A friend brought up tonight that turning brakes could be bad on your transmission. The carrier to be exact. I have NEVER heard of turning brakes messing up anything on a buggy. Then again there is A LOT I have never heard about sandrails. Any expereance one way or the other on this topic/issue?


Thanks.

I have heard both sides say their right. Mechanically it makes sense that it adds stress to the trans but I have not seen or heard of anyone having a broken trans because of it. Does anyone have pics of broken stuff due to turning brakes?

Funco drivers seem to use the hell out of them and I dont think they're experiencing any more failures than the rest of us.

Like anything, you can break it if you work at it..

This is why they have differentials inside them. Same principle as a street car-when you turn, the inside driven tire is on a shorter arc path than the outside driven tire. Consequently, the inside tire will be forced to rotate slower than the outside tire. The differential corrects this with what are called spider gears. When you mash the cutting brake, the inside tire slows/stops, and the diff. kicks in. I have never seen/heard of an issue caused by the use of a turn brake. If you had a spool then this would be a totally different story!

Your friends are whack........USE YOUR TURNING BRAKES.

Holy cow we just did this same thread like a month ago. To summarize: 95% of people say it's cool, 5% say no, and somebody's brother's uncle's pool cleaner guy knows a mechanic that said it was bad. Yoshi will give you a million forumlas and guestimates as to why it's bad and others will agree with him because it sounds cool.

But in the end it's the actual buggy owners that decided this one.

Use your turning brake with no worries.

End of story.

I didn't give formulas and guesstimates, I stated facts as to what exactly happens when you use your turning brake. Whether or not you think the factual stress is harmful to your setup or not is up to you, but you can't deny the gear ratio change when one wheel is locked up and you mash the gas........

Just stay off the gas when using it and you'll be fine

I would think that if turning brakes have a problem so many people wouldnt have them or it would be more known about issues.

How does the gear ratio change??? The rate at which the inside tire is turning changes-not the gears. It is physically impossible to change the gear ratios without taking the transmission apart. AGAIN-this is why the transaxles have differentials inside them!!! The spider gears assume the angular velocity change when you use the turn brake.

My last car,(LS1, 2d, 930s ) I grabbed the turning brakes under power a few times and ended up snapping a stub axle in half. I know alot of people use them this way with no problems but I learned my lesson.

The gear ratio does not change, a diff allows the inner wheel to turn slower in a turn.
While in a turn in a normal car one wheel does not lock up.
When you lock up one wheel you are locking one spider gear and while on the gas it will transfer all its power through one side of the spider gear and it can break the pinion shaft.



Here is my 2 cents.
Can you break a diff by using your turning breaks, yes it is possible.
20 some years ago I ran a beam car with a swing axel trans and a 1776 motor.
One New Years out in Dumont I pulled the turning break and bang I broke a spider gear pinion shaft. I went home and installed, back then we called it a supper diff, after this I had no more trouble.
VW trans have a single set of spider gears the supper diff has two sets of spider gears and two pinion shafts. When you transfer that much power through a single set of spider gears it can break. Pretty sure all Mendi, trans run the supper diff set up now a days.
So I guess what I am saying is, can it happen yes it can, but not likely.
I am old school thinking so I do try to not be on the gas when I use my turning break, but if I need them I use them.

We're not talking about just a diff, we're talking about grabbing the turning brake. The diff spins the wheels at 1:1 ratio. When you lock up one side, the other side will spin 2 times for every time the diff spins once (thanks to the spider gears). To put it in perspective, imaging going hard into a corner and as the rail starts to lug and slow down, you up shift and mash the gas, that's basically what's happening to the free spinning wheel. If you have a stout motor and good traction, the extra stress goes to the driveline/tranny, which is when you can snap a stub axle or something else..

the problem comes from mashing the gas while grabbing the turning brake....

X2
yoshi is right on the one wheel gear ratio change.
not that i know much about turning brakes ..... i like to use the steering wheel and right foot together with torsional "torque sensing" limited slip diffs or plain old spools for traction.... they dont work well together with turning brakes... lol

Thanks very much guys, but please keep em coming OR if you can post the link to the disscussion a month ago. One thing I have learned is that there are different things that "work" for every rail out there, throw in different driving skills with different people in pretty much the same car and saying something works vs the same thing doesn't work is a shot in the dark and a chance we all gotta take and try it until it doesn't work for us.

.02

Heres what I got working. I'm doing a lot of fab work on my old school rail. One option for getting the shifter where it should be would be to eliminate my turning brake. When my rail broke I was just starting to use it (and I liked it)

Another thing is its a Covair. Last week I just installed a 4 gear carrier at $650 for the stock trans while I was swaping out to 4:11s I spent the extra $$$ to get the beefy "for off road use" vs the cheaper "for street use". This friend said "it didn't matter how much I spent, Trannys that cost thousands break all the time." I'd hate to find out later that Oh well ya The 4 spider gear carriers crack like plaster with turning brakes.
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Once I do get out in the dunes with the turning brakes is there a noise I should listen for while I'm using them that would indicate a problem brewing?

Thanks again and sorry if I'm rehashing things from a short time ago. I really do appreceate it.

yeah, if you hear a loud grinding bang, then the motor revs up really high, but the car comes to a stop, that might indicate a problem brewing, lol..

Talk to your tranny guy, he'll tell you (just like our did) that the cutting brakes keep him in business

What I found out you can do and what I will be doing now is push the clutch in then use the cutting brake and no stress is on the tranny.

Just as GEARDOC said the problem occurs when you are under power. Use the cutting brakes to turn when you are off the throttle and you wont have any problems! Or you could just learn to turn without them and never worry!

For years, I turned with the throttle.. Today, I sometimes forget I have turning brakes..

Until last weekend, I didn't even know my car had a turning brake...I used it a few times, it was fun...But Id rather use the throttle and the wheel to make my turns...


I see both sides. we dont hear a lot about people breaking trannys do to turning brakes but some will argue they are bad. Just like we never hear of single shear (did i go there?) problems but people will say the are dangerous.

The best bet is to set up your car to turn without the brake then the problem is solved for you.

For the record, Yoshi, I think your off a bit. Changing where the power comes from does not change ratios. If each side get 50% power, then the other gets all 100%, the gear ratio stays the same. Power and torque ratios may change, but gear or drive ratios will not change.

I'd say, use them if you need them, but be careful with the power when applied.

You heard about the problems, you just chose not to believe them.

i still believe yoshi is right . a "spider gear" diff works in a similar way like a "planetary" gear in a automatic transmission. by "stopping" part of the gear assembly you "change" the gear ratio without a physical gear change.

btw thats exactly the reason why i like planetary transmissions for the sand ; "seamless" ratio change without interruption of the power flow ...quick and easy on CV`s

if you are scared to break stuff you could just stay home!!!!!

Grab a diff next time you can, hold one output shaft so it can't spin, then twist the housing, you'll notice the free spinning output shaft will spin 2 times for every time the diff spins once. When you don't hold one side, and spin the housing, both sides spin 1 time.......