.

If a customer wishes to go racing the automatic clutch Comet and Team and transmission will handle 350 hp if you upgrade the ecotec to 350hp it is quite painless at CBM Motor sports www.cbmmotorsports.com note when you go up to 350HP you also raise the torque as in 300 foot LBS I believe!

Note these engines are putting out 1100 HP from GM on the drag race circuit. http://www.gm.com/company/racing/technology/FWDEngine.htm
.
Hopefully I have answered all questions and thanks for all the input, good, bad and indifferent I have thick skin, we will hopefully see you at the show in September we will be with Prestige once again I think we will have 6 cars at the show.
We will release the small four seater version by December all going well.

[Irish Lad View Member Profile]

Be careful......check everything out ......If I can remember right this guy deals with cheep China junk....and for the record I purchased a "used name brand" car from him, and let just say he didn't mention that it had a bad tranny,...also it sure looks like a knock off of a popular "mini buggy"

just my .02......

I work in the electronics industry (semiconductors) and I don't like to hear about China. I know one day I will loose my job to this country.

This is my 2 cents.

Here is 3 cents worth, in the 1980s their where 2500 (PCB)Printed Circuit Board shops in the USA between the EPA and government regulations their where 700 PCB shops in business by 1997.

When everyone went and purchased their computers for $550.00 from Compac instead of $3500 from IBM we lost another 300 factories note these guys build the PCB boards that you put the semi conductors on.
The question is whose brand of computer are you using to type the e mail on and did you consider you might be putting yourself out of a job the day you purchased it!

If we all think globally we will all make money and due well, Starbucks fastest grown region in the world is china and you can stand in line for your $3.50 cent mocha in china “I have” just like you do at home note the cash profit goes back to the USA.

Mercedes number 1,2,3 dealerships in the world are in china they are still doing the final assembly in Germany and building parts in china for their cars.

GM builds cars complete in china and they are number 1 in china the profit/cash goes back to the USA.
They had a car show a few months ago Ferrari sold 38 cars at the show in two days note they only had 38 cars at the show the one they didn’t sell wasn’t for sale, Maybock sold 6 and their was over $100,000 million dollars spent in a week, guess what it is a world economy for all companies, at the show the majority of cars purchase where American as i understand it.

Although the semi conductor market is down in the USA because allot have moved off shore it doesn’t mean the revenue dollars are not flowing back to the USA the smart companies set up globally to compete in a global market. Look at Intel they are one of the biggest, they have plants in the USA, Ireland, china and God knows where else. Motorola, Xerox has done the same note all of these companies are American and the profit dollars flow back into the US economy.

My background was building PCB equipment Dev-Etch-Strip /Strip –Etch –Strip lines for 17 years in a previous life and buggies where a hobby, i have been around the world many times and visited PCB and Semi conductor plants all over the world most of the ones still in business in the USA have manufacturing plants else where in the world hence why they are still in business.

M flex in Anaheim California employed 400 people in the USA in the 1980s 20 years ago, Today they employee 800 in California and 13,000 in china the revenue flows back to the USA they build for Motorola and Apple if you gotten one of those new I-Phones from Apple you purchase it indirectly from M Flex or at least parts of it made in china and the USA.
Welcome to the world economy.

By the way I like your rail one of the nicest i have seen.

[yoshi View Member Profile]

Yoshi, your sandrails are also a little heavy as well based on the specifications on your sandrails.

My rail weigs 1250 pounds dry, I was shooting for 1200, but went a little over, and i'm gonna cut some of the weight down as I find areas to lighten that won't weaken the design. I gear the motors lower to pull off the line just as hard as the lighter rails, the only difference is the extra weight helps me soak up the bumps a little better....

A motorcycle engine has maybe 50 foot Lbs. of torque and was designed to move a motorcycle with a tire 6” wide, the torque is not their no matter what you do with the HP with in reason the gearing and the clutch system is limited to upgrade based on what is available as I understand it.

Stock busa has 184 base hp and 99 foot pounds of torque (bolt on turbo can get you 300, reliable hp with 175 foot pounds of torque, and with some motor mods can get 400 hp and over 200 foot pounds of torque fairly comfortable. I have heard of extremly high numbers as well, as much as 902hp for a street bike, drag application, but I wouldn't trust that to drive around the block, lol). The powerplant was designed to push a smaller, thinner tire, but lowering the gear ratio more than makes up for the dual and bigger wheels, and yes, even the double, and in my case, tripple weight of the stock busa bike (It's all about the gearing, a 5 hp briggs will pull a semi with no problems and no strain on the motor if geared right, it will be slow, but it will pull it. Most busa rails are running a 4.5:1 or 5:1 ratio, I weigh more, and want more pep off the line, so mine have a 5.5:1 and 6:1 ratio ratio and they will still break 130, which it will never see). If you ever get a chance, go for a ride in a busa powered rail ad you will be extremly impressed. Mine weighs 1250 dry, and I took a buddy for a ride that weighs 340 pounds, and even I thought the rail was gonna lug a bit with him in it, but it pulled just as hard as with a lighter passenger. I came up to some rough whoops and plowed through them at 100 mph. and it snapped my head into the back of the seat and never let up. Everyone expects the motor to lug but they are always surprised. There is a lot of low end torque and I never feel the motor is getting stressed, even when putting around or climbing up steep hills. There are ways to beef up the trnsmission and clutch if someone finds that necessary, a steel cutch basket, stiffer clutch springs, hell, I even figured out how to turn the motor into an automatic with a cvt and drop a bunch of weight, so maybe I will offer that someday, which puts the motor in it's ideal rpm range for any terrain..

here is my 2 Damn CENTS. I am drunk. Its my damn birthday, deal with it. (july 14th). I am so sick of people on these message boards, trying to be professional, but have stupid grammatical errors, so I am here to set it straight.

Two........ 2 (amount....when you should use two). More than one, less than 3)

too..........including (I am going to do that fat chick too)

to........... I am going to.... (I am going TO the damn store, to meet with your fat chick)

There. Look at the fat chick right there

Their. Their (as in those people's) fat chick is hitting on me

They're. They're going to try and pawn that fat chick off on me.

That is my lash out. Its my birthday, give me a break

Happy birthday two you man, sorry i'm to late, (a day I believe) but I could have been too days late, not just one...

Don't bash on the members in here, there doing the best thay can. Their are people that have really bad typing skills in other forums, at least it's not as bad as over they're huh?

This post has been edited by yoshi: Jul 15 2007, 05:28 AM

[BLADERUNNER View Member Profile]

Guys,

I think the Busa motor is a great motor for a mini-rail if you want to shift and I think Eamon is using a great motor for a CVT type sandrail. I personally think 1.5" tubing is overkill for a 120 to 130" long sandrail. There is no reason to go beyond 1.250 diameter .095 wall DOM 1020 or the same in Chromoly for any sandrail that is under 130" long. A .120 wall is good for the backbone of a sandrail in you want to make it a little stronger.
I like Chromoly 1" diameter x .120 wall tubing for A-Arms and Trailing Arms. I also like Uniballs instead of heims and Chromoly Bungs instead of tabs. I think CVT sandrails are great for trails and 4 or 5 speeds are good for sand. I know that Busa are known for blowing 2nd gear and that is an expensive fix. I think China or Mexico will one day take over the sandrails industry for anything under $30,000.00. These sandrails will have many American components and be designed by Americans but the labor and parts is where the savings will be. I live and work in Southern California and the cost of labor, workmans comp and lack of skilled workers (who actually want to come to work each day) makes building sandrails an expensive item to make in the USA.

I personally get fed up hearing that everything from China is junk. Just ask Walmart. Over 90 percent of what is sold in Walmart is from China. Walmart actually encourages you to go to China to have your product built. I went to China recently on vacation and I was shocked at what I saw. The world has beat a path to China and they are building factories as fast as they can can. At the end of the day, more money is made by the importer and retailer than is made by the guy who has the factory in China so more jobs are created in the USA as a result of manufacturing the product that is made off-shore. If you made it in the USA you could not make a decent profit or maybe no profit at all. Yoshi you said your cost was more than Eamon was sellling his sandrails for and I agree but I have to assume Eamon is making a profit. So this proves my point because based on what Eamon has written, his sandrails are as well built as yours. He even offers a better warranty.

The trick is figuring out what you want to sell and then start importing it. That is were the real money is!

Good Luck to all

Bladerunner

This post has been edited by BLADERUNNER: Jul 16 2007, 06:06 AM

[Dirtywhiteboy View Member Profile]

Good thread guys. I have to hand it to a guy that packs up a frame and shocks and seats and everything else he needs and flies with it to China to build a product cheaper to compete in a Rhino market. Then offers you a 4 cylinder with LT suspension cheaper than a top heavy 660cc toy out of....where....Japan. It's a shame they are not lighter, but if sales in the dual sport market are not there, shave off a ton of weight and market it to the sandrail industry. Maybe a stripped down dune model race prepped. However I don't think that will happen before this.
Joyner, I know it's a piece of crap...but, they have knocked off a full size Sandrail Fabricators car and have it in China as we speak being copied piece for piece. It will be shipped back to the US for the install of a 2D Transmission and a crate motor LS2. Wiring looms will be plug and play, etc. This will change the market as we know it for buggy manufacturers. What I am writing is fact. They have already purchased the trannies and are getting ready to launch. Sorry Eamon to share this news, but a 2d with an LS2 in the 30k's is going to be hard to pass up. All parts will be shipped here for identical replacement parts, just like the Panther F-1, but they will be marketing to the adreneline junkies like me, that have a need for cheaper speed.

[yoshi View Member Profile]

I know that Busa are known for blowing 2nd gear and that is an expensive fix.

Not just busa's, streetbike motors have a tendency to blow out second in sand purposes and the reason is the jump from 1st. over neutral to second is bigger and it's easier to miss or slam into it funny, gearing mine lower makes first almost useless, second is really my first and I bypass the jump which helps with the second gear issue considerably...

Sorry Eamon to share this news, but a 2d with an LS2 in the 30k's is going to be hard to pass up. All parts will be shipped here for identical replacement parts, just like the Panther F-1, but they will be marketing to the adreneline junkies like me, that have a need for cheaper speed.

There will always be knockoffs, and there will always be people willing to pay for good stuff. There are a lot of import mini's out there, but I still get calls for rails as do my competition. I don't think the lower priced stuff effects me, if someone wants a mini rail 10k cheaper than what I sell for, they weren't gonna buy from me anyway, so I did not loose a customer, and the people that have the money want quality and aren't trying to find the cheapest thing possible, so they spend more money to have a better product.

I'm not saying I have the best product on the market, nor am I saying it's indestructable, but I know for a fact what kind of abuse mine can take, and if you put me behind the wheel of any import on the market, and let me drive it the way I have driven mine, I am pretty sure I would find any weakness pretty quick. I don't baby stuff around, I ride at redline all day long, stop for gas, and love to jump anything I can find and blow though whoops back to back for hours on end at 100mph. If someone thinks they have a good knockoff, lemme test it out for a weekend and we can see wether or not my rail (or any of my reputable competition) is worth the extra 10k, cause I know how many weekends I have been out with no issues. I did blow up one motor in just over 3 years of building, but the thermostate got stuck, and I replaced that motor for the customer on my dime even though I don't warranty motors. And I don't even wanna get into my issues with the transworks box last year, but I use the best reverse box on the market now and i've not heard of one person blowing them up, even with turbos and I know a lot of them that are out there...

[Irish Lad View Member Profile]

Good thread guys. I have to hand it to a guy that packs up a frame and shocks and seats and everything else he needs and flies with it to China to build a product cheaper to compete in a Rhino market. Then offers you a 4 cylinder with LT suspension cheaper than a top heavy 660cc toy out of....where....Japan. It's a shame they are not lighter, but if sales in the dual sport market are not there, shave off a ton of weight and market it to the sandrail industry. Maybe a stripped down dune model race prepped. However I don't think that will happen before this.
Joyner, I know it's a piece of crap...but, they have knocked off a full size Sandrail Fabricators car and have it in China as we speak being copied piece for piece. It will be shipped back to the US for the install of a 2D Transmission and a crate motor LS2. Wiring looms will be plug and play, etc. This will change the market as we know it for buggy manufacturers. What I am writing is fact. They have already purchased the trannies and are getting ready to launch. Sorry Eamon to share this news, but a 2d with an LS2 in the 30k's is going to be hard to pass up. All parts will be shipped here for identical replacement parts, just like the Panther F-1, but they will be marketing to the adreneline junkies like me, that have a need for cheaper speed.

Thanks for the info I understand their are several people trying to build large cars in china however it takes time to do it right, Joyner can pull it off however if they put their mind to it the only problem with Joyner is the reputation they have out their with most people that have purchased and or dealt with Joyner.

The real world is building buggies is not rocket science as most would like to make you believe hence why every guy with a welder building cars in California.

The smart builder will look at what the world market is and wake up and smell the beans and if he is to be in business long term he will have no choice but to consider moving off shore with a least some form of product line.

If you take the top five builders and you can purchase a car that they designed and they built and over seen the production off shore and warranty the car in the USA and it was 3-5k more then Joyner would you buy the car knowing the builders reputation I think we all no the answer.

The point being the smart builders need to consider off shore manufacturing, putting your head in the sand will not make Joyner or anyone go away this is reality.

We do not wish to build big cars for ourselves at this point however building them is easy give me 12 weeks and I could build it that is reality not BS.

The marketing and sales plan for velocity is to stay with small cars for now however we will do contract manufacturing for anyone provide it make good business sense and is profitable for all.

The main problem in china is you can not had your car or drawings to anyone if you do they will build your car for some one else when you are not watching hence why we built our own factory American owned and managed.

Joyner has sold thousands of buggies how many people said they will not make it three years ago when the entered the market how many where wrong.

[Irish Lad View Member Profile]

Good thread guys. I have to hand it to a guy that packs up a frame and shocks and seats and everything else he needs and flies with it to China to build a product cheaper to compete in a Rhino market. Then offers you a 4 cylinder with LT suspension cheaper than a top heavy 660cc toy out of....where....Japan. It's a shame they are not lighter, but if sales in the dual sport market are not there, shave off a ton of weight and market it to the sandrail industry. Maybe a stripped down dune model race prepped. However I don't think that will happen before this.
Joyner, I know it's a piece of crap...but, they have knocked off a full size Sandrail Fabricators car and have it in China as we speak being copied piece for piece. It will be shipped back to the US for the install of a 2D Transmission and a crate motor LS2. Wiring looms will be plug and play, etc. This will change the market as we know it for buggy manufacturers. What I am writing is fact. They have already purchased the trannies and are getting ready to launch. Sorry Eamon to share this news, but a 2d with an LS2 in the 30k's is going to be hard to pass up. All parts will be shipped here for identical replacement parts, just like the Panther F-1, but they will be marketing to the adreneline junkies like me, that have a need for cheaper speed.

Thanks for the info I understand their are several people trying to build large cars in china however it takes time to do it right, Joyner can pull it off however if they put their mind to it the only problem with Joyner is the reputation they have out their with most people that have purchased and or dealt with Joyner.

The real world is building buggies is not rocket science as most would like to make you believe hence why every guy with a welder building cars in California.

The smart builder will look at what the world market is and wake up and smell the beans and if he is to be in business long term he will have no choice but to consider moving off shore with a least some form of product line.

If you take the top five builders and you can purchase a car that they designed and they built and over seen the production off shore and warranty the car in the USA and it was 3-5k more then Joyner would you buy the car knowing the builders reputation I think we all no the answer.

The point being the smart builders need to consider off shore manufacturing, putting your head in the sand will not make Joyner or anyone go away this is reality.

We do not wish to build big cars for ourselves at this point however building them is easy give me 12 weeks and I could build it that is reality not BS.

The marketing and sales plan for velocity is to stay with small cars for now however we will do contract manufacturing for anyone provide it make good business sense and is profitable for all.

The main problem in china is you can not had your car or drawings to anyone if you do they will build your car for some one else when you are not watching hence why we built our own factory American owned and managed.

Joyner has sold thousands of buggies how many people said they will not make it three years ago when the entered the market how many where wrong.

[cartwrencher View Member Profile]

Good thread guys. I have to hand it to a guy that packs up a frame and shocks and seats and everything else he needs and flies with it to China to build a product cheaper to compete in a Rhino market. Then offers you a 4 cylinder with LT suspension cheaper than a top heavy 660cc toy out of....where....Japan. It's a shame they are not lighter, but if sales in the dual sport market are not there, shave off a ton of weight and market it to the sandrail industry. Maybe a stripped down dune model race prepped. However I don't think that will happen before this.
Joyner, I know it's a piece of crap...but, they have knocked off a full size Sandrail Fabricators car and have it in China as we speak being copied piece for piece. It will be shipped back to the US for the install of a 2D Transmission and a crate motor LS2. Wiring looms will be plug and play, etc. This will change the market as we know it for buggy manufacturers. What I am writing is fact. They have already purchased the trannies and are getting ready to launch. Sorry Eamon to share this news, but a 2d with an LS2 in the 30k's is going to be hard to pass up. All parts will be shipped here for identical replacement parts, just like the Panther F-1, but they will be marketing to the adreneline junkies like me, that have a need for cheaper speed.

Thanks for the info I understand their are several people trying to build large cars in china however it takes time to do it right, Joyner can pull it off however if they put their mind to it the only problem with Joyner is the reputation they have out their with most people that have purchased and or dealt with Joyner.

The real world is building buggies is not rocket science as most would like to make you believe hence why every guy with a welder building cars in California.

The smart builder will look at what the world market is and wake up and smell the beans and if he is to be in business long term he will have no choice but to consider moving off shore with a least some form of product line.

If you take the top five builders and you can purchase a car that they designed and they built and over seen the production off shore and warranty the car in the USA and it was 3-5k more then Joyner would you buy the car knowing the builders reputation I think we all no the answer.

The point being the smart builders need to consider off shore manufacturing, putting your head in the sand will not make Joyner or anyone go away this is reality.

We do not wish to build big cars for ourselves at this point however building them is easy give me 12 weeks and I could build it that is reality not BS.

The marketing and sales plan for velocity is to stay with small cars for now however we will do contract manufacturing for anyone provide it make good business sense and is profitable for all.

The main problem in china is you can not had your car or drawings to anyone if you do they will build your car for some one else when you are not watching hence why we built our own factory American owned and managed.

Joyner has sold thousands of buggies how many people said they will not make it three years ago when the entered the market how many where wrong.

Thanks but I'll keep my money in the U.S.

Sending money out to foreign countries only hurts us.

[Irish Lad View Member Profile]

I know that Busa are known for blowing 2nd gear and that is an expensive fix.

Not just busa's, streetbike motors have a tendency to blow out second in sand purposes and the reason is the jump from 1st. over neutral to second is bigger and it's easier to miss or slam into it funny, gearing mine lower makes first almost useless, second is really my first and I bypass the jump which helps with the second gear issue considerably...

Sorry Eamon to share this news, but a 2d with an LS2 in the 30k's is going to be hard to pass up. All parts will be shipped here for identical replacement parts, just like the Panther F-1, but they will be marketing to the adreneline junkies like me, that have a need for cheaper speed.

There will always be knockoffs, and there will always be people willing to pay for good stuff. There are a lot of import mini's out there, but I still get calls for rails as do my competition. I don't think the lower priced stuff effects me, if someone wants a mini rail 10k cheaper than what I sell for, they weren't gonna buy from me anyway, so I did not loose a customer, and the people that have the money want quality and aren't trying to find the cheapest thing possible, so they spend more money to have a better product.

I'm not saying I have the best product on the market, nor am I saying it's indestructable, but I know for a fact what kind of abuse mine can take, and if you put me behind the wheel of any import on the market, and let me drive it the way I have driven mine, I am pretty sure I would find any weakness pretty quick. I don't baby stuff around, I ride at redline all day long, stop for gas, and love to jump anything I can find and blow though whoops back to back for hours on end at 100mph. If someone thinks they have a good knockoff, lemme test it out for a weekend and we can see wether or not my rail (or any of my reputable competition) is worth the extra 10k, cause I know how many weekends I have been out with no issues. I did blow up one motor in just over 3 years of building, but the thermostate got stuck, and I replaced that motor for the customer on my dime even though I don't warranty motors. And I don't even wanna get into my issues with the transworks box last year, but I use the best reverse box on the market now and i've not heard of one person blowing them up, even with turbos and I know a lot of them that are out there...

Hey no one said you built a bad rail I sure the quality is great and i am sure it is worth 10k or 20k or more. If the customer has it to spend as I said I am not competing with the custom builder that is not where our market is at this point.
I think I explained all of this, I also no very little about motorcycle engines although I own a few Italian Bikes. The ecotec works fine for our application and what we set out to do that doesn’t mean what you do doesn’t work i am sure it works fine for your car...

[AlpineSandToys.c... AlpineSandToys.com View Member Profile]

No offense, but I'll try and buy American made products as much as possible. It's what's best for the future of our Country and our kids.

I'm sure there will be plenty of people out there that'll buy your car, the price is attractive and it may be as much as they can afford.

I don't particularly care for the fact you seem to be OK with taking a chasis or a shock that someone else designed and probably spent a LOT of time and money with R&D to get it right.....only to have someone in China take it apart, duplicate it and then sell it for less. That, to me, is BS....

I don't forsee us having anything done in China, and I don't think we're putting our "Head in the sand" in not doing so. The majority of the stuff I've bought that was made in China was of poor quality. I'm sure there are things out there that are made in China that are of good quality....I just haven't seen much of it.

[BLADERUNNER View Member Profile]

No offense, but I'll try and buy American made products as much as possible. It's what's best for the future of our Country and our kids.

I'm sure there will be plenty of people out there that'll buy your car, the price is attractive and it may be as much as they can afford.

I don't particularly care for the fact you seem to be OK with taking a chasis or a shock that someone else designed and probably spent a LOT of time and money with R&D to get it right.....only to have someone in China take it apart, duplicate it and then sell it for less. That, to me, is BS....

I don't forsee us having anything done in China, and I don't think we're putting our "Head in the sand" in not doing so. The majority of the stuff I've bought that was made in China was of poor quality. I'm sure there are things out there that are made in China that are of good quality....I just haven't seen much of it.

King SandCars,

If you speak to James Mills, the former owner of Sonic, he claims you are building his sandrail. You must admit your sandrail look alot like a Sonic sandrails. I guess you guys were partners at some time. I personally do not care. I am sure you made some improvements. All I am saying I think most sandrails on the market today are just a derivative of many other sandrails. I think it is a huge insult to lump all the sandrails from China into one lump. If you ask Joyner what their sandrails are made from you will most likely not get an answer. Joyner sells their sandrails to dealers and also dumps them at Auction for less money than their own dealers can buy them for wholesale. That is just not a good business practice. They just do not have a good reputation with their dealers from what I have heard. They are also overpriced and there are better designed and engineered sandrails on the market for way less money from China. Joyner's sandrails already cost too much so I would not be too worried if I were Eamon about what they bring out next. I remember when I was a kid (30 years ago) and everyone said that anything from Japan was junk. What would them same people say now?

China is very capable of building as good a sandrail as anything you have ever seen from the USA but it will take a while before they get market share, but trust me they will. China already builds BMWs, GM Cars, Hondas, Toyotas, Suzuki etc in China today. Suzuki now builds all their car engines in Japan so building a sandrails with the right management is a walk in the park with the right know how and materials. I personally like good brakes like Jamar or CNC and shocks from Fox or King if I pay over $20,000.00 for a sandrail. If I like a sandrail's design and the frame is made from DOM 1018 or 1020 or Chromoly 4130 and the welds are good and the suspension geometry is right, Ackerman is correct and King Pin inclination is correct then I see nothing wrong with a product from China. I do prefer name brand engines and transmissions with Chromoly CV joints and axles. I see some new sandrails coming from China that have VW engines so I am sure the parts are available in the USA.

Right now I am going to stay with my single seat with a 650cc 100hp Honda engine. With the real-estate market taking a dump in California and no more 3 percent loans, mini-sandrails under $20,000.00 I think are going to rule the day in the near future, at least until the real-estate market turns around. Good Luck to you all.

Bladerunner

[cartwrencher View Member Profile]

No offense, but I'll try and buy American made products as much as possible. It's what's best for the future of our Country and our kids.

I'm sure there will be plenty of people out there that'll buy your car, the price is attractive and it may be as much as they can afford.

I don't particularly care for the fact you seem to be OK with taking a chasis or a shock that someone else designed and probably spent a LOT of time and money with R&D to get it right.....only to have someone in China take it apart, duplicate it and then sell it for less. That, to me, is BS....

I don't forsee us having anything done in China, and I don't think we're putting our "Head in the sand" in not doing so. The majority of the stuff I've bought that was made in China was of poor quality. I'm sure there are things out there that are made in China that are of good quality....I just haven't seen much of it.

[Gearhead View Member Profile]

I dont think mini cars from china will ever rule the day. To many people prefer very custom cars, and many of us like to either build our own from scratch or from the chassis up. This is a hobby after all, and I dont care how good the deal is, there will always be people that like to take pride in their own work, and customize it to fit their needs.

[Irish Lad View Member Profile]

No offense, but I'll try and buy American made products as much as possible. It's what's best for the future of our Country and our kids.

I'm sure there will be plenty of people out there that'll buy your car, the price is attractive and it may be as much as they can afford.

I don't particularly care for the fact you seem to be OK with taking a chasis or a shock that someone else designed and probably spent a LOT of time and money with R&D to get it right.....only to have someone in China take it apart, duplicate it and then sell it for less. That, to me, is BS....

I don't forsee us having anything done in China, and I don't think we're putting our "Head in the sand" in not doing so. The majority of the stuff I've bought that was made in China was of poor quality. I'm sure there are things out there that are made in China that are of good quality....I just haven't seen much of it.

No offense taken, If you never look at what is out their in the global world your are right buying American is a good idea,I try to buy American when ever i can provided the quality is good nd cost compeditive.last year Yamaha sold 45,000 Rhinos which American company built a car to go after this market cost competitively?

Toyota just became the largest supplier on the world market for building cars they offer a 100k warranty on the majority of their products.

The USA population is 300 million the world market is 6.5 billion I think it would be crazy for anyone not to acknowledge there is a mighty big world out their and a mighty big market for any product USA made or off shore made.

If I built the car we are building in the USA it would cost $40,000 plus what is the market for a $40,000 2 seat buggy with good quality?

Note the American made builders do not offer a warrenty on the parts or the car with in reason?

The majority of stuff I have purchase in the USA from China was junk in my life time I still went to china to see why, the answer was simple some American importer went to china and told the supplier he wanted the part made for the best price and at the end of the day he got it!

In most cases these Americans are brokers not engineers they are looking for the product with the highest perceived value and the lowest cost we have fellow Americans that do this in the USA however when the product comes from china it is blamed on the Chinese not the American that imported the Junk and demanded the lowest price this is the reality of the situation.

I have a good friend of mine building injector nozzles for Bowing aircraft here and for F15, F16 fighter jets he was qualified by the US government the nozzle could not be made in the USA the quality and inspection procedures made the parts cost prohibitive in the USA to make with Americans their was a company in Poland that could make the part however it was not American owned. note he is an American what is it he did wrong?

With regards to what we copied or didn’t I do not think our car looks like anyone else’s with in reason however you can only build a buggy so many ways, I think everyone is guilty of looking at some one else’s ideas and making improvements I am sure you did yourself.
Today as I understand it there are 160 plus builders five years ago maybe 30 I guess a lot of people copied someone with in reason are they all closing their business because they where caught?

Shocks I do not know who the original designer was of any of them I do no there are five brands in the USA and they all of the same form and function with in reason some even look the same should the last four guys fold up their tent because they are guilty of copying the first guy.

I understand not every one will approve of what my logic is or opinion however I see the world market differently then selling 10 or 30 cars a year and there is opportunity for all in the USA and around the world I just happen to be the guy under the microscope this week.

I truly respect your idea of employing Americans I think we do that now and if we could compete with Yamaha one day we would be employing a hole lot more however if we don’t dream big we have nothing to shoot for!

I truly wish the best for all I thing the market is changing all over the world as a few people have commented earlier in this thread I think these guys are more traveled in life and around the world they don’t necessarily like what they see but that is life, the internet has made the world market a trading place

[letsgo2glamis View Member Profile]

[quote name='BLADERUNNER' date='Jul 15 2007, 10:28 PM' post='2369570']
[quote name='King Sand Cars' post='2369470' date='Jul 15 2007, 09:08 PM']

Right now I am going to stay with my single seat with a 650cc 100hp Honda engine. With the real-estate market taking a dump in California and no more 3 percent loans, mini-sandrails under $20,000.00 I think are going to rule the day in the near future, at least until the real-estate market turns around. Good Luck to you all.

Bladerunner
[/quote]
dont flame me for this question, im 21 and dont know everything about politics and economics, but how does the real estate market reflect the sandcar market?

[yoshi View Member Profile]

dont flame me for this question, im 21 and dont know everything about politics and economics, but how does the real estate market reflect the sandcar market?

For a while there, lots of people in Cali were refinancing their homes when the value went way up and they got big loans with very little intrest, as low as 3 percent, so people were able to go out and spend 100k+ on toys and not be paying sh*t for it in payments. Business was up for sandrails and anything else that sold something that was wanted but was previously too expensive...

This post has been edited by yoshi: Jul 16 2007, 11:47 AM