What...people on this website don't want to know what's happening in the dunes? Thanks for the info, TroyB. Don't let the Queens of Denial get you down.

Interesting twist on the regulation. It makes no difference to me or anyone we're camping with, but it would be interesting to see this "condition" they've added in court.

Vicki

umm vicki doesnt it take one person to be in the rv? if someone is there? thats what this 72 hr thing is all about people parking rigs a week in advance and leaving them there

The head's up is appreciated Troy, but following that logic means that the four people I know who come out at Thanksgiving every year, for many years, and spend one of those days on a trip to Mexico, leaving in the weeeeeee hours of the morning and not returning until sometimes the weeeeeee hours the next day, has abandonded their rig?

What about the couple who, as a compromise to the female half of the duo, spends one night at the casino during their lengthy Glamis trip, while everyone else stays at camp? Is their rig unattended?

Or the ones that camp in the south dunes but spend nearly a full day away from camp visiting friends in the north dunes?

What about the couple who leaves their camp every night at about the same time, without fail, to visit the hot springs?

All of these things happen and what if these people happen to be targeted while they're at the hot springs, Mexico, the casino, off visiting, and then the BLM comes by again while they're just on a quick ride?

Who gets to decide how long people can be away from their camps? Who gets to decide how someone else recreates at Glamis?

But that's all small potatoes to me. To me, what really bugs me is...

In a time when we are scraping for every dime just to be able to monitor species so we don't lose another 50,000 acres, how can this be so important that we are willing to risk those acres by putting that money into meter maids instead?

Vicki

That's a helluva ride!!

Even though my rail is fuel injected, I don't even get that kind of fuel economy!

Do you just stop on a dune somewhere and lose track of... say 3 days? Is it always 4:20 there?

The proper term is "unattended"...

Now... what is the definition of "developed camping"?

Vicki

You're right. My decision IS dictated by others behavior...for a reason.

This snowball can keep rolling downhill if you want...

YOU can't go out to Competition after sundown because "a bunch of idiots" decided Glamis wasn't meant for riding in the dunes. Therefore, someone has restricted YOUR riding area because of some other groups behavior. Therefore, you ride different hills with your buddies instead of Comp. Right?

Let's say a family goes to the beach every weekend during the summer. Let's also say they've had the same camping spot for 20 years. If they show up and someone is in their camping spot, not in camp but out having fun, are they going to get pissed? Are they going to call the cops and have them towed because "they aren't around their camp"? Forget the 72 hour rule...bring your own pride into this one. Let's say they had a family emergency that only allowed them to take the "tow Saturn" home in a short amount of time. Should their rig be towed because they aren't occupying it? Would it make you feel better to get your spot back after having someone towed? I guess we need to start putting parking meters in Glamis to truly enforce this law...someone will bring that up I'm sure.

I went out to Painted Gorge the day after Thanksgiving with a bunch of friends to see what it was like. This group has been camping in the same spot for 35 YEARS! When they see someone camped in their spot, they go to another spot. They don't bitch and moan about someone's rig sitting there...abandonded or not. It's what they call, "The luck of the draw." No one called the rangers or any of that. They realized people have to do what they have to do (I wouldn't imagine hauling a fully loaded rig from LA to G EVERY week would be too fun, and yes, that is their choice to go that often). We had just as much fun with the abandonded rigs there as we would have without them.

I choose not to go out to G on big weekends cause I prefer to go on living. If I wanted to gamble with my life on whether some 500 hp buggy is gonna come over a dune and smash me or not, I'd be out there. But, when I have close calls on off weekends, common sense kicks in. None of us have radar.

So I us my motorhome to tow out my toy hauler trailer. I unhook my trailer to better level it, is one of them now abandoned and subject to tow or citation?

I have seen things like tags on the doors as a way of enforcing this, well, nothing requires you to open your door everyday to see if you have a tag on it. Nothing requires you to open your door if they knock, and nothing allows them to come in your vehicle to check for occupancy, so how do you prove in court that it was un-atteneded? That is thier obligation, not mine.

Well seems to me that if Jet is out there with 8 r.vs', they are attended.
I would guess that BLM is saying they are going to enforce this as a scare tactic, they have to know under exsisting law, they have little to no ability to enforce this.

Speaking for myself, that is absolutely not the case.

I happen support to the 14-day limit (although I don't think they should have to go 25 miles away... just another camping area... like move from Osborn to Pad 4 for instance or from Keyhole to Roadrunner).

Do I think a 14-day limit is enforceable at Glamis? Absolutely, but at what expense? That scares me.

Do I support the 72-hour rule? It's an ISDRA regulation so I have to support it. But I do not think it's appropriate at Glamis, mostly because of the uniqueness of Glamis recreation.

Do I think the 72-hour "unattended" rule is enforceable at Glamis? No, I do not, without tremendous expense.

The complaints I've heard seem to have more to do with people inhabiting the same space for the majority of the season and that has more to do with the 14-day limit than the 72-hour rule. I kinda think most of the griping will go away if the 14-day limit is enforced, but I could be wrong.

Now... do I want fees to increase to cover enforcing either of these regulations?

No, I do not.

Vicki

That's not what I mean, although I guess there is always a possibility of being away for longer... hospitalization, visiting friends in the south dunes, or even taking your buggy, your cooler, your pup tent and your significant other for an extended overnight(s) excluded rendesvouz. There is nothing in the rules to prohibit such a passtime.

What I mean is there are some people who don't do what we do... we put out picnic tables and tiki torches and for this holiday, a Christmas tree.

But some people come out with the bare minimum, cold sandwich fixins, a cooler, one chair. I've visited people, sat and chatted with them at the fire, whose campsite looked abandoned, er, unattended, while we sat there. Other than the groove of the gas can shifting sligthly, when they are out for a ride you cannot tell they are even camping there. Some people come to Glamis to ride, not to camp, and sometimes that's very obvious in their surroundings.

The uniqueness of our sport allows for the bare minimum and the absolute maximum and I think it's dangerous to leave such judgment calls up to Ranger Rick to decide that a bare minimum campsite is actually an unattended campsite. I do think it would take tremendous manpower for them to be able to prove that a person was gone for the entire 72 hours, with or without stickers or notices, but that's just my opinion.

I'm not saying they won't try it. All I'm saying is I think it's a great waste of manpower that I'm not willing to pay for.

Vicki

I camp in areas that are not already taken over by anybody. I try to get as far away from other camps as possible, regardless if it's occupied or not. This allows me to have as big of a fire as I want, music as loud as I want, rides whenever I want, yelling, and screaming whenever I want...you name it, it allows me to do whatever I want without disrupting anybody.
I'm not one of those yahoo's that comes out to cause trouble. I come to ride...and sleep.
The beach scenerio... I'm not really talking about umbrellas and towels. I'm talking about trailers. Have you ever driven down Interstate 5 by the San Onofre powerplant (Dolly Parton memorial)? I used to drive from San Clemente to Vista after work everyday. There are tons of "camping spots" along the beach south of the powerplant. I have personally seen the same trailers parked in the same spot for months. I've seen it with my own eyes for two years. There is FAR LESS camping there than in the dunes, yet people camp where they want for however long they want.
I hear where most of you are coming from despite how it may look. I'm not in favor of Glamis looking like a storage facility but, there are much bigger problems in the dunes. Whining about someones rig is energy that could be spent somewhere more...productive? At this point in time, I could care less how many rigs there are. What I care about is; do they all have passes, are they picking up EVERY piece of trash they brought in, are they participating in the cleanups, are they causing fights, etc., are their off road vehicles equipped with a whip so they don't kill people, are their bikes or cars registered, are they burning plastic like it's wood, are they doing drugs in front of you and your kids, are they shooting guns around camp...you know stuff that actually effects your life. There are much bigger fish to fry other than "he's been there for too long!"
It's kinda like me being at work, having 15 cars to finish in 8 hours, yet I'm worried about the trash on the ground. Sorry, I clean up when the jobs are done and all other things are taken care of.

Priorities my friend, priorities.

So, what is legally wrong with this?
And, as long as the 14 day rule is abided by, what's the big deal?

If someone does this and leaves their camp set up for more then 14 days then they've broken the law and will/should be evicted from Glamis.

Otherwise, they've abided by the letter of the 72hr rule. Their camp is not abandonded.

The Pastor

I don't know about you, but I go out to G to escape all the BS of the "Everyday World". If I wanted to play "tag" with Ranger Rick, I'd go to Yosemite or Yellowstone.
If I buy a trailer, that means I no longer have to worry about vandals, I have to worry about a "Babysitter" not allowing me to stay in the same place as well. I agree with Vicki all the way...how does the ranger know if your camp is "unattended" or not? I'm not gonna make a trip from Wash 11 to the Ranger station because some dumba$$ used a grave amount of misjudgement. Are they going to reimburse me for the gas because they effed up? NO. That's time and money that I don't want to waste on my Vacation. If I wanted to waste my time and money, I'd go drive my Integra. Instead, I go out to the desert where I can hit the top speed of my 250R, and pay $90 a year to do it without worrying about the repercussions...
There are many more underlying issues here, such as people wanting only the rangers to solve problems. Glamis would not have the laws today that it does if people didn't look the other way. If you see somebody doing something wrong, point it out and make them correct the problem. Advice from a Law Enforcement Officer isn't going to be absorbed as well as if it was from a fellow duner. However, maybe it is, that's why we need both sides working. If we don't stand up for ourselves, we're just gonna get walked all over. The troublemakers and the government have been doing it for years...hence all the BS laws and fees. I know you're worried about your family's safety and others, but they're slowly getting rid of our FAVORITE sport. Do something about it... and worry about that "abandoned" camp when all the checkpoints are gone.

My opinion..and you know what they say about those!

if they're going to consider 20 rigs "occupied" because there's a guy in a tent nearby that says he's watching them they may as well toss the 72 hour deal. would get no arguement from me.

I would babysit someones rig for $50 dollars a day.

Yep.

If and when (that's a mighty big if) the RAMP comes through as the draft was, Roadrunner is the test pilot for the reservation system. If it is successful (and the way the BLM defines success is no doubt way different from you and me), they will move on to a south dunes area.

You're right, whatever makes it easier to enforce is what they'll do. And because it is now abundantly obvious that this is a high priority issue, they'll be more than happy to lend a hand. Just one more step toward limiting capacity.

Gates at Glamis? Well, even those are in the RAMP.

They're called "mobile entry stations."

Vicki

Exactly my point.

Rather than getting all technical about what constitutes "unattended" and "how do you enforce it" and "it's gonna cost so much more", concentrate on THE PROBLEM.

Ranger Rick and others perceive it as the same rigs being out there for days at a time. By trying to act like it's not a problem (which honestly makes it appear as though one is guilty of the same or at the very least complicit in it) doesn't make it go away, nor does it get the message across to the abusers that it's not a good idea.

So I see it as an inevitability. Gecko/Roadrunner will eventually become paved, painted, overregulated and under a reservation system. By giving bureaucrats the impression that we need more regulation, they're happy to oblige. Discussing it on this board didn't bring it about. Parking your rig out there for weeks at a time did.

Scalpers will be the next issue up for discussion....

Actually, I've made it very clear how I feel about the regulation(s).

Does it really matter how I feel about the people violating the regulations?

Why is that so important?

Do you want me to say they are SCUM THEY SHOULD BE OUSTED THEY DON'T DESERVE THE SAND WE PLAY ON?

Well, I won't. It's not up to me to decide who deserves to play or who doesn't. Quite frankly, I am more concerned with the trash issue at Glamis than someone squatting on RoadRunner for the entire season.

And I'm more concerned with making sure the BLM is doing the conservation end of their job so that we don't lose another 50,000 acres than I am about whether they're towing someone out of a prime spot because someone feels left out.

Compliance bothers me too. When I follow behind a ranger, driving at a liesurely pace down Gecko Road on a Thursday afternoon and in the span of 2.5 miles I am able to count 14 "primary vehicles" with no pass displayed and no stops, let alone citations, were made, I guess my mind isn't on how long those rigs have been there.

My priorities do not include camping issues and I'm the first to admit that.

As for whether the BLM is totally to blame for Glamis woes, of course not.

I think most of the problems at Glamis are caused by the visitors (well, except for the issue that closed down all those acres and maybe a few others), but those problems that are not directly related to something the BLM is supposed to be doing are certainly compounded by the landlord's lack of proper management, and that is the BLM.

Vicki

Going after the easy targets and making money is what seems to be the motivation of the BLM in agressively enforcing certain laws. That or just shutting people out.