First off, I haven't seen it myself, but Wes was telling me about it, so some of these observations are based on what he was able to tell me.



Railroads use sand on RR tracks to increase traction, especially on steeper grades. The locomotive has a compartment filled with sand, and they spray it right in front of the wheels to increase traction. The RR tracks are not flat on top, so after the wheels pass over it, the sand falls off the top of the rails from vibration.

That's the first part of why I don't believe the story about the RR building the fence because of drifting sand causing a derailment. Another part is based on the location and the temperature extremes that occur in Glamis. Because it can get so hot in the summer and so cold in the winter, the rails expand/contract a great deal, and this pulls the spikes out and allows the rails to move, which in my mind, is the most likely cause of a derailment. So if the RR has been in operation for XXX number of years, they know this takes place, and the only question then becomes: do they do regular maintenance often enough to prevent these expensive derailments? I dunno, it depends on how much their insurance premiums increase as a result of a derailment vs how much maintenance costs. Only their accountants really know that one.

As for this fence stopping sand from covering the tracks, I don't think so, not at all. According to Wes, the current fence posts look like they are designed to accept K-rails, which aren't going to stop sand. Besides, building a fence 95 ft away from the tracks isn't going to really have any impact on preventing sand from getting on the tracks.

Now the word I hear is that these fence posts are 10 ft apart, except at each wash, where they are 30 ft apart, with a supporting beam running diagonally down to the next post. If this is true, then it appears the RR is intending to leave the washes open, or install gates at each wash. Now the RR has no business going into the washes, so the only logical reason I can think of to install a 30' opening at each wash is to let campers get into the wash. For this reason, I'm not too concerned about the RR trying to close access to the washes. They wouldn't go to the trouble of leaving a 30' gap or reinforcing it to accept a gate if they planned on permanently closing it off. I really don't see why they are bothering to build it at all. And I really don't think we are ever going to get an honest answer about that, based on the info they've provided so far.


As for requesting 100 people to attend a TRT meeting, I'm not so sure I see the logic behind that. Isn't email good enough? Don't they read the emails? Would showing up en masse really have that much more impact than sending an email or making a phone call or writing a letter?

In this day and age where everyone can txt or send email or surf the web from their phone, it just seems awfully archaic (prehistoric?) to expect a large group of people to all go somewhere just for a show of support.

It's reminiscent of the "Million Man March." When they did that, everyone I know said, "Look, there's a bunch of people who need to get a job."

But seriously, did the Million Man March work? Did they get what they wanted? Or was it an empty gesture? I certainly didn't take them seriously. When our founding fathers first envisioned our system of gov't, they knew, even then that a true democracy wasn't going to work, because not everyone could take time off to travel to Wash DC to vote. That's why we have a Republic. We have elected representatives who are supposed to represent our wishes in Washington. Don't get me started on campaign promises vs what they actually accomplish.


Anywho, I'll probably attend the meeting anyways, just to hear with my own ears what is being said. I hope whoever gets up to speak does so eloquently, intelligently, succinctly, calmly and with a great deal of charisma. There are few people who are well equipped to speak in front of a crowd. I agree with those why state that there should be just a few speakers.


Finally, I sincerely hope that this fence is not designed to keep us out of the washes, and we can turn our attention to other pressing matters, like the upcoming removal of the trash dumpsters.

Well thought out...







But, who needs dumpsters if the road is closed. The RR already stated talk to the BLM. The deed is done- or will be done by the meeting...

I'm not convinced that the RR is planning on closing wash rd.

If I was planning on closing wash rd, I'd go about it logically. I'd put a huge gate up right at the entrance at hwy 78. I'd fence it in down to about wash 4 or 5. That should be good enough to keep people from duning their 40' motorhomes to get further down the washes. If people did manage to get around that, I'd extend it down to maybe wash 10.

But I sure wouldn't start at wash 26 and then build north, and I sure wouldn't put a 30 ft gap at each wash. What reason wowuld the RR have to put in a 30 ft opening at each wash? They have no business going into the washes, they would access a tran wreck via wash rd. which is already there and graded.



As for the dumpster issue, we can all drag our trash home. We did it before dumpsters, we can do it again. What irks me about the dumpsters is that our ISDRA pass prices were based on $400K for trash service, and it's in the budget. But since they are discontinuing it, where is that money going to get diverted?

$400,000 for more ticket books?

Very well thoght out and many valid points. I agree that the fence is not to keep sand off the tracks. And why bother to leave openings if they plan on closing the road. For now I'm optimistic that it is a good sign for us. Remember , eloquently, intelligetnly, succintly, and calmly will show that we in the duning community ar not a bunch of mindless drunks.

Sand more than likely drifts out from around and under the railroad ties after time...



Would rails/ties with no sand under them be prone to moving, thus contributing to the pulling out of the spikes?

Yes, I think ties with nothing under them would be prone to moving, but the RR tracks are laid on a fairly big bed of gravel, not sand. I don't know how much gravel shifts. I would think it doesn' shift much, since the RR has been around a very long time and they should know by now what to use for their tracks.

Steve....all good thoughts. Personally, I question the effectiveness of this fence and it's ability to keep sand from blowing onto the tracks, just like you do. I've only heard that as a rumor, as the railroad hasn't communicated directly with the GD.com, the ASA, or myself personally. Until we hear their official position, rumors will circulate, and intelligent people will draw their own conclusions, be they correct or not. My personal conclusion is that there are several reasons the railroad has started this project, and are putting it in the chosen location.

First, they are going to extend the second track, so they are going to have a need to move the wash road access to the west. They are also going to want some sort of protection and ability to move their equipment around during construction. And what better place to do that than on their right of way? If you were going to lay track in the middle of the desert, when would you choose? Probably the winter time when temperatures are more moderate for man and machine to accomplish the work. Imagine the fluster cluck of heavy machinery and duner traffic on wash road when this is going on in the winter. Probably not a great picture if you're the railroad and trying to accomplish your job during duning season. Yeah, you could argue "do it in the summer", or "do it when duners aren't there", and a few other angles, but it boils down to a decision made in the 19th century by the government to give the railroad the significant rights of way they enjoy to this day. So it's their land, they were there first, so they may not feel like worrying about duners is really their concern. Harsh? No, it is what it is.

Second, over the years, how many "accidents" do we have with fools who try to cross the tracks, get stuck, or misjudge the train speed, and get at least their equipment destroyed, if not worse? How many of those same people who made these illegal crossing attempts turn around and sue the railroad for damages? Probably more than we think. Can you blame the railroad for considering solutions that might stop that? Given my limited knowledge of the railroads real intentions, my gut feeling is this is the #1 motivator for the whole thing, and we as a community have no one to blame but ourselves. Just like they shouldn't need to put crossing arms at every street intersection to keep cars from crossing in front of trains, this fence shouldn't be needed. But people just won't use common sense and seem to need a physical barrier to stop themselves.

Now why the provisions for gates? I suspect it's more of a "last chance" type message. My guess is once the project is complete, the first time there is an incident on the tracks involving duners, we'll find those gates locked up tight from here to eternity. My sense is the railroad would like to keep the access for the public, but their generosity has limits, and again, how can we blame them?

So...why go to the TRT meeting in person? What's that going to do? Well, first off, realize that we are dealing with government employees. They are smart enough to know that we can all send an email. Certainly, they will consider what's contained to some degree. But they also know that for 50 or 100 or 1000 duners to take the considerable time, effort, and expense to show up in person and tell them face to face they are concerned with something, that the issue is real, and real important. This is something they cannot ignore and just hope it goes away. This considerably ratchets the issue up on the "concern" scale as compared to emails.

Will attending one meeting change anything? Nope...as a community, we need to stay engaged at this level. This has to just be the beginning. What the land managers need to know and realize is that this is a HUGE issue to the community, and make plans to mitigate the fact that the railroad owns that land, and that at any time, they can exercise the rights they've had since the 19th century regarding their land and lock us out. Whatever is finally figured out to mitigate this threat to the access to our public lands, it's going to take a considerable effort, and probably considerable dollars. Do you think we have a chance of making that happen without considerable pressure from the duning community? The government moves very slowly, so if we want a permanent, positive solution, we need to be prepared to keep this pressure on until we see it in place, on the ground.

So, don't go to this meeting expecting miracles to occur and everything will be wonderful because someone made a moving speech. Ain't gonna happen. Go to this meeting with the intent to show the land managers that we are normal people, and that this is an issue that we won't let get swept under the rug, because if we do, we'll lose our access. Go to this meeting knowing that this is just the start...But realize you have to start somewhere, and brother, it's a big job we have to do.

This is a highly likely circumstance. This may be the last TRT meeting, due to the new laws stemming from the FLERA stuff.

not for nothing but ummm...whats to stop angry people from leaving their trash along the Wash road with the misconception of "let the people who OWN the road clean it up"? you know those people exist...we just dont like to talk about it.

and for the fence, same lynch mob mentality. just add spray cans and the mindset of pissed off duners and voila! new form of tagging.

no one likes to say it out loud but the first time you see it, AND YOU WILL, you will remember this post.

im going to the meeting just to eliminate the He said She said...tell me the "truth" to my face. and steve, there is still room for you in my truck.

I agree that this is the first step in regaining control of their property for the upcoming construction. Whether another road is graded outside of this fence is up to the BLM. With the lack of funds throughout all government agencies I doubt the money for a new road would be budgeted. This would be ideal to have, and possibly a solution to be offered, but at this time we still are promised access. What we need to do is be good stewards of the railroad property and try to police ourselves so that there is no good reason to deny access.



It wouldn't hurt if we all picked up a little trash everytime we came across it. Doesn't matter who drops it, it makes everybody look bad. If we don't do it, nobody else will.

With the wash openings that are being shown right now as construction is underway, it seems to me that the whole reason the fence is going up is to try to keep people off the tracks.....I saw people up there walking around on the tracks over and over again Thanksgiving weekend. Complete idiots! Most of us know better, but there are way too many stupid people in this world. If I were the railroad, I'd put up a fence and have Leo's at each opening, checking for passes and patrolling for idiots on the track. Wash road would only be accessible by our trucks and trailers, and no OHV's whatsoever. I don't believe the fence is being put up to keep sand from the tracks. Now, if it was a block wall.....maybe.....but still unlikely. That's just my opinion. I'll wait to hear what comes out of the meeting on Friday. Sadly, I won't be able to make it down, but will definitely be looking to see what the outcome is.

Lastly, thanks to GD.com and the great people here who have intelligent things to say, and fun stuff too.

Deb

trust me. i know all about picking up OTHERS' trash. i am making a point. what is to stop the punks thinking "no dumpsters since my fees paid for nothing but the RailRoad owns this strip of land i used to use freely and openly so let THEM pick up my trash".

seriously, you dont think a single person out there will have those bitter evil thoughts in their head? welcome to society.

All fine and good until the BLM decide that a particular wash is full and close it off, even though your family is camped there, or ... there's no BLM available to open a particular gate one weekend... or... The BLM decide to fill each wash before allowing access to the next...
Ect ect ect...

I was kinda thinkin that the railroad wants access to their constuction zones and maybe the BLM has agreed to maintaining the gates and how they will be maintained. Saving $400,000 on dumpsters might just cover the maintanence of fences/gates through a season.

As for openings being left open at the washes, you do not put fences across a area that is prone to flash floods. Duners being able to access the dunes through these openings is a plus, not a plan.

Agreed.

Opening at each wash = A) Access to Wash camping area. B) Flash floods have their pathway.

According to what I've heard, the existing posts look like they are drilled to accept K-rails.

If they are installing K-rails, that isn't something that is going to get messed up by a flash flood, or stop sand from getting on the tracks either.


It would be nice if the RR showed up at the TRT meeting and we could actually count on them to tell us the truth.

unless they just close access at the beginning of the road

I don't know if this has been proposed yet but, how about if someone that is going to the TRT meeting videos the event, and so that it can be posted here and at other sites such as DDR and pirateoffroad to get the message out for those of us that can't be there so that there's no he said she said telephone game bs and also contact the media so that there is coverage for "normal" people and let be known what is going on.

Just my .02

Can the webcam be set up? There is no way in he$$ I can go and still have a job to come back to. But I would like to see it for myself...

I am looking into doing the webcam. I don't know if I'll be allowed but I am going to try...
At the very least I am going to try to record the meeting to make available off-line/online later.

Gate???
A 1" cable would be quite an effective gate which would not hinder flash floods. This is IMO the most likely scenerio.

Yes you are correct. Now after you have said cable gates and seeing the openings, I see the cable as the gate.

I agree with the original post here:

1. The fence will make it easier to close off sections under construction, keeping out unwanted traffic and securing equipment.
2. The fence will make it easier to close off sections when/if there are derailments.
3. The fence makes traffic more predictable--you know where traffic will be entering and leaving the wash road resulting in fewer oh shiats!!
4. The fence may or may not lessen drifting/blowing sand from interfering with normal rail operation.
5. The fence makes a visual statement and gets people's attention--stay the hell off the tracks!

Could they use the fence to close it off? Yep.
Will they? Maybe?
Do they have reason to? Maybe?

Would you all be happier if they came out and said that they are installing the fence so that they have better control over their property and it will make it easier to close their property to public access should they decide that sometime in the future liability and maintenance costs are too great?

A couple of thoughts I posted in another thread:
I find the "liability" issue the most likely, as in they are trying to protect their liability insurance by blocking access to the tracks in the populated area to help prevent future train/offroad vehicle accidents. In the end, they can call it anything they want, it's their property.
Also, this had to have been on the table for a long time. No big organization, especially the railroad, gets something like this going in a short time. This had to have been approved and money allocated months/year ago.
And speaking of liability, in the pictures I've seen I don't see anything "warning" people about the fence posts. What happens when one of our community comes blazing through at night and hits a post or two because they didn't see them????????? And speaking of that, what happens when someone crashes in to the completed fence??????? Frankly, IMHO we have a much better chance of reaching the RR on these topics than we do about access to the dunes. The RR couldn't care less if we have access to the dunes, in fact they'd prefer we didn't. It costs them a fortune every time we cause an interuption of service. We would have a much better chance of getting this fence removed if we can show that the fence is a legitimate safety hazard.

Yes, so we could focus all attention to the BLM in finding ways such as funds, permits, or whatever route we need to take to get another road built directly next to the fence ASAP, and not live by the whim of the railroads executives.


Good points everybody. Big reason no fence posts in the wash, flooding would take them out, as a few poeple have stated, and cable will do just fine to close it. As for derailments; imagine 500 trailers and motorhomes lined up down wash road on a big holiday weekend, in a gridlock because everybody is turtling their way into one small opening per wash. Then a derailment happens? Oh boy. Now you have a major disaster, and everybody is locked in. Not good. Maybe these openings are ready for gates because limits, reservations and curfews are coming? Lots of variables. I like the idea of no OHV's on wash road, because I pray that nobody hits the whoops and gets a little out of control and takes a header into one of those metal poles.

We don't know why they are being put in, we are making a lot of assumptions. But we do know that are being put in. And at this point, yes, I am just thankful that we do have those openings se we can still access the dunes.

All I know is I have finally found a place I LOVE to camp at with my family... hope it doesnt get shut down

Getting the BLM to build a new road adjacent the RR/Wash Road=perfect solution
Getting the BLM to build a new road adjacent the RR/Wash Road=fantasy

Another thing that bugs me is the BLM has been collecting fee money FROM people who have camped in the Wash area, yet have done nothing to ensure camping could continue there via an access road. Sure we've been paying for "services rendered", not "future services", but geez, no insurance for future access?

My thoughts are the Fence ( OR K Rail) is to keep some of the Quads, Rails, Dirt Bikes off of wash Road. Say I am riding a quad towards wash road to head up the road to the vendors. I come up tot the road and there is a fence. So instead of finding an opening I just stay in the washes and make my way up to the vendors instead of using the wash road.

This would keep some traffic off of the road, maybe help some maintenance costs???

Just a thought.

As you are, I am trying to figure out what this fence is for, since "It is being built to keep sand off the tracks" does not make sense.

I feel like an azz already for pointing this out because I don't disagree with anything you've said, but on big holiday weekends there is already gridlock on the wash road. Limited access points to wash road will actually push some of the grid lock further from the tracks.

BTW, there are only a few washes that would need modification to allow bigger rigs to move freely between 14 and 27 west of the proposed fence.

Thank you for saying it again. NO MORE OHVs ON WASH ROAD!

Golden Nugget right there.

Gates and Fences are used for 1 reason only. To seperate one side from the other and restrict access from one side to the other.
Sand? BS.
Gates? can be closed.
If at the road - they gate it off.. Its gone.

Being optimistic is setting yourself up to get shot. We all know (who have been married) that its way easier to ask for forgiveness then permission. Once the fence and gates are completed, it will take an act of god to remove them if at all possible.

The started a fence a while back. It was never completed. nobody knows the reason for that one. Its on the E. side of wash road..

Id prefer to see us file a suite or judgement to stop this fence until we know exactly whats up and why (if possible). God knows GreenPeace, Serria club, and other orgs dont seem to have problems getting this done. Sorry ASA, but nows your time to shine. Prevent a closure.. Amazing thought.. seems way to simple - but Im sure its complicated..

Another note - I was talkin to Slappy about this and hes freakin out on it.
Lets talk LAW and Liability.
If the railroad puts up this fence.
And say on a busy weekend sunday morning there there is a line 1/2 mile long to get out cause they are checking passes (all within the gated road) and a train derails. Sure it would wipe out everyone fence or not, but with the fence up, the rail road buys all the liability because they corraled the people into a place they couldnt get out of.
Same for any 1 rig or person on the road traveling on it and the train derails. With the fence, where you gonna run to? WIthout fence, you turn right and punch it.. The slim chance of survival is taken away..
Just talkin liabilities here..

I dont think the sky is falling - but Id like to stop them until they can privide us with their official plan of intent. Permits, studies, geological impacts etc.. I mean we all have to do it with additions on our own land.. dont they? If so, it should be public record.

Sorry - but for as long as I can remember - ive been able to see a train wreck as it was about to happen and this looks like one.

There is a lot of speculation circulating around this issue and hopefully we will get some solid answers @ the TRT meeting. If nothing else maybe we will learn what our next course of action should be.

The biggest positive I have seen so far is that we appear to finally be standing up as a community of duners. We are more informed and organized than we have been in the past. People are being proactive and are willing to stand up & fight rather than than just sit back and let the other guy do it. Hopefully this is just the begining of a better future for all of us.

Not a problem...We have checked with the ASA's lawyer. The term is "prescriptive easement". You gain that by using someone else's property without their permission for a length of time. The key to that is the "without their permission". There are rumors that the BLM has/had the railroad's permission to use their right of way. If this is true, we don't have a legal reason to file a law suit. The key is to find out how much, if any truth there is to the permission part. I've asked that this be researched, as if there is no way to prove the BLM has/had the RR's permission, we would have a shot at that case. This is something that is still being looked into, all the answers aren't there yet.

The difference between "us" and the eco's is they HAD a legal issue that they could file a case on..the BLM/FWS did not do their job as required by the law, and the eco's took advantage of that. If we were to file a lawsuit without cause, all we'd be doing is throwing money away, as we'd be paying for the RR's lawyers time and all the court fees just to have the Judge tell us that we don't have a case, and that we have a horrible lawyer who's only wasting the time of the court and his clients.

I've said it before, and I'll keep saying it. The ISSUE here is not the railroad building a fence on it's right of way...It's the BLM not having an iron clad access route to traditional camping areas on public land that's not subject to the whims of an enterprise protected by rights of way granted in the 19th century. Don't think for a minute that the railroad's rights are going to go away. The only real solution to this for the BLM to either construct adequate access on public land that cannot be closed off by private concerns, or negotiate unrevokable permission from the RR to use it's right of way.

This isn't about anyone "shining"..it's about keeping access today, and ensuring it for tomorrow. Like it or not, just like the real world, it IS "complicated". I'm sorry, but there's not a whole lot anyone can do to change that complication. And it's going to take the collective effort of a whole lot of us to make it happen. I'm glad we've got the people here on gd.com who are going to be a part of the solution.

Well said Beach (even that early in the morning).
Now that we have all bought our passes - whats to stop us from starting the process to ensure our access to public land? Maybe Obama will kick down some change for us.

they put a paved road up on gecko didnt they? how bout a paved road along the washes! that would be a nice change! someone call obama, and lets getERdone!!!

I agree with above post....BLM should have made (or make) access road and NOT rely on RR to allow for access...

There are many theories on what and why this is happening. My reaction is that this couldn't be anything but bad for us. We have had closures thrown at us, and we've fought them with no success. I can understand that our reaction, mine also, can come across as angry. They are not, only of grave concern. I have to thank everybody for their thoughts on this.

I have recently talked to a person that is down there and has just seen the fence for the first time, and he believes that it quite possibly could be only temporary. I clapped my hands and yelled yahoo. I don't know, but the way he explained it was that if it was permanent, it would've been constructed differently. I'm not a fence guy, so I would have no clue. But maybe, JUST MAYBE, they are putting up this fence to do construction on the RR, close off the areas that they are working on, and then remove it when it's done? I sure hope that is the case. I will think and stay positive until further notice.

I could live with that, even if it means closing a particular wash entrance for a week or two to finish construction, then the fences come down. I do think dropping K rail like freeway construction would be a faster and cheaper temporary solution.

If this is the plan, the RR would be better served by just making it public, getting duners support to stay away from construction, and be done with it. Unfortunately, the pessimist in me ( insert black helicopter smiley here) tells me otherwise.

maybe the blm likes this idea as they can then check everyone leaving because it will be much harder to get off the road and take the washes after a busy weekend?

but also i see it being a bad thing that can get shut down at anytime and close access for anyone very easy once the fence is in place.

Weren't some of the closures "temporary"... ??

Sorry, I cant be so optimistic..

I've got permanent fences that are not anywhere near this strong...........

they already closed the crossings at what 40 and 24. so that will stop anyone from coming in the back way.

Has anyone from the ASA or the BLM contacted the RR to request a representative attend this meeting to answer some questions and stop all of the speculation?

I heard yes, Steve.

But if they show....we'll have to see.

It's my understanding that both the ASA and the BLM are trying to get a representative from the RR to attend the meeting. I have not heard if they were successful.

Wow... another 'temporary closure' or 'possible permanent closure' to our recreation area.

Seems that the RR may be doing to the dunes what the canal project is doing on the south side.

Funny how their work is "non-disruptive" and okay, vs a few tracks in the sand.

No one has any pictures?

From the description...those be permanent.

Not a pretty sight or pretty thought.

Yesterday afternoon the fence was down to wash 17. Just wanted to let you know.

I work for bnsf railway in northern Az. The rr will do what they need to do for the rr. They don't care how it affects us. that fince will be perminent I feel lucky to have wash road and be able to use it. we are all trespassing on rr property. They have 100ft each side of track. The rr police have athority to ticket you for trespassing on right a way. I got a ticket before I worked for rr I went under a bridge with my atv in Winslow Az. Just like we all do at wash 10 I got a criminal trespass ticket it was a felony in az. 3 days later the officer called me and threw out the ticket. I felt real lucky to not have a felony on my record. If they are leaving gaps at washes they are helping us I see alot of washes at work that all have fences through them I have some friends that work for up see if I can get any info on fence project. post what i find out Be safe watch out for fence posts rail road ties i almost hit a pile of ties thanksgiving weekend about wash 17

Um…(somewhat) respectfully, guys….

Gimme a break. If it’s Sunday on a busy weekend, fence or not, Wash Road is gridlocked while they are checking passes. A derailment will do the same amount of damage. The RR doesn’t buy any additional liability for damages caused to RV’s next to the track because there is a fence.

We simply need to continue to pressure the BLM to build a new Wash Road on BLM land for access to that camping area. It’s not gonna happen overnight.