There would, or should be, much more to a "TRT website" than just the polls and/or surveys.

The members of the TRT are not appointed by their fellow duners, they are appointed by the Bureau of Land Management. The TRT is, for all intents and purposes, a tool of the federal government.

In a perfect world it shouldn't matter who is sponsoring a website for a federally-appointed committee but this isn't a perfect world and apparently it does matter. If you don't think so, take a moment to ponder what would happen if DUNERS pushed to sponsor and manage the TRT website. Or SDORC or CORVA or YumaDuners.

The TRT is not an ASA, DUNERS, SDORC, CORVA or YumaDuners-appointed committee. None of those organizations should have the burden of operating and managing a website for a federally-appointed committee.

There's a better solution out there... let's find it.

Vicki

In the complex world regarding administration of BLM lands, it is all too easy to make a mistake about how things work. A TRT, chartered by BLM is an advisory council, with the intent of "helping the agency in the decisonmaking process".

In theory, this is a great tool. But in practice however... BLM often is just going through the motions.

Authorization and other matters for Technical Review Teams ("TRT") can be found by clicking on the link here: http://www.blm.gov/nhp/news/regulatory/3400-3420/1784.html

I've been on a few of these Teams in years past. It's a difficult and frustrating process that has well intended ambitions. The delivery of the recommendations by TRT members by BLM is usually lacking the desires of the public. Nothing binds BLM to make decisions and manage based upon the recommendations of the Team.

Saleaway

You have ranted and raved about the survey and business plan and just about everything else that the Blm and the trt and everything not assocciated with duners.
You always have so many questions and hidden insults towards those that do something, and its always after that something takes place and not before.

youre best at questions and insults and absolutelly no answers.

It almost seems like you are a shill planted in the audience to incite riots.

If you can do it better than do it but don't constantly insult those that are doing something constructive. If you have better ideas then write them down before hand rather than picking everything apart after they happen.

Those people on the TRt are working towards keeping the dunes open, if it's such a slanted group then why did chuck apply??

Tom:

In defense of ASA (which is rare for me) they took the advice of the first attorney firm they hired back in 2001 (after consulting for the name of a great environmental law firm from Mr. Ham) and contracted for the Olsen study. This was great news and the dividends will pay in the future.

Other OHV groups have joined ASA in the legal fight, but while losing one battle (do in my opinion) to a poor example case and legal advice to proceed with this case that was not thought out all too well... the outcome of the other legal challenges won't be seen until sometime this year. The legal approach is necessary and demands the help of all the groups.

I have a legislative approach I've been working on for some time. But until the groups decide to raise the kind of funds necessary for, and decide this approach is the way they want to go; we will not see any resolution on the issues of ISDRA.

The leadership of ALL OHV organizations that have a concern about the ISDRA need to get together and form a coalition and make a plan to succeed. We did this years ago with the California Desert Coalition to fight the desert Wilderness legislation. All funneled their energy and funds towards the Coalition effort and the bickering slowed down a bunch.

The ASA, SDORC and ORBA acted in "coalition" didn't they?

Some people can play well with others.

oh my.

Now Tom, see what you've done? Nice thread hijacking.

Please let's not get into a "my dad's bigger than your dad" match here. Steve's points were valid, Brian's points were valid. Progress has been made in some areas but we should all be able to admit that none has been made in other areas. Or maybe we can't.

Tom's questions were legitimate. If we could all dust those chips off our shoulders we might even see that they were devoid of blame throwing, unless you count the fingers we've pointed at ourselves.

How can we even begin to fix the problems if we can't allow a simple discussion without throwing blows?

Sheesh.

Vicki

[/QUOTE]

I have a legislative approach I've been working on for some time. But until the groups decide to raise the kind of funds necessary for, and decide this approach is the way they want to go; we will not see any resolution on the issues of ISDRA.

Phantom, by legislative approach am I to assume you are looking at writing legislation or hiring a political consultant ? What kind of funds are you talking about?

Over a month ago ASA ORBA SDORC and CORVA hired a full time political consultant in Washington DC. Your approach was never mentioned.

BTW a team of OHV leaders will be going to DC in Feb.

Brian, don't be so touchy. And don't think because you didn't or don't see it that all between those three groups has been touchy and lovey.

I hope the leaders of all organizations won't let the cheerleaders from any side undo any emerging hope of good will. Good things have been done by DUNERS and the ASA.

The real target here is the BLM's lack of good, accurate information, their unwillingness to really listen to the duning community in quite a few areas, the double speak, and general CYA mentality from some of the BLM mid level management. I could go on...

The TRT gets an A for effort for trying to come up with something. That doesn't change the result. An ambigous survey that basically sucks.

And not wanting the TRT website to be hosted and thereby giving the appearance of being slanted toward any one user group is a legitimate issue. It isn't a criticism of the group hosting the website. The out of hand dismissal that it just won't work might be.

Like it or not neither group cannot represent everyone. Some people don't feel their voice is considered nor presented by one or the other group. Some maybe neither. If a third group forms and people join that one, and they don't fall into lockstep with either of the two existing dune user groups are we all going to villify and attack them for speaking their mind as well? Probably.

Wow...
Vicki your right, I simply asked a question. I did not make my question group specific. I asked of ALL groups and orgs. There are many.

[QUOTE] Tom says
The real question is, what has any group or org done to keep Glamis open, improve Glamis, or make the duning experience more enjoyable for the duning community? Has any progress been made in re-opening the closures, reducing the fee's or improving the relationships between duners and non-duners (not D.U.N.E.Rs and non D.U.N.E.Rs)? How are we better now than before the Orgs or Groups started the fight?


Tom you ask some very legitimate questions . Sometimes its hard to see whats been done by any group as long as those signs are still up. I can say that is been a long hard road trying to unring that bell.

When I first got into this fight my first gut reaction was what the hell has CORVA ever opened up ? Maybe nothing is the answer but they sure have been plugging holes in the Dam for along time!!

I will answer some of your questions starting with the Nov 2000 closures .

ASA organized a huge flyer and body campaign to inform people about why we needed to stay out of the closures that first T-Day.

ASA orginized an effort to adequatly sign the closures

ASA consulted a law firm (just like duck says) looking for the silver bullit to reopen them. Guess what no silver bullit.

ASA spearheaded a info meeting campaign to educate duners about the up coming ramp process

Hope this answers some of your questions Tom
ASA spearheaded a professionally facilitated RAMP Group workshop process that no less than 8 orgs participated in.

ASA researched and hired the attorney that virtually all the groups currently retain. We also filed numerous suits against the BLM. and FWS.

ASA implemented a biological Study on the PMV . We are now into our 3rd yaer on.
We are very optimistic it will lead to a delisting on the PMV

The ASA has implemented a comprehensive Public safety program.

The ASA spearheaded a Media day in the dunes.

Tha ASA has political consultants in Sacremento as well as Washington DC

The list goes on and on.

Credit where credit is due !!! Most if not all the Bio studys and lawsuits where done as partnerships with SDORC and ORBA some included CORVA as well.

Grant, Just for th record, I wasnt questioning any group or org and certainly not the ASA. I know what has been done by the ASA by DUNERS and by the "friends Of" orgs. What I was wondering was does anyone else know. Or for that matter, do they even care. Do people realize the jobs being done.
Yes I understand, and I understand the "partnership" thing.
No accusations are being said or incinuated.

For the record Tom, I did not take your post as an insult.

I absolutly am optimistic that we are closer to getting those fricken signs down.

Say... it's fun seeing that many of those early ASA accomplishments were achieved with the help of the driving force behind DUNERS (no sillies, not just the leaders...look at a roster of our really active members). And that human chain thing around the closures... Very exciting.

As Grant pointed out, it's hard to define accomplishments on a bottom-line level. Look at DUNERS' trip to Sacramento last year. Did we leave with a note from anyone demanding that the dunes be reopened? No. But we built contacts that will support our fight.

DUNERS instituted a Junior Duners program that has been very successful and it looks like the concept is spreading to other sand areas. What's the bottom-line benefit of that? It doesn't lower the fees but maybe it helps keep future generations from getting caught in the same trap.

Information meetings by the score, anywhere and everywhere we can. Is there a bottom line to those? Perhaps it's good enough that there are some better informed people at the dunes because of them and fewer surprised visitors.

And the cleanup. Okay, so that is a bottom-line thing in one aspect... Glamis was sparkling that afternoon. But a successful event like that does so much more that can't be tallied to a bottom line. Better support from legislative officials, more informed duners, etc.

Hosting foreign exchange students (last year and one coming up)... fun, yes. Enlightening? Absolutely. Did it change the face of Glamis? No, but it changed the hearts of the people who were there, not just the foreign students but also their hosts. Changing one mind at a time is not such a bad thing.

We all have huge fights ahead of us and really very little behind us. It shouldn't matter how we choose to fight, whether it's in court or on a picket line. The important thing is that we continue to fight.

And not with each other.

Vicki

I've seen DUNERS members be very touchy about things and I'll remain so about the ASA.

No, I don't think the lawsuit orgs were all touchy-feely; quite the contrary. Yet, they did manage to hang together long enough to get this a long way.

It does seem (in this thread) that Glen (and the TRT) are being vilified. I have yet to see anyone come out and say "Hey TRT! Good job! Nice try! Keep it up!" in any thread anywhere.

Gotta remember this, the BLM will do whatever the eff it wants to.

Your right Jeff

Eff all the orgs

what a waste of the last 4 years of our lives

Eff all the orgs

I was being sarcastic. Climb down.

A little tense tonight. Maybe it is past someone's bed time and they are a little cranky.

Main Entry: sar·casm
Pronunciation: 'sär-"ka-z&m
Function: noun
Etymology: French or Late Latin; French sarcasme, from Late Latin sarcasmos, from Greek sarkasmos, from sarkazein to tear flesh, bite the lips in rage, sneer, from sark-, sarx flesh; probably akin to Avestan thwar&s- to cut
1 : a sharp and often satirical or ironic utterance designed to cut or give pain <tired of continual sarcasms>
2 a : a mode of satirical wit depending for its effect on bitter, caustic, and often ironic language that is usually directed against an individual b : the use or language of sarcasm <this is no time to indulge in sarcasm>
synonym see WIT

Don't worry, I'm not upset!

And it is past my bedtime when you consider I gotta get up at 3:30am! I am not morning people at all!

Grant:

This is not the place to have detailed discussions about what the leadership intends to do with the ISDRA issue. As to a consultant from DC, I'll have to discuss this with Ed.

The bottom line here is that the legal approach is a good one. The legislative approach is perhaps the best. But I'm wondering why we "hire" some consultant to tell us what some of the "gray beards" already know.

A former President of a very powerful local chapter of a national organization has a relative considered one of the finest lobby firms in DC. Hire the guy, and things will happen in a hurry.

You are correct Grant; CORVA has been "plugging" the holes for many years, with little help. If from the beginning folks would have jumped in on the issues both with their time and donations to the established groups, I suspect we would be a bit further along with resolution of the ISDRA issue.

Instead, like has happened before, some think they have a better way of doing things, and the support for the established institutions gets diluted. But now this is water under the bridge. Thus, my call for a formal Coalition... where we work together and the resources and credit is given to the Coalition, not organizations that compete for similar resources.

Grant, just think for a moment: If the enthusiasm and resources that ASA has available to them was dovetailed with the experience and know-how of some of the more established organizations; would we not have a better fighting force?

P.S. Sorry Vicki for being on the highjacked post airline, I'm frustrated at this moment, and I had to give my two cents here.

Well part of my point was that many things have been done to "set the seed" for the future of Glamis. While nothing has changed yet, many seeds have been laid by many groups for the future.

As for the TRT...hey how bout these Patriots huh?
Thats my 2 cents...

aphantomduck or phantom duck or steve what ever name you're using today. [personal attack] *** [/personal attack]. wake up and listen to what ed said. he said he didn't care of the dunes, he said he would crush the asa when it was forming because they were takeing away members and money. that was because he didn't do anything about the dunes. ed is in this thing for one reason he's trying to expand his wally world. ed's butt boy cronies say he strictly ohv but those that have listened to him realize that ed is in this thing for one reason "ed"

I'm afraid that if ed stopped suddenly, we would spend a week trying to pry you loose. open you eyes man and quit using the word leaders. saleaway isn't a leader, grant isn't a leader ed for sure isn't a leader. these are people that for one reason or another have been promoted of self appointed to a positon and in the case of ed he royally knighted himself. ed has publically stated that he doesn't care what the members of corva think because he knows better than them, come on. i quit corva because nothing had been done and nothing was going to be done as long as ed was the man in charge of that org.

I'm not a big duners fan but at least they are trying, not well, but trying.
you may not like the asa but so far, they have fronted a lot of money to fight the court battles and try to influencee politians and other public officials.

Mr. Valve:

You are so off base in most of your post and provide no evidence to back-up your allegations.

Anyone who knows me and my relationship with Ed Waldheim knows that for many years we had a MAJOR disagreement with the direction of CORVA. Details are not appropriate, but I have the utmost respect for Ed and state here flatly that he has given more in time, energy, and both in kind and direct financial support than ANYONE for the betterment of OHV opportunities here in California.

If Ed is so against dune opportunities, why then have Ed and CORVA contribute greatly to the Friends of Oceano Dunes and Dumont Dunes?

Did you know that there is an agreement between the OHV groups that ASA take the lead on the ISDRA issues? Perhaps this is why CORVA is not "front and center" on this one.

Any resolution yet on accurate numbers and such?

Myself included it seems we have all drifted somewhat off topic. It has been interesting skipping down memory lane and listening to everyone blow their horns but what is going on TODAY?

Ooops, your correct Jeff... I'm as guilty as any... let's correct the course of the ship.

I don't get your point here Brian. Are you saying that CORVA did not end up taking the lead on this issue?

My information is that CORVA ended up dealing with the 25,000 acre camping closure when the ASA was up to their eyeballs with PMV issues. Geez, I was sure I read it somewhere... maybe in the CORVA newsletter (a while ago) and I thought I saw it on a list of what the various OHV groups are handling not so long ago.

Like Grant said, credit where credit is due. Ed/CORVA seemed to be taking a beating and I thought it only fair that people should know that yes, even CORVA has been directly involved in ISDRA issues.

Unless you are saying that information is not correct?

Vicki

Nope, not saying your info was incorrect, CORVA did end up taking the lead on it, but the ASA started the lawsuit and by agreement turned it over to CORVA. I remember speaking to Jerry about this as I was concerned about it personally.

And, what I have been doing here, if you'll all notice, is not attacking or insulting any group/person/org here.

Was the money you speak of that ASA put into the Camping Closure at ISDRA helped by donations from ORBA?

Could it be that BRC, CA4WDC, SDORC, AMA District 37 and CORVA and others I can't recall at this moment, were consumed at the time with legal bills dealing with the ENTIRE CBD litigation, and needed ASA to take the lead on these issues from a financial stand point?

I'm sure CORVA appreciates and is grateful for the $ 7000.00 that ASA spent on this issue. As I am sure that you appreciate the nearly $ 120000.00 CORVA and District 37 AMA spent on the initial trial.

Sorry for getting off topic here Vicki, but I could not resist chimming in here.

I wrote exactly what I was told by Jerry.

I asked Jerry about this as I was told once that the ASA didn't do anything about the camping closures and the reason was that CORVA was already in place to take care of it. Jerry corrected me on it.

I apprieciate that CORVA took it over and kept it going, I was only stating that the ASA did take the initial lead in this suit and then turned it over to CORVA.

Where the money (the $7gs) came from I don't know; I was told the ASA spent the money. If ORBA contributed financially, well then, I don't know and really don't care.