This past week @ ogibly we went riding. I have never been to ogibly b4. there was a section of the red closed markers that was not marked... 2 hours later we found ourselves returning from an awesome virgin sand ride. There was a few tracks, so we thought nothing of being in there... O well. It was fun while it lasted:)

Unfortunately, the improper marking of these closed areas is causing trouble for us duners.

Those areas are still closed and they are still off limits and the incursions are being documented by the anti-access bad guys, and they are using that to their advantage.

We can, of course, hope that the judge can see the closures are merely tools at this point but that's hoping for an awfully lot and the stakes are awfully high.

Vicki

Just a note:
It is my opinion that the longer this stuff gets drug out, the more "incursions" that will happen. You see, I feel that in general, the duning public saw the closures and said... "Ok, now lets get them removed. If staying out of there for a while will help then fine." But as time goes by the opinion is changing to: "Damn, when is this gonna end... ahhh screw 'em. I'm sick of all this bullcrap!"

The increase of incursions will be in direct proportion to the amount of time gone by. There is no way that the closures will ever be accepted like those north of 78.

The BLM should realize that there are a significant number of duners who will simply ignore this bullcrap closure and they had better do something....LIKE GET THEM OPEN!!!

BTW: I'm no lawyer but I've looked the law up and it definantly leaves a loophole. If you don't see a closure sign then you've not broken the law.

The Pastor

What was the fine? $100?
It's my understanding that the fine can be quite high and could even include jail time.

I understand that they will still write you up... but all it would take in court is some pictures of all of the fallen signs to convince a judge.

The Pastor

Other than accidental incursions, I don't think it's a good idea to intentionally enter the closed areas. It makes us all look bad. Except for some of the areas along the south of the closures, there may be expanses of sand that have no marking but there is usually a visible buggy trail with tracks on one side and virgin sand on the other. In the beginning we saw a lot of slalom tracks at the markers as a form of F-U. I've not seen much of this recently.
On a separate but similar issue, the rules and enforcement of these rules have increased due to people's lack of respect for those around them. The free-for-all needs to stop. We are starting to see Comp conditions arise at Olds already. I've seen duners already help put a stop to some of the activities like trench digging. We need to police ourselves and even tone down some of the exciting/crazy things we've done in the past in order to ease the pressure of the LEO's.
Just my $0.02

The LEO pressure will never be eased...
They are here to stay, as long as they are collecting their own money... count on it.

I gotta say, though, that a potential $100 fine is not much of a deterrant!

The Pastor

I've seen numerous temporary closure stakes laying flat on the ground. Earlier in the campaign, I used to pick them up to help in the situation. Now, Eff them. But I still don't go in the closed area. And every time I ride by them, there's no doubt i'm looking over at the virgin sand just wanting to mark my territory. Peace

They shoulda been down a long long time ago...This is one thing that Slap gets all mcflustered about...Milkvetch fine, closures still up...However, SailAway has told Slap that them enviro's (said with affection, cuz Slap is one) have a long list of plants and animals that they will sue over, and that just makes Slap wanna barf...

I can't even ride by the closures anymore, make me to sad! Besides all the virgin sand on the other side and the chop on my side, can't handle it, might go postal at a enviro-nazi-terrorist club meeting.

EFFIN middle closure ruins my line at least once a day.. EFFIN POS stupid freggin maggots.. They put that Shiat right in the middle of the best line going from China Wall to the back side of Olds.. Just hate it.. AND I always see people wadded up on those drop offs along the side..

CLOSURES.. Remember when Comp was to be "Closed on MAJOR HOLIDAY WEEKENDS"??? NOW look at the same sign.. "Major holiday" is no longer on the sigh. ALL WEEKENDS is what it says now.. Im about 100% positive that when it was originally closed it was to be closed on the 6 holiday weekends only..
WHEN did this change take place?

Has ANYTHING been opened at all to date in history?

I haven't seen comp closed even on semi-large weekends. We were up there the weekend after Christmass (which I expected the BLM to consider a "large weekend") and comp was open. No barriers, no lights, no LEO's.

I don't remember the signs ever specifying what weekend...which led to a lot of confusion and rumors.

BTW - remember the comp closure is not a BLM action (though they did little to fight it) but is courtsey of the Imperial Valley Board of Supervisers. It was an IV resolution that specifies when and why comp will be closed not anything from the BLM.

The sign has GOT to change. It's said "Closed from dusk to dawn" for far too long. It is quite clear that the BLM want people to think it's closed even when it's not.

And, as for it being an IVBOS thing, that is true... but the alligations were that the BLM actually encouraged this action, maybe even gave them the idea, since the BOS could make the change with the sweep of a pen but the BLM would have to actually follow some guidelines... like listen to the people first!

The closure: The reality is that the longer the closure is up the more people are going to say "eff it... I'm duning"... You can argue whether this is bad or good for the "cause" all day long but that is not going to change.

The signs are not visible in far too many places. A citation would NEVER hold up in court and any negative argument used by anyone stating that there are frequent incursions is easily negated and placed on the BLM's head with a simple video of all the fallen stakes.

Bottom line... recomend that people don't go in to the closure... but I will NEVER beat someone up over it if they decide to or accidently drive in the closure!!!

The Pastor

I've said since the "curfew" was enacted that I disagreed less with what was done than how it was done.

The ICBOS did not come up with this idea and then approach the BLM with it.

A Freedom of Information Act request would prove who asked for it, and so would a copy of the transcript from those long ago ICBOS meetings.

It's a moot point as far as the curfews now, but it is a valid concern when we consider the history and how aware we must all be.

Give me back my rose-colored glasses.

Vicki

Vicki, your's and my last two posts came in at the same time. (I had not read what you posted when I posted my last post)

I was fairly certain that what you said was true, that the BLM told the ICBOS to put up a cerfew. I was just more unsure then you are on that fact.



The Pastor

I spoke to Neil Hamada about the signs and he's checking and will get back to me. He confirmed that there should be ZERO signs up right now and when they are up, they are supposed to specify which weekends the curfew is in effect.

I'll update when I get one.

Does anyone have the opportunity to get a picture of the sign?

Vicki

I remember something like 8 or 9 months ago, there was a great deal of talk about a stake pulling party.

What ever happened to this? There are a few things rattling around in my head.


1. Stake pulling party.

2. Boycott the Glamis Beach store.

3. Duners need to take ownership of the dunes. No trench diggers, no punks, NO TRASH!

4. I'd like to see a daily satellite photo of the closed areas (especially North of 78) for the last yr. I'll bet dollars to donuts there isn't a single hiker to be seen anywhere in the dunes, ever.

I think it's time we quit taking a defensive stance and go on the offensive.

1. Initiate investigations into impropriety, malfeasance, etc against ALL organizations that oppose us.
2. Discredit ALL of their "science".
3. Get strong public sentiment thru positive articles about motorsports in the dunes on as many media outlets as possible, emphasize the family angle.
4. Enlist the motorcycle/motorsports industry to bankroll an ad campaign to raise public awareness about the millions of dollars of taxpayers' money wasted by these enviro whackjobs and all of the acres of PUBLIC LAND that they have closed off to the public.

There are some persuasive, persistent people involved in our cause. I'd like to see them turn their attention to fighting this like a war. Get bigger, stronger allies than your opponent, then crush them with no mercy. Get industry support - big money, strong allies, politicians who want to or will be forced to vote the way we want.

Of course a few yrs ago, my answer would have been to kill them all, so I AM making significant progress...

I have pics of many hikers in the dunes.. Its called the annual golf tourney!!!!!

Yep, that sure is inconsistent.

Gee, I wonder what new information was learned that may have helped me change my stance? Thomas, maybe you can help me figure out this puzzle.

Let's see... there was this meeting that had Greg Thomsen in it, and us, and we were told one thing and we formed an opinion based on what we were told.

And then gosh, maybe we learned other information later on.

We've learned a lot since then. Heck, we've learned a lot since this fight began.

Oh my goodness. Yep, you sure got me there. Guess I changed my tune.

Give my mom a call... I think she may resent me for the time when I was six and said I was going to be a doctor when I grew up. You guys can commiserate.

Vicki

Sorry about the sarcasm but geez Louise, the time and energy that has been expended just to prove that I formed an opinion, voiced it, acted on it, then learned from it and changed direction just boggles my mind.

I believe even the consistent VOR has done that same thing... he's certainly entitled to. Actually, I kinda hope we all could do that more often instead of just sticking our fingers in our ears and humming loudly when we don't want to hear something that doesn't jive with what we "know."

Consistency is important.

Learning from each other and our mistakes is also important.

Learning to stop fighting each other and turn the heat on the ones who caused the closures would be really dandy.

Vicki

nooO!

Was in G this Weekend, and at Vicky’s post/suggestion above we drove by the closures, in fact we drove around the whole center closer and the north side of big closure. and your right, many of the markers are missing! Although the north boundary was well followed, the center one was easily lost, and incursion into the closer was inevitable.



So I usually buy the ASA rhetoric, donate money, been to all the clean ups, (except for the last one, sorry wont let it happen again) and had faith that the closures would be down by now? I always thought Vor/ Pastor views were a little on the militant side, and a simi angry vent. (Sorry Vor, only going by what I've read over the last few years) But I'm starting to think he may have some valid points, especially on making a stand


So let have a protest how about 1000, or more peeps holding out in the center closure, with media coverage! I'll go & pay my fine, hell take me, my wife and child to jail! Now wouldn’t that be a Kodak moment

Of course for this to work it would have to be massive, putting a face of peaceful families, protesting a broken system that’s eroding family value's, and not reckless, and violent peeps.

Staying out of the closures isn't about fines and breaking the law.

It's about a little clause in the CBD lawsuit that says as long as the closures are not ignored they'll hold off on any more lawsuits.

Hell, we already know they're going to sue as soon as the closures eventually are removed (though anyone who thought they'd be down by now is WAY too optimistic - this is the federal government we're dealing with things take a LONG time to get done when they're easy and this one isn't easy!) and people are already preparing for that.

We don't need to make the fight any harder by giving them cause to sue again before the current closures are down. That just plays into their "take half then take half again and repeat" game plan.

Right now they can't sue for more closures without breaking their side of the settlement agreement - unless people start riding in there. It's one of the few "wins" for our side in the settlement.

Mark this date down... May 31st. The day USFWS has to decide if the Peirson's Milk Vetch gets de-listed. Within a week it should be in the Fed. Register for the world to see that "real" science wins again.


You do have a calendar right??? If not get one here from one of the organizations that is making this happen. This can only happen if funds are raised to have great lawyers and representation where it matters.

http://www.americansandassociation.org/store/

keepin my fingers crossed

Still EFFIN closed in my book.. Hope for the effin best but they just keep closing more and more and more..

Believe me, I've considered a "protest" of this type...
But, I believe that there is the possibility of very large fines and even jail time. I'm certain that if anything was done like this then the maximum would be levied... It wouldn't be a matter of paying a simple $100 fine.

Ok, So the FWS decides to delist the PMV... What makes you think this will cause the closures to be lifted?

Bottom line, the dunes are closed...
I'll believe they are open when I can dune there.

The Pastor

In otherwords, ... Work with the system so it can delay it for as long as possible and hopefully duners will forget about the closure...

I don't know about the rest of you but I'm pretty sick and tired of hearing... "procedures will have to be followed"

Procedures are not getting our dunes open.

If we have to follow procedures then so do they... The law states that if there is no sign then there is no closure. If the BLM want to keep people out of there then they had better get their ass in gear and get the signs put back up... (and don't even think of asking me to help!)

The Pastor

So you think that if 1000 peeps are having a non violent sit in protest, The BLM, National Guard, LE will cart off all toughs folks with max fines and jail terms?

I don't think so, or Green peace wouldn’t have boats in the harbors all the time!

A Non Violent group of family protesting blatant ESA abuse would bring more publicity to this subject, we could get some pretty good media coverage!

The center closer was insisted on just to piss us off, burns my a$$

Make this an election issue,

ASA don't hire more lawyers, hire a publicists!

Now you're giving me an idea... I can see it forming...

Hmmm... A party in the closure... lots of wine - women - and song!!! BLM (and everyone else) leave the vehicles at the gate!

Hafta get some security... would suck to get some buggies stolen...

Will have to give this some thought!

The Pastor