As I posted in another dumpster thread. Privatize the trash. Use the budget money to educate. If you are a PACK IT HOME duner you will not be affected. If you find the need to use a dumpster then you pay the small fee to support the vendor.

Simple

The money from the use permits can be used to stepup the education program.

I have to say a lot of times, I load the trash in the trailer and forgt to stop at the dumpsters.

I think pack it in and pack it out will work.

It works in Ogilby, by the Patton Valley Towr is pretty clean.

I would like to see the money used for road improvements, pave wash road, pave the road to Ogilby, make Gecko Longer............

People will either learn or we will all be screwed.

Just my .02!

I just do not believe in giving up any thing that we already have. We gave up the North dunes in the 70's with a promise that the south dunes would forever be for off-road use, we let them close 50,000 plus acres for supposed environmental reasons,and how long has comp hill been closed now? We have fought for everything we have now, why give something else up? The ASA position seems to be that we are going to lose it anyway, so why not now? Well I am going to die some day, but I am not going to shoot my self today! Just maybe Imperial county or the chamber of commerce or even some individual can come up with a way to keep the trash service. With Imperial county paying for the rest of the year { if they do} it gives us more time to try to come up with a better solution. And does anyone really think the feds will spend any money left over in the budget for improvements at the ISDRA? Give me one example of anytime this has ever happened.I for one do not want to go back wards. If the ASA wants to educate people on the trash issues, great, maybe we can cut dumpster fees in half. But I do think keeping trash service for the rest of the season will give other orgs a chance to find a better solution, if possible.

Pack it home makes sense, and I sometimes do and sometimes I use the dumpsters. If there are no dumpsters its no big deal to me or the people that are on this site. Unfortunately we are the minority. Its the old 80/20 rule. 20% of the people who go to Glamis cause 80% of the problems. Its the 20% who still bring a truck load of pallets on every trip, its the 20% who still leave trash today with or without dumpsters, its the 20% who cant walk 10 feet to the dumpsters and just leave it nearby, its the 20% who dont bother with green stickers and buggy registrations, etc.

If the dumpsters go the 20% are going to f it up for the 80% of us.

Let me know when you make up your mind....

No, there are plenty of us who see the exact same scenario, but with one minor twist.


the judge will order a temporary closure of all of ISDRA until he's convinced that the BLM has a handle on it. then just like the RAMP, it will never happen.

The temporary closure will be just like all of the other temporary closures. Permanent.

And guess who will have been instrumental in supporting the removal of the dumpsters. Besides the BLM.



No, not Aphantomduck. But it does start with an "A."

Thanks for the heads up, aphantomduck.

It seems logical to me that if the ASA fully supports the removal of the dumpsters, then they would not support any other entity funding the dumpsters thru the remainder of the year. Regardless of what the majority may want.



So how does somebody like his crow prepared? Maybe a little ketchup or mustard with that?

Open you mind here Rivermobster. I made my first post two-three hours before I received this e-mail. The time stamp on this forum is not the same as the time zone I'm in. AND... I told everyone that it was withheld for the reason cited in my post.

The topic we are discussing here is not about me, rather... its about the County of Imperial's offer and ASA's response. Please consider staying on topic.

Thank you.

Thank you for the information Bill.

If Imperial County is willing to fund $$$ towards the trash issue....

I'd agree with the ASA that the money would be better spent towards how it WILL be going forward.

That means No Dumpsters.

Education is key.

Heavy Citation will be the "Study Hall" for those who did not figure it out on their own.

This was posted by Jerry Seaver on the ASA site. Jerry is someone that KNOWS!

________________________________________________________________________________
_
This issue has a long history with many twists and turns. Over a year ago, the TRT addressed its concern about a projected approx. one half million deficit in the budget for running the ISDRA. The El Centro Field Office didn’t have any ideas of how this was going to be covered, but stated that probably some visitor services would have to be cut. At the time they mentioned EMS as one of those services. Later the BLM did an evaluation of what they considered essential services and not essential. They denied that they would ever reduce EMS because it was considered an essential service. Law Enforcement was also considered essential. Dumpsters were considered, non-essential. We asked if then the BLM was going to be discontinuing dumpsters at the ISDRA to balance the budget. They said that they didn’t plan on getting rid of the dumpsters. So we asked if that meant that they would be asking to raise the fees. They said, no, they didn’t plan on raising fees. So we ask what the plan to balance the budget is. They said they didn’t know and for now they would let things play out. The District Manager was contacted and he didn’t know what they were going to do either but said they normally let these kind of things play out and the State Office finds the money from somewhere. There were more twists and turns concerning the dumpsters, one was about their lids being out of compliance (broken and not closed) with the Biological Opinion. We were told that the Biological Opinion wasn’t relevant at this time. So the lids didn’t have to be in compliance. The only reason I bring this up because it is part of several other conversations that came out over time about what could be eliminated to balance the budget. Where dumpsters even a consideration, did the Biological Opinion require the BLM to have them? The BLM didn’t think that they had to supply the dumpsters but at the time, they didn’t plan on doing anything because they were still hopeful that additional funding would be found.

Moving ahead to Aug. of 2008. The dumpster issue became serious when the State Director of the BLM came out and said that the BLM is planning on not having dumpsters at any of their recreation areas, including the ISDRA because of funding problems.. The ASA being concerned about how that was going to work, has been doing it's best to get as much information out as possible.

The BLM said, they had found a funding source that could fund dumpsters until Feb. 1, to buy some time to educate everyone that trash would have to be packed out. The BLM at the time didn’t consult anyone, the County, or anyone else because as far as they were concerned it was a done deal.

The County after finding out about the dumpsters being removed, became concerned that this was going to cause a problem in the surrounding cities and roadways because the ISDRA visitors would be trashing them with no dumpsters at the ISDRA.

As a result of legislation that was passed 4 years ago (AB 2666 statutes of 2004) Imperial County now receives additional funds from the off highway vehicle registration fees that are restricted to spending on programs to enhance off highway vehicle recreation in the county. The Imperial County Board of Directors is going to be considering using these funds to pay for dumpster for the remaining part of the season.


Some of the concerns are;

These funds will be wasted if the BLM as they have stated as late as a week ago is that they have no funding available for dumpsters for the next season.

It was stated by the BLM that they probably need to raise the fees by $10 to cover the cost of the dumpsters. Which raises more questions,
Does that really cover the cost of the dumpsters?
What is that based on, visitation, compliance and etc?
Has there been an evaluation done?

If indeed the BLM isn’t going to have dumpsters at the ISDRA next year, we have other needs for funding that might be a better use for the money that the County has available. Education and enforcement will be necessary if there is going to be any chance of having no dumpsters at the ISDRA workout. A couple of other things that funding is needed for that I can think of, is grading a new Wash Rd. that isn’t on the Railroad easement, a hard packed road into Dune Buggy Flats, money to fund more dust control, and etc.

There is still a question whether the BLM has to adhere to the Biological Opinion or not. If they do, they are required to have dumpster at the ISDRA. I know, they have already come out and said, they are eliminating them starting Feb. 1, but it won’t be the first time that they didn’t do there homework.

This is a short version of some of the twist and turns that this issue has taken. The TRT has been dealing with the deficit issue for a while now waiting for the next shoe to drop, raising fees.

We will know shortly what the County is going to do. Time will tell if it is the best decision.

A couple of response here...

At the August meeting referred to by Jerry, ASA, UDG, and the County of Imperial all stated that if BLM was not going have dumpsters the whole year, then they should start the season without them. Taking them out in mid-season would be a disaster.

The County apparently does not believe funds will be wasted as it gives BLM time to work on a permanent solution, including regular grants from OHV while the program is gradually phased out over time. Thus, the rational for the County's stop gap offer of funding the dumpsters until May 15. As the visitors are then educated through time, the dumpsters will eventually go away from public funding and perhaps all together.

One need to keep in mind that the County offer and funding is not grounded in permit fees, BLM funds, or California OHV funds. They are taking their portion of "in liew of property taxes" derived from the registration of OHV's and putting it to use for all kinds of projects that help motorized recreation. The county is under no legal obligation to spend these funds this way. This is their way of "giving back" to those of use who visit the county and the monies we spend to help businesses who profit from us.

A TRT meeting was held at the County building last month. The theme was to find some money to get through this season.

Now the County is coming through.

Seems like a good gesture to me.

I agree, it is a good gesture.

However, when I think of the $400M that the county earns in extra business, and the untold amounts of extra funds raised by the radically increased enforcement and ensuing citation storm, I'm starting to think it's too small of a gesture.

Not to seem ungrateful, but that's a lot of revenue; perhaps there should be commensurate spending to help ensure that revenue continues to flow.

I don't recall the breakdown on the income the County/city's gets from such spending via taxes. But I'd venture to guess its about 1%.

It would be interesting to find out how much the County spends indirectly and directly on visitation to the ISDRA.

I'm thinking its not too far off from each other.

Ok, let's discuss that.

http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medialib/blm...108%20FINAL.pdf

In this document, there is a lot of info about how and why the monies are spent at dumont and the isdra.

Currently, glamis oppearates under a "special recreatonal permit", and thats how/why the BLM can collect and distrubute fees. In 2004 the REA was enacted, which allows other methods of collecting fees. (entrance, standard amenity, expanded amenity, and special recreation permit).

I see the BLM moving towards the standard amenity fee. Why? This is what would have to be in place, for the fee structure to change: (1) designated developed parking; (2) a permanent toilet facility; (3) a permanent trash receptacle; (4) an interpretive sign, exhibit or kiosk; (5) picnic tables; and (6) security services.

I can only imagine that IF the BLM moves to that SAF, our fee's will be increased dramaticly! I highly oppose any fee increases. That is my personal point of view.

If you read the recomendations for glamis, security cameras (which i belive apply to point #6) are recomended as well. They have already put in everything else they need to move to the new fee structure, with the exceptions of 3 and 6.

So from my point of view (opposing increased fees), if the ASA is opposed to the dumpsters being put in place permenently, i totaly agree with them!!!

I do not want to see us move to the Standard Amenity fee. (i believe our fees would go up)

Also, if you read the rest of the exectutive summary, there are other steps the BLM can take to incresse our fees to the dunes. This would be the expanded amenity fee. To put this in place, a reservation system would have to exist!!!!

To me this would be a disasaster.

I can live without the dumpsters, and I support their removal completly. I hope now you can understand why.

Thank you!

Agenda item 13 from the Board of Supervisors meeting today for the County of Imperial



I just learned that the Board voted 5 to 0 to pass this measure.

I suppose the real question then is....

How does the BLM plan on educating people in the off-season to prepare for next year?


I still don't see how ending service at the start or end of a season makes it any easier to educate, I see it as a great way to destroy the education that has been done and a wide open path to failure. Ending the service mid-season was one of the very few things I believe the BLM made a good decision on.

education to the casual duner is key. the people on here arent the problem IMO. they need big signs about the dumpsters leaving on the 78 entering the iSDRA, just like the one that say comp hill closed. then maybe more people will know, still to this day 2 out of 5 duners i talk to are unaware an issue even exists.

< is sad

Since the Board has made its decision, perhaps another thread about how to accomplish some of the ideas posted here regarding the long term approach of the trash/dumpster issue is in order.

I'm of the mind that this topic is now moot and has ran its course.

Thank you to everyone that participated and I wanted to say I respect the views of everyone here that was a part of this discussion.

the long term approch would make the reailty of the new fee structures a reality i believe. i sincerly hope i am dead wrong about this...

Does this mean that you think we are all going to forget about this issue over the summer?

I think it will no longer be a hot topic of discussion, but I know I will remember the final outcome. I'm still hopeful that the county will opt to pay for it in the future, as the lesser of multiple evils.

As for those who do not know or do not care, I hope the ICSO and BLM are around at the right times and right places to write littering tickets to those who would leave their trash behind. By that, I don't mean one beer can in a fire pit either.

duck, you rock.








My only concern is the hwy being covered with trash on both sides from it blowing out of the trucks and trailers. I truely beleive duners will and can pack it out.


But it will be all over the place from Glamis to Brawley!




Im against them being removed, but the asa has been preaching pack it in pack it out since 2005





They know best!

I don't think anyone who's posted in this thread will forget about it. I'm worried about the same people who still don't know about the issue despite the signs, the articles, the flyers and any number of other ways that it's been announced already. The same group that everyone else is worried about.

Expecting them to get news about the dunes in the off-season is unrealistic if they can keep their blinders on that well during the season.




I don't see any way that IC will be able to provide a long term solution. Their budget isn't any better than the BLM's - and I can guarantee that their approval to spend this much now will NOT go over well with the locals. If a solution does come out of IC it won't be government it will be private. And that means it will cost money for those who use it which means the people everyone is worried about won't use it anyway.



I've been hoping for that for years irregardless of the dumpster issue.

Great Post!!

Thanks to all that have put forth the effort and hard work to help keep our public access to public lands.

I'm still missing something here.

OK, so there wont be dumpsters next season. (according to most)

whats wrong with letting someone else pay for them the rest of this season?

I agree and I also think someone owes APHANTOMDUCK an apology for acting they way he did towards him.

x3.

Seems to me maybe the ICBOS has a better grasp of reality than the ASA.

While I'd agree that "pack it in, pack it out" would be the preferred method for trash disposal in the ISDRA, it's going to take more than half a season and a couple billboards to change people's behaviors. That's assuming, of course, that behaviors can be changed at all.

Kudos to the board for stepping up to the plate.

Again, from the ASA site by Bill Jones, someone else who KNOWS.
_____________________________________________________________
**UPDATE**
The Imperial County has voted to provide the funding for dumpsters for the second half of this season.

_________________
Bill Jones

Hello all you upity ups, if they remove the trash cans, they will close Glamis.
Imperial County knows this, why don't you??????????


I say have the imperial county pay for dumpsters the rest of the season then take one dumpster away per two weeks, put signs that say Pack it in or pack it out or you will be ticketed,

Have 10 or 15 cops giving anyone leaving trash a ticket.......

I guess that answers my question. sorta

Bill Jones is a good man and again, I respect him a great deal.

This information was posted in post # 67 of this thread at 10:16 a.m. (time stamp from this forum) this morning.

I'm glad you now KNOW this too.

Please keep us apprised of any other information on this topic you are made aware of.

Thanks!!!

This thread clearly started out as an ASA bashing thread. I called duck out on the issue of him doing just that, and he denies my claim. But if you read the title of this thread, it's pretty hard to deny.

How many times in the past has someone been called out for posting only part of what they know? Quite a few times i think!

Why is this any different??

Did this end up true or not?

Yep, it's true! So all think i should appoligze for acusing him of starting rumors? Ok...

Duck, Sorry for the false acusation on my part.

well done.

It's hard enough to determine emotions from a post on the internet, it's even harder to determine motive.

From the way I read it, he had info he wanted to share with us, but could not/would not tell the source. That's OK by me. As long as it's the truth, I'm not asking for credentials. He even gave contacts to verify the info, but still the attacks continued.

I haven't read all of aphantomduck's posts, but I have read enough of them to be convinced he's one of the good guys, and just tells it like he sees it. He doesn't have an axe to grind. If at times he's critical of the ASA, it has always been with good reason. He has also set aside any personal feelings and stayed on topic, rather than firing back in kind.

I know I have been critical of the ASA in the past, because I think for myself and question things, I don't just blindly follow the herd. There have been plenty of times I have been attacked as not supporting the ASA, and that is simply not true. One can support the ASA while still questioning some of the decisions made. Just because someone asks questions or occasionally disagrees doesn't mean they are against the org. It just means they see things differently, which might actually be a good thing, if anyone is listening and discussing, rather than just attacking or arguing.

Here's how it will go:

1. Season starts, no dumpsters

2. After Thanksgiving, CBD photogs will be out in force finding heaps of trash, with a few tortoise shells scattered around for good measure.

3. Dramatic shot of empty beer can in milkvetch with pile of trash behind it lands on judge's desk in circus court

4. CBD makes logical argument that BLM can't even cover the basic sanitation needs of the 200,000 people who visit the dunes every (thanksgiving) weekend, therefore is incapable of proper stewardship of this public land.

5. Judge agrees, closes Glamis to OHV use until situation can be studied further. Glamis still open to the public though, happy hiking.

6. ASA looks forlornly at the pile of "Pack it in, pack it out" pamphlets in storage and quickly lets duning public know that they are working on a second secret plan to get the dunes back open, more details to come when the time is right.

7. You grow old and die, Glamis still closed.

Has the ASA been right about anything? No, they haven't. They've scored exactly one big goose egg in any fight that matters, so if they say this won't be a problem, you can bet it will be a big problem. $150,000 for anti litter education - let me give you a big clue guys - everyone ALREADY knows it's wrong to litter, teh federal gov't has spent 30 years and billions of dollars educating people, the a-holes who do it anyway aren't going to give a crap about your $150k and the absence of the dumpsters will just strengthen the enviro's point that the desert ecology is just too fragile to support OHV use.

But if it has to be that way, how about an indian sloooowly riding a quad past a bunch of trash with a tear in his eye, nostalgic anyway.

The flip side of the coin can be used for clean up, only 20% of that 80% of us will actually ever clean up someone elses trash. I have done it and I'm sure you have done it but it sounds like the rest of us are going to need to do it. We can't aford to let the dunes be closed by people that just don't know or care. G.D. members need to unite and assist in whatever means nessery to spread the word. Weather it be waving signs "Pack it in Pack it out" or telling your neighbor your camped nex to you need to clean up your camp sight or you might not have a place to ride your 5K quad or that 80K sand rail. Let's face it dumsters are a convenionce, close to a one half million dollar a year convenionce. With this economy and state budget issues government agencies are looking to save and cut where ever they can. And to the ones that don't know or understand, they have been spoiled by that convenionce and or maybe just don't realize whats at stake. So it's eather raise funds and or raise awareness when funds arn't there or say by by to the dunes. I think it's great that the county antied up to keep the dumpsters for the rest of the season. I just don't see them beeing their in the future unless we want to pay for it "highly unlikly". Maybe more scheduled clean up days as a start? A bill board sign on the way in would make a good statment. Have a photoshop contest to what it's going to look like and say? I'm sure it has all been suggested just thought I would post it.










I hope not!