I keep seeing posts and topics about Pass prices for next season. Does anyone have REAL WORD about the new, if any, prices? Yeah, yeah, you HEARD from the BLM or a Sheriff friend SAID. But does anyone have verification of any changes? New passes are available October 1st. Thast's when the current passes expire. 6 weeks to go and no official word?

That's right, no official word yet.

This business plan was originally being pushed through too fast so we were getting the bum's rush and the quality proved it. BLM higher-ups have forced the process to slow down so there aren't so many glaring problems with it.

We want it right or not at all, that's for sure.

Bottom line is, no official word on the price of passes yet though. Nothing has been decided, nothing is in stone.

Vicki

I'll be sure to buy mine before any price hike!

Word has it from a guy on the inside a old high skool buddy that works out there said it was gonna be 160..

QUOTE

Word has it from a guy on the inside a old high skool buddy that works out there said it was gonna be 160..

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

QUOTE

Word has it from a guy on the inside a old high skool buddy that works out there said it was gonna be 160..

I've heard as low as $45 and as high as $200.

Unless the friend of a friend is Neil Hamada, Greg Thomsen, Linda Hansen or Jeff Casey, I wouldn't go with it.

And at this point, even if you hear it from one of those four, everything is subject to change until it is sent to the printer, and we're a long way off from that.

Vicki

Sounds like everyone should make a run out on Oct 1 and by passes. It seems they will be sitting on their hands a while longer.

You know it isn't the price of the pass that bothers me. If it is 45 dollars or 160 thats not the problem.
The real problem will come if the passes do go way up in price. The problem will be all of our windows will be smashed in while the little punks steal our passes. There is still the theft element out there and not only will we have to worry about the cost of our pass we'll have to worry about our obviously displayed invitation in our viechles. Hopefully if the price does go up they will assign it per license plate. just an idea.

good point ! I never really thought of that. I hope that the powers that be will listen to good suggestions like yours.

QUOTE

You know it isn't the price of the pass that bothers me. If it is 45 dollars or 160 thats not the problem.   The real problem will come if the passes do go way up in price. The problem will be all of our windows will be smashed in while the little punks steal our passes. There is still the theft element out there and not only will we have to worry about the cost of our pass we'll have to worry about our obviously displayed invitation in our viechles. Hopefully if the price does go up they will assign it per license plate.  just an idea.

GOOD POINT. I never thought about it that way! :!:

[quote]You know it isn't the price of the pass that bothers me. If it is 45 dollars or 160 thats not the problem.
The real problem will come if the passes do go way up in price. The problem will be all of our windows will be smashed in while the little punks steal our passes. There is still the theft element out there and not only will we have to worry about the cost of our pass we'll have to worry about our obviously displayed invitation in our viechles. Hopefully if the price does go up they will assign it per license plate. just an idea.[/quote]

we have to worry about the cost of our pass we'll have to worry about our obviously displayed invitation in our viechles. Hopefully if the price does go up they will assign it per license plate. just an idea.[/quote]

Maybe some kind of a card you could put into one of the machines and have it print out a dated permit like they do now, but can only be used once per person per 7 days. Have an PIN number set up so even if someone steals the card it will be worthless

[quote][quote]You know it isn't the price of the pass that bothers me. If it is 45 dollars or 160 thats not the problem.
The real problem will come if the passes do go way up in price. The problem will be all of our windows will be smashed in while the little punks steal our passes. There is still the theft element out there and not only will we have to worry about the cost of our pass we'll have to worry about our obviously displayed invitation in our viechles. Hopefully if the price does go up they will assign it per license plate. just an idea.[/quote]

we have to worry about the cost of our pass we'll have to worry about our obviously displayed invitation in our viechles. Hopefully if the price does go up they will assign it per license plate. just an idea.[/quote]

Maybe some kind of a card you could put into one of the machines and have it print out a dated permit like they do now, but can only be used once per person per 7 days. Have an PIN number set up so even if someone steals the card it will be worthless[/quote]

Thats a pretty good idea...

It sounds like a good idea, and I don't want to pee in anyone's post tosties... but...

Cost... cost... cost...
All of that will COST MONEY... MY MONEY...

Vor

I agree with VOR, COST COST COST.

Besides, If I tow the trailer out with the truck instead of the moho, and it's per license plate then I got to buy two.

$30 is too much as it is. Eff the fee demo. I'm not playing by their rules if the cost of a permit goes over $30 bucks. The rangers are caught between a rock and a hard place when they try to collect this money and I feel for em but I'll be damned if I'm going to pay any more for stuff I don't want, don't need, and didn't ask for.

As a side note, I highly doubt the fee will be over $100 for a season pass. What rec. area do you know of that is that expensive?

plenty of the MX/ATV parks here in Pa charge well over $100 for a season pass.....

Copper I agree with you about the possible problem if you drive more than one veichle. "IF" we get to that point all we have to do is register the pass or a card to "personal" or multiple per person allowing one or the other to be out, veichles or trailers/motorhomes. The problem is easily resolved. The pass price probably wont even be an issue but if it is we will have a real security problem.

lets not try to figure out the logistics for the blm :evil:

[quote]Copper I agree with you about the possible problem if you drive more than one veichle. "IF" we get to that point all we have to do is register the pass or a card to "personal" or multiple per person allowing one or the other to be out, veichles or trailers/motorhomes. The problem is easily resolved. The pass price probably wont even be an issue but if it is we will have a real security problem.[/quote]

The TRT recommended the pass price to be $25/week and under $100/season. When I referred to those prices during a conversation with Neil Hamada he corrected me, informing me that the contractor is recommending $180 for a season pass and that the TRT is just one recommendation. He went on to say the BLM would make the final decision.

One of the comments the BLM received after the first version was that they should trim the fat from their budget, which would of course drive down the cost of the passes.

They did trim the fat... about $2.5 million.

But they did not lower the recommended price for the passes.

As for the second pass issue. The contractor and BLM had many examples from which to choose and they based their decision on a notoriously bad example, rather than a few that actually work. Using the bad example they are able to justify eliminating a second pass option.

Vicki

[quote]plenty of the MX/ATV parks here in Pa charge well over $100 for a season pass.....[/quote]

These would be on private land, maintained and groomed on a regular basis with concession stands and bathroom facilities nearby correct? I'm almost posative their insurance will have made it mandatory for medical aid to be on the premesis at all times during hours of operation also so there is that. They would undoubtedly have the facilities for washing the mud and muck off your ride before you left like our parks here.

Glamis has pit bathrooms. Whoopee. :evil:

I don't want any of that stuff. I want to pay nothing more than my green sticker fees to use my public land. Will hikers have to buy a pass? :rant:

The TRT might agree that $100 is alright to charge for a season pass but I don't! $25 for a weekend? EFF that![img]http://members.lycos.nl/smilieweb1/smilies/Boos16.gif[/img]

Damn! Give them an inch and they wanna take your freakin family jewels![img]http://members.lycos.nl/smilieweb1/smilies/Boos15.gif[/img]

[quote]The TRT might agree that $100 is alright to charge for a season pass but I don't! $25 for a weekend? EFF that![img]http://members.lycos.nl/smilieweb1/smilies/Boos16.gif[/img]
[/quote]

Then find your TRT rep and tell them that. If you're a member of an organization, tell them too.

Vicki

Who the hell are the TRT to suggest $25 a week?

Unacceptable...

I've read the second Business Plan. It's just as arrogant & ill-conceived as the first. Where's the Non-holiday season pass ? I thought the plan was to redirect usage away from crowded holiday weekends. Where's the second-vehicle add-on ? BLM says a second-vehicle pass is impractical. HAH, just put a BIG serial number on each pass, add a tear-off stub on the bottom with the same BIG serial number. The main pass goes in the RV & the second stub goes in the second vehicle. The "stub" is not valid without the main pass in attendance. When they check for compliance (& they damn well better) you check the corresponding numbers. $180 a season is outrageous. And based on 50% compliance ? Why do I have to subsidize the half that doesn't pay ? Budget fee rates at 90% compliance & if BLM can't meet that compliance then the BLM doesn't need the dough ! Where's the plan for a "wilderness" area (& I don't mean some damn interpertation area to commune with the eco-nazis) where I can go with my self-contained RV, bring my own water supply, my own toilet facilities, haul out my own trash, ride in peace on my green-stickered ATVs, & not bother anyone else ? Why do ALL the dune areas have to have toilets, wash stations, roads, etc. ? If such an area was designated as "no-amenities camping" & a lesser pass fee charged, I gaurantee it would be a popular choice. Let the "asphalt" campers pay for the pavement. Don't charge me for extras I don't want, or need. There's nothing in this plan to lower prices only to spend & add if there's ever a surplus & we all know there is never a surplus in government spending. It's just SPEND, SPEND, SPEND ! BS !!!! The dunes are a wilderness. No roads, no toilets, no snackbars, no wash stations, no turnstiles, no amenities... JUST SAND ! No sand organization should support this business plan. That includes publicizing, selling, collecting, & rationalizing this crap as anything but the blatant rip-off it is ! Sorry about the rage, but I'm fed up with this CRAP !!!

Well said Mug :beer:

[quote]Who the hell are the TRT to suggest $25 a week?

Unacceptable...[/quote]

It has been drummed home to me that the members of the TRT are the only true voices between the duners and the BLM.

So when they say yes to the business plan, they are saying it on your behalf.

How many people have contacted their TRT representative over this?

Well, get your banners and signs ready, because from what I understand the TRT and most of the OHV groups are supporting this business plan. Yes, the support comes with some exceptions, one of them being a suggestion of $25/week, $100/season passes... and because the BLM has promised to be "flexible" with this plan. Maybe that's enough for some people.

DUNERS has pushed from the beginning to approach this plan with caution and do not let the season dictate the quality of the plan. Put it off another season if necessary to achieve a better plan.

I'm having trouble believing it myself, but it even seems instead of screaming for the train to STOP until we can all get aboard, there is a push to have a plan, any plan, out and in place by the start of the season.

Thank goodness this is directly contradictory to what Linda Hansen, BLM California Desert District Manager promised at the last OHV leadership meeting and during several telephone conversations. And thank goodness Mike Pool, State BLM, has also committed (in writing), to a more sensible approach to the completed plan, or else we might be stuck with what is surely a defective product at this point in time just because the hour grows late.

PLEASE, I ask you, I beg you, DON'T TAKE MY WORD FOR THIS.

Question the leaders of the organizations to which you are a member. Question your representatives on the TRT. If you are told by one of those leaders or by your TRT representative that what I have posted here is not true, please share it with the public. And don't accept less than the word from someone at the top of your food chain or what you hear may have lost something in the translation.

I hope I'm wrong. I hope what I've heard is not true even though what I've heard comes directly from some of those leaders. Maybe if enough of you question them their minds can be changed. I hope you do question your representatives and that they publicly deny what I've heard with my own ears.

Vicki

I feel like the oil companies speculating that fuel prices may go upto 3.50 a gallon



and really they bump it upto 2.75
Its a reprive :roll:

Approaching this plan with "Caution" won't get it...
There needs to be full on, complete REFUSAL TO ACCEPT this plan by all OHV groups.

There is intimidation, threats, outright lies, circumnavigation of the law, misrepresentation of facts, twisting of statistics and in general a complete lack of concern/care for the PUBLIC in this document.

I will activly oppose ANY OHV group which supports this plan even a little bit.

QUOTE

There needs to be full on, complete REFUSAL TO ACCEPT this plan by all OHV groups.

That's not going to happen. Not even close.

Vicki

And why not?
This plan is underhanded and full of backstabbing. It is not based on facts. The numbers are pulled out of thin air.

Since I haven't ponied up the cashola to have the priveledge of reading the "Duners" message board, why don't you fill us in? What is DUNERS going to do about this?

QUOTE

\"Several issues come into play when discussing compliance and enforcement.\" ! The penalty/fine is not a sufficient deterrent; it is too low. ! Penalty/Fine is not a sufficient deterrent is another legitimate concern. However, California Vehicle Code §38301 requires compliance with federal regulations and carries a higher fine than do the federal codes—instruct the qualified LEOs to cite violators under this law. BLM staff should also work with the appropriate court systems to update appropriate collateral bail schedules.

This is an OUTRIGHT INSULT. The FEDERAL LAW allows for a fine of up to $100 for failiur to pay Demo Fee. The BLM doesn't think that's high enough so they plan on BYPASSING the federal law.

This is the BLM GUNNING for YOU, the Dunes users...

If you support this plan then you support giving the BLM the authority to pretty much slap any fine on you they wish. You can see by their statements in this plan that they don't care about law. Their only concern is bilking you out of your hard earned money.

And you had better believe I have some lawyers working on this RIGHT NOW!

QUOTE

Since I haven't ponied up the cashola to have the priveledge of reading the \"Duners\" message board, why don't you fill us in? What is DUNERS going to do about this?

You must be thinking of another BBS. It costs NOTHING to register as a user on our message board.

Never has.

Vicki

QUOTE

What is DUNERS going to do about this?

Letters
Phone calls
Faxes
Emails
Meetings

We're trying to get the facts to the people in authority. But I have to tell you, it's not easy... when you have much larger groups going to those same people and voicing their support of this plan, the people in authority point to them and say "see, they think it's fine."

There are two ways of approaching this plan... or just about any situation.

One is to wait until it is final and then make a public statement about it, whether that statement is "we support it" or "we don't like it." Either way, once something is final, even if it is "flexible," it's still final. Like those awful grants last December, supported under protest. "Under protest" just doesn't seem to be strong enough these days. Still, that is one approach, accepted by many. *shrug*

The other way is to get in the middle of it. When you get wind of something that smells bad, scream and yell and nag and work as hard as you can to get it changed. Leave a paper trail of protest so that if and when, in spite of facts and common sense the powers ignore the screams and shouts, and the thing still smells bad when it's final, continue the fight with a perfect example of corruption and deceit in your hands.

One is reactive.

The other is proactive.

But perhaps reactive is better. It's worked so well all these years, you'd think I would have learned from it by now.

Vicki

Membership at the DUNERS BB nets you a bunch of "Welcome to DUNERS" messages. All discussions apparantly are held in a "private" "Members only" forum.

What larger groups are supporting this bullcrap?
I've yet to see an official "endorsement" of this and I have conflicting reports about what the TRT is doing.
I really want to know because I'll be there, bitchen at them too.

Vor

QUOTE

Approaching this plan with \"Caution\" won't get it... There needs to be full on, complete REFUSAL TO ACCEPT this plan by all OHV groups. There is intimidation, threats, outright lies, circumnavigation of the law, misrepresentation of facts, twisting of statistics and in general a complete lack of concern/care for the PUBLIC in this document. I will activly oppose ANY OHV group which supports this plan even a little bit.

This can happen and should happen. There is no reason why you have to accept the plan, even a small portion of it. It's not a good plan. Lots of people are being told that the TRT supports it and they automatically think it will pass. Maybe if the TRT got their heads out of their ***** and told people they don't have to accept any part of this plan, the majority would see the truth and not be lulled into taking the lesser of the two evils. I don't want either evil. Why would the TRT agree with charging that kind of cash, in essance, trippling or even quadrupleling the current cost of a season pass? >:<

QUOTE

Membership at the DUNERS BB nets you a bunch of \"Welcome to DUNERS\" messages. All discussions apparantly are held in a \"private\" \"Members only\" forum.

Silly VOR... why do you say such things that can so easily be proven to be otherwise? Okay, so we may not be very thrilling over there, but there are more discussions on the public forum than in private.

And like here, you don't have to join to read the posts. But you do have to register if you want to respond. Say, isn't that also how it's set up here? The difference between this board and any attached to the various organizations is there is no membership because GlamisDunes is not a membership organization (phew, say that 5 times fast).

The membership organizations that have message boards send out messages when people register for their BBS because the average user sometimes gets confused about being a member of a message board versus being a member of an organization.

By the way, here's the main one on the DUNERS BBS about the business plan... pretty much what is being said all over but anyone's welcome to look:

http://www.hostboard.com/duners/ubbthreads...sb=5&o=&fpart=1

Everyone who has visited that board knows we don't have hardly any fluff over there and it appears to be by design. People have tried to lighten things up and it always goes back. There are a lot of other message boards where people can go for entertainment... ours is not one of them. Oh well.

Yes, there are private areas where things are discussed that should be kept out of the public eye... strategy mostly and some of the more controversial subjects. Kinda like the moderator forum here. And speaking of here, before DUNERS had a message board we were offered space here to hold private discussions if necessary... seems it's done all over, because several other message board administrators made that offer as well.

Vicki

QUOTE

I really want to know because I'll be there, bitchen at them too. Vor

Then don't ask me, ask THEM. You've seen the forum on the other board about what was agreed to by the TRT. The TRT represents YOU.

I don't know what organizations you are a member of, if you're a member of any of them. If you are, you oughta be talking to the ones in control and making your wishes known. Publicly.

Vicki

QUOTE

Why would the TRT agree with charging that kind of cash, in essance, trippling or even quadrupleling the current cost of a season pass?  >:<

ASK THEM. Please. We'll compare notes... see if you get a different answer.

Vicki

Well, my appologies. I'm sorry I didn't see a DISCUSSION in the ANNOUNCEMENT forum. All I saw was a thread explaining how MEMBERS should be able to see a PRIVATE forum, once their MEMBERSHIP was authorized.

Why do I need motivation? Why does there always have to be some underlying motivation? All I said was that I wasn't a PAID member of DUNERS and therefore was APPARANTLY not able to see the discussions.

QUOTE

QUOTE We're trying to get the facts to the people in authority. But I have to tell you, it's not easy... when you have much larger groups going to those same people and voicing their support of this plan, the people in authority point to them and say \"see, they think it's fine.\" QUOTE Then don't ask me, ask THEM. You've seen the forum on the other board about what was agreed to by the TRT. The TRT represents YOU.

You're the one who said "when you have much larger groups going to those same people and voicing their support of this plan..."

Which groups???
I've already said my peace in the TRT forum.
I am going to attempt to do the same in the DUNERS forum.
Next will be on the ASA board...

and any other place I can find. So... you said that larger groups are supporting this plan... Which ones? so I can go there.

QUOTE

So... you said that larger groups are supporting this plan... Which ones? so I can go there.

Uh huh. Not this time. You ask the question and see what answer you get. Or don't. It's up to you.

Start with those groups of which you are a member and work your way through. Ask one. Ask them all. I hope the leaders of them all publicly say "she's nuts, we want it thrown out."

You don't need me to help you find out... do it because you want to make sure which ones are NOT supporting it. None of this "Vicki says..." stuff.

Maybe they'll change their minds when someone besides "Vicki says."

I sure hope so.

Vicki

:devil: Does any of you out there camp someplace other than Glamis on the weekends? Well if you do you would know that depending on the campground or state park....you pay $13 a night for just a camp spot and upwards of over $20 a night for full hook up....So Glamis is considered state property correct....you should count your self lucky if it is just $25 for a weekend. Now I don't believe in the high prices just playing the Devils advocate so don't yell at me.....Just a thought.

Also remember its not that they don't want us there cause its job security for the BLM its that there are people out there who don't follow the rules of pack it in pack it out.....We camp at the same spot every time and we always pick up our trash....but just riding past others, man are some of you pigs!!!! Its those people who throw bottles in the sand and fire and trash everywhere who are causing this rate increase. Just like the thiefs in the world that cause prices to go up in stores....its called inflation folks. You don't like it do something about it. Call and get involved. Confront the people who trash the land, if you see a pop can pick it up bring it back to camp and throw it in the trash....don't just wait for designated clean ups to do it! GET INVOLVED!!!! :devil:

Well said pitts!

:mrgreen: Thanks! I just can't stand the whiners who complain about everything yet do nothing to stop it!!!

Pits,
While I respect your opinion, it's not quite that simple. For starters, Glamis (ISDRA) is public land, not private land. Each and every one of us who pay income tax have paid more then our share for the support and upkeep of the public's land.
The income tax method is tried and true. It takes into account ones ability to pay (graduated tax schedule).
Secondly, congress has been very careful about giving out "Taxing" authority to federal land management agencies. They know all too well how easily a federal agencie could misuse this authority (as is being shown with the current Business Plan for the ISDRA).
Thirdly, Glamis is not a campground. It is a primitive dune wilderness. It needs no "improvements". It can make due on a significantly smaller budget.
Finally, the BLM has NEVER shown any aptitude for managing it's budget. Now you want to give them the ability to tax users themselves?

Few points you missed Pits.

Glamis is Federal land not state land.

Other areas have fees but they also offer yearly fees which are lower than the suggested weekly fee for the Dunes.

The BLM has their job security - they have to be there to manage the land whether it's recreational use or wilderness. In fact it's easier for them if it's wilderness and no one is allowed there so for them job security does mean running off the "pesky offroaders" since they actually make the BLM do some management instead of sitting and counting the flowers.

The BLM also would not have such a problem getting money if they had been doing their job since day one. They have repeatedly messed up their job of management and all of the remedies they come up with harm recreational users.

They didn't do enough monitoring of the land - so they lock out recreational users.

They didn't do a good enough job of enforcing the rules - so they made more rules to enforce which suddenly made law breakers out of law abiding duenrs.

They don't track their money well enough to know where it's spent - so they charge people more money to make up for the money they can't track.

No matter how bad of a job of management the BLM does they always resort to the same solution - screw the user. We can still sit here and count plants even if they don't visit.

And to elaborate on what VOR mentioned, we are both moderators on this site and have been for years, spending much of our free time helping educate people through this site. Between the two of us, we have been to ASA meetings, DAC meetings, protests, and all manner of other bbs's. We have been involved in letter campaigns and phone calls with people who supposedly can make a difference. We have seen none of this get back any land that has been taken away and speaking for myself, I'm a little tired of "doing the right thing" and "going through the proper channels".


Pitts: You've been a member of this website for 5 whole months. Why do you assume that the people that are being the most vocal are not doing anything? You haven't been involved with us enough to know what we do.

Your welcome to say anything on this bbs but assumptions and untruthes will get ripped apart as I take offense at someone telling me I've done nothing.

Ben

wow you guys didn't get anything I said....Did you read the subject. I was playing the Devils Advocate. I too agree the fees are bogus. I am just saying that we need to do something about it.

You two are absolutely right on every point! But I also had valid points! I was in the wrong on the state vs. federal land. I never once aimed anything at either of you directly so don't throw it at me!! I was just trying to get people to think and question authority, thats it!!!

And what does my time with this board have to do with anything? I can't be a part of something if I wasn't posting on the board from the beginning? Come on we are all on this site for the good of Glamis! I think that we are getting off track by making stabs at one another! Instead of jumping to conclusions lets educate instead of b!+ch and moan!!

When you encourage people to think your inviting a revolution!!!!

On the contrary, I got everything you said. I know what you were trying to do. What you also did is pointed fingers at the "bitchers and moaners" who need to "stop complaining and do something". Reading back through the thread, VOR and myself have been the most vocal. Surely you didn't mean everyone else but us?

The time you've spent on the board doesn't mean you can't be a part of it. That is why I mentioned no one was stopping you from posting. However, if you assume something about someone in this particular thread, because of your lack of experience on this board, it might be wrong and in the case of VOR and myself, it was.

QUOTE

I think that we are getting off track by making stabs at one another! Instead of jumping to conclusions lets educate instead of b!+ch and moan!!

Isn't this what you just did, if not to VOR and myself, then to someone?

your right! I apologize!
I truly didn't mean to point fingers that was not my intention. I was hoping to get the people out there who read in silent and don't post to stand up and think and do something! Isn't it about bringing everyone together for the good of Glamis and the fun times we have there?
I guess I should have posted on the other forums where people are complaining about it. I just saw people on this one who care about the cause and got a little carried away!

Some very good points. There is something that Slap feels perty strongly about, and that is "Slap counting hisself lucky" to pay only $25.00 for a weekend to see his favorite place. Slap had no problem with the $30.00 yearly pass, leave as is, enforce the laws that are in place, and leave her a wilderness area.

Exposing the wonders and beauty of Glamis to the people who recreate or just want to know about her is a deep passion and pleasure for Slappy. Heck, Slap has introduced hundreds of folks to Mother Glamis, some who will never step foot on her, yet they loooove what is happening here at GD.com and what Slap's whole purpose is. The smile that you see from a child when you tell them the story of the Grizzled Groff of Glamis is priceless, yet at the same time you are educating them about the Dune Evening Primrose and the flight of the Sphinx Moth, and that leaving trash only hurts the Sphinx Moth and Ms. Fox. You'll be surprized the reaction kids have when they hear that Ms. Fox may leave them if that happens. Yes, they get the picture, and it works.

Feel Lucky? Nope, they should feel lucky to have Slappy and the GD.com family around to bring to life what she actually stands for and what she means to us all, something you definitely know about pits :wink: .