Attached are 2 links to the El Centro BLM reports that deal with
1. Medical Graph
2. Medical Counts
3. Visitation Graph
4. Fee Collection FY04
5. Visitation by counter

If you click on this link, it will take you to the documents even if you don't have Excel. Once the document is on your screen, there are clickable tabs on the botom of the sheet.

http://www.americansandassociation.org/doc...04ISDRAData.htm

If you have Excel and want to import the document into your data base then click on this link.

http://www.americansandassociation.org/doc...04ISDRAData.xls

Question and request for ya Glenn (or Jerry or Larry or any other TRT rep)...

At the November TRT meeting the BLM said they didn't have the reports from Central Parking yet, so they couldn't answer accurately when they were asked how many weekly passes and how many season passes have been sold to date.

Did anyone ask for these figures again at the December TRT meeting?

I ask because I called Central Parking myself today and was told that they have the figures (and give monthly reports to the BLM) but they could not release the figures to me. They were told to ask me to ask the BLM or the TRT. I called Neil and left a message and so now I'm asking the TRT

The reports that are available here apparently cover October only.

Although the monthly reports are of course helpful, what this particular dune citizen is asking of the TRT at this particular moment is to please find out exactly how many weekly passes and how many season passes have been sold altogether since September, up to December 1st would be perfect.

Claudia at Central Parking assured me over and over again that they have that information available to the TRT and/or the BLM.

If you'd like her number, I can get it to you.

Thanks Glenn.

Vicki

Vicki,

Yes, the TRT is continually asking the BLM for the figures.

Here's the thing. Central Parking closes each month for accounting at the end of the month. Then they send the report for that month to the BLM by the 20th of the following month. Neil Hamada then has to do the accounting for the BLM and can not release the report until he has done that.

With that said, the October accounting should have been received by the BLM on November 20th. Neil just finished the October report and released it on 12/4/03 and it was posted here on 12/5/03. Central Parking just closed November and the BLM should have the accounting by December 20th.

The TRT hopes to get the reports from the BLM as soon after the 20th of each month as possible. However, we must be understanding of the time it takes them to review and release the offical reports. A 25 to 30-day period from the closing of a month to the report release will probably be the norm. Taking the Thanksgiving holiday activities into consideration, the turnaround time for the October report was very good. We are talking 11 business days (11/21 - 12/5), 2 of which most of us were off work.

During the meetings, the TRT has been given estimates or projections Central Parking has indicated to the BLM. They are in the minutes of the 11/18/03 Conference Call. Estimates were not given at the 12/01/03 Conference Call as no new figures were readily available.

I hope that answer your questions. Let me know if there is anything else.

Glenn

Thank you Glenn.

Standard reporting aside, Central Parking assured me that the figures are available to the "right" people, i.e., the TRT and/or the BLM.

I realize that the standard reports come out at standard times. What I am asking for is something outside the standard, but all it takes is a phone call.

The numbers are there. All we need is someone to fetch them.

The reason this is important is because we keep hearing differing compliance figures. If the BLM does not have a current count of the number of passes sold, they cannot possibly come up with a compliance rate anywhere close to reality.

The TRT has received conflicting data. I'm just asking for the confusion to be cleared up.

Once we know how many passes have been sold through the end of November, we will have a more accurate compliance figure. I am concerned with finding out that our compliance is far too low when it is too late to make a difference.

Vicki

I must agree with Sailaway

Closing the door after the cows are gone is too late

I understand for the need to review no. befor an official posting. But prelim no. should be made availible subject to revision after official audit. If C/P has the No. to the BLM by the 20th, then prelim No. should be availible by the 25th, with official revision by the 25th of the folloing month.

my .02

I must not be wording my request properly.

The "usual" reports, of course are still welcome and needed.

What I am asking for is not the same as the "usual" reports. I am not asking for preliminary numbers to be confirmed a few days later. I am not asking for the same kind of report that was recently posted.

Right now, right this very minute, Central Parking has the ability to provide the answers to the two questions I have.

1. How many weekly passes have been sold between the 2003 Sand Sports Super Show and December 1, 2003; and

1. How many season passes have been sold between the 2003 Sand Sports Super Show and December 1, 2003.

When I called Central Parking and asked for this information, I was assured that those numbers are available (which must be true since November has "closed"), but I was told they would only be released to either the TRT or the BLM.

I have left a message with Neil Hamada asking him to get the answers and by way of this forum I am asking the TRT to get the answers and I will also send an email to the TRT asking for the answers.

Thanks Glenn.

Vicki

Just an FYI..

NO one there to check people in or out this weekend at wash road.

Thanks for rephrasing it Vicki. These requests have been made, but not received. I will keep checking.

We (TRT) have asked for prelim numbers from the BLM, but none received other than what I've posted. I'm not sure that we would be able to release pubicly any prelim info we receive from the BLM outside of the public venue (i.e. meeting & conf calls) as the reports will not be public information until the BLM has released them as "official". I have asked Jerry Seaver to check on this.

Chummin' Thanks for the info.

I was at Buttercup this weekend and there were no Rangers that I saw. However, the campground hosts were there and had dune info and Pass exchange available.

LoBuck, I did see a couple of 'rangers' hovering around camp a couple of times but that was about it..

Vicki, You can do what you feel you need to. However, I personally do not feel that that is necessary at this time. We need to work with the local BLM office and to "move up the food chain" at this time, would do little to improve that. My opinion only.

The TRT has not been given the run around, we just have not been given the info. There is a difference. With everything else that Neil and the other BLM staff had been doing in preparation for the Thanksgiving holidays, they simply did not have the time. The TRT accepted that answer at that time. We will see what happens with our next request. Jerry is checking with Neil again to see what can be done and I will post his response as soon as I get it.


Also,

Glenn, I really don't mean to sound so harsh. I'm sure there are many people who are far more understanding and patient with the BLM than I am and find their lack of response to be just standard operating procedure.

My patience is gone though, more so because we were told with the increase in fees would come more accountability.

To withhold information doesn't seem to be fitting that general plan.

Vicki

Thank you Perry and naturally we want the numbers to be as accurate as possible.

First, please keep in mind that the numbers we are asking for are extrapolated directly from the data that is constantly being compiled by Central Parking.

Second, as has been pointed out in this thread alone and in other instances, Central Parking has "closed" November and we are not looking for numbers from December.

And finally, when I made the call and requested the information I was told it was available, but only to the TRT or the BLM.

Again, I am not asking for something that is impossible or even outrageously time consuming or indeed even difficult to achieve.

I don't even want to know how much money has been made from passes. All I want to know is how many have been sold up to and including November 30, 2003, and I was told this information is available.

Vicki

Perry, Thanks for the insight on accounting issues.

Vicki, I understand your frustration, and I think I understand where your coming from.

Our (BLM & TRT) priority is to have accurate numbers. Inaccurate accounting of dollars, even in preliminary format is just as useless as inaccurate compliance numbers. If I am going to rely on them, I would rather wait 10 working days, or more as needed, to not have to backtrack to find out why the prelim numbers don't match the final numbers.

I know that something that is only suppose to take me 10 minutes to do can disrupt my work for 30 minutes or more sometimes. The TRT would still like to see preliminary numbers, not for calculations but just for information. At some point the BLM will have to take that 10 minutesto do it.

As far as using the number of passes sold and dollars received to calculate an accurate compliance rate, that will never happen. At least I don't see how. To get an accurate compliance rate you have to know how many visitors that had passes and how many didn't for an absolute given period, such as a weekend or a week. You could then use averages overall. There are to many variables to just figure; we sold X number of passes since Oct 1 and we had X number of (estimated) visitors since Oct 1. How many times has the aveerage duner, that purchased an annual pass, been there since Oct 1? How many times has the avid duner, that purchased an annual pass, been there since Oct 1. How many duners that purchased an annual pass have not even been to the dunes yet?

I know what the real answer is to get this accurate number and I don't like it. Gates. I'm not sure what the acceptable means are. Bottom line is we need a better way to measure compliance than revenue vs visitation or ground-based estimates.

I guess the last thing is that even if the TRT does get the preliminary numbers, we may not be able to release them publicly. As I mentioned before, Jerry is asking that question also. When I hear from him I'll post it here.

In the mean time the TRT will keep hammering away.

Thanks. Sorry for the long post.

Glenn

Actually, it would seem fairly straight forward....
That is, if you assume innocent until proven guilty.

Simply take the estimate for the weekend... (For T-day I believe it was 156,000)
Then subtract the number of citations for non-compliance.
And divide the total number by the adjusted number and you'll have your compliance numbers.

I think it is just as reasonable to do it this way, maybe even MORE reasonable, then to GUESS at how many people didn't comply.

The Pastor

Brian's right. It won't matter how many have re-visited using their passes.

And it's not a fool-proof or 100% accurate way of verifying compliance, but it sure is a step in the right direction. What I don't understand, is why the reluctance to share these numbers?

I have to believe that the BLM has had these numbers in order to come up with their estimates on compliance... how else can they possibly have come up with compliance estimates, other than pulling them out of thin air?

Thin air will no longer do. We need facts.

Glenn, I have the phone number and the name of the person who told me she could release the information to the TRT or the BLM. Drop me a line if you want it.

Vicki

Glenn,

Your welcome. Glad somebody understood what I was saying.

Brian,

Great idea. That is a bit better way of looking at it.

Perry

Thank you Glenn.

Once again communications seem to have broken down.

November is "closed" but the numbers are not available (but they were last week)?

Doesn't matter... time to move on.

Vicki

Why do I get the feeling that if the numbers were low, we would know all about it?

Going with that thought, why, if expectations are being met or exceeded here, are the numbers not being brought out right away? Why the bean-counter bureaucratic tap dance? What could the possible motivation be?

Who benefits?

And why is my bullsh!t detector going off?

What's funny is that I called Central P. yesterday and talked to a lady about buying a pass for my friend, I asked why the numbers could not be given and she told me that the were not ready. She said a woman called a couple of days ago and said that she would sue them for the numbers.

Today is the 11th of December. Speaking for myself, the numbers that I am looking for only include passes sold up to and including November 30th.

I was told last week that the numbers are available, but only to the TRT and/or the BLM. This was repeated to me over and over and over again because we went round and round and round about it. I asked the question six different ways from Sunday and got the same answer each and every time. The person I spoke to informed me that she is the go-to guy for those numbers and I took her word for it.

Either something has changed since that moment in time, she gave me the wrong information (over and over again) at that moment in time, or the wrong information is being distributed at this moment in time. Quite frankly, where this "misunderstanding" begins does not matter much to me. The bottom line is we are not being given the numbers that should back up the BLM's compliance claims.

We actually should have been asking for these numbers all along instead of accepting what has obviously been a "best guess" on compliance percentages.

We are not talking about a manual system here, with hand-written ledgers or receipts. We are talking about a computerized system, one that electronically, not manually, logs each and every purchase made. It is sophisticated enough to distribute two separate types of passes, and it is sophisticated enough to print the date of purchase.

We were promised greater accountability. The numbers are there, they only need to be retrieved. Why is that not happening?

Vicki

I also find it strange that monthly Sales amounts are not made available sooner rather than later.

I do understand how busy BLM is, but that no excuse for delaying important information like this, especially after all the hoopla about raising fees!

I my opinion I find it disturbing that a monthly sales figures are not posted by the 10th of each month, furthermore these should be posted as a comparison to last years sales for the same time period.

I only can wonder what the REAL reason is for the delay.

I don't think FOIA can not be used against private companies. In the act, it says 'agency' through the whole thing, and then defines that word as meaning government. Doesn't seem to aply to private co.'s

Any news on this yet Glenn?

1) How many season passes were sold from September 22 through and including November 30, 2003?

2) How many weekly passes were sold from September 22 through and including November 30, 2003?

Vicki

Every excuse in the book.

Is there an updated visitor information excel spreadsheet yet? This one still only shows through November?

Perhaps it's time to contact friendly members of Congress and inquire about them requesting a General Accounting Office ("GAO") investigation of why it takes so long to provide the public with a very simple report within a week of the close of the month.

This is not "rocket science"!

Heck, if for example, the City of Anaheim could not provide timely attendance figures to the Angels... we might have an empty stadium in short order

No, just a former resident of the City. Just used this as an example because I go by the place each day to work.

Here is some preliminary info:

Yes Perry, I used a poor analogy to demonstrate my point. But I think the point is still valid.

There are relatively few points to purchase passes. Each pass is numbered and I doubt it takes more than a day to compile and report some numbers, even it takes another day to audit those numbers.

This is the problem with BLM. They have an accountability problem both with the users and OHV Division. If we were to run our business that way and could not account for numbers the IRS needs… well you know.

Hi All, We had a good meeting today. I won't even start a run down tonight as I am still trying to digest it myself. A few quick points though:

We have data through December 31 now. Documents will soon be available on the BLM and or TRT web site.

The visitatation numbers on the spreadsheet Vicki mentions is Gross counts. That is they DO NOT take into account any double, triple, quadruple drives over the traffic counters. There was major discussion to on how to adjust for these "over counts" that everyone agrees is occurring. Of course untilwe get a better understanding of gross counts vs actual this will impact the compliance calculations. You can bet there will be more to come on this.

The ISDRA TRT Dune Users Survey was approved by the TRT and BLM today. It will be live on the TRT web site soon. Watch this forum for the announcement. Print copies of the survey will follow. Still has some details to work out on that.

Has there been any discussion about using DUNERS, ASA and other OHV group volunteers (and documenting the hours put in) to help get the survey out to as many people as possible?

Indeed Perry, we all want accurate numbers of the sales. But from what I'm hearing and seeing; why does it take 45 days to report the sales numbers?

There are a few collection points that could easily provide data in less than a day, online sales should be able to provide results in less than a minute, and while I'm not sure that there are private business selling these permits, a report requirement of less than 7 days from the end of the business period should be adequate. Heck, new vehicle dealers have 7 days to submit these sales to DMV... or be in penalty.

I'm glad that BLM has provided the TRT the information and soon will disclose the information to the public (thanks Glenn ). But it sure occurs to me that the BLM "bean counters" are utilizing the usual mis-direction tactics that has caused concern by the public and the California OHV Division.

Vicki: Lets get together on a letter to Congressman Thomas and Pombo. When these folks ask questions, they get answers