Mods and Admins Online

[wesinls View Member Profile]

I have a Hayabusa in my buggy and it uses a chain tensioner (shown in pic) that is very noisy. It has an aluminum roller instead of urethane which I was told is to prolong the life of the roller. What kind of roller do you other guys use? If its an aluminum like mine, is it noisy as well? Should I switch to a urethane type?

Thank you!

Attached File(s)

 untitled.bmp ( 551.77K ) Number of downloads: 314

 

[rocketpower View Member Profile]

I have a Hayabusa in my buggy and it uses a chain tensioner (shown in pic) that is very noisy.  It has an aluminum roller instead of urethane which I was told is to prolong the life of the roller.  What kind of roller do you other guys use?  If its an aluminum like mine, is it noisy as well?  Should I switch to a urethane type?

Thank you!
[right][snapback]1372808[/snapback][/right]

Yoshi is the man to ask, Look at some of his threads, he builds a Kick A$S machine

[GREATSCOTT View Member Profile]

urethan is pretty strong and is used on many motorcyles as a chain tensioner as well as sliders, the aluminum causes pre-mature wear on the plates and rollers of most motorcycle chains. The urethan rollers are pretty cheap, you can get them from White Bros. for about $15.00, just try it and if it goes out, believe it or not a nylon skateboard wheel is more durable than those rollers.
Was about 6 years old and lost the urethan roller on my XR75, took a wheel off my skateboard and 25years later it's still on there.

[wesinls View Member Profile]

Funny story about the skateboard wheel! Well I just got off the phone with SandBullet and the guy said I sholdnt of received the aluminum roller and that they will be sending me out the "plastic one". Which I'm assuming is urethane.

[Carl P View Member Profile]

I'm looking at using Delrin. It's somewhere between the urethane and the aluminum. Acetal is the official plastic name.

Carl

This post has been edited by Carl P: Jan 18 2006, 08:34 AM

[jmorgan View Member Profile]

Is that a newer Sandbullet? I thought they would of changed the chain tensioner by now. That is how my uncles car was and the tensioner did not work to well. He ended up cutting it off and making it where it pulled the chain towards the rear sprocket. It works a lot better now.

As for the roller we use nylon rollers. They still make noise, but it is not too bad and they last about a season.

[The Rooster View Member Profile]

I'm looking at using Delrin. It's somewhere between the urethane and the aluminum. Acetyl is the official plastic name.

Carl
[right][snapback]1373674[/snapback][/right]

Personally, I would not use Delrin. Yes, it is hard, but it will get chewed up in almost no time because it doesn't flex like Urethane. Hard Urethane is extremely durable chit.

Also, in Wesinls picture, it appears like the roller is really close to the rear sprocket. This may cause binding and premature wear of any roller material and the wear out the rear sprocket too.

Attached File(s)

 untitled.jpg ( 551.77K ) Number of downloads: 7

 

[Carl P View Member Profile]

I agree that Acetal is hard , but if you research the properties and durometers, it's more impact absorbant then the harder urethanes. And it's easier to machine.

Urethanes are poured and the possibility of air pockets and poorly mixed additives will increase the possibility of chunking. Acetyls are pressure injected. This advice was from a materials engineer from Port Plastics.

Delrin Acetal

""Product Properties Sheet""

Product Catagories

Bearing and Wear
Acetal
General Purpose

Acetal Rod and Slab
High mechanical strength and rigidity
Excellent wear resistance
Low coefficients of friction
Low moisture absorption

Excellent dimensional stability

FDA, USDA, 3A and NSF compliances
Good temperature resistance
Standard Grades Available:

Delrin 150 SA natural

Delrin 550 SA natural

Delrin 150E Bk 602

Delrin 507 black

Delrin 570

Ensital
Applications:
Gears
Bushings
Bearings
Rollers
Timing screws
Manifolds
Washers
Value bodies
Wear pads and many other industrial machine parts


In addition, you can get it with Teflon and increase the natural lubricity and that will lessen the impact abrasion %.

Carl

This post has been edited by Carl P: Jan 18 2006, 08:33 AM

[yoshi View Member Profile]

Yoshi is the man to ask, Look at some of his threads, he builds a Kick A$S machine
[right][snapback]1372839[/snapback][/right]

thanks for the compliment.....



I agree that the tensioner is too close to the sprocket. Also, the bigger the roller, the better. Don't use the urethane rollers. They are not meant to be tensioners and there is a big difference. I put one on my rail and it literally lasted just long enough to get through the gate to the dunes. It ripped all the urethane off and left the bearings. I let the chain slide across the bearing races for the rest of the weekend so it wasn't a wasted 4 hour trip to the dunes. Also, the bearings are pretty cheap in the urethane rollers. I build my own. I bought a 2 inch tube of teflon, stuck it in my lathe, and machined the inside down to house 2 big arse bearings for a 5/8 inch bolt. This stuff is pretty damn strong and quiet. Works great for me but I haven't run it on a busa powerplant yet. I don't see any reason it wouldn't hold up though. I'm building a busa 2 seater right now and I will let you know how it holds up.




This post has been edited by yoshi: Jan 18 2006, 08:55 AM

Attached File(s)

 tensioner.jpg ( 177.38K ) Number of downloads: 22

 

[yoshi View Member Profile]

another option is a smaller sprocket. I used this at first. I switched to the urethane roller because I thought it would be quieter. Unfortunatly I switched it right before I left for the dunes and didn't test it first. When I got back I bought the teflon and haven't had any problems since........

[wesinls View Member Profile]

Thanks for all the info...Hopefully I will get the "plastic" one from Sandbullet before this weekends trip...If so, I will post my results. And yes this is a new sandbullet, got it about 3 months ago. I was told the sprockets, chain, and roller last between 1 and 3 years, depending upon my driving...

[AlpineSandToys.c... AlpineSandToys.com View Member Profile]

This is our old set-up....we've eliminated the roller completely. But this was still a pretty quite set-up.

Attached File(s)

 DSC00368.JPG ( 717.21K ) Number of downloads: 29

 

[wesinls View Member Profile]

This is our old set-up....we've eliminated the roller completely.  But this was still a pretty quite set-up.
[right][snapback]1376298[/snapback][/right]

How do you adjust the chain without a roller?

P.S I live near alpine, any chance I can come buy one of those cooler racks??

[The Rooster View Member Profile]

I agree  that Acetal is hard , but if you research the properties and durometers, it's more impact absorbant then the harder urethanes. And it's easier to machine.

Urethanes are poured and the possibility of air pockets and poorly mixed additives will increase the possibility of chunking. Acetyls are pressure injected. This advice was from a materials engineer from Port Plastics.

Delrin Acetal 

""Product Properties Sheet""

Product Catagories

Bearing and Wear
Acetal
General Purpose

Acetal Rod and Slab
High mechanical strength and rigidity
Excellent wear resistance
Low coefficients of friction
Low moisture absorption

Excellent dimensional stability

FDA, USDA, 3A and NSF compliances
Good temperature resistance
Standard Grades Available:

Delrin 150 SA natural

Delrin 550 SA natural

Delrin 150E Bk 602

Delrin 507 black

Delrin 570

Ensital
Applications:
Gears
Bushings
Bearings
Rollers
Timing screws
Manifolds
Washers
Value bodies
Wear pads and many other industrial machine parts


In addition, you can get it with Teflon and increase the natural lubricity and that will lessen the impact abrasion %.

Carl
[right][snapback]1374442[/snapback][/right]

Carl,

Ask your materials engineer about UHMW (Ultra High Molecular Weight plastic). This stuff is also called 'Poor man's Teflon'. In applications where Delrin is too hard and simply breaks, this stuff absorbs impacts great and is also self-lubricating like Teflon. It is a little more difficult to machine because the chips are a bit stringy (like tearing apart a plastic 6-pack holder), but not that big of a deal.

[ChuckZilla View Member Profile]

I've machined many materials talked about in this thread and would rate them this way.

Nylon..Like UHMW, but not as slippery. Strong stuff. A little gummy when being machined.
UHMW...Good for high wear as long as contact surfaces are not of the gouging type. Harder than Nylon, but probably not as strong.
Delrin...Of the softer plastics, it's great for machining into somewhat close tolerance shapes, has decent wear properties, not sure about impact resistance.
Teflon...Slippery like UHMW, but much softer, probably takes impact better than UHMW but will deform and loose shape in an abusive setting.
PVC....Hard and very machinable, prone to chipping.

[AlpineSandToys.c... AlpineSandToys.com View Member Profile]

This is our old set-up....we've eliminated the roller completely.  But this was still a pretty quite set-up.
[right][snapback]1376298[/snapback][/right]

How do you adjust the chain without a roller?

P.S I live near alpine, any chance I can come buy one of those cooler racks??
[right][snapback]1376600[/snapback][/right]

That my friend....is a secret that will soon be out, some may have seen it in a red car this last weekend. If I told you now, I'd have to kill you... Very trick set-up and no noise

On the cooler rack, the guy custom designed them for our cars...but he'd do one for you, just need the angle on your floor pan, how high you want it off the pan...stuff like that. They aren't cheap, he machines them out of a solid block of aluminum....he charges in the $120 range, but with round stock aluminum he drops the price quite a bit. If you're still interested PM me your number and I'll hook you two up.

[Carl P View Member Profile]

I've machined many materials talked about in this thread and would rate them this way.

Nylon..Like UHMW, but not as slippery. Strong stuff. A little gummy when being machined.
UHMW...Good for high wear as long as contact surfaces are not of the gouging type. Harder than Nylon, but probably not as strong.
Delrin...Of the softer plastics, it's great for machining into somewhat close tolerance    shapes, has decent wear properties, not sure about impact resistance.
Teflon...Slippery like UHMW, but much softer, probably takes impact better than UHMW but will deform and loose shape in an abusive setting.
PVC....Hard and very machinable, prone to chipping.
[right][snapback]1376723[/snapback][/right]

Very good! Thanks!

I was told by two local plastics suppliers, that DELRIN is UHMW Acetal from DuPont. Delrin is their trade name . But you can get DELRIN with PTFE blended in. It's softer and more expensive and has less temperature tolerance.

Nylon was said to be too brittle.

Carl

[ChuckZilla View Member Profile]

"delrin is UHMW" Hmmmm............I can't argue this. Delrin in sheet form is slippery like UHMW. I've machined both black and white delrin extensively and never really took the time to think about the similarities of the two. In my work setting Delrin seemed to be less translucent than UHMW and a little firmer. UHMW has a kind of icey almost clear look but mostly white appearance whereas Delrin is more solid in it's whiteness. It would not surprise me one bit to find out that the two are very close to the same exact compound. Nylon is fiberous, and seems like a pretty tough material, kind of under utilized in my mind, but I'm not an engineer or materials expert.

[jmorgan View Member Profile]

King is you new set up like the Sonic Sand Cars where the whole bearing carrier moves? I've never talked to anyone that has their car, so I don't know how well it works. From the looks of it, I think it would work well.

[yoshi View Member Profile]

I'm switching over to an adjustable bearing carrier starting with the 929 single seater project. I'm setting up a triangle pattern with 3 sprockets and 2 chains. The motor sprocket goes up to a bigger sprocket, than down to a 4.25 inch sprocket bolted behind the 4.25 inch 930 cv. I'm setting the upper bearing carrier to be tensioned up to tighten all 3 sprockets at the same time. By doing this I get more travel in 2 ways. 1, I can set the cv's down right above the bottom of the rail and 2, I can make a shorter bearing carrier on the bottom which will make the axels longer. I can set the distance up between the inboard 2 cv's about 4 or 5 inches apart. I will gain 5 inches of travel alone by dropping the cv down from it's current position in the middle of a 14 inch diameter, 70 tooth rear sprocket. Maybe another inch or so by moving the inboard cv's in closer to each other.

[The Rooster View Member Profile]

"delrin is UHMW" Hmmmm............I can't argue this. Delrin in sheet form is slippery like UHMW. I've machined both black and white delrin extensively and never really took the time to think about the similarities of the two. In my work setting Delrin seemed to be less translucent than UHMW and a little firmer. UHMW has a kind of icey almost clear look but mostly white appearance whereas Delrin is more solid in it's whiteness. It would  not surprise me one bit to find out that the two are very close to the same exact compound. Nylon is fiberous, and seems like a pretty tough material, kind of under utilized in my mind, but I'm not an engineer or materials expert.
[right][snapback]1377008[/snapback][/right]

Delrin is certainly NOT UHMW. Delrin is very hard (harder than nylon) and smells like Elmer's white paper glue when you machine it. UHMW has hardly any smell and is very tough, but not nearly as hard.

Comparing the different plastics to metal goes something like this:

Nylon = Cast Iron. Hard and brittle. Care needs to be exercised so it doesn't crack while maching (I ejected a few parts out of the lathe when this chit cracked on me trying to be too aggressive, but I thought, hey, it's only plastic--OOPS!).

Delrin = 4130. Hard and tough but will crack somewhat if smacked with a hammer.

UHMW = Copper. Soft and malleable. Smash it with a sledgehammer all day and it will only leave you tired.

That my friend....is a secret that will soon be out, some may have seen it in a red car this last weekend.  If I told you now, I'd have to kill you...   Very trick set-up and no noise

On the cooler rack, the guy custom designed them for our cars...but he'd do one for you, just need the angle on your floor pan, how high you want it off the pan...stuff like that.  They aren't cheap, he machines them out of a solid block of aluminum....he charges in the $120 range, but with round stock aluminum he drops the price quite a bit.  If you're still interested PM me your number and I'll hook you two up.
[right][snapback]1376975[/snapback][/right]

Hey King,

Are you talking about a bearing carrier similar to the old Honda Fourtrax 250R? IIRC, you loosen up a few pinch bolts and rotate an eccentric carrier to move it back slightly to take up the chain slack.

Attached File(s)

 housing_h10.jpg ( 30.56K ) Number of downloads: 5

 

[Carl P View Member Profile]

Thanks Philabuster,
I always thought that UHMW is a dense Polyethylene. That has a lower temp stability than Acetal.

Either way, the point being that there are many more, and better materials to make a chain guide roller out of than an old skateboard wheel.

After all, we DO have opposable thumbs!!

Is this a great place or what!!


Carl

[AlpineSandToys.c... AlpineSandToys.com View Member Profile]

King is you new set up like the Sonic Sand Cars where the whole bearing carrier moves?  I've never talked to anyone that has their car, so I don't know how well it works.  From the looks of it, I think it would work well.
[right][snapback]1377783[/snapback][/right]

NOOOO!!!! not like the Sonic set up . This one works

[AlpineSandToys.c... AlpineSandToys.com View Member Profile]

"delrin is UHMW" Hmmmm............I can't argue this. Delrin in sheet form is slippery like UHMW. I've machined both black and white delrin extensively and never really took the time to think about the similarities of the two. In my work setting Delrin seemed to be less translucent than UHMW and a little firmer. UHMW has a kind of icey almost clear look but mostly white appearance whereas Delrin is more solid in it's whiteness. It would  not surprise me one bit to find out that the two are very close to the same exact compound. Nylon is fiberous, and seems like a pretty tough material, kind of under utilized in my mind, but I'm not an engineer or materials expert.
[right][snapback]1377008[/snapback][/right]

Delrin is certainly NOT UHMW. Delrin is very hard (harder than nylon) and smells like Elmer's white paper glue when you machine it. UHMW has hardly any smell and is very tough, but not nearly as hard.

Comparing the different plastics to metal goes something like this:

Nylon = Cast Iron. Hard and brittle. Care needs to be exercised so it doesn't crack while maching (I ejected a few parts out of the lathe when this chit cracked on me trying to be too aggressive, but I thought, hey, it's only plastic--OOPS!).

Delrin = 4130. Hard and tough but will crack somewhat if smacked with a hammer.

UHMW = Copper. Soft and malleable. Smash it with a sledgehammer all day and it will only leave you tired.

That my friend....is a secret that will soon be out, some may have seen it in a red car this last weekend.  If I told you now, I'd have to kill you...    Very trick set-up and no noise

On the cooler rack, the guy custom designed them for our cars...but he'd do one for you, just need the angle on your floor pan, how high you want it off the pan...stuff like that.  They aren't cheap, he machines them out of a solid block of aluminum....he charges in the $120 range, but with round stock aluminum he drops the price quite a bit.  If you're still interested PM me your number and I'll hook you two up.
[right][snapback]1376975[/snapback][/right]

Hey King,

Are you talking about a bearing carrier similar to the old Honda Fourtrax 250R? IIRC, you loosen up a few pinch bolts and rotate an eccentric carrier to move it back slightly to take up the chain slack.
[right][snapback]1378040[/snapback][/right]

I cannot confirm or deny yet...but you're getting real close. I'll post some pics when I can

[The Rooster View Member Profile]

I cannot confirm or deny yet...but you're getting real close.  I'll post some pics when I can
[right][snapback]1380724[/snapback][/right]