What would you have said over this bullhorn to the entire city? Would you scream loud enough for the oposition to hear you so that they could maybe file a lawsuit too? Were you at FFD?

Tough to answer that question about how the letter was written. I would guess someone might be able to black line the person's name and make a copy. But again, it really does not matter here because it is undisputed that the election process was not in accordance with applicable law.

I'd venture a guess that some folks don't want to attract this kind of attention to themselves, for what ever their reason might be. This would have been the way I might do it (and perhaps you too), but I tend towards just accepting that their concerns were voiced in a manner that was most confortable to them.

Just one example of a peson who does not want their full name out in public is a member of our Northern Board. I really don't see anyone pressing the fact they don't publically publish their name (heck, this same person when interviewed by a newspaper, I belive this year, declined to provide the reporter the last name) and in fact this person is on the "slate" Jim and others are a part of.

I'm not at all sure about the laws changing regarding not for profit orgs. This type of law is very confusing and a rather large section to research. I'd venture to guess that each OHV group would have to spend big $ each year to have law firm keep them up on how the law has changed. And... then spend more big $ to monitor the election process.

You say that it would take a lawyer to figure out the election laws but elude to a common member catching the problem and sending the "letter". You're talking in circles.

Perhaps I didn't state this correctly.

What I was attempting to say is the laws are somewhat complex and part of a much larger set of corportate laws.

I have no idea, but I'm thinking a member found something and used an attorney to represent them instead of raising the issue themselves.

Could have that member brought up that issue and sounded out like what you provide in a previous post. Indeed they could have. But instead, they chose to have someone represent them.

To some degree, there is a lot of folks not comfortable with public speaking and have others speak for them. That is why attorney's usally don't go out of business as there is a large base of people that would rather have some one represent them rather than them doing it themselves.

Even Jim in a previous post provided something about not listening to some emails he was sent and wanted to wait until an attorney contacted him.

Doesn't matter much now. After the changing the rules AGAIN election Jim and Kathine won out. Out with the old in with the new. Its done and over with. I'm looking forward to a new CORVA I can be proud of.

Congratulations

It was a long day and a long drive. Welcome to the new board.

What rules were changed? How can you be proud of a group of folks who will lie, cheat, post personal e-mails, use the corva name as advertising, send foul, abusive, obscene e-mails, just to get elected? Woods only won by 5 votes, same as Kathrine(sp), should have been the same for Collin but it was slightly more. Maybe something fishy there!! Arbogast brought free trial member proxies and tried to pass them off as full voting members. Yeah, those are some folks to be proud of. Wanna bet they get rid of the Off Roaders In Action too?

Fastkx

A lttle Bitter huh Fastx(erin)? What happen to different colored piecs of paper for each office handed out-vote- seperate paper back into color an count? See maybe I didn't need more than one BoD meeting.


I don't want to see the ORIA gone.. no one does. What I WOULD like to see is volunteers to get involved to help cut down the ridiculously high amount they are paying for a monthly news letter. If anything pay for someone to check for errors.

Since I was there……a few comments and observations….

I’ve not ever attended a CORVA BOD type function nor have I before, observed Ed ‘in action’ running what surely must be an official, important meeting, so I can look at this from an ‘Outside of The Box POV, though admittedly, I’m not politically unaware of some things.

A great deal of time was spent verifying the authenticity of those wishing to vote and those with proxies. Certainly more time then was anticipated, and that’s ok. As this was rather important, my hat is off to Wayne and his assistant (sorry, I apologize for not remembering his name). They worked their you-know-what’s off all day, in what can hardly be described as a friendly environment. Naturally, I can’t comment on what Arbogahst brought with him, as he was behind me in line. I do know that one individual had brought in 8 proxy votes, but they were disallowed because he needed a minimum of ten, per CORVA by laws. (or something like that. I know his extra votes weren’t allowed, and that’s ok. He wasn’t trying to be sneaky, he didn’t know). The gentleman in line ahead of me had 35 (or so) proxies with him. One or two were from CORVA members who’s membership had expired and one was from someone who had joined after the cut off date. Those were not counted either. My point is, a major effort went into verifying the validity of all the votes to insure they were all proper. Everyone was attempting to legally get as many votes as possible. To single out and accuse Jim Arbogahst of anything is, IMO, just plain wrong. If you are going to do that, then you should accuse everyone who had invalid votes of being underhanded. I do not think that is the case. Sure, everyone brought in what they had. Wayne and Co., as is their duty, checked em’ out, and fairly, impartially, kept the ones that qualified and disallowed those that didn’t. <shrug> No big deal. That’s how these things work. More mud slinging doesn’t open or keep open one square inch of OHV/public land.

Ed ran the election the way he wanted to. Based on what I observed on Saturday, and what my designate observed on May 10th (again, someone who had never seen Ed in action before) this appears to be how Ed does things. It is not that there was anything wrong, per say with how the election was run. I believe it was fair and honest. It was that a good chunk of the people, specifically, the at the time, current CORVA BOD members and candidates, DID NOT know how it was going to be run.

I am a manager and leader. Both in business and industry. Most of you know of my involvement in non-profit .org’s management and leadership. While it may be that some, or even ALL of the other CORVA BOD members would not have agreed with (or, perhaps they all WOULD have agreed with) Ed, the fact is, he didn’t take his STAFF aside and let them know what was going to happen. They DIDN”T KNOW. The staff I have around me, whether I pay them or they volunteer, is there to support me, make me successful and by extension the organization successful. They don’t always have to agree with what I intend to do, but they surely MUST know what is coming, so they can do their jobs. I am truly sorry, but for Ed, the only description I can come up with is dictatorship. His response to Jim Colln’s questioning was “This is how I’m going to run the election, just deal with it” in a public forum, was inexcusable. His BOD was not allowed comment or vote, nor were the rest of us members. His decision to allow the candidates to take questions from the floor was unilateral. Was this a bad thing? In the grand scheme of things, no it wasn’t. It kept us there at least an hour longer. Some of us were not planning on being there past 2pm and we didn’t leave until 5:30. Some people left early. It’s not that what Ed was doing was incorrect, or bad, it was THE HOW. I believe in, at the very least, in majority rule. There have been several times where I’ve wanted to pursue something, do some THING, and my BOD has voted me down. That is what they are there for. To represent the interests of the group at large as THEY see fit also. That is also why I have that staff there, next to me. To tell me when they think I’m gonna do something that isn’t all that bright. If I’m not going to listen to them, why do I have them?

I would like to hope that this is not normally how Ed does things. I have a great respect for Ed, for what he has accomplished, and am grateful for the riding areas I can go play in because of Ed’s tireless, life long devotion to keeping those places open. I hope he continues to support CORVA and all the .orgs as he has in the past.

It was clear, even to the completely new/naive that the tension within the at that moment, current leadership of CORVA could be cut with a knife. As the meeting was, IMO, somewhat loosely run, it is my hope that the acting CORVA secretary was audio recording the meeting, as I did not see her taking notes. If she was, my apologies. There were several nominations from the floor, which were seconded. Even though none were elected, these details are important and should be accurately recorded, as well as the results.

It is my hope and belief that the new CORVA board will be able to unify and create the communication and synergy needed to move CORVA forward to meet what is going to be a major challenge in terms of fundraising and land use issues in the near future. It is also hoped that they can find a way to return to Eco-logic. Only by joining our resources, as our opponents do, can we be successful in our goal to promote our sport and keep what we have, and open up more.

It also my deep and sincere hope that those CORVA supporters, who have been involved for many, MANY years, but may not have been elected to office, continue to work with CORVA and the new board. Your work is not unnoticed, and it has been and is very much appreciated. More importantly, it will be needed.

Thank you,


Lloyd Misner
President,
Orange County ATV Association

A PS on this:
It should be noted that there were 262 (I think that is the total) number of votes there. Out of approximately 2000 CORVA members, and, as someone pointed out in the meeting, 1 MILLION green stickers.

Apathy is gonna kill us, folks.

No this is NOT Erin. I'm not bitter, i'm appaled by what some would do toget what they want. That's all. They got it, so we'll see what happens. You have no idea what some of the e-mails these folks sent said. The election process was that proxies were turned in by club and non- club deligates what i was refering to were those proxies, not the ballots that were handed out there. Your still clueless.

Someone DID volunteer to do the newsletter. For almost 8 years Erin did it for free! What does it cost some of the other off-road orgs to put out there newsletters. It cost's CAL 4 Wheel over 3 times as much as CORVA has been paying. ASA only puts one out every 3 months, so it CAN'T keep it's members informed on issues that need attention NOW. By the way the ASA news letter editor should be embarrased for such poor layout, white space use, and the most hyphens i'v ever seen. They do use nice paper though, so I guess that makes up for everything!
Are you volunteering to do ORIA? What errors would you be refering to?

More mud slinging doesn’t open or keep open one square inch of OHV/public land.

The gentleman helping Wayne was Geoff Tere(sp), VP of Administration. They did do an awsome job. Yes there were quite a few votes thrown out because of improprieties, and Wayne and Geoff did a great job in catching them. Almost everyone that brought votes that failed to meet the criteria did not understand or misunderstood the requirments in the by-laws. I used Mr Arbogast because i believe that since he signed up the "voter" in question at a show, he knew that vote was not good but brought it anyway.

You mention mudslinging was not going to help keep our riding areas open and your right. But, I didn't see ANY mud being thrown by the existing board, only by those seeking election(not all) as can be seen in this thread and elsewhere. The use of private e-mails, etc... is very childish and immature, but it was done. The way the "slate" behaved not only alienated those that were voted out, but many of the current volunteers as well. That's no way to treat voluteers no mater how long they have been involved. When people try to micro-manage everything, people will just leave and that's what has happened here. Have you been to any CORVA BOD meetings? For years and years there were very few squables, recently that changed. The last FFD is a great example. The first FFD happend because a volunteer said let's do this and he got it done with very little involvement from the BOD. There were lot's of prizes, trophies etc... The area was spotless when we left. The last FFD there were few prizes to give out and most of them were not substantial, lots of lube and grips, things like that. No trophies. Folks kept asking "are they going to give trophies like last year?", no. No mud pit cause they didn't make arrangement for the equipment. And, after it was over, there was a HUGE pile of trash left. It was overflowing the dumpsters. Who cleaned it up? Ed and Paul K. NOT the folks that put FFD on this year. They left and didn't look back! That's the type of thing that worries me about them. No responsability. They seem to self involved. They will do there thing and we'll do ours. We got involved because the places we loved to recreate were being closed to us. For the last 20 years we've been working at trying to keep current area's open and to get new area's developed. We spent FAR to much personal time, effort, and money to try to accomplish our goals. Time we could have spent doing what we love. Now, i'm going back to do what i've wanted to do from the start. Have a good time with my friends doing what we love to do. I do wish those newly elected all the best, cause their going to need it. It's been a long 20 years and I don't see our fight getting any easier.

And, Erin DID in fact keep meticulous notes. I know since I was sitting next to her.

Lloyd, For as long as I've been involved with CORVA, they have always acknowledged those that work toward are goals. Thank you for noticing. I hope this BOD will do the same. So far, I don't think it will. There to self centered. But I'm biased and jaded because of the personal attacks that I've seen from them(not all). If they had run a campaign without resorting to the crap they pulled, they would have my support. I've supported ALL of the previous officers in CORVA for almost 20 years.

On your p.s.. Your soooo right, Apathy IS gonna kill us. If we could get just 1 dollar from everyone that rides off-road, just imagine what we could do. The new wave of volunteers has there work cut out for them.

Your right. If you are refering to my posts, i'm correcting factual errors.

I'm with you TD. Nothing to do now but move forward. It is my opinion that the best people won out. and like Lloyd said, I too hope the people who did not get elected will continue to help in the same fight to keep our land open. The rest will work it self out.

I don't have the time, energy, or interest in quibbling over who’s right about what when it comes to trivial B.S, especially when it comes from someone who won't ever reveal who they are. I wish I they would P.M. me at least so I can hopefully try to inform them on the facts. Or even get their side of it so I can get things straight. Ignorance is not my cup of tea. I like to have my facts down.

IMO this bickering should stop and we should do our best to unite and keep the battle going.

Mnimud, you know what they say about opinions! This trivial B.S. could cost a lot more than your capable of understanding. Why should i PM you? Do you think that you can change my way of thinking? It seem that you are the one who doesn't like the facts and keep sticking your head in the sand. Re-read this entire thread and see who said what. What facts do you have down? Prove what i have posted here is wrong. Want some more facts? CORVA has made substantial money volunteering at the Adalanto GP. Last year, N2dirt butted in and took most of it. Same at FFD. Those are facts. Want to dispute them? If you want the bickering to stop, quit posting B.S. and it will. Simple.

This might just be an issue we want to move forward on: Click here

Who can argue against moving forward, therefor what political body wouldn't overuse that term, it has started to make my gut turn when I here it. Not because I'm paranoid of moving forward, it's just over time you just start wondering, why all the red flags we're blasting past don't concern anyone, my doctors running out of tweaks for my MEDS ands starting to think thats not the problem...TJ

I know that the elections are over and good luck to the new Board - but it was mentioned that the old board did nothing to bring in events, money and assoicates
Really what would you call the Truckhaven Challenge (none of the new Board could give up the time to assist or attend), the Southern Jamboree, last years Family fundays, lets think back to the all day events, the large Raffle, the food, and the area was left clean at all the events. then lets go to this year Family Fundays, 2-3 hours events, associate that quit because name continually announced incorrect (yes the announcer was corrected),people unahappy over a cheesy raffle.
then there is the mention on getting more income, we 17 plus associates is not too bad and that does not include the sponsors that have donated product to these Corva events. then there are the volunteers that have worked the CORR series and expos angain there was money and membership brought in there, and who worked these? it was the real volunteers of CORVA that give up there weekends to work the shows, the events where was the Corva2008 that you love not there (Jim C did make a some events - family does come first).

Mnimud you say you got the facts, yet you only use one person as your reference, whats the matter takes to much time to do the research? to actually talk to more than one person?
Buddy you are so wrong, but you got your way so lets see what happens they are now in the real world

Congratulations to Jim and Katherine!!

Jim and Katherine are wonderful, hard-working, dedicated people with a lot of integrity. I know them well and glad they won.

CORVA will benefit from having them on board!

I would certainly hope so, I always considered CORVA to be the center-point of California issues, I would hate to be forced to reevaluate this position it's all up to them at this point...TJ

I don't believe apathy is the reason there was only 262 votes. Why was it necessary for 2000 CORVA members to drive to Bakersfield to cast their votes (with gas prices nearing $5.00 a gallon?). Was there room capactity for 2000 people where the voting took place? Why was there not a ballot sent out to each CORVA member with all the candidates and offices open for election on it so at least all CORVA members could vote? I never even recieved an e-mail in time to send in my vote.

Please allow me to give you an answer.

Bakersfield was chose because it allows the nothern California folks to come to the meeting without diving another 2 + hours. I could live with that.

As to sending out the ballots, this was discussed in the Board meeting. But because the by-laws don't provide for a mail in ballot, the decision was made to hold the election where it was.

I have to agree, a mail in ballot would have made this a better process. It seems to me that about 10% of the PAID membership participted in the election. And in the end, 5 votes seperated the winner for President.

I'm not at all too sure here, but I'm getting reports of an effort for a re-count. Some folks are upset that their rightfull vote was not counted.

Time will tell...

Sounds like Bush/Gore 2000 all over agian...TJ

A couple of points.

The candidates for each office watched the counting of their votes. Any disputes/recounts should have been brought up by them at that time. JMO

If someone present had an issue with any of their proxies that were not allowed, they should have brought that concern to the BOD’s attention, (as they were told to do so by Wayne and Geoff) prior to the commencement of balloting so the BOD could resolve it. If someone left before the voting started and did not return in time, or left after the voting started and entrusted their votes to someone else, that gets into my “Too Bad” bucket. A recount at this time is a waste of effort and resources and will not be good for CORVA as an organization. As was noted, it is time to move on.



Respectfully, yes, I’m sorry, it is apathy. There are several ways to conduct elections. The positive side of mail in ballots, which allows the OPPORTUNITY for more participation, requires that the slate be set prior to the election. It does allow for write in candidates, but if someone see’s that Joe Duner is running for President, he is very likely NOT going to write Joe Duner in as Vice President, in the off chance that Joe Duner loses the president position.

I conduct the OCATV elections with mail in ballots. We leave nominations open for a month, and allow balloting for nearly a month. Members get at least (3) ballots in the mail. (2 newsletters and a separate mailing). I still do not get even 50% of my membership to participate. The down side to mail in ballots is that they are not anonymous. There is no way to really separate them.

The way CORVA ran this last election allowed for those people who were not elected to their first choice of office to be re-nominated for another one. Terry and Erin were two that were. This would not have been possible with mail in balloting.

Finally, it is not a requirement that all 2000 CORVA members show up. While there were approximately 262 votes, there were not 262 people in the room. More like 25-30, including Ed, Wayne and Geoff. Three people next to me had no ballots to cast. This is done through proxies. It is a very normal way to conduct elections, especially Corporate ones (see stock holders meetings) and has been for a long time. It only requires the member to expend SOME effort to assign his proxy to someone else, or it requires an effort by the candidates to canvass for votes and get them assigned to someone who will vote for them. Happens all the time. It is “A” way to do things, amongst many ways. It works just fine too.

Or show up at the election.

CORVA put forth a reasonable effort, for this election, to inform its members of the upcoming vote. We need to own some responsibility ourselves if we didn’t get our vote in. This isn’t a slam on rollthezee, its an observation. As a society, us Americans have gotten lazy and pathetic. Instead of being actively involved in our government, our organizations and putting forth an effort to be informed and KNOW what is going on, we expect it all to be handed to us on a platter so we don’t have to get our sorry a$$es off the couch and do anything.
There were 4 of us that carpooled up to Bakersfield. Gas split four ways? Even when I spoon feed this stuff to my members, I can’t get a majority of them to vote. Whose fault is that?

That's just eff*ing pathetic and petty.

I'm not casting judgement here on what I've heard, but when a person(s) who has a right to vote - but an error on CORVA's part keep them from casting their vote - does not seem pathetic nor petty. It is their right under the by-laws of the association and the laws of California to have that vote count.

A couple of points.

This election was bogus in all aspects the way it was handled.

I have been a Teamster for over 20 years and a mail-in ballot is completely anonymous.

Having said that, if the election just held is valid and official then so be it. I will continue to support CORVA as long as I see my right to access public lands protected.

Do not judge me or other members and assume that if you mail out a ballot they won't vote. I believe if you have internet access you can probably find out my public voting record (as you can elected officials). 25 to 30 people deciding the outcome of an election that affects millions of people (CORVA members or not) sounds more like a cult that a non-profit org.

I have the election figures but can't place my hands on the official figures at the moment. I can tell ya that Mr. Woods won by 5 votes.

The rest I'll post tomorrow.

I've heard just this night of 7 members, who were entitled to have their vote counted and their votes were not accepted. Of that amount, 4 had their votes removed by a person who didn't have their facts straight at the time.

I don't know what will come of the recount effort (if any) but I'm told that the ballots were placed in a sealed box and given to the new Association Secretary. I sure hope she left this sealed.

Given the margin I now see here, I'm thinking a recount many indeed be an idea that has merit.

What I would like to know is, where is the information coming from DUCK? I know you were not there at the meeting mentioned above. And since NO minutes yet (even a draft) have been sent to the board members how do you know this is what really happened?

I'm sorry, I don't have the time or the desire to answer any questions on this topic on a public forum it would be endless as you can see. I WILL answer any questions that I can if you send an email to me. jimc@corva.org

Or you can send an email to the entire board of directors at: corvabod@corva.org

Jim Colln
CORVA Vice President - Administration (NEW & THANKS for your support!)
Southern Regional Secretary

And for the record, I disqualified a friend that came with 8 votes to cast as he didn't meet the qualifications to be a delegate and vote... he wasn't too happy either driving 3 hours to get there.

Pretty easy one to answer Jim, I talked with a few at the Board meeting and they all provided what I posted about both aspects of the meeting.

Duck, a recount is eff*ing bullshit, petty and pathetic.

I'm not amazed at the reactions of some here. It was expected. You didn't let me down.

Just reporting what I've received via e mail. I don't make any decisions in this issue. My vote was given to a delegate and was counted.

If you don't agree with a recount if indeed those members who's vote was not counted, then your issue is with them and not me.

Congratulations!

Somewhere the enviro nazis are at a computer with a huge smile on their face.
The very thing they want to happen is happening....
Let it go, move on and agree to work towards the same goal.

You betcha, baby. Every second spent, every resource used for a recount is another nail for the eco nazis to use in our coffin.

Anyone pushing for a recount should be asking themselves: "Am I doing what is in the best intersts of CORVA, the OHV/Pro-Acess community and our sport? Or am I being petty and self serving?" If the results were different then they are, would these same people be raising this issue?

I repeat, there was ample opportunity to raise concerns about proxies allowed or disallowed before the BOD and the group prior to the commmencment of voting, as those holding proxies were told to do. It would be a gross injustice, and bad for CORVA to pursue this.

JMO

As far as I'm concerned it's a done deal, just like when Bank of America took over Security Pacific Bank, my final word on this is the same as what I told Bank of America. As a Security Pacific Bank that was part of this I got sick of being told that was then, this is now every time they did something that ticked me off, what they were told was you may have taken over the bank but if you want my business you have to earn it...TJ

As far as CORVA, one main item I will not except change which is, CORVA will continue to operate transparent to at least 501c3 standards, however will never seek that status, CORVA is against any movement to expand OHV grants beyond 501c3 organizations...TJ