I understand what your goals are, and I think I understand what your basic strategy is.
I still support the organization, but to be quite honest, there hasn't been anything to celebrate yet.
I heard an attorney say that although 78% of the population wants to ban assault rifles, and all of the Republicans and all of the Democrats want to ban assault rifles, the ban on assault rifles was allowed to lapse for one simple reason.
The NRA is so powerful on Capitol Hill that no legislator dares oppose them, for fear of getting buried in the next election.
Now the NRA is another org that I support. The crucial difference being, their success rate. They have a different business model. They do get grass roots support and funding from members, but they also get the vast majority of their funding from those whose livelihoods depend on selling weapons. Gun manufacturers.
With that kind of funding, they have the power to wield extreme pressure on the Hill to get what they want. They don't go toe to toe with every single little lawsuit that comes along, they get the laws changed to something resembling logic.
Perhaps if the ASA approached all of the truck mfrs, the toyhauler mfrs, the sandrail mfrs, the motorcycle, quad, UTV mfrs, and explained to them that we are in dire straits, if something isn't done soon, there will be nowhere to ride, and nothing to sell.
With that kind of support, the ASA could possibly be as respected and as successful at getting the ESA repealed as the NRA has been with their pursuits.
It seems obvious to me that the current strategy has not been successful. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. So, perhaps a change of strategy is in order.
JMHO.
Full Version: I Have A Suggestion For The Asa...
I would hope that the ASA has already tried to approach these Companies... But with today's economy do you think any of these Companies are going to have the cash to donate? Many are in trouble, GM, Ford, WW, Sandrail mfrs, etc are all struggling and even some have closed.
Good suggestions but I doubt Chevy and Ford, etc would help. It would make them look like they are anti-green which would hurt sales even more.
Same applied to Honda, yami, etc etc. Crazy I know!
Same applied to Honda, yami, etc etc. Crazy I know!
OH NO....you did it now
Your questioning the ASA's tatics
Your questioning the ASA's tatics
Burning the midnight oil??? 1:53am 
I agree with you, ASA needs big money to make the fight!!! Not the little donation they get from their members. Even if there are 3 million people that go to the dunes (I have no idea on the #) and every person donated $1, that's really not that much $ in the big picture.
NRA member here too!!!
I agree with you, ASA needs big money to make the fight!!! Not the little donation they get from their members. Even if there are 3 million people that go to the dunes (I have no idea on the #) and every person donated $1, that's really not that much $ in the big picture.
NRA member here too!!!
Oh wait I can see it now the fingers are already pointing to DUNERS.ORG
Steve, Steve, Steve...
QUOTE (WildBill @ Oct 30 2008, 07:25 AM) 
Steve, Steve, Steve...
Billy, Billy, Billy...
Is there some flaw in my logic? I'm a firm believer in going with what works. (Especially after trying out u-joint axles.
)The NRA has figured out how to fight and win, and I'm just suggesting that if they want to be successful, follow the same strategy. I know they are trying hard. I'm interested in winning the fight to save the dunes, which is not to be confused with trying really hard.
i would LOVE to see any kind of response from an ASA rep here.
THANK YOU.
THANK YOU.
The NRA has ~ 4 million members, or 1.4% of the US population. That's a big enough number that they have clout but it's a tiny percentage of actual gun owners. The aren't 4 million duners in the whole country, and 1.4% of duners is a tiny amount. Just sayin'...
I do agree that sometimes a change of strategy can be a good thing. But you need the people and $$$ to execute whatever strategy it is.
I do agree that sometimes a change of strategy can be a good thing. But you need the people and $$$ to execute whatever strategy it is.
QUOTE (KingGlamis @ Oct 30 2008, 11:56 AM)
The NRA has ~ 4 million members, or 1.4% of the US population. That's a big enough number that they have clout but it's a tiny percentage of actual gun owners. The aren't 4 million duners in the whole country, and 1.4% of duners is a tiny amount. Just sayin'...
I do agree that sometimes a change of strategy can be a good thing. But you need the people and $$$ to execute whatever strategy it is.
I do agree that sometimes a change of strategy can be a good thing. But you need the people and $$$ to execute whatever strategy it is.
As I stated in my post, the NRA weilds it's clout on Capitol Hill through sheer intimidation, via lobbyists and the ability to throw large sums of money behind the candidate of their choice, and thus against the candidate that they oppose.
The actual numbers of gun owners isn't really the issue. I don't think it's necessary to say "we have 4 million members" if we can say "We have $4 million we can use to support your campaign, or the other guy's campaign."
Once again, since the NRA gets the majority of it's money from the deep pockets of the gun mfrs (who stand to lose the most from anti-gun legislation), then it looks like this model works much better than the current "membership financed" approach.
QUOTE (socaldmax @ Oct 30 2008, 01:53 AM)
I understand what your goals are, and I think I understand what your basic strategy is.
I still support the organization, but to be quite honest, there hasn't been anything to celebrate yet.
I heard an attorney say that although 78% of the population wants to ban assault rifles, and all of the Republicans and all of the Democrats want to ban assault rifles, the ban on assault rifles was allowed to lapse for one simple reason.
The NRA is so powerful on Capitol Hill that no legislator dares oppose them, for fear of getting buried in the next election.
Now the NRA is another org that I support. The crucial difference being, their success rate. They have a different business model. They do get grass roots support and funding from members, but they also get the vast majority of their funding from those whose livelihoods depend on selling weapons. Gun manufacturers.
With that kind of funding, they have the power to wield extreme pressure on the Hill to get what they want. They don't go toe to toe with every single little lawsuit that comes along, they get the laws changed to something resembling logic.
Perhaps if the ASA approached all of the truck mfrs, the toyhauler mfrs, the sandrail mfrs, the motorcycle, quad, UTV mfrs, and explained to them that we are in dire straits, if something isn't done soon, there will be nowhere to ride, and nothing to sell.
With that kind of support, the ASA could possibly be as respected and as successful at getting the ESA repealed as the NRA has been with their pursuits.
It seems obvious to me that the current strategy has not been successful. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. So, perhaps a change of strategy is in order.
JMHO.
I still support the organization, but to be quite honest, there hasn't been anything to celebrate yet.
I heard an attorney say that although 78% of the population wants to ban assault rifles, and all of the Republicans and all of the Democrats want to ban assault rifles, the ban on assault rifles was allowed to lapse for one simple reason.
The NRA is so powerful on Capitol Hill that no legislator dares oppose them, for fear of getting buried in the next election.
Now the NRA is another org that I support. The crucial difference being, their success rate. They have a different business model. They do get grass roots support and funding from members, but they also get the vast majority of their funding from those whose livelihoods depend on selling weapons. Gun manufacturers.
With that kind of funding, they have the power to wield extreme pressure on the Hill to get what they want. They don't go toe to toe with every single little lawsuit that comes along, they get the laws changed to something resembling logic.
Perhaps if the ASA approached all of the truck mfrs, the toyhauler mfrs, the sandrail mfrs, the motorcycle, quad, UTV mfrs, and explained to them that we are in dire straits, if something isn't done soon, there will be nowhere to ride, and nothing to sell.
With that kind of support, the ASA could possibly be as respected and as successful at getting the ESA repealed as the NRA has been with their pursuits.
It seems obvious to me that the current strategy has not been successful. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. So, perhaps a change of strategy is in order.
JMHO.
Thats a great suggestion Steve.
Let's get you signed up and leading that effort.
I know for a fact the ASA will appreciate your dedication on this or any efforts.
Involvement and actual "Help" on things...ANYTHING...is what will be the ASA's greatest tool.
QUOTE (Crusty @ Oct 30 2008, 12:12 PM)
QUOTE (socaldmax @ Oct 30 2008, 01:53 AM)
I understand what your goals are, and I think I understand what your basic strategy is.
I still support the organization, but to be quite honest, there hasn't been anything to celebrate yet.
I heard an attorney say that although 78% of the population wants to ban assault rifles, and all of the Republicans and all of the Democrats want to ban assault rifles, the ban on assault rifles was allowed to lapse for one simple reason.
The NRA is so powerful on Capitol Hill that no legislator dares oppose them, for fear of getting buried in the next election.
Now the NRA is another org that I support. The crucial difference being, their success rate. They have a different business model. They do get grass roots support and funding from members, but they also get the vast majority of their funding from those whose livelihoods depend on selling weapons. Gun manufacturers.
With that kind of funding, they have the power to wield extreme pressure on the Hill to get what they want. They don't go toe to toe with every single little lawsuit that comes along, they get the laws changed to something resembling logic.
Perhaps if the ASA approached all of the truck mfrs, the toyhauler mfrs, the sandrail mfrs, the motorcycle, quad, UTV mfrs, and explained to them that we are in dire straits, if something isn't done soon, there will be nowhere to ride, and nothing to sell.
With that kind of support, the ASA could possibly be as respected and as successful at getting the ESA repealed as the NRA has been with their pursuits.
It seems obvious to me that the current strategy has not been successful. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. So, perhaps a change of strategy is in order.
JMHO.
I still support the organization, but to be quite honest, there hasn't been anything to celebrate yet.
I heard an attorney say that although 78% of the population wants to ban assault rifles, and all of the Republicans and all of the Democrats want to ban assault rifles, the ban on assault rifles was allowed to lapse for one simple reason.
The NRA is so powerful on Capitol Hill that no legislator dares oppose them, for fear of getting buried in the next election.
Now the NRA is another org that I support. The crucial difference being, their success rate. They have a different business model. They do get grass roots support and funding from members, but they also get the vast majority of their funding from those whose livelihoods depend on selling weapons. Gun manufacturers.
With that kind of funding, they have the power to wield extreme pressure on the Hill to get what they want. They don't go toe to toe with every single little lawsuit that comes along, they get the laws changed to something resembling logic.
Perhaps if the ASA approached all of the truck mfrs, the toyhauler mfrs, the sandrail mfrs, the motorcycle, quad, UTV mfrs, and explained to them that we are in dire straits, if something isn't done soon, there will be nowhere to ride, and nothing to sell.
With that kind of support, the ASA could possibly be as respected and as successful at getting the ESA repealed as the NRA has been with their pursuits.
It seems obvious to me that the current strategy has not been successful. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. So, perhaps a change of strategy is in order.
JMHO.
Thats a great suggestion Steve.
Let's get you signed up and leading that effort.
I know for a fact the ASA will appreciate your dedication on this or any efforts.
Involvement and actual "Help" on things...ANYTHING...is what will be the ASA's greatest tool.
That's very thoughtful of you Crusty.
But since you are so much better at getting your point across and far more charismatic than I, it really looks like you'd be a much better candidate to head this up.
Congratulations!
QUOTE (socaldmax @ Oct 30 2008, 10:54 AM)
QUOTE (WildBill @ Oct 30 2008, 07:25 AM)
Steve, Steve, Steve...
Billy, Billy, Billy...
Is there some flaw in my logic? I'm a firm believer in going with what works. (Especially after trying out u-joint axles.
)The NRA has figured out how to fight and win, and I'm just suggesting that if they want to be successful, follow the same strategy. I know they are trying hard. I'm interested in winning the fight to save the dunes, which is not to be confused with trying really hard.
For once its actually good logic, but like Mike said, the big 3 will never step up to the plate with any kinna real money. the ASA has TONS of off-road business suporters, and has had for many a year. but you all have to remember, we (the off-road community) are a total minority in the big scheme of things.
here's an example of how silly this kinna stuff really is...
Take REI, they deal in outdoor activities. guess who they give the big bucks to??? the CBD and sierra club, thats who!!! it eff*ing incredable!!! and the list goes on and on of companies that you would THINK would be against these two entities, but hand them cash in fist.
we are, and always will be, fighting an uphill battle. and here in democratic CA, the odds are NOT in our favor.
http://www.dunesafe.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=555
Click that link to check out just a small list of anti-access groups that are out there. Click on any one of the links in that list, and you'll see what I'm talking about!!! The money they bring in is unreal, there is no way to compete with it. The ASA does the best they can, but there are on the bottom part of the food chain...
here's a good one for ya: this group operates only in CA, check out THEIR list of suporters!!!
http://www.californiawild.org/about/our-supporters
Acterra
Alameda Creek Alliance
American Fisheries Society -California Nevada Chapter
American Land Conservancy
American Lands Alliance
American River Wildlands
American Wilderness Coalition
Animal Wellness Rescue
A.S. Chico Environmental Affairs Council
California League of Conservation Voters
California Native Plant Society
California Native Plant Society - Bristlecone Chapter
California Native Plant Society - San Diego Chapter
California Oak Foundation
California Outdoors
California Wilderness Coalition
Californians Against Waste
Californians for Western Wilderness
CalTrout
Center for Biological Diversity
Center for Community Action and Environmental Justice
Central Sierra Environmental Resource Center
Citizens for the Chuckwalla Valley
Clavey River Preservation Coalition
Coalition for Clean Air
Committee to Save the Kings River
Defenders of Wildlife
Earth Island Institute
Environmental Action & Resource Center CSU, Chico
Environmental Center of San Luis Obispo County - ECOSLO
Environmental Defense Center
Environmental Ministries of Southern California
Environmental Priorities Network
Environmental Task Force - First Unitarian Universalist Church
Foothill Conservancy
Forest Issues Group
Forests Forever
Friends of Hope Valley
Friends of Pole Creek
Friends of Tahoe National Forest
Friends of the Earth
Friends of the Eel River
Friends of Famosa Slough
Friends of the Inyo
Friends of the River
Friends of the Santa Clara River
Friends of the Tecate Cypress
Friends of the Trinity River
Friends of Tuolumne Berkeley Camp
Klamath Forest Alliance
LandWatch Monterey County
Mendocino Environmental Center
Mono Lake Committee
Mountain Lion Foundation
National Environmental Trust
National Hispanic Environmental Council
National Wildlife Federation
Natural Resources Defense Council
North Coast Environmental Council
Ocean Conservation Society
Ocean Revolution
Planning & Conservation League
Plumas Forest Project
Republicans for Environmental Protection (REP America)
Sacramento River Preservation Trust
Santa Clarita Casting Club
Santa Clarita Organization for Planning & the Environment
Santa Clarita Watershed Recreation and Conservation Authority
Santa Monica Mountains Conservancy
San Bruno Mountain Watch
Sierra Club
Sierra Nevada Alliance
Southern California Watershed Alliance
Smith River Alliance
South Coast Wildlands Project
South Fork Trinity River Land Conservancy
South Yuba River Citizens League
The Center for Sierra Nevada Conservation
The Trust for Public Land
The Wilderness Society
Town Hall Coalition
Trout Unlimited
Tule River Conservancy
Tuolumne River Preservation Trust
Ventana Wilderness Alliance
Watershed Network of California
Wilderness 4 All
Wilderness Press
Wildlands CPR
Watershed Education Summit
Women's Environmental Watch
Wildlife Corridor Conservation Authority
World Stewardship Institute
Yuba River Wildlands Campaign
Outdoor Industry and Organizations
Adventure 16, Inc.
Adventure Connection
Ahwahnee Whitewater
All-Outdoors California Rafting
American Alpine Club - Sierra Nevada Section
American Canoe Association
American Hiking Society
American Sports Group
American Travel World
American Whitewater Affiliation
ARTA River Trips
Atlas Snow-shoe Company
Aurora River Adventures
Backpacker's Pantry, Inc.
Back Country Coalition
Barnabus Treks: Outdoor High Adventure Ministry
California Alpine Club
California Canoe & Kayak
California Fly Fisher Magazine
Camp Unalayee
Chaco Sandals
Chico Paddleheads
Eagle Creek Travel Gear
Eagle Lake Campers Association
Earth Skills
Ecology Center for Southern California
Federation of Fly Fishers - Northern California Council
Fuel for Adventure
Gary Bulla's Flyfishing Adventures
Genesis Ventures
Golden Trout Wilderness Protection League
Great Old Broads for Wilderness
Heads Up: Therapy on Horseback
Hidden Lakes Sierra Education Center
High Sierra Hikers Association
Habitat Works
Hills For Everyone
Kings River Expeditions
Kokatat Water Sports Wear
Lotus Designs
Marin Canoe Club
Montrail
Mother Lode River Center
Mountain Hardwear, Inc.
Paco's Truckee Bike & Ski
Paddler Magazine
Patagonia, Inc.
Placerita Canyon Nature Center Associates
Quantum Rock Extreme Sports
Racegirl International
River Dancers
River Travel Center
Royal Robbins Outdoor & Travel Clothing
Sequoia Paddling Club
Shaver Lake Sports
Sierra Outdoor Center
Sunrise Ski-Snowboard Rental
Synergia Learning Ventures
The Bar 717 Ranch Inc. - Camp Trinity
The Fly Shop, Redding, CA
The North Face
Trails Illustrated/National Geographic Maps
Tributary Whitewater Tours
Turtle River Rafting Company
Valencia Wellness Center
Watershed Education Summit
Whitewater Connection
Whitewater Voyages
Zephyr Whitewater
Businesses
Flannel Design
Hillside Farms
Inland Valley Trust
International Wine & Liquor
Kennan Ward Photography
Keoki Flagg Photographics
New Leaf Paper
Outside Interests
San Dimas Grain
Lisa's Central Market
Sky Blue Realty
Sam Roberts Photography
Scandia Down
Tahoe Country
Truckee Downtown Merchants Association
Winner & Associates
Wolf and Associates
Faith Groups
Christians Caring for Creation
Religious Campaign for Forest Conservation
Shalom Nature Center
Southern California Ecumenical Council
Southern California Ecumenical Council - Ecology Task Force
United Methodist Church of Whittier
Miscellaneous
California Congress of Seniors
Gray Panthers of Sacramento
Lake Tahoe Realty
United Steelworkers of America, District 12
Wishtoyo Foundation
Valencia Wellness Center
http://www.californiawild.org/about/our-supporters
Acterra
Alameda Creek Alliance
American Fisheries Society -California Nevada Chapter
American Land Conservancy
American Lands Alliance
American River Wildlands
American Wilderness Coalition
Animal Wellness Rescue
A.S. Chico Environmental Affairs Council
California League of Conservation Voters
California Native Plant Society
California Native Plant Society - Bristlecone Chapter
California Native Plant Society - San Diego Chapter
California Oak Foundation
California Outdoors
California Wilderness Coalition
Californians Against Waste
Californians for Western Wilderness
CalTrout
Center for Biological Diversity
Center for Community Action and Environmental Justice
Central Sierra Environmental Resource Center
Citizens for the Chuckwalla Valley
Clavey River Preservation Coalition
Coalition for Clean Air
Committee to Save the Kings River
Defenders of Wildlife
Earth Island Institute
Environmental Action & Resource Center CSU, Chico
Environmental Center of San Luis Obispo County - ECOSLO
Environmental Defense Center
Environmental Ministries of Southern California
Environmental Priorities Network
Environmental Task Force - First Unitarian Universalist Church
Foothill Conservancy
Forest Issues Group
Forests Forever
Friends of Hope Valley
Friends of Pole Creek
Friends of Tahoe National Forest
Friends of the Earth
Friends of the Eel River
Friends of Famosa Slough
Friends of the Inyo
Friends of the River
Friends of the Santa Clara River
Friends of the Tecate Cypress
Friends of the Trinity River
Friends of Tuolumne Berkeley Camp
Klamath Forest Alliance
LandWatch Monterey County
Mendocino Environmental Center
Mono Lake Committee
Mountain Lion Foundation
National Environmental Trust
National Hispanic Environmental Council
National Wildlife Federation
Natural Resources Defense Council
North Coast Environmental Council
Ocean Conservation Society
Ocean Revolution
Planning & Conservation League
Plumas Forest Project
Republicans for Environmental Protection (REP America)
Sacramento River Preservation Trust
Santa Clarita Casting Club
Santa Clarita Organization for Planning & the Environment
Santa Clarita Watershed Recreation and Conservation Authority
Santa Monica Mountains Conservancy
San Bruno Mountain Watch
Sierra Club
Sierra Nevada Alliance
Southern California Watershed Alliance
Smith River Alliance
South Coast Wildlands Project
South Fork Trinity River Land Conservancy
South Yuba River Citizens League
The Center for Sierra Nevada Conservation
The Trust for Public Land
The Wilderness Society
Town Hall Coalition
Trout Unlimited
Tule River Conservancy
Tuolumne River Preservation Trust
Ventana Wilderness Alliance
Watershed Network of California
Wilderness 4 All
Wilderness Press
Wildlands CPR
Watershed Education Summit
Women's Environmental Watch
Wildlife Corridor Conservation Authority
World Stewardship Institute
Yuba River Wildlands Campaign
Outdoor Industry and Organizations
Adventure 16, Inc.
Adventure Connection
Ahwahnee Whitewater
All-Outdoors California Rafting
American Alpine Club - Sierra Nevada Section
American Canoe Association
American Hiking Society
American Sports Group
American Travel World
American Whitewater Affiliation
ARTA River Trips
Atlas Snow-shoe Company
Aurora River Adventures
Backpacker's Pantry, Inc.
Back Country Coalition
Barnabus Treks: Outdoor High Adventure Ministry
California Alpine Club
California Canoe & Kayak
California Fly Fisher Magazine
Camp Unalayee
Chaco Sandals
Chico Paddleheads
Eagle Creek Travel Gear
Eagle Lake Campers Association
Earth Skills
Ecology Center for Southern California
Federation of Fly Fishers - Northern California Council
Fuel for Adventure
Gary Bulla's Flyfishing Adventures
Genesis Ventures
Golden Trout Wilderness Protection League
Great Old Broads for Wilderness
Heads Up: Therapy on Horseback
Hidden Lakes Sierra Education Center
High Sierra Hikers Association
Habitat Works
Hills For Everyone
Kings River Expeditions
Kokatat Water Sports Wear
Lotus Designs
Marin Canoe Club
Montrail
Mother Lode River Center
Mountain Hardwear, Inc.
Paco's Truckee Bike & Ski
Paddler Magazine
Patagonia, Inc.
Placerita Canyon Nature Center Associates
Quantum Rock Extreme Sports
Racegirl International
River Dancers
River Travel Center
Royal Robbins Outdoor & Travel Clothing
Sequoia Paddling Club
Shaver Lake Sports
Sierra Outdoor Center
Sunrise Ski-Snowboard Rental
Synergia Learning Ventures
The Bar 717 Ranch Inc. - Camp Trinity
The Fly Shop, Redding, CA
The North Face
Trails Illustrated/National Geographic Maps
Tributary Whitewater Tours
Turtle River Rafting Company
Valencia Wellness Center
Watershed Education Summit
Whitewater Connection
Whitewater Voyages
Zephyr Whitewater
Businesses
Flannel Design
Hillside Farms
Inland Valley Trust
International Wine & Liquor
Kennan Ward Photography
Keoki Flagg Photographics
New Leaf Paper
Outside Interests
San Dimas Grain
Lisa's Central Market
Sky Blue Realty
Sam Roberts Photography
Scandia Down
Tahoe Country
Truckee Downtown Merchants Association
Winner & Associates
Wolf and Associates
Faith Groups
Christians Caring for Creation
Religious Campaign for Forest Conservation
Shalom Nature Center
Southern California Ecumenical Council
Southern California Ecumenical Council - Ecology Task Force
United Methodist Church of Whittier
Miscellaneous
California Congress of Seniors
Gray Panthers of Sacramento
Lake Tahoe Realty
United Steelworkers of America, District 12
Wishtoyo Foundation
Valencia Wellness Center
here is the list of ASA suporters, lest you think they dont have any!!!
http://www.americansandassociation.org/sponsors.php
(i cant copy and past the list, you have to go check it out!)
http://www.americansandassociation.org/sponsors.php
(i cant copy and past the list, you have to go check it out!)
I haven't seen the hard numbers in awhile. But the ASA is hardly membership supported and ignoring businesses as Steve seems to be implying.
Donations and sponsorships from businesses IS where the ASA gets a good chunk of their cash from, more I'd be willing to guess than it does from membership.
But good luck getting the big companies like GM and Honda to pony up the kind of cash Steve seems to think is out there for the asking. Some of the big companies do get involved...but we're such a small drop in the bucket to them and they're so concerned about appearing green that their involvement is minimal.
There are also things like the CORVA action program that get manufacturers involved and helps fund some of the fight.
Yes - the fight needs to be taken to capital hill. But as Steve has pointed it out it's extremely expensive. If anyone has a way to get the big companies to start donating more I'd love to hear it. But like Doug pointed out we're a drop in the bucket to them.
Donations and sponsorships from businesses IS where the ASA gets a good chunk of their cash from, more I'd be willing to guess than it does from membership.
But good luck getting the big companies like GM and Honda to pony up the kind of cash Steve seems to think is out there for the asking. Some of the big companies do get involved...but we're such a small drop in the bucket to them and they're so concerned about appearing green that their involvement is minimal.
There are also things like the CORVA action program that get manufacturers involved and helps fund some of the fight.
Yes - the fight needs to be taken to capital hill. But as Steve has pointed it out it's extremely expensive. If anyone has a way to get the big companies to start donating more I'd love to hear it. But like Doug pointed out we're a drop in the bucket to them.
I can say as an ASA volunteer and paying member, that the ASA does ask for support of our industry, via business sponsorships ect...
At the SSSS we canvased the the show and signed up about 50 new business sponsors and resigned countless other existing business sponsors. It is a great suggestion that the ASA works on. I can tell you from talking with the many booths at the SSSS, this industry is hard hit by the economy and businesses donate what they can, all the way from the fabricators to the t-shirt shops.
We can always use more volunteers and sponsors...
At the SSSS we canvased the the show and signed up about 50 new business sponsors and resigned countless other existing business sponsors. It is a great suggestion that the ASA works on. I can tell you from talking with the many booths at the SSSS, this industry is hard hit by the economy and businesses donate what they can, all the way from the fabricators to the t-shirt shops.
We can always use more volunteers and sponsors...
QUOTE (172flyer @ Oct 30 2008, 01:53 PM)
I can say as an ASA volunteer and paying member, that the ASA does ask for support of our industry, via business sponsorships ect...
At the SSSS we canvased the the show and signed up about 50 new business sponsors and resigned countless other existing business sponsors. It is a great suggestion that the ASA works on. I can tell you from talking with the many booths at the SSSS, this industry is hard hit by the economy and businesses donate what they can, all the way from the fabricators to the t-shirt shops.
We can always use more volunteers and sponsors...
At the SSSS we canvased the the show and signed up about 50 new business sponsors and resigned countless other existing business sponsors. It is a great suggestion that the ASA works on. I can tell you from talking with the many booths at the SSSS, this industry is hard hit by the economy and businesses donate what they can, all the way from the fabricators to the t-shirt shops.
We can always use more volunteers and sponsors...
I'd like to thank you and the other volunteers for all of your hard work!
However, I don't know if anyone has approached Ford, GM, etc about this (because I simply don't know, can anyone tell us?)
What I would pitch is to get a meeting and bring huge poster sized pics of Glamis on a busy weekend, Gecko, the washes, etc, showing all of the trucks and trailers. Make it clear to them that all of these people wouldn't be buying these trucks if they didn't have toys. If we don't have a place to play, then they sell far fewer trucks, which is their high profit margin vehicle. We lose the playground, they lose huge profits.
I would also impress upon them that the orgs that they "think" are trying to save the envirnment aren;t actually doing anything but taking their money and spending it on lawsuits, not saving one single animal or plant. We are teh stewards of Glamis, we have a vested interest in the future of it, we are here to enjoy it and protect it for future generations.
We need to change our image fro mthe "bad guys" to who we really are, the good guys.
An example of the kind of sponsorship I am talking about is The Diesel Page. It's a GM specific website that gets $20/yr from over 10,000 members. They also get advertising money from a large group of aftermarket diesel parts retailers.
But they also get advertising money directly from GM. He is making (conservative estimate) over $400,000 per year from a small niche website with only about 10,000 members running on a small server, even by GD.com standards.
What I'm saying is, if you never make the pitch, you'll never make the sale.
The ASA does have lobbyist on payroll that spend time in the state capital and in Washington DC...that is where some of our money goes to. Yeah, they don't have the political clout of NRA lobbyists but it is something. Guns are a National issue...Sand dunes are a So. Cal issue. They are not even in the same realm in the eyes of corporate America.
People here often complain about the fact that the ASA has made no head way in opening the temporary closures. This too bums me out as 8 years ago I had thoughts that the temps would be down in a couple years. Of course there really is no end in sight right now....BUT the question I ask myself all the time is where would the dunes be now if it had not been for the ASA (and other orgs, including GD.com) for putting up a fight. I think it's very possibly that the CBD could quite possibly have gotten the entire area closed by now.
People here often complain about the fact that the ASA has made no head way in opening the temporary closures. This too bums me out as 8 years ago I had thoughts that the temps would be down in a couple years. Of course there really is no end in sight right now....BUT the question I ask myself all the time is where would the dunes be now if it had not been for the ASA (and other orgs, including GD.com) for putting up a fight. I think it's very possibly that the CBD could quite possibly have gotten the entire area closed by now.
QUOTE (Zippy @ Oct 30 2008, 11:09 AM)
i would LOVE to see any kind of response from an ASA rep here.
THANK YOU.
THANK YOU.
Zippy, for you, anything..
First Steve's idea of soliciting sponsorship from industry "biggies" is indeed worthwhile, and from my involvement, it is something that has been, and continues to be pursued. We have gotten some support for our efforts, Kawasaki donated the use of a Mule in the south dunes, Yamaha gave us a donation last year, and we have many industry sponsors who have given various sums. The ASA is an all volunteer organization. We have one part time employee who does office duties, other than that each and every ASA person from the Chairman to the newest volunteer do this for one reason...our commitment to keep the dunes open. Pursuing sponsorship is a huge job, and we can always use more help.
Now, contrast the ASA to the NRA..that's a tough one. As pointed out, there is a big difference in membership numbers. There are many reasons for that. For one, you can (or should be able to) shoot pretty much anywhere in the country, whereas the ASA's real sphere of influence centers around Southern California, Southern Arizona, and a small part of Southern Nevada. Not only are we a minority in terms of numbers of people, the number of Senators and Congresspeople whom really feel our influence is relatively insignificant in grand scheme of the country. Also, there is a huge difference between the two organizations in terms of reason for existance. The NRA's focus, the right to keep and bear arms, is a RIGHT guaranteed by the 2nd Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. This was just affirmed by the biggest Supreme Court ruling on gun rights in the past 80 or so years (which the NRA REFUSED to be part of btw) in Heller vs. DC (June 2008). As much as off roading is a part of our life, and important to all of us who read this board, I'm not so sure the courts will see off roading in the sand dunes as a similarly protected right. This sort of "clout" is important.
Of course, the NRA also has an advantage of longevity. Longevity provides something that has to be earned...and that's a reputation. The ASA works very hard to build the respect and reputation it needs to sit at the table with the various land management agencies that impact our recreation at the dunes. But, we're not a multi-decade old organization.
And has anyone priced out how much lobbyists cost lately? I can tell you that finding one for $10K/month is like finding a brand new funco for sale for $10K..it's possible I suppose, but it ain't easy. The ASA has lobbyists at the federal and state levels. Would I like them to be more effective? Certainly. But we are honestly working this on a shoestring budget (relative to the true cost of lobbyists in the REAL world) and our results could simply be a mirror of that. And with the state of the economy, both nationally and within the industry, I fully expect our fundraising to go in a negative direction, which isn't going to help resolve this sort of issue any time soon.
Are we going to quit? Not a chance. We'll keep doing what we can do. I for one, and I know the rest of the board will agree with this, will be very happy to listen to, evaluate, and certainly act on community members suggestions on how to do things better, as long as they are viable, and supportable both with funding and the human resources needed to successfully implement them.
As I believe we're going to see some changes for the worse in the Washington world starting in January, I predict things are going to become even tougher for us and Mother G. The only thing we can do is to keep working as hard as we can to stop the eco's from stealing our beloved sand. If you have ideas, or want to volunteer in this eternal battle against the evil eco forces, please feel free to step up, and we'll find something for you to do.
QUOTE (Glamisbound @ Oct 30 2008, 02:08 PM)
The ASA does have lobbyist on payroll that spend time in the state capital and in Washington DC...that is where some of our money goes to. Yeah, they don't have the political clout of NRA lobbyists but it is something. Guns are a National issue...Sand dunes are a So. Cal issue. They are not even in the same realm in the eyes of corporate America.
People here often complain about the fact that the ASA has made no head way in opening the temporary closures. This too bums me out as 8 years ago I had thoughts that the temps would be down in a couple years. Of course there really is no end in sight right now....BUT the question I ask myself all the time is where would the dunes be now if it had not been for the ASA (and other orgs, including GD.com) for putting up a fight. I think it's very possibly that the CBD could quite possibly have gotten the entire area closed by now.
People here often complain about the fact that the ASA has made no head way in opening the temporary closures. This too bums me out as 8 years ago I had thoughts that the temps would be down in a couple years. Of course there really is no end in sight right now....BUT the question I ask myself all the time is where would the dunes be now if it had not been for the ASA (and other orgs, including GD.com) for putting up a fight. I think it's very possibly that the CBD could quite possibly have gotten the entire area closed by now.
If you're paying lobbyists and getting legislation passed, then you're getting what you paid for. If you're spending money and the only outcome is the lobbyist's kid gets to go to Harvard, then that's really nice for his kid, but that's about it.
I'd like to disagree with you on 2 points.
1. You stated that sand dunes are a so cal issue. That is entirely untrue. There are sand dunes in NV, AZ, OR, ID, WA, OK, etc etc. There is even a tiny riding area in Hawaii, on Oahu.
We need to reach out and make it a national issue, to bring all of the different duners from all of the different states together, because we're all feeling the squeeze.
2. You feel the CBD could have closed down the entire ISDRA if not for the ASA. I don't know if that's true. From what I have read, the CBD has never lost a decision, nor have they ever capitulated on any points. I may be wrong, but WE have always been the ones to offer to give up something now, for the hope of something in return in the future.
So far, that has been a futile hope. Nothing has been reopened, no decisions have been reversed, the BLM mismanagement of the dunes continues to get worse, not better.
Thanks!!!! i was hoping you would see this today BH...
QUOTE
I would also impress upon them that the orgs that they "think" are trying to save the envirnment aren;t actually doing anything but taking their money and spending it on lawsuits, not saving one single animal or plant. We are teh stewards of Glamis, we have a vested interest in the future of it, we are here to enjoy it and protect it for future generations.
I couldn't agree more!
As a volunteer I think you have a great suggestion towards generating revenue for the ASA and keeping the dunes open and free. I will encourage some of the people I know within the ASA to read this thread. More importantly I would encourage any duner to go to the ASA website, review when the meetings occur/or email the board, and be heard on your ideas. We all are the same community and I would imagine that thinking outside the box would should be valued!
There was another thread like this a while back, and somebody posted how certain players worked- the example given was Honda. They dont want to piss off the enviros so they can sell their green cars but dont want to piss off the off roaders who buy the quads, so what do they do?
I understand the ASA is a volunteer org on a shoestring budget and I thank them for all they do. But I have trouble supporting the caving in every time. Stand your ground and dont capitulate to the greenies. If we lose we lose, but lets not lose on our knees begging for table scraps...
I understand the ASA is a volunteer org on a shoestring budget and I thank them for all they do. But I have trouble supporting the caving in every time. Stand your ground and dont capitulate to the greenies. If we lose we lose, but lets not lose on our knees begging for table scraps...
QUOTE (socaldmax @ Oct 30 2008, 02:17 PM)
QUOTE (Glamisbound @ Oct 30 2008, 02:08 PM)
The ASA does have lobbyist on payroll that spend time in the state capital and in Washington DC...that is where some of our money goes to. Yeah, they don't have the political clout of NRA lobbyists but it is something. Guns are a National issue...Sand dunes are a So. Cal issue. They are not even in the same realm in the eyes of corporate America.
People here often complain about the fact that the ASA has made no head way in opening the temporary closures. This too bums me out as 8 years ago I had thoughts that the temps would be down in a couple years. Of course there really is no end in sight right now....BUT the question I ask myself all the time is where would the dunes be now if it had not been for the ASA (and other orgs, including GD.com) for putting up a fight. I think it's very possibly that the CBD could quite possibly have gotten the entire area closed by now.
People here often complain about the fact that the ASA has made no head way in opening the temporary closures. This too bums me out as 8 years ago I had thoughts that the temps would be down in a couple years. Of course there really is no end in sight right now....BUT the question I ask myself all the time is where would the dunes be now if it had not been for the ASA (and other orgs, including GD.com) for putting up a fight. I think it's very possibly that the CBD could quite possibly have gotten the entire area closed by now.
If you're paying lobbyists and getting legislation passed, then you're getting what you paid for. If you're spending money and the only outcome is the lobbyist's kid gets to go to Harvard, then that's really nice for his kid, but that's about it.
I'd like to disagree with you on 2 points.
1. You stated that sand dunes are a so cal issue. That is entirely untrue. There are sand dunes in NV, AZ, OR, ID, WA, OK, etc etc. There is even a tiny riding area in Hawaii, on Oahu.
We need to reach out and make it a national issue, to bring all of the different duners from all of the different states together, because we're all feeling the squeeze.
2. You feel the CBD could have closed down the entire ISDRA if not for the ASA. I don't know if that's true. From what I have read, the CBD has never lost a decision, nor have they ever capitulated on any points. I may be wrong, but WE have always been the ones to offer to give up something now, for the hope of something in return in the future.
So far, that has been a futile hope. Nothing has been reopened, no decisions have been reversed, the BLM mismanagement of the dunes continues to get worse, not better.
Ever been to Oregon Steve? No? Guess what? They dont have the problems we do! Been to Utah? No? They are prolly the most off-road friendly state in thu union. Been to AZ lately? No? Guess what? You dont need a hemet, quads on the street are legal, and so is riding double!!! What I'm tryin to say is NO OTHER STATES HAVE THE ISSUES WE DO!!!
So how can we make this a national problem, when it only applies to us??
We are a democratic state here bro, we off-roders are totaly screwed.
Your suggestion is noble. And it is being applied, but the results are quite disapointing here in the state of CA.
QUOTE (JSGrewal @ Oct 30 2008, 02:28 PM)
There was another thread like this a while back, and somebody posted how certain players worked- the example given was Honda. They dont want to piss off the enviros so they can sell their green cars but dont want to piss off the off roaders who buy the quads, so what do they do?
I understand the ASA is a volunteer org on a shoestring budget and I thank them for all they do. But I have trouble supporting the caving in every time. Stand your ground and dont capitulate to the greenies. If we lose we lose, but lets not lose on our knees begging for table scraps...
I understand the ASA is a volunteer org on a shoestring budget and I thank them for all they do. But I have trouble supporting the caving in every time. Stand your ground and dont capitulate to the greenies. If we lose we lose, but lets not lose on our knees begging for table scraps...
Very well put!
My biggest issue with all of these "envronmental orgs" is that as far as I'm concerned, they are deceiving people to get their funding. They don't go out and pick up trash, or build trails etc. AFAIK, they collect the money to file lawsuits and pay themselves fat salaries for doing it.
But by cloaking themselves in the aura of being "green", they basically extort money from many businesses.
We need to point out their true agenda, and show what we've done for the environment. Balanced use is much better than closures.
QUOTE (rivermobster @ Oct 30 2008, 02:33 PM)
QUOTE (socaldmax @ Oct 30 2008, 02:17 PM)
QUOTE (Glamisbound @ Oct 30 2008, 02:08 PM)
The ASA does have lobbyist on payroll that spend time in the state capital and in Washington DC...that is where some of our money goes to. Yeah, they don't have the political clout of NRA lobbyists but it is something. Guns are a National issue...Sand dunes are a So. Cal issue. They are not even in the same realm in the eyes of corporate America.
People here often complain about the fact that the ASA has made no head way in opening the temporary closures. This too bums me out as 8 years ago I had thoughts that the temps would be down in a couple years. Of course there really is no end in sight right now....BUT the question I ask myself all the time is where would the dunes be now if it had not been for the ASA (and other orgs, including GD.com) for putting up a fight. I think it's very possibly that the CBD could quite possibly have gotten the entire area closed by now.
People here often complain about the fact that the ASA has made no head way in opening the temporary closures. This too bums me out as 8 years ago I had thoughts that the temps would be down in a couple years. Of course there really is no end in sight right now....BUT the question I ask myself all the time is where would the dunes be now if it had not been for the ASA (and other orgs, including GD.com) for putting up a fight. I think it's very possibly that the CBD could quite possibly have gotten the entire area closed by now.
If you're paying lobbyists and getting legislation passed, then you're getting what you paid for. If you're spending money and the only outcome is the lobbyist's kid gets to go to Harvard, then that's really nice for his kid, but that's about it.
I'd like to disagree with you on 2 points.
1. You stated that sand dunes are a so cal issue. That is entirely untrue. There are sand dunes in NV, AZ, OR, ID, WA, OK, etc etc. There is even a tiny riding area in Hawaii, on Oahu.
We need to reach out and make it a national issue, to bring all of the different duners from all of the different states together, because we're all feeling the squeeze.
2. You feel the CBD could have closed down the entire ISDRA if not for the ASA. I don't know if that's true. From what I have read, the CBD has never lost a decision, nor have they ever capitulated on any points. I may be wrong, but WE have always been the ones to offer to give up something now, for the hope of something in return in the future.
So far, that has been a futile hope. Nothing has been reopened, no decisions have been reversed, the BLM mismanagement of the dunes continues to get worse, not better.
Ever been to Oregon Steve? No? Guess what? They dont have the problems we do! Been to Utah? No? They are prolly the most off-road friendly state in thu union. Been to AZ lately? No? Guess what? You dont need a hemet, quads on the street are legal, and so is riding double!!! What I'm tryin to say is NO OTHER STATES HAVE THE ISSUES WE DO!!!
So how can we make this a national problem, when it only applies to us??
We are a democratic state here bro, we off-roders are totaly screwed.
Your suggestion is noble. And it is being applied, but the results are quite disapointing here in the state of CA.Remember the quote from the minister in Nazi Germany?
He didn't stand up for anyone else because he wasn't a Jew, or a Protestant, or a union worker. So when they came for him, there was noone left to stand up, because they had all been picked off one by one. If we don't all stand together, they'll pick us off separately.
So now the logical part of the post. Why don't the other states have a problem protecting their offroad areas?
Better representation? Different mentality? The enviros are scared of getting shot?
QUOTE (socaldmax @ Oct 30 2008, 02:40 PM)
QUOTE (rivermobster @ Oct 30 2008, 02:33 PM)
Ever been to Oregon Steve? No? Guess what? They dont have the problems we do! Been to Utah? No? They are prolly the most off-road friendly state in thu union. Been to AZ lately? No? Guess what? You dont need a hemet, quads on the street are legal, and so is riding double!!! What I'm tryin to say is NO OTHER STATES HAVE THE ISSUES WE DO!!!
So how can we make this a national problem, when it only applies to us??
We are a democratic state here bro, we off-roders are totaly screwed.
Your suggestion is noble. And it is being applied, but the results are quite disapointing here in the state of CA.Remember the quote from the minister in Nazi Germany?
He didn't stand up for anyone else because he wasn't a Jew, or a Protestant, or a union worker. So when they came for him, there was noone left to stand up, because they had all been picked off one by one. If we don't all stand together, they'll pick us off separately.
So now the logical part of the post. Why don't the other states have a problem protecting their offroad areas?
Better representation? Different mentality? The enviros are scared of getting shot?
Some of the areas do have the same problems as us. In fact Oregon probably most of all. Their laws, rules might be slightly different, but they still have greenies after the recreation there too. In fact, when Nick was on the ASA Board, Oregon was asking to some how start a branch of the ASA there, because they needed the support. He wanted to help, but it was a huge undertaking that I'm not sure anyone could get accomplished. We went to Idaho 3 years ago on the dune tour and the locals there were talking about closures, restrictions etc. Also, look at Co. they have some of the most beautiful dunes, but absolutely none of it is open to OHV activity. Out of all the people that use the dunes, what percentage of them are truely dedicated to the sport? How many would give up money, time, etc. to wage assault, vs. those that would just move elsewhere, find new hobbies and other things to pass their time? This is a bigger problem then just the ISDRA, but the difficulty is getting a unified effort and not only that, but having the $$$ behind it to support it.
It's all about the people that live there Steve. CO is a perfect example. They were very off-road friendly back in the day, but then all the software companies started moving out there, and taking those kinna people with them. Now, that state is almost the same as CA, the rules in place now are nuts. I know this cause i have family there, and they have been there for years, and have seen all these things come to pass. It's all about the people that live there, and who they vote into office!
With danny boy in office in AZ, you can bet their days are numbered!
But whats nice about OR is that it was set up nice in advance. The coast is divided into sections. Off-roders here. Horseback riders here. Foot traffic here. It's all split up real nice, and everyone has a place to play! But the heat is on up there now too. All the states follow suit of CA.
Help is what's needed. What are YOU doing to help???
With danny boy in office in AZ, you can bet their days are numbered!
But whats nice about OR is that it was set up nice in advance. The coast is divided into sections. Off-roders here. Horseback riders here. Foot traffic here. It's all split up real nice, and everyone has a place to play! But the heat is on up there now too. All the states follow suit of CA.
Help is what's needed. What are YOU doing to help???
Also, on a separate note, I applaud the ASA...they are a small group of, hard working and dedicated individuals...who give much more than just their time to support the dunes.
It's easy to criticize that we don't see the efforts of what they are doing, no new open areas, no new legislation. But, those people work night and day to make a difference, but are hit on so many fronts that they might as well be punching bags. We support them with our money...sometimes. We support them with our time...when?
Yet, they still get out there and do what they do.
When Nick was on the Board, his e-mail box was innundated with ASA e-mails, probably 100+ a week, bi-monthly public meetings, monthly, sometimes weekly conference calls and this didn't include anything that came up in between. There were various events that needed to be planned, membership drives, clean-ups, you name it, the projects are endless for those guys.
If and when the dunes ever get closed, many of us will probably down there tooth and fist, demanding why they didn't do more, but at that point, who's fault will it be? Not theirs, because honestly I'm not sure any one of them could do more then what they're doing. That's when it will be time to take a good hard look in the mirror and say what did I do to support the cause? Where was my responsiblity in this cause...Without them I don't want to imagine where we'd be, but just like most I'm probably guilty of not doing enough to support them at what they are doing!
It's easy to criticize that we don't see the efforts of what they are doing, no new open areas, no new legislation. But, those people work night and day to make a difference, but are hit on so many fronts that they might as well be punching bags. We support them with our money...sometimes. We support them with our time...when?
Yet, they still get out there and do what they do.
When Nick was on the Board, his e-mail box was innundated with ASA e-mails, probably 100+ a week, bi-monthly public meetings, monthly, sometimes weekly conference calls and this didn't include anything that came up in between. There were various events that needed to be planned, membership drives, clean-ups, you name it, the projects are endless for those guys.
If and when the dunes ever get closed, many of us will probably down there tooth and fist, demanding why they didn't do more, but at that point, who's fault will it be? Not theirs, because honestly I'm not sure any one of them could do more then what they're doing. That's when it will be time to take a good hard look in the mirror and say what did I do to support the cause? Where was my responsiblity in this cause...Without them I don't want to imagine where we'd be, but just like most I'm probably guilty of not doing enough to support them at what they are doing!
QUOTE (rivermobster @ Oct 30 2008, 03:27 PM)
It's all about the people that live there Steve. CO is a perfect example. They were very off-road friendly back in the day, but then all the software companies started moving out there, and taking those kinna people with them. Now, that state is almost the same as CA, the rules in place now are nuts. I know this cause i have family there, and they have been there for years, and have seen all these things come to pass. It's all about the people that live there, and who they vote into office!
With danny boy in office in AZ, you can bet their days are numbered!
But whats nice about OR is that it was set up nice in advance. The coast is divided into sections. Off-roders here. Horseback riders here. Foot traffic here. It's all split up real nice, and everyone has a place to play! But the heat is on up there now too. All the states follow suit of CA.
Help is what's needed. What are YOU doing to help???
With danny boy in office in AZ, you can bet their days are numbered!
But whats nice about OR is that it was set up nice in advance. The coast is divided into sections. Off-roders here. Horseback riders here. Foot traffic here. It's all split up real nice, and everyone has a place to play! But the heat is on up there now too. All the states follow suit of CA.
Help is what's needed. What are YOU doing to help???
I'm making suggestions to help increase funding, hopefully to the levels that the NRA enjoys.
I honestly think that is far more constructive and a better use of my time than volunteering to hand out pamphlets.
Even if we get 2 million volunteers, that doesn't do anything to change the laws without funding.
What are YOU doing to help?
At least in this thread, I'm suggesting something that I think may be a better strategy. I'd like to see some constructive criticism (read suggestions) that are aimed at making the idea better, rather than negativity.
Actions speak louder than words.
Thank you ASA volunteers
Thank you ASA volunteers
QUOTE (socaldmax @ Oct 30 2008, 02:17 PM)
QUOTE (Glamisbound @ Oct 30 2008, 02:08 PM)
The ASA does have lobbyist on payroll that spend time in the state capital and in Washington DC...that is where some of our money goes to. Yeah, they don't have the political clout of NRA lobbyists but it is something. Guns are a National issue...Sand dunes are a So. Cal issue. They are not even in the same realm in the eyes of corporate America.
People here often complain about the fact that the ASA has made no head way in opening the temporary closures. This too bums me out as 8 years ago I had thoughts that the temps would be down in a couple years. Of course there really is no end in sight right now....BUT the question I ask myself all the time is where would the dunes be now if it had not been for the ASA (and other orgs, including GD.com) for putting up a fight. I think it's very possibly that the CBD could quite possibly have gotten the entire area closed by now.
People here often complain about the fact that the ASA has made no head way in opening the temporary closures. This too bums me out as 8 years ago I had thoughts that the temps would be down in a couple years. Of course there really is no end in sight right now....BUT the question I ask myself all the time is where would the dunes be now if it had not been for the ASA (and other orgs, including GD.com) for putting up a fight. I think it's very possibly that the CBD could quite possibly have gotten the entire area closed by now.
If you're paying lobbyists and getting legislation passed, then you're getting what you paid for. If you're spending money and the only outcome is the lobbyist's kid gets to go to Harvard, then that's really nice for his kid, but that's about it.
I'd like to disagree with you on 2 points.
1. You stated that sand dunes are a so cal issue. That is entirely untrue. There are sand dunes in NV, AZ, OR, ID, WA, OK, etc etc. There is even a tiny riding area in Hawaii, on Oahu.
We need to reach out and make it a national issue, to bring all of the different duners from all of the different states together, because we're all feeling the squeeze.
2. You feel the CBD could have closed down the entire ISDRA if not for the ASA. I don't know if that's true. From what I have read, the CBD has never lost a decision, nor have they ever capitulated on any points. I may be wrong, but WE have always been the ones to offer to give up something now, for the hope of something in return in the future.
So far, that has been a futile hope. Nothing has been reopened, no decisions have been reversed, the BLM mismanagement of the dunes continues to get worse, not better.
My comment about it being a So Cal thing was meant to be general. I'm aware there are dunes in other parts of this great country, but no other areas compare to Glamis in regards to numbers of visitors, and that is what we are talking about here. This is what we have to work with, and unfortunately, it's not much when you compare it to our adversary, or other orgs that have a strong presence in politics.
Personally, I think the CBD was surprised when duners stood up and said "BS, we are not going to stand by and do nothing"...why? Because we never did anything before and they were expecting the same again. Remember the closures were implemented when the CBD threatened to sue the BLM over an "endangered" weed. The BLW folded and said "we don't want to be sued; we'll just close these dunes down". If someone wasn't there to say this is not acceptable, it plausible the CBD would have threatened something else to get the BLM to close the rest of it…
QUOTE (socaldmax @ Oct 30 2008, 03:33 PM)
QUOTE (rivermobster @ Oct 30 2008, 03:27 PM)
It's all about the people that live there Steve. CO is a perfect example. They were very off-road friendly back in the day, but then all the software companies started moving out there, and taking those kinna people with them. Now, that state is almost the same as CA, the rules in place now are nuts. I know this cause i have family there, and they have been there for years, and have seen all these things come to pass. It's all about the people that live there, and who they vote into office!
With danny boy in office in AZ, you can bet their days are numbered!
But whats nice about OR is that it was set up nice in advance. The coast is divided into sections. Off-roders here. Horseback riders here. Foot traffic here. It's all split up real nice, and everyone has a place to play! But the heat is on up there now too. All the states follow suit of CA.
Help is what's needed. What are YOU doing to help???
With danny boy in office in AZ, you can bet their days are numbered!
But whats nice about OR is that it was set up nice in advance. The coast is divided into sections. Off-roders here. Horseback riders here. Foot traffic here. It's all split up real nice, and everyone has a place to play! But the heat is on up there now too. All the states follow suit of CA.
Help is what's needed. What are YOU doing to help???
I'm making suggestions to help increase funding, hopefully to the levels that the NRA enjoys.
I honestly think that is far more constructive and a better use of my time than volunteering to hand out pamphlets.
Even if we get 2 million volunteers, that doesn't do anything to change the laws without funding.
What are YOU doing to help?
At least in this thread, I'm suggesting something that I think may be a better strategy. I'd like to see some constructive criticism (read suggestions) that are aimed at making the idea better, rather than negativity.
Off-roaders will never have the level of support Shooters do. How many polititions ride off-road, as opposed to polititions that shoot? I'm sure you know the answer as well as i do. That one aint gonna happen.
Your comments on a message board, although noble, are doing nothing to get the job done! There is a LOT more to do that just hand out pamphlets. Why dont you get involved and find out! Your not skeered are ya??? Well are ya???
If you round up 2mil helpers, and everyone gives just a buck. That would make a hell of a difference. You ready to take on that task?
I do what i can. DuneSafe is a start. I help out the ASA as well. I'd do more, but my time is limited, so I do whatever i can. Anything is better than nothing, and open discussions like this DO help! Its good your asking questions, Im sure lots of people want answers. But steping up to help would be even better, give it a shot. Ya never know what ya might find, that fits right into what you'd like to do. I honestly think you might even have a good time!
QUOTE (socaldmax @ Oct 30 2008, 03:33 PM)
I'm making suggestions to help increase funding, hopefully to the levels that the NRA enjoys.
I honestly think that is far more constructive and a better use of my time than volunteering to hand out pamphlets.
Even if we get 2 million volunteers, that doesn't do anything to change the laws without funding.
What are YOU doing to help?
At least in this thread, I'm suggesting something that I think may be a better strategy. I'd like to see some constructive criticism (read suggestions) that are aimed at making the idea better, rather than negativity.
I honestly think that is far more constructive and a better use of my time than volunteering to hand out pamphlets.
Even if we get 2 million volunteers, that doesn't do anything to change the laws without funding.
What are YOU doing to help?
At least in this thread, I'm suggesting something that I think may be a better strategy. I'd like to see some constructive criticism (read suggestions) that are aimed at making the idea better, rather than negativity.
It's PC to be environmentally friendly and green, that is the trend, so the larger companies won't invest there money here, because it could come back and bite them when they get called out for it. Which they will.
One time we contacted a company about using one of their sleeping bags in one of our Magazines, it had nothing to do with advertising, it was just a free bump for their product. Well someone got a stick up their you know where and we got a reply that their Mission would not support a magazine like ours because their philosophy was to Tread Lightly on the earth and OHV use did not fall in their category of Tread Lightly. Well I politely responded to her that our magazines support organizations that call for responsible use of OHV lands, we give advertising to those organizations, we support clean-ups, we dedicate pages of our magazine to land-use issues, etc. Then I stuck it to her that just because we might differ in how we choose to recreate, does not mean that one way is better than the other. They may choose to walk or hike the trails, but we choose to drive them. Regardless of our mode of transportation, OHVer's still enjoy the beauty of the earth, still believe in being environmentally friendly, we just have another way of getting there!
Well, that changed their mind and soon after they gave us the permission to use their image! It was great...one victory for the small guy! Got the opportunity to teach a company that off-roaders aren't just a bunch of heathens walking around ripping out trees and stomping on flowers, but that we enjoy nature, just as much as a greenie anyday!
QUOTE (Glamisbound @ Oct 30 2008, 03:50 PM)
Personally, I think the CBD was surprised when duners stood up and said "BS, we are not going to stand by and do nothing"...why? Because we never did anything before and they were expecting the same again. Remember the closures were implemented when the CBD threatened to sue the BLM over an "endangered" weed. The BLW folded and said "we don't want to be sued; we'll just close these dunes down". If someone wasn't there to say this is not acceptable, it plausible the CBD would have threatened something else to get the BLM to close the rest of it…
Just to clarify for the record. The CBD did ask for the entire dune system to be shut down. The BLM didn't put up any kind of fight and it was only thanks to the groups that managed to file as intervenor status in the lawsuit that we didn't loose everything. The original "compromise" offered by the CBD was to "only" close everything south of keyhole.
So to say that the CBD always wins 100% isn't fully accurate - especially in our case.
And even once the negotiations led to the smaller closures it was obvious that the plant was not the issue as the original closures had NOTHING in common with where the plan was known to live. But again thanks to those who got intervenor status we were able to achieve things like the passage to Patton valley, keeping Buttercup, and the small closure east of gecko instead of the main closure extending up to the limits of that closure which is what the CBD was pushing for.
Had there been a group like the ASA in place before the lawsuit things on the ground would most likely have played out muc more in our favor.
QUOTE (socaldmax @ Oct 30 2008, 03:33 PM)
I'm making suggestions to help increase funding, hopefully to the levels that the NRA enjoys.
I honestly think that is far more constructive and a better use of my time than volunteering to hand out pamphlets.
I honestly think that is far more constructive and a better use of my time than volunteering to hand out pamphlets.
Then instead of volunteering to hand out pamphlets why not volunteer to help pursue larger corporations as sponsors?
You seem to have all the answers about how to convince these corporations ... so why not put it into practice?
Maybe those who have already tried didn't do it as well as you could. Maybe not. Only one way to find out and the only person who can make it happen is you.
QUOTE (DDivaGirl @ Oct 30 2008, 03:56 PM)
QUOTE (socaldmax @ Oct 30 2008, 03:33 PM)
I'm making suggestions to help increase funding, hopefully to the levels that the NRA enjoys.
I honestly think that is far more constructive and a better use of my time than volunteering to hand out pamphlets.
Even if we get 2 million volunteers, that doesn't do anything to change the laws without funding.
What are YOU doing to help?
At least in this thread, I'm suggesting something that I think may be a better strategy. I'd like to see some constructive criticism (read suggestions) that are aimed at making the idea better, rather than negativity.
I honestly think that is far more constructive and a better use of my time than volunteering to hand out pamphlets.
Even if we get 2 million volunteers, that doesn't do anything to change the laws without funding.
What are YOU doing to help?
At least in this thread, I'm suggesting something that I think may be a better strategy. I'd like to see some constructive criticism (read suggestions) that are aimed at making the idea better, rather than negativity.
It's PC to be environmentally friendly and green, that is the trend, so the larger companies won't invest there money here, because it could come back and bite them when they get called out for it. Which they will.
One time we contacted a company about using one of their sleeping bags in one of our Magazines, it had nothing to do with advertising, it was just a free bump for their product. Well someone got a stick up their you know where and we got a reply that their Mission would not support a magazine like ours because their philosophy was to Tread Lightly on the earth and OHV use did not fall in their category of Tread Lightly. Well I politely responded to her that our magazines support organizations that call for responsible use of OHV lands, we give advertising to those organizations, we support clean-ups, we dedicate pages of our magazine to land-use issues, etc. Then I stuck it to her that just because we might differ in how we choose to recreate, does not mean that one way is better than the other. They may choose to walk or hike the trails, but we choose to drive them. Regardless of our mode of transportation, OHVer's still enjoy the beauty of the earth, still believe in being environmentally friendly, we just have another way of getting there!
Well, that changed their mind and soon after they gave us the permission to use their image! It was great...one victory for the small guy! Got the opportunity to teach a company that off-roaders aren't just a bunch of heathens walking around ripping out trees and stomping on flowers, but that we enjoy nature, just as much as a greenie anyday!
That's an excellent example of opening someone's eyes to who we really are, rather than their preconceived notion of offroaders.
QUOTE (jhitesma @ Oct 30 2008, 03:59 PM)
QUOTE (Glamisbound @ Oct 30 2008, 03:50 PM)
Personally, I think the CBD was surprised when duners stood up and said "BS, we are not going to stand by and do nothing"...why? Because we never did anything before and they were expecting the same again. Remember the closures were implemented when the CBD threatened to sue the BLM over an "endangered" weed. The BLW folded and said "we don't want to be sued; we'll just close these dunes down". If someone wasn't there to say this is not acceptable, it plausible the CBD would have threatened something else to get the BLM to close the rest of it…
Just to clarify for the record. The CBD did ask for the entire dune system to be shut down. The BLM didn't put up any kind of fight and it was only thanks to the groups that managed to file as intervenor status in the lawsuit that we didn't loose everything. The original "compromise" offered by the CBD was to "only" close everything south of keyhole.
So to say that the CBD always wins 100% isn't fully accurate - especially in our case.
And even once the negotiations led to the smaller closures it was obvious that the plant was not the issue as the original closures had NOTHING in common with where the plan was known to live. But again thanks to those who got intervenor status we were able to achieve things like the passage to Patton valley, keeping Buttercup, and the small closure east of gecko instead of the main closure extending up to the limits of that closure which is what the CBD was pushing for.
Had there been a group like the ASA in place before the lawsuit things on the ground would most likely have played out muc more in our favor.
And if i remember right, the BLM actually had nothing to do with the original closure. It was the Forest Service the CBD went after, and threatend with a law suit, and by the laws in place, they had full right to sue!! The BLM was only there to implment the closures that were put in place by the suit.
Yes? No? I think thats the way it went down.
QUOTE (jhitesma @ Oct 30 2008, 04:02 PM)
QUOTE (socaldmax @ Oct 30 2008, 03:33 PM)
I'm making suggestions to help increase funding, hopefully to the levels that the NRA enjoys.
I honestly think that is far more constructive and a better use of my time than volunteering to hand out pamphlets.
I honestly think that is far more constructive and a better use of my time than volunteering to hand out pamphlets.
Then instead of volunteering to hand out pamphlets why not volunteer to help pursue larger corporations as sponsors?
You seem to have all the answers about how to convince these corporations ... so why not put it into practice?
Maybe those who have already tried didn't do it as well as you could. Maybe not. Only one way to find out and the only person who can make it happen is you.
From my experience, I am the worst salesman in the world. I've been pretty successful at finding novel solutions to weird problems (like at work) but I'm not the person to go and sell something like this representing the ASA.
I'm just suggesting it, and hoping current leadership chooses to run with it, or improve upon it. As you can see, it's something that popped into my head at 2AM.
This thread is a good one, and I for one am glad to see discussion and ideas. I don't know all the answers, and I don't think anyone else does either. But by working together, we can keep our dunes open. So with that in mind, let's keep the discussion focused on the issues, as these type threads often will turn into people or org bashing after a while, and I know Steve started this thread with full intent to help, as I know he shares a deep passion for the dunes and all of us that enjoy them with him.
First, let me confirm DDivaGirl's posts about the level of activity the typical BOD member has going on. She's right on the money...it's a lot of work. Nick was a valuable board member, and I know the entire board misses his contributions in that role, but I know he's doing everything he can to still keep the dunes open. I'm glad he, and every other ASA member is on our side. I have to say that if the playing field were "even", the kind of folks who work with the ASA wouldn't have a challenge beating the eco's. They are honestly that dedicated, and hard working.
Certainly there are other sand areas in the country. The "American" in the title of the org implies that we see the organization in a national role. That said, it's no secret that the ISDRA is the "crown jewel" of American sand recreation activities. We know it, the eco's know it, and the government knows it. Some may not know it but the ISDRA is the most visited federal property that isn't a national park, period. If there were ever an eco-terrorist organization that were successful in closing Mother G, through whatever lie or junk science that they dream up, they would become over night legends within that group of feel good, self appointed, know it all morons. Because we are limited in both funding and human resources, it's logical that we focus our attention on the area with the biggest useage. We participate in and support many different coalitions of off roaders, as we know that our only chance at keeping the eco's at bay is to work together. So, to answer the question, yes, we do our best to pull others together. And yes, we offer the assistance we can to others. As DDivaGirl's already pointed out, we offered our knowledge to Oregon. We've also offered legal help to Dumont with the fringed toed lizard issue. There are other groups working these issues, and we do what we can to support them.
Is our lobbyist getting legislation passed? We've got a long way to go to reach that level! I do believe that our lobbyist did play a role in the reduction of critical habitat (CH) acreage for the PMV. Has that opened the closures? No, but every square inch that CH is reduced can only help towards that goal. Can our lobbyist change the fact that a very senior Administration official was caught with their hand in the cookie jar with respect to some environmental issues, and the knee jerk reaction from the government was to be hyper critical of any environmental issues, and deny the delisting petition that we submitted?
Since we are on the subject, let's talk "lobbying" for a second. Not the idealistic textbook, the representative will do the right thing given good information one that some may have, but real world politics as they exist today, in the good ol' USA. Let's say we want to get Senator XXX to see our position. What's the best way to get them to understand what the dunes are, and how we REALLY recreate on them? Well, obviously it would be to get them on the ground, in the sand, and see for themselves. Sounds easy, we call 'em up, and say "Senator XXX, we'd like to invite you to go for a dune ride" right? Wrong. That's not even going to get you a junior staffer who's grandma lives in San Diego to stop by. That call better be something along the lines of "Senator XXX, we're having a fund raising event for you in the dunes. We'd like you to stop by, and see the dunes, and we're going to be presenting you a nice fat check". Now, we'll get a response... OK, so after looking at our balance statement, we find that's not going to be feasable. On to step 2. Let's have a letter writing campaign. That will help. Well, we've tried that. Our very own Hozay Kwarvo tried, but the response was an overwhelming bust. Our very own lobbyist said that we needed to do waaay better than that..Ouch!
Lobbying in the real world is very very resource intensive. You must grease the wheels, and you must educate those that really don't care. All of that takes time and money that we are always short of. In the NRA example, shooting is far more widely accepted. The costs of lobbying are similar, yet with shooting more widespread, the educational effort is far less than we face.
It is no myth that the CBD/PEER wanted the entire ISDRA closed in 2000. They were -><- that close to it too. Were it not for the efforts of Jerry Seaver, Vince Brunasso, and the other early ASA volunteers, the ISDRA would be closed today. Jerry has personally related the story of how they showed the team sent in to shut the dunes down how they had been given bad information. The ASA since day 1 has been working very hard to change the impression that those who don't dune have of the "lawless mad max types" that the eco's have cast us as. This is a large hurdle, and one I believe that some inroads have been made in. There is still a long way to go.
Bottom line...the road is not going to get any easier. As I said earlier, I welcome ideas, and we are always looking for better ways to do things. We are also always looking for whatever help someone may give. And I and my family will be forever indebted to those who have given so much to keep our dunes open.
First, let me confirm DDivaGirl's posts about the level of activity the typical BOD member has going on. She's right on the money...it's a lot of work. Nick was a valuable board member, and I know the entire board misses his contributions in that role, but I know he's doing everything he can to still keep the dunes open. I'm glad he, and every other ASA member is on our side. I have to say that if the playing field were "even", the kind of folks who work with the ASA wouldn't have a challenge beating the eco's. They are honestly that dedicated, and hard working.
Certainly there are other sand areas in the country. The "American" in the title of the org implies that we see the organization in a national role. That said, it's no secret that the ISDRA is the "crown jewel" of American sand recreation activities. We know it, the eco's know it, and the government knows it. Some may not know it but the ISDRA is the most visited federal property that isn't a national park, period. If there were ever an eco-terrorist organization that were successful in closing Mother G, through whatever lie or junk science that they dream up, they would become over night legends within that group of feel good, self appointed, know it all morons. Because we are limited in both funding and human resources, it's logical that we focus our attention on the area with the biggest useage. We participate in and support many different coalitions of off roaders, as we know that our only chance at keeping the eco's at bay is to work together. So, to answer the question, yes, we do our best to pull others together. And yes, we offer the assistance we can to others. As DDivaGirl's already pointed out, we offered our knowledge to Oregon. We've also offered legal help to Dumont with the fringed toed lizard issue. There are other groups working these issues, and we do what we can to support them.
Is our lobbyist getting legislation passed? We've got a long way to go to reach that level! I do believe that our lobbyist did play a role in the reduction of critical habitat (CH) acreage for the PMV. Has that opened the closures? No, but every square inch that CH is reduced can only help towards that goal. Can our lobbyist change the fact that a very senior Administration official was caught with their hand in the cookie jar with respect to some environmental issues, and the knee jerk reaction from the government was to be hyper critical of any environmental issues, and deny the delisting petition that we submitted?
Since we are on the subject, let's talk "lobbying" for a second. Not the idealistic textbook, the representative will do the right thing given good information one that some may have, but real world politics as they exist today, in the good ol' USA. Let's say we want to get Senator XXX to see our position. What's the best way to get them to understand what the dunes are, and how we REALLY recreate on them? Well, obviously it would be to get them on the ground, in the sand, and see for themselves. Sounds easy, we call 'em up, and say "Senator XXX, we'd like to invite you to go for a dune ride" right? Wrong. That's not even going to get you a junior staffer who's grandma lives in San Diego to stop by. That call better be something along the lines of "Senator XXX, we're having a fund raising event for you in the dunes. We'd like you to stop by, and see the dunes, and we're going to be presenting you a nice fat check". Now, we'll get a response...
OK, so after looking at our balance statement, we find that's not going to be feasable. On to step 2. Let's have a letter writing campaign. That will help. Well, we've tried that. Our very own Hozay Kwarvo tried, but the response was an overwhelming bust. Our very own lobbyist said that we needed to do waaay better than that..Ouch! Lobbying in the real world is very very resource intensive. You must grease the wheels, and you must educate those that really don't care. All of that takes time and money that we are always short of. In the NRA example, shooting is far more widely accepted. The costs of lobbying are similar, yet with shooting more widespread, the educational effort is far less than we face.
It is no myth that the CBD/PEER wanted the entire ISDRA closed in 2000. They were -><- that close to it too. Were it not for the efforts of Jerry Seaver, Vince Brunasso, and the other early ASA volunteers, the ISDRA would be closed today. Jerry has personally related the story of how they showed the team sent in to shut the dunes down how they had been given bad information. The ASA since day 1 has been working very hard to change the impression that those who don't dune have of the "lawless mad max types" that the eco's have cast us as. This is a large hurdle, and one I believe that some inroads have been made in. There is still a long way to go.
Bottom line...the road is not going to get any easier. As I said earlier, I welcome ideas, and we are always looking for better ways to do things. We are also always looking for whatever help someone may give. And I and my family will be forever indebted to those who have given so much to keep our dunes open.
QUOTE
I welcome ideas, and we are always looking for better ways to do things. We are also always looking for whatever help someone may give. And I and my family will be forever indebted to those who have given so much to keep our dunes open.
Bravo...well stated and I think that was the point I was trying to make earlier in the thread. We are all in this TOGETHER. Opinions may vary at times but the goal is the same!
QUOTE (172flyer @ Oct 30 2008, 05:17 PM)
QUOTE
I welcome ideas, and we are always looking for better ways to do things. We are also always looking for whatever help someone may give. And I and my family will be forever indebted to those who have given so much to keep our dunes open.
Bravo...well stated and I think that was the point I was trying to make earlier in the thread. We are all in this TOGETHER. Opinions may vary at times but the goal is the same!
Yes, absolutely!
I have heard that many of the volunteers of the ASA have flown to Washington and/or attended many meetings in several states to fulfill their functions for the ASA, on their own dime. That kind of dedication doesn't come lightly, and words alone cannot express my gratitude for your dedication and sacrifices.
My intent, when I heard this attorney talk about the NRA, was to figure out a way for the ASA to find as much money as the NRA has. The gun mfrs have deep pockets, and so do the auto and motorcycle mfrs, despite the current economic conditions. To think that every legislator considers the impact on his political career before making a move that the NRA might disapprove of...
I want to hear Nancy Pelosi tell some environazi that it cannot be done, because she knows the ASA would bury her by financing her opponent!! I want every legislator on Capitol Hill to take photo ops with shotguns and quads, because if they don't, the NRA and the ASA will ensure that it's career suicide!!
For those of you who think sheer numbers of members is what counts, I totally disagree. Money talks, people walk. I once met a guy who owns a huge estate on North Lake Tahoe. He "lends it out" periodically to politicians. He owns Dreyfus Mutual Funds on Wall St. When he wants legislation passed that is favorable to his industry, someone gets a free vacation at his Tahoe mansion. He gets the legislation passed. Sadly, that's how the system works. It's not about right or wrong, or what the majority of the people want, it's about which special interest group (like pharmaceuticals or subprime bankers) spends the most money.
When I think about all of the hard work that many in the ASA have put in, I rack my brain trying to figure out a way to get the kind of funding that is commensurate with the dedication of the staff, and the importance of the task at hand. We need millions, and the sooner the better.
QUOTE (socaldmax @ Oct 30 2008, 09:43 PM)
QUOTE (172flyer @ Oct 30 2008, 05:17 PM)
QUOTE
I welcome ideas, and we are always looking for better ways to do things. We are also always looking for whatever help someone may give. And I and my family will be forever indebted to those who have given so much to keep our dunes open.
Bravo...well stated and I think that was the point I was trying to make earlier in the thread. We are all in this TOGETHER. Opinions may vary at times but the goal is the same!
Yes, absolutely!
I have heard that many of the volunteers of the ASA have flown to Washington and/or attended many meetings in several states to fulfill their functions for the ASA, on their own dime. That kind of dedication doesn't come lightly, and words alone cannot express my gratitude for your dedication and sacrifices.
My intent, when I heard this attorney talk about the NRA, was to figure out a way for the ASA to find as much money as the NRA has. The gun mfrs have deep pockets, and so do the auto and motorcycle mfrs, despite the current economic conditions. To think that every legislator considers the impact on his political career before making a move that the NRA might disapprove of...
I want to hear Nancy Pelosi tell some environazi that it cannot be done, because she knows the ASA would bury her by financing her opponent!! I want every legislator on Capitol Hill to take photo ops with shotguns and quads, because if they don't, the NRA and the ASA will ensure that it's career suicide!!
For those of you who think sheer numbers of members is what counts, I totally disagree. Money talks, people walk. I once met a guy who owns a huge estate on North Lake Tahoe. He "lends it out" periodically to politicians. He owns Dreyfus Mutual Funds on Wall St. When he wants legislation passed that is favorable to his industry, someone gets a free vacation at his Tahoe mansion. He gets the legislation passed. Sadly, that's how the system works. It's not about right or wrong, or what the majority of the people want, it's about which special interest group (like pharmaceuticals or subprime bankers) spends the most money.
When I think about all of the hard work that many in the ASA have put in, I rack my brain trying to figure out a way to get the kind of funding that is commensurate with the dedication of the staff, and the importance of the task at hand. We need millions, and the sooner the better.
What was it you said about interpreting someones intent from a post?
(sorry, the debil made me do it...
)Anyway, I think your observation regarding "numbers of people" vs. money is 100% correct. In the realities of todays political world, if you have enough money, you can over ride the desires of the majority of the people..to a point anyway. If it were an absolute, the oil companies would already be drilling in alaska, off of the coast, and several other places. There's very few people with more money than these people, and they still don't have everything they want, but I'm sure they get much more than the average joe who has a much smaller wallet, but if enough average joes are pizzed off, they can, and will send the politicians packing, which in the politicians world is a doomsday event.
So the ASA, or any organization has to face a chicken or egg type decision. If you don't have mega bucks, you need lots of people. If you have mega bucks, you can simply buy the people you need, either their physical labor in the case of employees, or their morals, in the case of corrupt/semi-corrupt politicians. So, your original concept, at least in my opinion, holds validity, it's just a matter of how to make it happen. That's the $64 million dollar question.
And truthfully, I can say that from my observations, the leadership is constantly working any avenue possible to achieve both financial and human resource support. We do not get everything we want, but we use what we do have in the most effective way the collective group can see. Would we love to have a private ranch with a private jet that we could use to "woo" the political influence we desperately need to achieve our goals...Heck yeah! But we don't, so we do what we can. As I've said earlier, thank you for taking the time to share your idea, and to discuss it and your thought process. I'm sure it will help everyone understand just a small part of the ongoing efforts, and just how big of a job we are trying to do. And heck, maybe even get a few people who might want to pitch in and help in some fashion...
QUOTE (BeachHead @ Oct 31 2008, 07:25 AM)
What was it you said about interpreting someones intent from a post? (sorry, the debil made me do it... )
(sorry, the debil made me do it... )I stated that I don't (can't) do it. I just take people literally, that works best for me.
Obviously you're very good at it, so no problem there.
QUOTE (socaldmax @ Oct 31 2008, 11:19 AM)
QUOTE (BeachHead @ Oct 31 2008, 07:25 AM)
What was it you said about interpreting someones intent from a post? (sorry, the debil made me do it... )
(sorry, the debil made me do it... )I stated that I don't (can't) do it. I just take people literally, that works best for me.
Obviously you're very good at it, so no problem there.
Ouch...
QUOTE (BeachHead @ Oct 31 2008, 11:21 AM)
QUOTE (socaldmax @ Oct 31 2008, 11:19 AM)
QUOTE (BeachHead @ Oct 31 2008, 07:25 AM)
What was it you said about interpreting someones intent from a post? (sorry, the debil made me do it... )
(sorry, the debil made me do it... )I stated that I don't (can't) do it. I just take people literally, that works best for me.
Obviously you're very good at it, so no problem there.
Ouch...
Ouch?
I'm saying that *I* can't figure out intent, and you can. That's a compliment, Bob.
The CBD, the main culprit at Glamis, claims a membership of about 10,000 members, but an operation budget of $5 million a year! Guess who gives them lots of money?
And they do lose......the rancher in Arizona that beat them and then the CBD cried like little girls when they had to pay serious $$$ and they appealed and lost and cried some more.
The line is drawn in the sand and we're not backing down.
And they do lose......the rancher in Arizona that beat them and then the CBD cried like little girls when they had to pay serious $$$ and they appealed and lost and cried some more.
The line is drawn in the sand and we're not backing down.
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