In Reading all the other threads and the Dumpster Poll . I see majority of people want dumpsters. It is also obvious that a significant if not the majority feel the ASA is clueless when it comes to this isuue. I see a lot of posts "wishing" and "hoping" for a new funding source for next season so lets hear some solutions for a permanant source of funding .

A couple questions come to mind for the people that are hoping this problem rights it self .

Did you actually read the letter to ICBOS from ASA ?

What are your options for a permanant funding source ?

If one is not found for next season what do you think the effect of no Dumpsters will be Halloween 09 ?

What happened to all the funding that SB 742 was going to generate?

Personally, I hope that by delaying the removal of the dumpsters, it would give all the parties involved more time to work on a solution or to educate the individuals who leave their trash behind. I dont see the counties funding as a solution to the problem. I see it as a method to buy some time.

And to answer the last question;


Whether or not funding is found, I think we'll see just as much trash next Halloween as we have in the past.

I am very much against that solution. I'm praying they will be permanently removed.

Although off-topic, I say, bigger signs, and bigger fines. They now have many more LEO's on the ground to enforce or at least give the feeling of a "force" that will make a litterbug less likely to litter, why not have large signs at all major entrance points announcing a $10,000 fine for littering? I'm sure folks hate the idea of big signs cluttering up dunes, but who camps at the entrances anyway? This problem will go away when we make it WAY more sensible to simply throw it in the back of the truck rather that risk a $10K ticket, I just don't understand why it's not that way already. Make it $100K fine and people will RACE to pick up a piece of trash even if it's not their's. Think folks will stop going because of the threat of large fines? Sure, the litterbugs will stop going, problem solved.

well i thought one of the majors reasons for the fee;s in the first place where to be able to provide the dumpster anyway ???????? would be nice if somewhere there was the paper work to this effect

ask and you shall recieve...

http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medialib/blm...108%20FINAL.pdf

One of the things that came with SB742 is increased grant buckets. There is more money available....but you have to apply for a grant to get it....and the cap is $500K/application.

BLM El Centro hasn't had grant money from the state for Operations & Maintenance for years.....in part from a screwed up Commission (which they no longer have those kind of powers) and in part from not scoring high enough (the grants are rated on a scale...you earn points based off certain criteria) and too many applications applying for only a small amount of money.


Did I confuse you? I tried to give the short, Readers Digest version....but might have failed.

I talked to a Imperial County Sherriff (the guy was a real tard). He said it was his belief that the Federal Government would step up to the plate and pay for the dumpsters. We shall see. All I know is Glamis is becoming more of a sh!thole every time I go. I wonder what some of these peoples houses look like. Seriously how hard is it to pick up after yourself?

Every morning when I walk the dogs, I pick up a full bag of trash. I camp in Keyhole and take the dogs out by the bushes and there is always a bunch of crap loaded in them......

That's a very common misconception.


The original "Fee Demo" fees were enacted by the Clinton administration to see if the BLM could be made self-sufficient. Remember when he shut down the national parks? Same deal. The idea was to stop funding national parks and recreation areas out of taxes and see if the users would be willing to pay-to-play.

However congress interpreted things like people paying fees (even though not paying resulted in fines) as a sign that people approved of the fees and the idea of cutting funding for the department of the interior and making the BLM and other agencies have to rely on fees instead of federal appropriations to survive. Couple this with the OHMVR in CA being taken over by greens and drying up that funding source the BLM has been left with fewer and fewer option and more and more of a need to charge user fees.

However under the current laws they can only charge access fees if no less than 9 types of services are available, including things like picnic tables, fire pits, ramadas, showers, and other common "campground" ammentities.

(Along these lines- if Glamis does go to reservations and a concessionaire get ready for no fires outside of designated fire rings.)

That's why your pass isn't a pass. It's a permit. A "Special Recreation Permit" to be precise. Which based on the language creating it was meant for things like races and other larger public or private events which would place a higher than normal burden on the park service in question and was meant to allow them to recoup those expenses from the person/persons creating the burden.

The BLM however is using this to supply their primary operating funds by assuming that anyone coming to the dunes will be recreating on an OHV and therefore requiring them to buy a permit to do so...even if that visitor has no OHV and no plans to ride an OHV.


The BLM did do a survey in conjunction with the TRT back around 1999 shortly after the demo fees were first implemented asking how any excess funds should be spent. The survey however was worded in a way that made it sound to most people taking it that the BLM had extra money and was asking what kind of services they should spend it on. Since then the BLM has repeatedly pointed to this survey to say that users have demanded these things and funds must be found for them.

A few years ago the TRT did another survey, this time making it very clear that any requests for new or increased services would result in higher fees to fund them. And the results showed quite clearly that visitors were not interested in expanded services IF they would result in higher fees. The BLM quoted parts of these results out of context to justify building new pit toilets - even though the full result set showed that the majority of users had actually requested that the BLM NOT do the kind of thing they were using the results to justify.


The fees have NEVER been meant as a way to pay for new or increased services. Only as a way to cover current operating expenses.

Yet the BLM continues to misrepresent survey data to claim that users want more services and then justify raising fees to provide those additional services. Which makes people think the fees are there to pay for improvements so they want to see more improvements which requires higher fees and the cycle begins.

Umm yeah, where is all the fee money going? Maybe to the trash fairy.

Millions of dollars collected in the dunes every year and none of it can make it's way back. Boston tea party anyone?

jason, is that the survey thats attached to the end of the review document i posted up there? ^^^

a lot of what jason is talking about here is all in that blm review document. taking the time to read it will answer a whole lot of questions on this issue.

I personally like the idea of the county paying for or at least part of the trash collection. Seems to me that most of the businesses and county is reeping the benefits of our $$$ in there local economy. Then they should flip part of the bill for the trash collection. JMHO

Off topic, but I've felt for a long time, offroaders should partner ( I prefer extort) Imperial County, Brawley, other cities support or else Duners drive through without spending a dime until they do show support...

Carry on...

Call it what you want , but ASA has been insturmental in the formation of the UDG , to get the cities and county involved

Cool. I just feel more aggressive sometimes. They dont show some love, Duners buy nothing in their cities. The businesses will be demanding their officials do something after an expected big weekend and most people buy nothing. Sounds good around the campfire anyway.

This is off the topic of trash but from what you have posted here it seems the BLM is acting illegally with the passes. One example is If someone comes out in a Honda Civic (no toys) and just hangs out with friends he should not need to have a permit, yet every vehicle entering must have one or be cited. To say the lest the BLM is misrepresenting if not operating the fee program fraudulently.

yes, they are.
even if someone drives out in their honda civic to deliver some medication to a friend and then leave, they will be cited if they dont have a pass.
even if someone wanted to drive on railroad property from the 78 to Ogilby road, the Blm will require payment.

edited to add. But a citation is not an admission of guilt. they can still go to the judge and give their side.
Using this logic, I dont see why they just dont cite everyone for anything, right or wrong, and let the judge decide. Oh wait, maybe they are.

I'm sure everyone on this board will pack out their trash. When the dumpsters are gone, unfortunately it will become our responsibility to each pick up an extra bag or two of trash left at the dumpster sites location until the situation gets under control. We will see.

(text in bold copied and pasted from the review document)

Under REA, BLM is not allowed to charge entrance fees. BLM is authorized to collect standard amenity fees, which are fees for access to a National Conservation Area; a National Volcanic Monument; a destination visitor or interpretive center that provides a broad range of interpretive services, programs, and media; or use of an area that provides significant opportunities for outdoor recreation and contains six amenities: (1) designated developed parking; (2) a permanent toilet facility; (3) a permanent trash receptacle; (4) an interpretive sign, exhibit or kiosk; (5) picnic tables; and (6) security services.

I could be reading this totaly wrong, but this is what i see for our future;

The BLM wants/needs to move from the special opperaing permit, to the Standard Amenity Fee permit. Notice all the things that have to be in place? They didn't put the kiosk's and pit toilets in just for fun, and in the review recomendations, they want perminent trash services, and security camers installed next! Once that's all done, then they can charge this new fee.

In addition, BLM can collect expanded amenity fees, as well as fees for special recreation permits. Expanded amenity fees may be charged for the use of a specialized facility, equipment, or service, such as a campground, boat launch, reservation service, or interpretive tour. REA outlines the criteria that must be met in order to charge this fee. For example, in order for BLM to charge an expanded amenity fee for use of a developed campground, the campground must include at least a majority of nine specified amenities such as tent or trailer spaces, drinking water, and simple devices for containing a campfire. BLM can also collect a special recreation permit fee in connection with the issuance of a permit for specialized recreation uses of federal recreational lands and waters, such as group activities, recreation events, and motorized recreational vehicle use.

Again, I could be wrong, but it look like to me, the steps to get to the Expanded Amenity Fee have already been laid. How long will it take to get there is the only question left to be answered. Once the permenent trash recepticals (dumpsters) are in place, and the security cameras put in, the reservation system is next.

I really feel that I need to comment on this....

I think that you have some misconceptions as to what the the language you have posted above means as I have seen you post these misconceptions repeatedly..

As to your interpretation of "Security Services" I can't seem to make the leap to "security cameras" as you have. I read this as something that we already have in the law enforcement presence, be it BLM, ICSO, FWS or whatever. What leads you to believe it involves surveillance of some kind?

And then there is the "reservation system" language that you see as impending doom is merely stating that they can or could charge additional fees for "the use of a specialized facility, equipment, or service, such as a campground, boat launch, reservation service, or interpretive tour."

Add to that the fact that this is "Statewide language" not specific to our little slice of heaven but not excluding it.

And before anyone adds it, I know that Glamis is listed on "Reserve America" but that doesn't mean poop until you can actually reserve a spot.

I do not see how this relates to trash and the dumpsters but it is what it is.

FWIW I think the dumpsters need to stay, if not permanently, at least until the end of the "season". There are far too many asshats out there that couldn't care less about "Pack it in, Pack it out" and the litter and trash problems will only get worse.

My $.02... Carry on.

i will address your comments not with my language, but with lauguage from the review document, everything from page 19 forward is specific to the ISDRA.


As to your interpretation of "Security Services" I can't seem to make the leap to "security cameras" as you have. I read this as something that we already have in the law enforcement presence, be it BLM, ICSO, FWS or whatever. What leads you to believe it involves surveillance of some kind?

page 22:

RECOMMENDATIONS:
I-3) Installation of security cameras at Buttercup is warranted, given the security facility and the high likelihood of local vandalism, as well as the risk to employees of simply being present on the border.

And then there is the "reservation system" language that you see as impending doom is merely stating that they can or could charge additional fees for "the use of a specialized facility, equipment, or service, such as a campground, boat launch, reservation service, or interpretive tour."

Page 25:

RECOMMENDATIONS:

I-1) Develop a communications plan to help to increase sales of passes off-site and via the internet. Internet sales have been troublesome in that visitors who have purportedly purchased such passes sometimes claim that they have not received them. Since internet information sharing is the most common way that visitors want to receive Dunes data, internet sales seem to be a worthwhile approach to continue to explore. More work on enhancing the process, improving data sharing between the vendor and ISDRA, and increasing internet sales is warranted.

Add to that the fact that this is "Statewide language" not specific to our little slice of heaven but not excluding it.

Page 19:

IMPERIAL SAND DUNES RECREATION AREA ON-SITE EVALUATION REPORT

CA Office & Site Staff Who Completed Survey or Were Interviewed by the Evaluation Team: Neil Hamada, Outdoor Recreation Planner; Jamie Neilans, Dunes Supervisor/Recreation Technician

Neil Hamada completed the online pre-work surveys.


These are my personal comments:

And before anyone adds it, I know that Glamis is listed on "Reserve America" but that doesn't mean poop until you can actually reserve a spot.

And you think it's already there why? Just for fun? I do not agree that it is there for no reason.

I do not see how this relates to trash and the dumpsters but it is what it is.

None of this can go forward with out a (3) a permanent trash receptacle system in place. The dumpsters represent this system. They are a step that must be completed before anything else can move forward. The excecutive summary is a nation wide summery, the purpose of it is:

Page 2:

to improve upon the demonstration program by standardizing the types of fees, increasing flexibility for fee revenue expenditures, and authorizing a new national, interagency "America the Beautiful—the National Parks and Federal Recreational Lands Pass" designed to minimize visitor confusion over which passes can be accepted where.

Glamis will come into this system. When? I don't know, but the longer it takes, the better.

And even though the following is from page 4 of the document, it also clearly defines aeras and what recomendations are needed.


State-wide Issues

1. State-wide deferred maintenance planning support and priorities. (Due: 9/31/09)
2. Grant writing support. (Due: 9/31/09)
3. (From Online Surveys Results) There is a possible misunderstanding among fee site staff of the REA definition of a "standard amenity fee", and what is required to properly charge for one. (Due: 9/31/09)
4. (From Online Surveys Results) At least one site, El Centro Hot Springs LTVA, reports not having the appropriate fee logo posted. The State recreation staff needs to ensure that logos are ordered and properly posted at all fee sites. (Due: 12/31/08)

Dumont Dunes OHV

1. Written standard operating procedures for recreation fee collections and deposits. (Due: 6/30/09)
2. Communication plan to increase percent of off-site passes sold. (Due: 6/30/09)
3. Consider putting up a security camera at each entrance (rear and front) to improve safety. (Due: 12/31/08)

Imperial Sand Dunes

1. Written standard operating procedures for recreation fee collections and deposits, if new contract for fee collection is not awarded by beginning of season. (Due: 12/31/08)
2. Communication plan to increase percent of off-site passes sold. (Due: 6/30/09)
3. Consider putting up a security camera at each entrance (rear and front) at Butter Cup site to improve safety. (Due 12/31/08)

To me, these are clear cut issues with no "misconceptions" at all. You are free to disagree with me of course, and I would love for someone to prove i am wrong.

I wish I could prove you wrong, but I don't think I could change your mind no matter what I say, find or prove.

Also I looked at the Reserve America site this morning and I could not find any campgrounds anywhere near Glamis. Please feel free to show me where it is listed.



I don't see why this bothers you that they want to increase the sale of passes on the net and off site. I think that this paragraph is stating just that... This paragraph has nothing to do with reservations. Or the fees that they could charge for "the use of a specialized facility, equipment, or service, such as a campground, boat launch, reservation service, or interpretive tour."

My $.02 FWIW...

I honestly haven't looked the Reserve America web site, but I've heard quite a few times that Keyhole is already there. To me, the next logical point of sale on the net would be the Reserve America web site. They havent had a pass vender that has got it right yet!

If this passage doesn't explain it to you, i supose nothing will...

to improve upon the demonstration program by standardizing the types of fees, increasing flexibility for fee revenue expenditures, and authorizing a new national, interagency "America the Beautiful—the National Parks and Federal Recreational Lands Pass" designed to minimize visitor confusion over which passes can be accepted where.

But in reality, Yarder, Jason and I seem to be in the minority here. The poll I made shows most people are more that willing to have the season pass price increase and services increased as well! I'll buy it. I'll pay it. And do what I'm suposted to do. But that does not mean that I'll like it.

Peace brother.

When I replied above, I was headed out the door to work. Now that I've had time to search for this thread...

Click to find out why this all bothers me so much.

Thanks for putting up the link to Fastlane's thread!!!

I do not want more services in Glamis!

I do not want to pay more for my permit!

I do not want Glamis to become a National Park with a reservation system!

I do not want limits placed on how many visitors are aloowed to come and enjoy Glamis!

I'm not a big drinker but I do want to be able to sit in my camp and enjoy an Ice Cold Delicious Beverage whenever I want to!

I do not think we need the trash dumpsters! What we need is to spread the word to the folks that are leaving their trash behind. Let them know this is absolutely not acceptable!

When I was a kid in Glamis we ALWAYS brought our trash home! We ALWAYS kept our camp clean! We, the duning community need to get back to this......taking your trash home is not the end of the world folks! 99% of you have full size trucks with trailers, TH's or RV's. There is ALWAYS room for a few bags of trash for you to carry back home with you!

I can't think of anything else at the moment but I'll be back when I do!

BOTTOM LINE IS................WE DO NOT NEED TRASH DUMPSTERS IN GLAMIS!!!!! WE NEED TO BE RESPONSIBLE DUNERS AND EDUCATE THOSE AROUND US WHO ARE NOT!!!