So this topic has been on going as to which is stronger the E or the 2D. Please Take a look at the poll and select your MD whether it is the E or the 2D. DOes some one know how to copy the Last posts on page 4 and page 5 to here?

I hope the 2d is stronger. I bought it with intentions of going turbo on my 3.5 honda. From what I've read its seems like maybe I made a mistake.

We are in the same EXACT boat.........

yeah, and now it looks like I have to spend even more for a upgraded nose cone............... Its never ending. lol

Just got off the phone with my builder and he told me that there were alot of main bearing failures in 2d's when they started using different amounts of balls in the ball bearing. That was about 2 years ago. He said the more the balls in the bearing the more failures he started seeing, so he went back to using the age old 8 bearing (I think he said 8 bearing). He said it just didn't make sense that the 4e were outlasting the 2d because the 2d's are using a much stronger bearing shell. He also mentioned that ALOT of 4e's are using the 2d bearing upgrade, said he only builds his e box's that way.
It may just be that folks who think because they spent 7500.00 for a tranny they can thrash on it...
Anyways, just an FYI.

Said the funco nose cone uses a tapered bearing and he really hasn't seen it do much good. He said the transworks nose cone he is still in the air about. They use a mitsubishi bearing or something and it looks promising but the verdict is not out.
Just passing along some facts, don't shoot the messenger anybody......

That is about what we have been seeing, I am working on the History of the mainshaft bearing history so you guys can get a little insight into it, the conclusion though was that out of everything we tried, the CX11 bearing gave the best service life.

Legit: I think your statement holds water conciously or sub conciously some people have that mentality.

The 2D is stronger in Every aspect, we just want to get to the bottom of why people feel that the E is stronger. I think the anwer lies in the numbers.

The 2d is stronger on paper.

The "E" is a better trans. Sorry! Nothing will ever change my mind on that.

I have a 3.5 non turbo Honda in my 2500 lb desert car. It has a 2D by Jeff Fields at Transaxle Engineering. I have had no problems, this is season 2 on the car, 930 cv's and 35" Baja T/A's on BTR beadlock wheels, midboard hubs, 300m axles 34" long, I have all the items necessary to blow up this trans, and its o.k. so far, the only thing that is really missing is H.P. Maybe that is the accelerator for the bearing failures, H.P.

Maybe we should take a pole on trans builder vs. failures, maybe we can find a common thread.

I still don't know how to ID a 2d from a 4e from the exterior other than the price tag.
Victor, do you have pictures, serial numbers???

See where the rear nose cone bolts to the main body of the case?
The 2d is much thicker there. Makes it a bit longer than a 4e.
Hope mendeola doesn't mind me posting their pics.

They look exactly the same, just a different shifter setup?????

OK, I see it now!

If you know your gearing that may help to figure out what box you have..........there are some e box main shaft gears that aren't available for the 2d and vice versa. I found this out when I upgraded from an e to a 2d
I upgraded because I broke 3rd gear in my e box and the 2d has 50% wider gears

You're missing 2 ingredients.


Torque, and load. I have a Northstar engine in a car estimated to weigh 2400 or 2500 lbs. Because of the torque, I tend to leave it in 2nd gear and just lug it if I get slowed down climbing a hill in the sand. With 4 people in it and a steep hill, the low rpm lugging puts enormous stress on the mainshaft bearing due to the helical gears. So my particular driving style, along with torque, weight and steep hills tends to eat mainshaft bearings faster than most people.

My tranny was built with the 7 ball bearing, then the 10 ball bearing, then the 11 ball bearing was installed and it lasted only 6 days. My understanding is that the industry tried the 7 ball bearing, the 8 ball, then a 10 ball then the 11 ball and finally back to the 8 ball bearing after it was discovered how weak the 11 ball was. This is according to Eric at Transworks. I had one of the first Transworks nosecone upgrades performed, and it lasted 2 yrs. I had it rebuilt due to the R&P failing, and he discovered slight piting in the bearing race, so he replaced it, but I'm very happy with the results. It lsted 2 full yrs and was not the reason for the rebuild.

How 'bout everyone list their gear ratios to see if there is something there.

3.08, 2.44, 1.60, 1.35................5.43 r/p

2.90-2.08-1.60-1.14 ----- 5:14 R&P
1612 LBS
31" Eliminators
375ish HP to wheels
6750 redline

These were the numbers I gave my builder to set up my trans.

Good Idea Put up your gear ratios, vehicle weight, tire size, HP, and your motor RPM at shift point. I will run them through the gear calc and then save them I will try to email them out if you email me @ Victor@mendeolatransaxles.com....Lets find the commmon ground.

Also Remeber that most tranny builders replace mainshaft bearings out of habit, if it starts making a little noise, it is letting you know, if its bad 3rd and 4th gears will be hard to find. Also since the gear boxes are solid mounted in a "tunning fork" noises will be amplified.

Socal: that is what I was trying to say, V8's tend to be lugged more becuase of the awesome torque, but it takes its toll on the gears and bearings. This is why I mention Duty Cycle....

how do you know what your GR is?

Should be on your build sheet/invoice.
If not, the only way is too open her up.

There is no doubt that builder error can play a part in some of the failures. Rancho built my transaxles and some of the questions they had before they built it for me were... 1. What size rear tires 2. What motor torque and hp 3. How heavy was the car 4. What kind of terrain was I going to be driving. I think all of that plays a big part in building a transaxle that will last. I can only say from personal experiences, for myself and about 20 other cars that I duned with (of those, 6 or so had e boxes), the ebox was FAR superior over the 2d. Ive built 9 cars from ground up (5Funcos(2 with Northstars 2 with LS1s and 1 with Subaru), 2 Buckshots(1 with 550hp LS1 1 with stock LS1), 1 Swift Performance Subaru and 1 Prowlers Rotary) and Ive always said that 2ds should be installed with effin wing nuts!!!! The ONLY problem Ive EVER had with an Ebox is a broken reverse gear. Personally, I dont need any more proof.

I am rebuilding a older 2-d , probably 5 yr old ,still has the VW input shaft and the customer does not want to upgrade to G-50, and the trans looks almost perfect internally. Needs syncro rings and the reverse idler has cracks. It will get new cx11 ms bearing, syncro rings, seals and a reverse idler and thats about it. What Im babling about is the only thing the early 2-d and the e-box have in commen is the input shaft. Is it possible the smaller diameter of the input shaft absorbes the shock loads that are killing some m/s bearings? I have multiple basic e-boxes(113 style carriers with early style m/s bearings) that are still going after 4-5 yrs?!?

Victor, when I spoke with Ian at the SSSS he mentioned Weddle was selling a slightly more expensive Porsche main bearing as an option. He said it was a zero tolerance bearing, meaning the bearing ball circumference is a perfect mate to the inner and outer race radius, providing more strength. This means the inner race is a two piece affair. Do you know anything about those bearings, and if so...have you had any reports back?

My 2D is 5yrs old, still has the VW input shaft. I went through 3 main bearings in the first 2 seasons with a 300HP 2.5L Subaru motor running 10lbs boost. Car weighs 1850, Funco Gen 3. I spend the majority of my time in 3rd gear.

An e-box with all upgrades uses a 2-d gear carrier and a cx11 m/s bearing, the same parts as a 2-d, other than approx .250 wider gearsets and now standard g-50 input shaft there is no difference between the two. (shift rails and associated linkages asside) So other than the input shaft wrapping(torsion effect) or the mainshaft doing the same,due to its smaller diameter, why would one kill m/s bearings and not the other? I am not trying to say the input shaft is the fault just trying to analyze a situation

My Trans came from transworks and the gears were stamped on the side

450 hp, 2500lb car,
4.86 weddle rp and gears .
2.90
1.93
1.50
1.14


Fresh trans this season. I run the pump, cooler and transworks nosecone also, 15 days maybe 50-60 hrs of duning. So far so good !,,, ah-oh .

.

Seaduner from what I am beginning to understand is that you have on of the earlier 2D's, which would be right in the mix of numerous bearings used. At one point we had a custom bearing made that was suppose to change the world, it didnt! and they had to eat them. I believe your gearbox was being gone through at the time so it may have seen more than one style bearing. You should have the CX11 in it now, how is that working?

The inputshaft wrap up could be a big contributer to the life of the bearing, but we changed this design due to the amount of failures in the inputshaft department, which points to heavier cars and more HP.

Is it true that midengine cars are "easier" on the trans?

How often do you see input shaft failures on e-boxes compared to m/s bearing failures on 2-ds? Just wandering the differences and why some people are having better luck with the e-box.

Theory goes like this, Less weight over the rear wheels, less traction, which allows more wheel spin and less stress on gearbox.

Thanks, that's what I was told also

And I'm hoping it's true

It all lies in the twist in the shaft and CV axles, and maybe even as far as driver skill, and the concious thought that the gearbox is to small for the car. Or the wife is always riding shot gun . Are we sure we are comparing apples to apples ie: vehicle weight, motor package, gearing, driver skill, terrain, tire pressure, tire size...?

what bearing does Bill from AZ transaxle use? His really seems to work well. I got 2 seasons on mine before rebuild 450 hp ls1 2500lb car. It was not dead (main bearing) but getting close. All other parts were fine. Had about 22 3-4 day trips. I asked him about different nosecone and he said they were not necessary. Hard for me to judge I have had both the E and the 2d and both lasted fine. E was a 3 sp model. I think car geometry has a lot to do with trans survival too.

I also think a lot has to do with shock setup, I had two rear shocks go bad, and it felt like I was kicking my trans in the nuts.
I would be suprised if I have to rebuild it soon.


It would be like a trans builder to take a perfectly good ebox, and put nasty 2d parts in it Can't make a livin if your box aint breakin.

3yrs ago I switched to the zero tolerance bearing. I'm still using the same bearing even though I've had the transaxle apart 3 times for other things. I'm going to run it till it fails to see just how good it is. I'm afraid to change the bearing to any other type, hence my question about Weddle offering the zero tolerance type now. I believe it's the best bearing for the application (better than CX11) given the evidence I've heard/seen regarding the shaft bowing. My trans has had several upgrades over the last 5yrs except the input shaft, I'm still running the VW style, not G50, but I'm currently running 400HP Subie motor and it's been fine so far.

Victor, what do you know about my type bearing. Have you heard of it?

Also, what can you tell us about the LQ456? Is that trans hush-hush for now?

With the ring gear on the other side does the load "bow" the main shaft in a good direction?

It's not that it bows, it just would try to slide away from the Mainshaft bearing. the "bow" is called deflection. For some reason we are noticing this with the nose cone mods available.

Sea duner, the LQ is on its way, I have no newer information on it. As far as the Zero tolerance bearing, Weddle does not offer them, and we use to use one but it had an even shorter life. How many of you are on a scheduled maintanece with you gearbox and trans builder? These bearing are wear items, more hp,torque,bigger tire, heavier car means faster wear. Most dealers replace this bearing when they go through the box like they do the seals, which means the bearing might have some wear but is not gone.

Hum, you saw higher failures with a zero tolerance bearing? That doesn't match my experience, but I when I installed the zero tolerance bearing I also installed the Funco nosecose. My nosecose has been through a few modifications since it's inception. Fortunately I don't have to split the cases to upgrade the nosecose. I'm curious who else on the board has a zero tolerance bearing in the past and had a short bearing life. Maybe it's my nosecone that's helped mine live longer..... which it's suppose to do.

Every time my transaxle is rebuilt all the synchros get replaced. It's amazing how many times 2 of the 4 are cracked, but not broken, always thinking to myself it's a good thing it was torn apart for other reasons. I finally broke a synchro last year after just two trips on a new rebuild. I'm curious what others have experienced.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that 95 to 98% of the folks that play in the sand dunes don't schedule to have their transaxle torn down (unlike baja racers) if it isn't acting funny in some way. I think we all expect or hope the transaxle to last 2 or 3yrs of hard duning, but maybe I'm wrong.

There is something to be said about how much a gear box will last in the sand, the Syncro deal can be part of the manufacturer i am not sure anybody makes a decent syncro anymore. I think if more people maintained there cars like Race cars and not so much like daily drivers, certain problems could be avoided.for example fuel mileage, How many people know how much gas you can get out of your fuel cell, or shock pressures and such? Also an accurate log of miles and time. I think if we get in tune with our cars not only will we enjoy our selves more but at the end of the day have the satifaction of knowing you got every single cent out of the car!

Victor do you mean if you LUG IT there is more load on the trans @ a lower rpm taller gear?
so instead of cruising @ 30mph in 3rd gear it should be in 2nd gear ?
I think most people would think driving more aggressive (in the powerband) would be worse (more load)
on their transmission.

can you explain load through the gears?

what is resisting forward acceleration in a sandcar? does that resistance load get higher or lower with speed?

do the lower ratio (#numerically) ring and pinion fail less due to thicker teeth? if so is it worth getting lower ratio
and making up with it in the gears 1,2,3,4 or do the gears get thinner and fail more?

swiped 13.5k on my visa and it is important that i understand how not to break my s4 through big tires and twin
blowdryers .

Just about right, its not a problem to cruise in 3rd at thirty, but rather than flooring it and letting the torpue of the motor do move the car drop a gear. Have you heard the horror stories about chassis dyno blow ups? Maybe once a month I get a call, "IT BLEW UP ON THE DYNO WT*?" well heres what happens. ON the Dyno the car has the best traction it will ever have they bring it up to speed usually third, let it come down to the begining of the cam, 1500rpm-2200rpm. THen they plant there foot with absolutly no slip it loads everything up now imagine the ring & pinion is essentially hooked straight to the dyno, and the Mainshaft straight to the motor, the teeth on the gear happen to be the negotiation table. Now when neither side gives, the teeth break, but in this process they push away from each other the mainshaft out the window and the Pinion out the front door. Now of course in the sand you do not have the same traction... but! on the dyno you are not moving the car you are moving the roller which only weighs so much, Std. practice is to drag the roller to get certain torque numbers that are real. When someone goes to far with the drag , the trans breaks since it is the negotiation point. In the sand you load the car with gas, and every accesory as seen on Pimp My ride and you are back to the dyno situation, granted not perfect traction but you are getting closer. This is why some bearing last longer than others. And some fail on the dyno. Now If the trans is new and the same bearing is in there that was also dynoed, expect it not to last long. Now another thing is How many dyno runs did they do to get it tuned and then fine tuned? ........
So, once the motor is wraped up and you are on the pipe the shaft speed is up which means each tooth is loaded for a shorter and shorter amount of time which helps spread the load, which means less deflection and less thrust load. Think about the rear wheels on a funny car when they burnout the tires expand and you see the car lift, well its alomost the same thing becuase of the given nature of the design of the tooth on a gear, granted that they do not expand but the try to move away from each other like the outside of the tire and the rim.

Victor, I heard the helical cut angle on the 002 stack for the E box and the wider gears on for the 2D is the same angle. Is that true? If so, do you think the added surface area of the wider gear could add enough resistance to make the shaft bow more, given there's more drag with more surface area, more HP loss to the rear wheels, etc. Maybe that's a reasonable theory for the main shaft to bow (deflection) more on the 2D.

What have you heard from customers using the Transwerks and Funco nosecones that provide more shaft support? Are their main bearings lasting longer?

True the angle is the same, but the width of the gear only really adds to strength yes the shaft is longer but also thicker. We must really look at comparing apples to apples, Has anyone swaped a 2D with a E in the exact same car? The increase in drag is minimal, only on a dyno might you notice the difference in efficency, a more dramatic effect is changing the Motor, Tire Size, Vehicle weight. These three are usually common when electing the 2D over the as the gearbox the car will be using.

Victor, I just want to make sure I am understanding this correctly. It is better to chose a gear where I am at a mid-range rpm then to lug it. I have the S4 and realize this site it dedicated more for the E box and 2D. I am running a 2500 lbs car with a 500 hp V-8. I have good size tires and will probable run a little more pressure in them to encourage some more wheel spin. Along with regular maintaince, will these two thing help prolong the life of my S4?

Lugging for some motors could also be bad so be aware of that, but the S4 is a diffrent monster and will take more abuse in the gear stack section since it is significantly larger. Sorry for the delayed response it had been a while since i stoped in on this thread!

Regarding the 2D,
Just so I am straight on this because in one response it says it's ok to lug 3rd at 30, then in another it says no.
When duning.. Is 4000-4500 rpm's in second gear with an occasional rev to 5500 best ----or---- 2500-3000 rpm in third with an occasional rev to 4500 best?
Max torque comes in at 4-5000 rpm and max HP is at 5500 on my dyno sheet.
And are you saying we should replace the bearings after dyno runs too?
Thanks

Vehicle weight comes into play (a lighter car with the exact same gearing and HP will have a diffrent feel all together) ... when you are driving around in say third gear, at what rpm does the car feel slugish and at what rpm does it feel lighter. What kind of motor is this most four cylinder motors are exempt to a point since there torque numbers are way below that of a V8 motor.