I realize it is illegal in some states, but I have never seen the VC saying that is it illegal in California. Can someone show me the .

I dont remember ever seeing the pics of the guy getting his impounded rig towed away.

That's where I got my info... I got stopped, warned and sent my merry way.

Thanks! I been reading up on pretty much everything related to what we do.
Knowledge is Power.



True, we hear more from a person who knew a person who knew a person....
But at least we are more knowledgable on this...I know I learned something new.



Cool (Noozeye..here is your answer)
Glad all you got was a warning.

Crusty is right (WOW did I just say that?) this type of thread does make you look and think at what you’re doing and maybe make changes for the better. I just don’t believe we’re going to see a real crackdown. There has always been that random stop of a guy for one thing or another but not a crackdown. I can’t help but wonder just how many rigs would be stopped and impounded or forced to spate if the CHP did something like this.

Here's the info for that location:

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/fo/offices/appl/fo_d....jsp?foNumb=614



Here are all of the locations:

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/fo/offices/toc_cdl.htm

And some more info on the license requirements:

http://www.toyhaulermagazine.com/License08.html

As for the hitch, note that the law says it must be sufficiently strong, not that it has to be stamped with a certain value. I would say that unless you've got some rebar and a piece of 16g 2" square tubing back there to haul your FS3400, you're probably not going to get ticketed. Cops get bored and like to write tickets, but they don't like to write tickets that will just waste the court's time.

But, like Crusty said, you still need to take a look at what you're doing.

Not Completely True...

VC SEC 12804.9(A) Requires, a copy of your Medical Report completed and dated within the previous Two years must be continuously on file with the Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV). The Forms DL-51, DL-546, and DL-546A may be obtained from you physican, your employer or by calling DMV at 1-800-777-0133.
The Physician's Health Report Form DL-51 requires a Medical Examination from your Doctor.
The Medical Health Questionaire Form DL-546 requires you to fill out a questionaire and they will accept that in leu of the DL-51 Form.
You must also make an appointment for a "Driving Test" with your Trailer, and you need someone with the correct endorsements to drive it down there. Part of your Driving test is the "Pre-inspection Check List Test" and trust me you don't want to screw this up. I had a friend of mine fail it twice and was told "No Soup For You", Re-schedule another appointment, Better luck next time! It seems that during the Pre-inspection you need to anounce everything you're checking for, and there's close to 50 different items you need to check. Miss more than 3 and it's "No Soup For You".
So it's a little more involved then taking a couple of written tests.

that is needed to get the non-commercial class A license.

here is what page 13 in the Recreational Vehicles and Trailers Handbook from the DMV says.... PAGE 13

RECREATIONAL TRAILER ENDORSEMENT:
A driver must have a fifth-wheel recreational trailer endoresment added to his/her class C license to pull a fifth-wheel recreational trailer over 10,000lbs., but not over 15,000lbs. GVWR, which is not used for hire. This endorsement is not required if the driver has a class A or non-commercial class A driver license.

-there is no fee unless your license expires within 6 months
-you will take a law test for a non-commercial class A license based on the information contained in this booklet. You must also pass the class C law test unless you qualified for a class C license within the past twelve months.
-you are *NOT* required to submit a Health Questionnaire
-you are *NOT* required to take a driving test to add a Recreational Trailer Endorsement to your current license.
-no other tests are required

You are ABSOLUTLY CORRECT, the first part of this Thread was talking about what was required to get a Non-Commercial Class 'A' and I didn't even see where we shifted gears until you pointed it out.
A Recreational Trailer Endorsement is for 5th-Wheel Trailers only, I thought we were still talking about Bumper Pull Trailers. Never Mind!

most of the ballers are pulling 5vers that weigh in over 15,000 lbs, which DO require a non COMM class A license though

bullshisa !!!!!

Remember, hitch ratings, GVW ratings, etc. are from the MANUFACTURER (recommendations) and do not have legal meaning in the state of CA.

In court they might (especially civil), but on the road, the only thing a non-commercial vehicle can be ticketed for against the mfg's numbers is the tires.

That said, there are (as previously mentioned) some "wiggle room" areas where the officer can use his judgment. Does it look safe? Etc.

The mfg's numbers are important. They are helpful. They just are not recognized (except for tires) by the law.




Commercial vehicles are a different story, because you declare your GVW and pay a weight fee every year (heavier vehicles will wear down the HWY more than a lighter vehicle). This puts a direct financial (and therefore, legal) connection to your declared GVW.
On a commercial vehicle, you are not necessarily stuck with the GVW that is on your mfg's sticker. You can declare a different GVW to the DMV and pay the corresponding weight fees.

no worries, i guess we did change gears a bit. just tryin to provide info so peeps can make sure they have the right license requirements for what they are driving/pulling. with whats required to obtain the class A non-commercial, it would be a drag to go thru all that work only to find out later that it wasnt necessary per the state and then be over-licensed. considering if you end up with an enfraction, then theres alot more crap to deal with vs. just traffic school or 1 point on your record.

carry on

Awesome! apparently I'm a "baller" gonna have to show this to the little lady.

x 2......who knew a trailer that cost less than a few quads would qualify as a baller rig.

Gentlemen,

I have interfaced with the commercial CHP regarding length after having been pulled over by one. Here is my story.

I have a 36' class A moho and tow a 24' enclosed Carson Racer trailer. Inside the trailer I have a mid engine VW buggy and a Suspensions Unlimited Sand Pro 2. (yes, fitting them both in was a quite the excersize. 28' of buggy in a 24' box but that is another story).

2 years ago, when turning from hwy 79 south to S-2 south at Warner Springs I passed a commercial CHP, in his truck, who was sitting and observing at this intersection. Interestingly enough, I had read a thread, similar to this one, where claims of CHP stopping people and measuring for length were thrown around. It turned out to be true. Who would have thought?

About 5 miles up the road, I saw the CHP with his lights on coming after me. I wasn't able to pull over for a few more miles as there was no shoulder. Upon pulling over the CHP went directly to the back of his truck. I knew the rolling tape was about to appear. As he was walking to the front of my rig, he was measuring the length.
I greeted him, he returned the greeting. As he approached the drivers door I told him the length was 64' - 8". He replied, "you think so". I told him I knew for a fact. He reached the front and folded up his rolling tape and said to me "sorry to waste your time" and started to walk away.

I asked him what he got and he said 64'- 7". There was a slight angle between moho and trailer. He said he watched me go by and after a few moments just couldn't let it go because he was sure we were over length.
That was the end of our interface. No questions regarding weight, licensing, insurance, registration etc......

Now confession time. We are over our tongue weight rating on the moho hitch but within the load rating of the trailer tires.
We usually take the East side of the Salton Sea now. Less traffic. Less wait at the check points and we avoid downtown Brawley completely.
(YMMV)
Amper

Amper, Remember that the CHP is there to enforce the law only. Your hitch numbers or mfg's recommended capacity has no legal bearing whatsoever. The CHP looks at trailer weight and the type of license required to pull it. The CHP looks at tire load capacities (those actually ARE legal numbers). The CHP looks at overall length and width. That is it.
Believe it or not, they don't even look at GVWR on non-commercial vehicles.


Now, all that said, in the concern for safety, the mfg's numbers MUST be considered. An unstrengthened 5K hitch may pull a 10K trailer, but without proper modifications and bracing, it may not be safe.

I'm new and just got a 04 WW fs3000 about a month ago (alum sided) I have an 06 2500hd duramax pu, so if I understand correctly because of the 13,500 gvw I will need a class a non com license?, upgrade my trucks hitch? I think its rated at 12000 lbs but does that go up with WD? I have a 1400 14000 WD setup and ball, at most I haul 2 quads and a jetski and maybe a seadoo, no water, no fuel. When I bought it I drove from Phoenix to Orange county with my old WD setup for a 26 ft 1000/10000 without a glitch it towed like a dream 75-80 mph thru AZ.........I love that state!

but I wanna be legal too.

It it's a bumper pull, then anything over 10,000 pounds requires a Non-Commercial Class A... 15,500 pounds for a Fifth Wheel. And it doesn't matter what you carry in your trailer.... what it's rated at is what matters. And for sure your hitch has to be rated to match the trailer and tongue weight... if you're not legit on any of those, they could potentially tow your stuff and it's a hefty fine.

Rollo, Your trailer manufacturer's GVWR (R = "rating") stamped on your rig has NOTHING to do with legal vs. not-legal.

The 10k law is for AMOUNT TOWED. It has nothing to do with manufacturer's ratings.
The manufacturer's ratings that have a legal bearing for the CHP are tire ratings. THIS is a question of legality and the CHP can measure this with portable scale mats.

If you load up and you are less than 10,000 lbs., you are within your license class regardless of GVWR of the towed vehicle.

All that said, if your GVWR on your trailer is 13.5k, my guess is that it is a pretty heavy trailer, meaning you can't load very much into it without going over 10K total weight. Have you weighed your trailer?

No I haven't but I will be doing so.

Journeyman, you are the Man!!! I have been trying to explain to people on here for years exactly what you are saying!!

how do you figure? you need to be sure you have the correct license for what you are towing. this is where people in SD have been getting citations. the following is CUT AND PASTED from the CA driver handbook......



meaning, if your BUMPER PULL trailer has a GVWR of 10,001 lbs or higher, you are required to have a non-commercial class A. if your 5TH WHEEL has a GVWR of 15,001 lbs or higher, you are required to have a non-commercial class A.

now, if you have a 5TH WHEEL that has a GVWR of 10,001 lbs - 15,000 lbs, you are required to have a RECREATIONAL TRAILER ENDORESEMENT added to your class C license

No man that is not right. LEO's will "honor the potential" of the trailer so even if it is completely dry and has a GVWR of 10,001 you need a Non Comm. Class A. 15,001 for Fiver. Its written in plain english in the above post!!!

It’s like watching a Bugs Bunny cartoon; It’s rabbit season, no it’s duck season, it’s legal, no it’s not legal.

On the end of your third leg if its long enough

get a commercial class A with a triples/doubles endorsement and don't worry about it. I'll drive your rigs anywhere for a small fee. I'll also check tire pressure, king pin latch, brake play, hydraulic and air systems, lights, load distribution, and tie downs before I leave....hahaha

For commercial vehicles (anything that requires a weight fee), the registered maximum GVWR is a legally binding issue. This registered GVWR may or may not correspond to the manufacturer's number (you can change it on a commercial vehicle with paperwork and of course, a fee). The vehicle code cited earlier (12804.9) includes commercial vehicles. The driver of a commercial vehicle must stay in compliance with legal limits (including weight) of the driving license issued.

all pick up trucks are considered commercial vehicles unless they have a shell topper and have had their classification and registration changed to a non commercial status. hell, even my old el camino is a commercial vehicle and has a weight fee. effin kommifornia

That is a really good point: If you are DRIVING a commercial vehicle (weight fees), and pulling a non-commercial trailer (dedicated RV), which standards apply? I would HOPE that it would not be up to the officer's discretion, but I don't know.

Journeyman,
I am sorry to retort your comments, but I am 100% sure the GVWR of the trailer is what the CHP will be looking at.

If a trailer is Rated to tow 10,001lbs or more (tag along) then you must have a Class A non-commercial license. No exceptions, empty or full you must have the license.
If you have a gooseneck or 5th wheel weighting 10,001 to 15,000 lbs then you need a 5th wheel endorsement.
If you have gooseneck or 5th wheel weighting 15,001 or more then you need a Class A non-commercial license.

I will be happy to post of copy of my Class A Non-commercial license. Which really only proves I can read the driver's manuel, do the inspection, and pass the class A driving test.
If also proves that I actually read the whole darn Class A Non-commercial license handbook.

In my experience this is a grey area for CHP and Most DMV employee's as the Class A non-commerical is not very common. If you have any questions about the requirements the only people who "really" know are the commercial DMV guys and the CHP Commercial inspectors.


http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/dl648/dl648.pdf

The driver's matrix is on page 4

Anthony

Fugu, question for you: Is your tow vehicle a commercial vehicle? This is something that I am unclear on in reading the vehicle code. If you are pulling a dedicated RV i.e. toy hauler with your PU, what exactly is the limit?

The DMV themselves are not careful with terms. For instance, in the handbook they get mixed up with weights and ratings:

"With a class C license you may tow...
A trailer coach not exceeding 9000 Lbs. gross" This is quite clearly talking about actual trailer weight.

But then it says:

"With a class C license you may tow...
A trailer coach or 5th wheel travel trailer under 10,000 lbs. GVWR when towing is not for hire." This is clearly talking about weight rating.

The contradiction comes in their own language when you have a trailer loaded to under 9K gross, with a GVWR of over 10k.

I do not doubt that LEOs are confused by this nor does it surprise me that they look at things like manufacturer's GVWR tags. BUT THIS IS NOT what the law is talking about.

Tire manufacturers have a tight legal relationship with their tire certification and rating numbers. These [sidewall] numbers are, in turn, used as "a legal document" when rendering judgment in civil or criminal decisions.

Trailer manufacturer's have NO SUCH RELATIONSHIP with the legal system; in fact, my guess is that you could talk to a toy trailer mfg. and ask how they came up with the GVWR numbers they have and they would tell you that 'the boss said we need to make it a pound less than 10k' or something similar.

Point here is that the trailer mfg assumes NO legal responsibility for that number. It is merely a recommendation from the mfg.
To use that number as a legal measure, is at best misguided, at worst negligent.

That said, I readily admit the issue of the thread is not what is theoretically legal or not, but what will get you a ticket by the CHP. That really depends on their understanding. You want to avoid getting a ticket, regardless of the officer's legal understanding.

It isn't a mix up at all... In one section they are describing the actual weight and the other is the maximum weight, which is the rating. The CHP checks the sticker on the trailer and on the truck as well as making sure that you have the proper hitch and brake equipment. And they can check the length if they think you are at or over 65'.

We have CHP guys come to our station to do paperwork all the time and I've discussed this at length with one of the regular traffic guys and the commercial enforcement guy... the bottom line is that it is unlawful to tow a bumper pull with a GVWR of 10,000lbs. or more with a Class C license... it requires a Non-Commercial Class A. Same goes with a Fifth Wheel with a GVWR of 15,500lbs. or more. It is also unlawful to tow a trailer with a GVWR greater than your tow vehicle's GCWR. I know this first had for being stopped for towing a 7,000lb GVWR trailer with a vehicle that was only rated to tow 6,400lbs.

I tow with a 1999 Ford F250

If you have a Class C license then the GVWR of your trailer must be 10,000 lbs or lower.

However you may not tow more than 9,000 actual pounds. ie. trailer, buggy, water, gear, etc must be 9,000 or less. Also your vehicle must weight at least 4,000 unloaded (curb weight).

If your vehicle is less than 4,000 lbs curb weight then your gross trailer weight must be 6,000 or less and the GVWR of the trailer must be 10,000 or less.

The Actual weight (Gross Weight) of the trailer is totally different from the GVWR. The GVWR is the MAXIMUM weight the trailer can hold.

Their is no contradiction. The GVWR is separate from the Gross Weight trailer. For example if you tow a trailer with a GVWR of 40,000 lbs and it's empty with a Gross (actual) weight of 5,000 lbs without a class A license you are towing out of class.

I suggest you call Zieman and ask them to clarify how they figure out the Vehicle's GVWR. This is beyond my expertise. I have spoke with them and have found them to be very informative and helpful.