I have a long travel 5 seat rail with King 2.0 shocks with the dual rate spring setup. up front.
I've noticed the front end sagging a bit lately when im driving and or come to a stop. It doesn't pop back up to its full height. It stays sagged out, limp...etc etc -grin
(if i lift the nose up, it will stay, but any pressure will drop it down about 4", without rebound. If you sit on it, then off, it wont come all they way back to top either.

NOTE: the car rides amazingly soft while over woops and any bouncy terrain. and it only bottoms out if I land a jump wrong with all 5 seats full. ( So i think the bottom spring is working well)

How do i correct this without changing the top spring rate? (id like to keep the soft ride).
Could it be in need of nitrogen or whatever goes in them? Or are the springs getting worn? (they're about 5 years old)
Here's what i've tried...
1. dialed the top dial down to about the middle. eg. the top spring compressed about 3" and dialed the stop point thing down about the same amount. THe part that when hit, the 2nd spring starts working
This seemed to give it a little more rebound. Or maybe it was my imagination. haha. But im not sure if that is the right way to fix the issue.

The front end isn't heavy. I can almost lift it off the ground myself. entire weight is only 1700 lbs (VW engine 5 seeater w/ no aluminum body....yet)

Please help.
thanks much!
Mike

Charge the Shocks ? And then back off the top springs.

When you say "full height" are you referring to full extension, or ride height? If your talking about pulling it up it so the shocks are fully extended and then it sags, that's not where you check it. The car is suppose to sit on some of the travel, approximately 25 to 30 percent, some as much as 50 percent. So some droop is necessary so the car rides good...


Also, if you plan on stiffing up the suspension, I would highly recommend plating the bottom a-arms. Your mounts are pretty much dead center, and a stiffer setup will stress them more and bend them eventually.

from what you are saying it sounds like it is set up correct. Don't mess with it. You want your car to sag some. If you car rides at the top of the shock then you loose usable travel and your car rides like shait. You should bottom out if you land a bad jump with a full car.

I agree with him. If I'm bottoming out all the time then sure, it's too soft. But, If I only bottom out once or twice a trip because I miscalculate a transition then I think that's fine.

Thanks for the comments guys. I do get what you're saying about being ok to bottom out if you scew up a jump. with or without a full car.
Let me clarify my concern a bit better...
When i'm by myself or only have one passenger, the car seems to be fine. But I typically have 4 or 5 with me.
I've noticed at that time, while im cruising through the dunes the A-Arms are riding almost flat. Therefore when i hit a big woop or something, i don't have much travel to work with. Also, when I come to a stop, I expect the shocks to raise back up to almost full height. I understand a lil sag is needed. But shouldn't it pop back up to near the top when i stop or when Im not rolling etc or even rolling slow etc?
Seems like being that it isn't doing that, that I need to stiffen it up a bit or something.
When i turned the nut down to get into the top spring, it did give it more resistnace. But i feel like im working against myself (and the ride) by doing that too much more.

Maybe my question should be...What is the ideal setting for the shocks? How much sag should there be? and shouldnt it snap back up to take up most of the slack i the limit strap?

If i was to start out with no pressure on the top springs (the nut dialed all the way up, not having any pressure on the coil). About how far would you dial it down (an inch? or 1/4 or 1/2 way down etc?, compressing the spring etc).
And then, where should that other nut be dialed in at? The stopper that initiates the action from the 2nd coil, (bottom, stiffer spring/coil)
Right now its dialed down about half the distance of the compressed coil. therefore the spring is only working to half its potential\travel.

Sorry so long winded. Just want to have it right.

My worry is that the shocks or springs are loosing some of their strenght. Causing the slag or sag etc.

I look forward to reading the comments.
Mike

Sisnister. You said a couple very interesting thigns. Thank you. Im learning a lot from the comments. Funny you say the shock mounts are in the middle and need supported if I stiffen the suspension. I have broken both arms in the past. Mainly my fault but they did seem a bit weak sauce to me when it happend. I had hoped they hold up a bit better than they did. So that does make a LOT of sense to me. And I think I need to get them supported/boxed or something soon.
So thanks for bringing that to my attention. Might save me and my family some injury.

Can you recomend anyone to help me out with strenthening them? i live in the CA bay area. I can ship them out if needed.

Thanks

If the rail rides perfect with 2 people, and sits too low with 5 in the rail, you need to decide which you want the rail to be set up for, as your not gonna get both. Right now, it's set up correct for 2 people, so it sits lower with more. If you set the shocks up stiffer for 5 people, it will ride good like that, but will be a lot rougher with only 2 people, and will prob. not sit on much droop at all, so it will ride great with 5 people, but very stiff with you and a passenger, so you need to decide which is more important and set the car up that route..

The car is not suppose to spring back up to take up all the limit straps slack, you need slack. I set my rail up to run on just over 30 percent of the shock travel, you sound pretty similar.







I'm sure there are plenty of shops around your area that can do it. I plate my suspension components because I pretty much jump everything I see and blow through whoops at 80 plus.....


And yes, any single sheer mount you see will be double sheer when this rail is done...

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Thanks for the pics and the comments. Yeah it does ride real nice with single or two in it. I guess trying to find a happy medium is key. If you all don't think it has to pop back up all the way, then i'll just dial it in a bit and test her out.

after looking at hundreds of Arms the past couple days on here. Mine look weak. No wonder they broke. and i rarely get out of 3rd gear. hahaha. i can't imagine 80mph on the flats. let alone in the woops. lol. I guess i need to upgrade my engine next. haha.

I'll look into getting the arms boxed or similar by someone local. thanks agian
and be safe out there.

Mike

From what it looks like in that picture, the top (red) springs look compressed alot. I havnt seen where you list the spring rates and lengths anywhere. Also, with where the shocks are located on the lower arm(close to the middle), they get alot more leverage applied to them, requiring stiffer springs also.
Can you list the info on the springs?

if it rides / works well w/ one or two people in it, then maybe a small change in springrate and maybe a little more compression valving in the shocks will help.

You should NOT be at full droop at ride height though, (limit straps tight) my truck (built for the desert, not the dunes) rides at about 1/2 way thru the travel, front/rear & doesn't bottom out much...but I don't launch it into the air on purpose, either.

Don't be such a Sally.................


lol

it's all made from mild steel...it would explode if it ever got used hard...where's socaldmax? LOL

My car was doing the almost the same thing. I wanted the sag and the ride was great but I G'd out a bunch so Kevin McMullen increased the bump stop in my shocks and my car never rode so good. I finally got the front dialed in. Rear needs just alittle love and she be running like a top. 95mph on the flats no prob. 87 with front tires off the ground

putting some bracing along the bottom of your lower a arms might help out a lot. Also you really have to choose between riding good with 1/2 or 3/5 people. If you had bypass you could turn in the compression for when you had 3/5 people. Overall it is supposed to sag otherwise you will not get all your travel out of it if it springs back up to the top all the time.

Thanks for the additional comments today guys. I don't have the car at the house in order to get the spring rates for you. But I'll try to get them and post them here. I know the Red, top spring is light. But it rides very, very soft while in that spring.
Sounds like its pretty close to good now. But here's another issue that's goign to come up soon...

I'm trying to get some aluminum on the car. Seems like that will add a lot of front end weight. (and over all).
The car is only 1700lbs. Running the HUGE VW motor. haha. Right now the VW 2332 does run well. strong and seems powerful. But im afraid of when I get the aluminum front hood that:
1. the shocks are goign to sag even more (due to the extra weight)
2. The engine and tranny will have more stress o them
3. loss of power. (that I can't afford to loose much of. -grin)

So now the question will be...What do I change the spring rates to now? And yes, i know you need to know what the current rates are. So i will post those.

As for the strengthening of the front arms....I would like to get that done. Seems like a very weak link in car. I've broken both sideds already. Both my own fault. (5 in car, approaching a jump and the transision was a bit steep from down hill slope to where hill starts goign up (at bottom) came in at bit of an angle, mid 2nd gear. front right tire/suspension took all the weight, spring bottomed out and SNAP!!!) done for the day.

I would like to get them boxed in I think. Or woudl you get new ones all together?

If your springs can bottom out (coilbind) before the suspension/shock bottoms out, that is one problem...longer springs might be in order, and at least the little rubber bumpstops that ride on the shock shaft would help also.

The aluminum work will most likely be less than one additional passenger, so you should be able to get an idea of how it will react from there...

if you're anywhere near Rancho Cucamonga, CA I can help you box your arms or make new ones (whichever you prefer) also, I have a few 2.0 springs lying around that I'd let you borrow if they're the right length/rate. (maybe have you leave a deposit)

NoDnaRb, thanks for the advice. The weight of the aluminum compared to a passenger is a great comparison for me. thanks. as for the springs and rates etc. ill be getting those numbers tomorrow morning and posting them. I have no darn clue what they are. im hoping I can find the inscription on the top of them. Not sure tho, cuz I don't recall ever seeing the rates while cleaning it and stuff. But i'll look everywhere. ha.

I know they're dual rate. one red thner spring and the blue one has a lot thicker coil. I do like the ride when alone or one passenger. So i think its close. ONce I get the body work I bet I have to upgrade the top springs or maybe both a bit. If i do. maybe I can do a trade with someone or somthing.
I wish I did live down south near all you guys. But im in the SF bay area. San Jose. and i think im the only one in northern cali that likes this damn sport. haha. i can't seem to find any builders, fabricators or custom painters or anyone who does nice sandcars. (well i take that back , there is one place that has treated me very good, named Sand Candy Motorsports. they're about 45 min south of me. nice guys.)

*** I did talk to one of my buddys that's a welder. He said he can do whatever I want with the Arms. Im thinking I need to Plate the bottom of the arms. Would anyone recomend me doing the top as well? or boxing it all in or what? Id like to save the existing ones due to cost of building new ones.

thanks

I would have your welder buddy do the bracing on the arms. I wouldn't let sand candy do much (if any) fabwork on your car...(do a search on here, I'm sure they're nice guys & all, but their work seems to be sub-par at best...)

post up your springrates when you can. & good luck!

Take your car to Bill Varnes at Mirage Racing in Santee and put your problem to sleep 619-562-5533