First off, as many here know, I'm a police officer. My bias towards those in my profession doing their job that no one likes and few understand must be acknowledged. That being said, I'm going to relay a thumbnail sketch of an incident that happened to a friend in my group Sat. night at Olds, a few of my observations, and what's being looked into at this point.

Sat. night: three of my friends are at base of Olds in a four seat sandrail, two other friends and I are parked next to them in my truck. Decent sized crowd at the hill, midnight rolls around, the law enforcement contingent of Imperial Co. SO, BLM, and (I'm told) Forest Service personnel form a line with their vehicles on the south side and get ready to move/signal time to leave as they have done for years. They put up lights/sirens at 2410, I tell my friends to load up and we roll on out/no issues. My buddy belts in his girlfriend in the right rear passenger seat (car facing eastbound), and then leaves approx. 5 minutes after me. As I was leaving, I noticed crowd was about 60% gone/moving from what had been there at 2330. No one other than my truck/buddy's sand car were around our vehicles for at least 60 feet when I pulled away. No hostile folks taunting the LE vehicles/ personnel to my east (their line was approx. 100 yards east) , when I left. As I'm driving out towards where the sand hwy. meets to Vendors, I spot my friend's car to the side with his girlfriend on the ground (they had passed me without me noticing), crying with obvious signs of being hit with pepper spray. The others in the car tell me that as they were pulling away, they saw a solo uniformed officer on foot point a pepper ball gun towards their car and fire two rounds at the car, striking the female in the right chest (impact spot on jacket), from approx. 75 feet. The girl told the other three that she had been hit, they did'nt believe her initially until she began feeling the effects of the OC, and they spotted the impact on her jacket and frag from the capsules in the back seat.

I put the girl in my truck with her boyfriend and flagged down a BLM EMT who directed me to the Gecko Rd. Station for treatment/report. Upon arrival, I asked to speak to an Imperial County SO Sergeant. The Imperial County Sgt. took the girlfriend and other passenger statements, photographed/observed, acknowledged the impact spot on the jacket, and the girl (Lindsey), was treated with eyewash.

After taking statements, from the occupants of the sand car, all three described the shooter of the pepperball gun as a BLM Ranger. I confirmed two BLM agents and two Imperial Co. SO's on scene had these guns.
ALL BLM AGENTS DENIED DEPLOYING OR SHOOTING THE GUNS THAT NIGHT

Now, as a Police Officer of 18 years, and having been on plenty of skirmish lines with hostile crowds, I always acknowledged/documented using less lethal force, whether it be a baton, 37mm, etc., and gave the general description of where I fired it, how many rounds who I fired it at. I'll be the first to say there are ALWAYS two sides to any incident with LE and I WAS NOT THERE at the time of this incident. That being said, IT PAINS ME to see others in my profession DENY they used less lethal force on someone, LET ALONE SAY THERE WAS ANY ISSUE WITH THIS GROUP IN THE SAND CAR. They did not report ANY incident with this car (car info. given to Imperial Co. Sgt.),or anyone (me) standing near it.

I also hate to say it, but I know had I not taken the time to get my friends to the station, say who I was, and be present with the jacket, this incident would have been brushed off by the BLM. I won't post what I saw but let's just say the "se la vie, care free" attitude by the BLM from the scene now outside the station all turned to "uh oh" looks when I walked up with the jacket for photos. They all were standing around the station as I talked to the Sgt., (I wonder why?-not)

As I said, there's two sides to every story, then there's the truth. The fact no LE officer at that scene,nor their supervisors admitted that someone fired OC pepper balls at Olds that night is wrong on a lot of levels, and speaks volumes for a void in leadership and accountability with that agency.

There are times for less lethal everywhere, but in California, it has to be documented,not covered up.

Gary/Doubleduty

I've contatced ASA, Imperial Co. SO is conducting an investigation and big thanks to the Sgt. who took me seriously and was professional to my 24 year friend, who obviously was in shock in being hit by two pepperballs for reasons unknown to her.

I left my info. with the Sgt. and anyone from BLM is free to PM me here if they would like to discuss this further.

I hope this incident (while not nice for your female friend) points out or clarrifies a possible training issue now at the start of the season for many vs. this being something ongoing.

We are held as citizens to obey the laws, as so should the LEO's be held to follow procedure.

Thank you Gary for taking the time to go let this issue be heard upon by the appropriate folks in charge.

I truly hope they (BLM, LEO Agency) discuss this and the proper procedure/documentation at their next meeting.









Hope she feels better too.

I would like to hope that you will continue to follow up on this incident and keep us posted here. This type of respectful, detailed reporting is what is needed to force a change in how law enforcement conducts itself out there.

The ICSO has to close off Olds a few times a season to justify keeping Comp closed on holiday weekends. I am not convinced that it’s all that necessary.

JMO

This just pisses me off. What if she had been hit in the eye, or the throat???

Thanks Crusty,

You know I've been pretty biased as to always looking for at least a reason why an officer has decided to use force on incidents discussed on this site over the years. Denying force was used at all on an incident is completely wrong.

An old saying us senior guys tell the rookies: "Lying is Dying". It applies to all, but to our profession even more.

My friends felt they recognized the the agent who fired the shots at the station but were not 100% sure. I had concluded talking to the Sgt. and went back to get him. As I was relaying this information, this said agent walked behind the station, around my truck to his jeep, and took off his load vest, then walked back. Coincidence? Based on my reading of things from my job, I'd say....not. But, my friend's were'nt 100% but the Sgt. got his name.

On a personal level, I wanted to to talk to that agent one on one, cop to cop, but that's not the way to handle this issue, and calm professinalism,no matter how wrong this incident was, is what makes for things to change.

L/L, I'd agree with you based on my observations the last three years of holidays out there.

Or if she hadnt been with an off duty LEO... Us reg folks have no chance...

Good job DD!

That ranger needs a new career, no need for itchy trigger fingers at Glamis.
Glad your friend was ok.

One wonders how many other folks got used for target practice and didn't report it.

DD, great post and I think most of us understand your point of view. I always try to understand that it is the officers’ duty to uphold the law, but when a LEO takes the law in to their own hands jeopardizes the safety of the public you are sworn to protect something must be done.

Here again I wonder how many times something like this may have happened and it been swept under the carpet. The amount of LEO's has increased significantly over the years in the dunes and from what I am seeing the population of recreational users out there is diminishing as compared to years past.

I have read stories on the board here from campers being harassed multiple times while in camp. Is this and all of the extra patrols necessary? I think that you'll find that the LEO claims will be yes, as they will claim arrests are down comparatively. When in actuality the number of people visiting the ISDRA is way down. IMO

I hope something positive comes from you shedding some light on what appears to be a wreckless act.

Nice work Gary

I don't know, just asking the questions.

Are the officers rounds counted prior to starting and at the end of the shift? I would assume that regular ammo would be but what about less than lethal stuff (hell, maybe regular ammo isn't even counted)? If so, that would have ended this entire thing right from the beginning.

DD...thanks for taking the time to report this. Unfortunately, it takes a certain amount of credibility for the "brass" to take these complaints seriously. I'm glad you were willing to stand up to this. As a community, unless we report every incident of abuse, it will never stop. There are times when force is needed, but it sure seems to be used a LOT in Glamis.

Great job DD. Thanks for sticking up for us "regular" folks!!! Your right, anyone without a badge would not have been takin seriously...

Great job Gary. We, as LEO's, dont need this kind of crap going on and the public should never be subject to that kind of chit. Make sure they follow up, and conduct a thorough investigation.

I cant even imagine minding my own business, not making trouble and my wife or daughters getting shot with a pepper ball. This is unbelievable. And .... If the officer is lying about this what else would he lie about. Sounds like some possible very serious abuse of power. Wow

There is a saying in LE about internal investigations..... "you lie, you die"

IF there is an investigation and they can prove that he lied he will be FIRED.

Thank you for following up on this... I'm very interested in the outcome. Many of us, including myself, have had some bad experiences with the LEOs out there.

Just got to thinking....the suspected officer was BLM right? I know you talked to an ICSO Sgt that was helping you out, but you might want to think about having BLM do an internal investigation...

I guess you could start by calling the BLM complaint/commendation line they provided us. (760)337-4471.

I have it saved in my phone and plan on using it, hopefully for commendations and professionalism....I HOPE

sorry about your friend, DD. i hope someone gets nailed to the wall on this one. you seem like the type of person these clowns shouldn't mess with.

what are the policies on inventoring ammo before and after shifts? that idea seems obvious to me as well but i have no LE experience or knowledge.

I agree, I don't think that they are getting rid of the people that need to be rid of in doing random camp sweeps. I believe they are pushing away the people who really support and love the sport by harassing us. I was a victim of the multiple camp sweep situation at the tail end of last season, same officers everytime. They were completely disrespectful to me and my friends for no apparant reason. I shouldn't feel nervous everytime I see a LEO, but I do, and no, I don't have anything to hide and am legit with all documentation for all vehicles. Definately puts a damper on what used to be considered a vacation from reality. Now I have to tip toe around my camp and make sure a gum wrapper doesn't stray from a table top to keep from being harassed.

I hope this gets resolved and your friend isn't scared away by guys like this. Unfortunate situation for sure. Keep us posted! We need more people with your credibility to help create some change.

Thanks for stepping up DD, I have been there and seen some questionable citation writing with no officer observation of the violation that he is citing someone for. They seem to cite alot of folks on the persumption of "you were in the area of that violation so I assume that it's you". But I know that's a totally different issue. Anyways good luck on the investigation. I know that I have yanked on your tail in the past but I was just giving you a hard time. I probably would have done the same as you but on a Saturday night in Glamis I would have been HBD and not very credible.

Okay, latest update:

Just got off the phone with BLM supervisor Nieves (Lieutenant level) of the El Centro office. He told me that none of his agents had pepper ball guns at Olds Sat. night. The Imperial Co. Sgt. told me two of their agents and two ICSO Deputies had pepper ball guns on Sat. night.

The initial investigation is being handled by Imperial County S.O. I will post updates when I get them.

Thanks for the support everyone.

On a side note, this was Lindsey's second time to Glamis, she works for an electrical co., is about all of 5'2 and 90 lbs. Very crummy end to her halloween, she had never had O.C. hit her before, it's always bad the first time and took about 60 minutes to flush all the junk out. She understands the need for officers to used less lethal in a crowd control situation and that innocents get hit, but to have no one step up and say they did it and why? Very frustrating (of course) It really puts a lump in your stomach when your friends outside the job have to have something so unexplainable happen to them, and then try to rationalize (I can't) why no supervisor at scene was'nt on their squads that night to find out who fired off a round if there was no order to do so, or no one reported the need to do it.

Our department keeps records of how many 37mm "rubber flex baton rounds", 40 mm sabot rounds and pepper balls are issued. There is no standard for that accountability for agencies in Ca. though.

And to clarify, all four occupants of the sand rail saw a uniformed (one) officer walking in front of the line of LE trucks holding the pepper ball gun, as they were pulling away to turn left to head out, hence the shots hitting Lindsey seated in the right rear passenger seat.

x-2 imagine a bald headed Hispanic walking in and asking to talk to the Sargent ..Lol

Perhaps this is the type of incident that would change that. It seems strange to me that this is not a standard policy to count round before and after a shift. I'm sure that it would be deemed to costly in time and man hours but oh well.

I'm sure some LE personnel would call this unnecessary but it only takes one bad apple to cause problems for the bunch (at least that's what they tell us when they toughen the policy's on us...)



Wonder who's right on this. Is the ISCO wrong in saying they BLM had pepper ball guns or does Nieves not know what's going on with his people (as I'm betting he wasn't actually there)


Did either of these agencies give you their particular procedures on ammunition (lethal or otherwise) count in/out procedures?

Big thanks to DD for stepping up. Hopefully they find the guy who pulled the trigger.

You know,

I'm starting to think that the pepper spray balls were shot by hoodlums because my buddy just texted me asking if were bombed. Said he heard of a few people getting hit a few cars down from where they were at Olds....

Hmmm...

Nice job gary to stand up to what happened and able to get somewhere.Pepperball gun is way too much without giving a warnng to move.If someone had a broken rail and cant move what are there choices?Get shot first then asked later what is wrong?I hope this gets the sheriffs attn on these kind of matters.

But you know if it was someone else who complained some of the same people who complimented you would be on here saying that the victim did something wrong or didnt move fast enough,was a problem,etc.

"If you we're doing anything wrong you wouldn't have gotten shot"





































just in case,

RBJcampi,

I should have asked what the policy was, I did'nt in dealing with everything else that night.

77charger,

I read about other paintball incidents. Deal is, all four occupants in the car saw the officer holding the pepperball gun. There was no one standing to the right (east) of the sand rail, except for the officers. Lindsey was seated in the right rear seat, just adding up what information I got that night, seems pretty slight chance someone else fired off a ball at the right rear of the car as it was turning at about 5mph when only the LE line was there.


Driver is 32, restaurant manager

Front passenger is 38, owns A/C biz.

Left rear passenger is 28, 10 years active USMC, 3 tours of Iraq, and Lindsey in the right rear seat

These occupants were'nt kids, goof offs, or ones that could'nt make decent observations....

all the information in red is 2000% irrelevant. shouldn't matter what you are, who you are, or what you do for a living. or does it?

it's obvious so far, that you believe your friends were the victim of poor law enforcement, poor decision making, deceit, and corruption. if it's true, i'm sorry to hear that...but it happens. don't let a bad apple ruin the whole barrel of blm leo's for you....

there are always 3 sides to every story. civilian side, leo side, and what really happend. if you are wrong, its a double edged eh? if you are right, then your friends are now victims of an individual with poor law enforcement skills. victims of what so many have had happen to them, but many, including your self, have defended with your leo bias. and save us the "you wouldn't understand because you have never done the job" dribble. you have never done my job either, and probably dont understand the first thing about what i do. which is also much more dangerous than what you do.

like rbjcampi said, if they weren't doing anything wrong, why were they allegedly shot by leo's with pepper balls?

And I firmly believe that the abusive LEOs in Glamis count on that... In my opinion, they figure there is a bit of leeway and a "your word against mine" situation in these cases.

What if it wasn't a LEO who shot it and just some hoodlum?

go back and re-read what he and i posted....you are missing something....

I have heard of others too that have been posted here and i am sure with you experience you are able to figure it out and probably know for sure.I am just glad your word is going somewhere vs if the same thing happened to me or any other law abiding citizen.We would probably get arrested just for trying to file a complaint.LOL

Just so no one miss understands what I wrote, I was just piggybacking on this statement




Seems that when we do have an incident involving LEO's, there is a group that comes on to defend them and the statement "If your not doing anything wrong, you wouldn't have anything to worry about" is usually one of the first made.

Now of course we have both groups, those that are first to defend the LEO's, and those that are first to defend the "others", regardless of who knows what in the actual incident.

Maybe we should make big signs that read "Don't tase me Bro" "and that includes Pepper Spray" I think all LEOs should have an in and out ammo count. Bullets and Pepper Paint Balls, or what ever they are using at the time. Dean

Say cheese,

You totally read my post wrong.

I posted what and who the occupants of that car were for ONE REASON: the fact that they were ADULTS that can make a decent observation and have real world experience, no one's perfect but those with some experience in life tend to make better witnesses, that's a fact.

Did I infer they never do anything wrong? OF course not. Did I say that I was'nt there? YES

Back off your throttle and leave your machismo at the door. Nothing I have written here has to do with what I do nor makes me any more important than anyone one else, ONLY that I can see both sides just a LITTLE better than most on these types of incidents.

Let's please get back to the topic at hand. If you Saychz would think I would fat mouth a whole department as sub par based on one agent's actions, you really would wonder how I got to where I am, I sure would lol.

Have I heard of officers that "let one off" in the form of getting away with something (infer possible hit the car and let the occupants get a smell of OC), yes, I've heard stories, and in the case of getting in an extra hit/taze/etc., and were caught, they got a heavy hit or fired.

We'll let the investigation run it's course

Thanks DD for stepping up cause if it would of happened to a civilian the leo's would of just swept ed it under the rug or said that the people did something wrong. but in the end I really believe that leo's just going to get a slap on the wrist if he steps up or when he's caught

Man I hate hearing stories like this...but it happens. And unlike what some people say or think, it's a very rare occurrence and completely UNACCEPTABLE in the LEO business. Agencies are not in the business of doing intense background investigations on new hires and then keeping someone on that's a LIABILITY to an organization. If a cop is caught in a lie....besides being a black eye and an embarrassment to an LE agency, they're USELESS in court (Brady Law). They lie, they're done, fired, never to be re-hired...so those of you with your negative "this happens all the time
' comments....maybe that's what you "see" on the news or through your eyes, but the news doesn't talk about the 99.999% of calls and other contacts that are done right. It's not news worthy.

As far as I remember (I used to teach pepper ball training), there's only one company making them, they hold a patent and they only sell to law enforcement. So the "Theory" of it being someone other then one of the LEO's is probably not in play.

Double D, I hope after you left, a supervisor interviewed each one of those guys carrying the weapons and those around them. If it was one of the LEO's, he not only needs to be fired...but possibly prosecuted. Not sure how much info you'll be able to provide us on the investigation...the laws don't allow them to discuss much from their end, but you'll be able to get your friends side of things if they re-interview. Unfortunate to have happened to your friend or anyone else for that matter.

Wow, it seems some of the people who are supposed to protect us,
have become the element they are supposed to protect us from.

There are loser's, incompetent people in ALL trades.... Sucks for sure, but the way it is.

In most counties ANYTIME a LEO firearm is discharged there is a mandatory investigation. The "D's" usually work the case and they are referenced as the cops of cops. They are tough as nails and call it as it is without protecting their own as they are charged with the highest moral standard in the LEO profession.

im not, nor have i ever been an anti law enforcement type of person. i was simply making some observations on your posts'.

fact is, there are many bad apples out there doing your job. but there are many many more exponentially out there doing your job that are outstanding members of a law enforcement agency. just trying to make a few biased individuals understand that people get harassed, mistreated, cited, arrested, for no good reason other than the fact that the leo is a douche bag. it happens.....sorry you had to see your profession disgraced they way you say it did. it always hurts. i have seen several people in my line of work disgrace our job. hurts inside, and puts a serious black eye on the trade. i don't like it either....

hopefully your friends come out of this the winner, and some discipline is handed out to the individual that did this to them.

good day officer gary....

Power in numbers.

DD,
Thanks for looking into this. I have been hassled by LEO's and realize that mostly they are trying to keep us safe. Incidents like this make law abiding citizens less cooperative and more suspect when the LEO's show up.

I just wish I had a +20 yr LEO in my camp.

I have learned one thing at Glamis over the years...

When they start the sweep at the Hill, pack up and move out ASAP.


Don't twiddle your fingers or finish your Beer....Get out.

DD is doing us all a service by looking into this issue and his position definitely holds more clout than the average Joe.


But bottom line is always, Roll out when the LEO's hit their lights.

X2!!!

Time to move on...

I seriously think it is getting time to bring this incident to the attention of the media.

While I realize this is the practical thing to do, I still don't see any reason for them to be sweeping through and clearing Olds when the groups are peacefully relaxing. If there were out of control drunken mobs, I can see doing something to break it up, but this particular weekend did not warrant this type of action, based on DD's post.