While I realize this is the practical thing to do, I still don't see any reason for them to be sweeping through and clearing Olds when the groups are peacefully relaxing. If there were out of control drunken mobs, I can see doing something to break it up, but this particular weekend did not warrant this type of action, based on DD's post.

They're rangers, and don't get anywhere near the training that real LEOs get. It's also obvious from this incident, they don't hold themselves to the same high standards that LEOs hold themselves to.

This just pisses me off. What if she had been hit in the eye, or the throat???

I have learned one thing at Glamis over the years...

When they start the sweep at the Hill, pack up and move out ASAP.


Don't twiddle your fingers or finish your Beer....Get out.

DD is doing us all a service by looking into this issue and his position definitely holds more clout than the average Joe.


But bottom line is always, Roll out when the LEO's hit their lights.

Agreed.

Does anyone have the documentation on how they determine "When" the hill gets shut down?

I've seen it here before....

Is it not time to start pushing back on getting the enforcement of the hill at night removed?

Can they prove the issues that caused all this still exist?

The Hill night closures are not based on any science by eco freaks.....so its really a battle between LEO/BLM and Duners.

There is no "Cultish" 3rd party involved.

Latest info.:

I contacted an organization involved with the dunes and they got the following response from BLM:

BLM claims they did not have anyone with/no one trained to use pepperball guns at the hill Sat. night.

That being said, they (BLM) told this contact that ICSO DID deploy pepper balls after they felt that as they were clearing the crowd, some people were circling back towards their line.

Now, if a Deputy mistook the sand rail making a left turn (parked eastbound-turning to leave west bound) as circling back, I actually could understand his mistake and deployment. I still think from being there 3-4 minutes before, and seeing that very few people (no vehicles) were between my friends and the line, that the shooter officer would have been able to identify that the car had been parked.

Now, with that information given on Monday to this agency, WHY was'nt it relayed to the ICSO Sgt. I spoke to Sat. night?

The ICSO also said their cause to move the crowd, deploy the pepper balls was due to an unruly crowd near a stripper pole. I never saw this pole, I did see one group of approximately 20 young people hollering it up upon my arrival at 2200. They were parked in the first "row" approximately 75 yards east of me. I saw LEO trucks go to this crowd approx. 30 minutes before they lined up on the far side and I saw that this crowd had dispersed when I rolled out.


The investigation is ongoing, once again I was'nt there at the time of the incident, but again, if most So. Cal agencies deploy pepper balls or other less lethal, it's reported to their supervisors on scene,and to the incident command post, within an hour, this was'nt MacArthur Park, or the Coliseum, been there, moved that, they had the time to report it.

As for staying out late at Olds, Crusty, as soon as I saw the light bars on, I told my friends to mount up. I respect the fact the LEO's out there have a job to do and I don't want to be in their way.

The info. now is that they choose/chose to move folks out as a result of this stripper pole and called it an unusual occurrence (UO), which gives them the power to do so. As said earlier, that same authority also dictates reporting use of less lethal munitions.

Others that were there that night feel free to chime in, I can say that I did not see a hostile crowd at the west end by the line when I left, plenty of others on this board that might have seen something crowd wise I did'nt.

I don't see where shooting something at people is EVER OK out there unless it's a dire emergency..
Help me understand here....?

What are your sources to back up this statement?

Im not going to second guess any LEO/ Ranger as they have a thankless job and I wasnt there, BUT, even on the reality TV shows the coppers almost always videotape jail use of force or the guy they just tasered.

Should the BLM/ ICSO be smart enough to cover there butts? This lady could easily file a lawsuit and it may stick because she wasnt charged, there was no documented riot, and the BLM/ ICSO is playing he said- he said.



Maybe as Duners this season we should keep logs of an and all LEO contacts good and bad- name/ agency/ location/ notes etc. If enough peeps do this AND report EVERY questionable contact to BLM hotline/ ICSO, maybe, just maybe there will be a correlation with a few bad apples...

I can confirm there was a stripper poll. Third row back, towards the south end that later became the middle. It pulled up and parked next to us.

Poll was mounted on top of a UTV. At first it was just one girl dancing, in jeans and a sweat shirt. Then a guy in a stripper outfit / costume. ICSO came by and for a while illuminated the pole. They talked to the folks and left. They apparently requested a buggy that had HIDs shinning on the pole shut his lights off and he did. There was no nudity or nothing of that sort. In fact despite being less than 20 feet from the pole, I could not hear the music from the UTV. After a bit some girls dressed in costume walked by and got on the pole. Clearly not their first time.

They drew a larger crowd. About 100+ people. The crowd was chanting “Show us your ( @ Y @ )” but other than that it was pretty subdued. Again ICSO comes by, just checks and sees no big deal and leaves. No nudity, no loud music basically a girl moving around on top of a UTV with a fence post stuck through the top. At worst it was a traffic hazard as folks would stop and stare / watch and then the flow of traffic between the rows was blocked. After about 30 minutes of this, the BLM comes with a show of force /man power including at least one K9. (Out of their trucks I assume it was all BLM as that was the markings I saw on the closest guy to me – may have been both BLM and ICSO)

Nobody scuffled; nobody acted stupid. The crowd started chanting “rooster Block, rooster Block” but that was far from hostile. The poll was taken down and the crowd started to disperse. If I had to characterize the group I would say totally relaxed and just hanging out. Maybe a few drunks but nothing obnoxious or out of hand. We left about the same time / shortly after the rangers left. Before they made the sweep to clear it all out. On the way out the was another pole with large furry creatures dancing – think mascots – this was not drawing a crowd.

If they are hiding behind the “unruly crowd at the stripper pole” then they damn sure did not see the same pole that I was at and it had already been removed before they shut it all down.


*****
edit to add picture.

I posted about being stopped all the time last season and got a lot of 'walks like a duck, talks like a duck, blah blah blah" Just goes to show you that it happens to everyone and just cause it happens to young kids the old folks on this board shouldn't just look the other way. We make take the brunt of it but eventually it effects everyone, regardless of how much the bill of your baseball cap curves.

Lame lame lame - If as many people complained about how I conduct business as they do about how the BLM do their jobs i would be just another failed company. It would be pretty fun if I could shoot my customers with pepper spray every time they annoyed me. "Your last invoice is 70 days past due. You can't pay? Ok, hold on while I go get my pepper gun."

it almost sounds like a blm officer borrowed or was loaned a pepper ball gun / paintball gun . and just wanted to shoot it. from reading this it sounds as if there is no plausable explanation for shooting ANYTHING .

even if people were trying to go around the blm line . it is absurd for them to determine this as an impending threat. With increasing complaints on this site alone would suggest that the leos from both departments are getting a lil carried away. or there views of the type of people camping at the dunes is destorted.

My first thought was, just inspect all guns to see if any had been fired! Now if something like the highlighted above did happen, there is a real bad officer out there somewhere.

Co2 guns won't necessarily leave traces, but most often the pepperball rounds have to be accounted for since they are a special munition.....

I posted about being stopped all the time last season and got a lot of 'walks like a duck, talks like a duck, blah blah blah" Just goes to show you that it happens to everyone and just cause it happens to young kids the old folks on this board shouldn't just look the other way. We make take the brunt of it but eventually it effects everyone, regardless of how much the bill of your baseball cap curves.

I can confirm there was a stripper poll. Third row back, towards the south end that later became the middle. It pulled up and parked next to us.

Poll was mounted on top of a UTV. At first it was just one girl dancing, in jeans and a sweat shirt. Then a guy in a stripper outfit / costume. ICSO came by and for a while illuminated the pole. They talked to the folks and left. They apparently requested a buggy that had HIDs shinning on the pole shut his lights off and he did. There was no nudity or nothing of that sort. In fact despite being less than 20 feet from the pole, I could not hear the music from the UTV. After a bit some girls dressed in costume walked by and got on the pole. Clearly not their first time.

They drew a larger crowd. About 100+ people. The crowd was chanting “Show us your ( @ Y @ )” but other than that it was pretty subdued. Again ICSO comes by, just checks and sees no big deal and leaves. No nudity, no loud music basically a girl moving around on top of a UTV with a fence post stuck through the top. At worst it was a traffic hazard as folks would stop and stare / watch and then the flow of traffic between the rows was blocked. After about 30 minutes of this, the BLM comes with a show of force /man power including at least one K9. (Out of their trucks I assume it was all BLM as that was the markings I saw on the closest guy to me – may have been both BLM and ICSO)

Nobody scuffled; nobody acted stupid. The crowd started chanting “rooster Block, rooster Block” but that was far from hostile. The poll was taken down and the crowd started to disperse. If I had to characterize the group I would say totally relaxed and just hanging out. Maybe a few drunks but nothing obnoxious or out of hand. We left about the same time / shortly after the rangers left. Before they made the sweep to clear it all out. On the way out the was another pole with large furry creatures dancing – think mascots – this was not drawing a crowd.

If they are hiding behind the “unruly crowd at the stripper pole” then they damn sure did not see the same pole that I was at and it had already been removed before they shut it all down.


*****
edit to add picture.

Just to have some fun on Monday….lol..




On this I’ll disagree. If you CHOOSE to look like you belong with the flock of ducks, don’t crybaby when you get treated like a duck. You want that tough guy ‘image’ that goes with the duck look. Tough guys don’t mind getting hassled by The Man. It’s part of being a duck.

Female in that pic looks "Thick".



Carry on

Just to have some fun on Monday….lol..




On this I’ll disagree. If you CHOOSE to look like you belong with the flock of ducks, don’t crybaby when you get treated like a duck. You want that tough guy ‘image’ that goes with the duck look. Tough guys don’t mind getting hassled by The Man. It’s part of being a duck.

First off, as many here know, I'm a police officer. My bias towards those in my profession doing their job that no one likes and few understand must be acknowledged. That being said, I'm going to relay a thumbnail sketch of an incident that happened to a friend in my group Sat. night at Olds, a few of my observations, and what's being looked into at this point.

Sat. night: three of my friends are at base of Olds in a four seat sandrail, two other friends and I are parked next to them in my truck. Decent sized crowd at the hill, midnight rolls around, the law enforcement contingent of Imperial Co. SO, BLM, and (I'm told) Forest Service personnel form a line with their vehicles on the south side and get ready to move/signal time to leave as they have done for years. They put up lights/sirens at 2410, I tell my friends to load up and we roll on out/no issues. My buddy belts in his girlfriend in the right rear passenger seat (car facing eastbound), and then leaves approx. 5 minutes after me. As I was leaving, I noticed crowd was about 60% gone/moving from what had been there at 2330. No one other than my truck/buddy's sand car were around our vehicles for at least 60 feet when I pulled away. No hostile folks taunting the LE vehicles/ personnel to my east (their line was approx. 100 yards east) , when I left. As I'm driving out towards where the sand hwy. meets to Vendors, I spot my friend's car to the side with his girlfriend on the ground (they had passed me without me noticing), crying with obvious signs of being hit with pepper spray. The others in the car tell me that as they were pulling away, they saw a solo uniformed officer on foot point a pepper ball gun towards their car and fire two rounds at the car, striking the female in the right chest (impact spot on jacket), from approx. 75 feet. The girl told the other three that she had been hit, they did'nt believe her initially until she began feeling the effects of the OC, and they spotted the impact on her jacket and frag from the capsules in the back seat.

I put the girl in my truck with her boyfriend and flagged down a BLM EMT who directed me to the Gecko Rd. Station for treatment/report. Upon arrival, I asked to speak to an Imperial County SO Sergeant. The Imperial County Sgt. took the girlfriend and other passenger statements, photographed/observed, acknowledged the impact spot on the jacket, and the girl (Lindsey), was treated with eyewash.

After taking statements, from the occupants of the sand car, all three described the shooter of the pepperball gun as a BLM Ranger. I confirmed two BLM agents and two Imperial Co. SO's on scene had these guns.
ALL BLM AGENTS DENIED DEPLOYING OR SHOOTING THE GUNS THAT NIGHT

Now, as a Police Officer of 18 years, and having been on plenty of skirmish lines with hostile crowds, I always acknowledged/documented using less lethal force, whether it be a baton, 37mm, etc., and gave the general description of where I fired it, how many rounds who I fired it at. I'll be the first to say there are ALWAYS two sides to any incident with LE and I WAS NOT THERE at the time of this incident. That being said, IT PAINS ME to see others in my profession DENY they used less lethal force on someone, LET ALONE SAY THERE WAS ANY ISSUE WITH THIS GROUP IN THE SAND CAR. They did not report ANY incident with this car (car info. given to Imperial Co. Sgt.),or anyone (me) standing near it.

I also hate to say it, but I know had I not taken the time to get my friends to the station, say who I was, and be present with the jacket, this incident would have been brushed off by the BLM. I won't post what I saw but let's just say the "se la vie, care free" attitude by the BLM from the scene now outside the station all turned to "uh oh" looks when I walked up with the jacket for photos. They all were standing around the station as I talked to the Sgt., (I wonder why?-not)

As I said, there's two sides to every story, then there's the truth. The fact no LE officer at that scene,nor their supervisors admitted that someone fired OC pepper balls at Olds that night is wrong on a lot of levels, and speaks volumes for a void in leadership and accountability with that agency.

There are times for less lethal everywhere, but in California, it has to be documented,not covered up.

Gary/Doubleduty

I've contatced ASA, Imperial Co. SO is conducting an investigation and big thanks to the Sgt. who took me seriously and was professional to my 24 year friend, who obviously was in shock in being hit by two pepperballs for reasons unknown to her.

I left my info. with the Sgt. and anyone from BLM is free to PM me here if they would like to discuss this further.

I have learned one thing at Glamis over the years...

When they start the sweep at the Hill, pack up and move out ASAP.


Don't twiddle your fingers or finish your Beer....Get out.

DD is doing us all a service by looking into this issue and his position definitely holds more clout than the average Joe.


But bottom line is always, Roll out when the LEO's hit their lights.

this does seem like the smart thing to do. however, you are not required to leave.
one instance: i arrived late to G at like 9pm, unloaded and went straight to olds. I didnt even pack any beer as i just wanted to drive my car. I was hanging at olds and they started the sweep. when they got to me and told me to leave i said "why"? "im not doing anything wrong" he said because "i said so". i then told him "i have an imperial sand dunes pass and last i checked this was the ISD's still, i said show me in writing that i cant be here", we arent allowed at comp and its in writing. I wasnt drinking and was feeling a lil brave that night. I told him that i wasnt leaving and that i was allowed and had paid to be here. He gave me a weird look and just moved on to the next guys.. you know why he did that? because he knew i was right. you do not need to leave when they do that, its probably your best bet though as most have had a couple beers or more. anyway they do not have the right to clear the hill, they just do it cuz everyone is scared and just complies with anything a leo says even when they arent doing anything wrong. we need to stand up for our rights!!! we paid to be there!!!
easy fix is just sit up top til they leave then go claim one of the 500 abandoned fires. thats where i was during the HW pepperball incident.

T this happen after I left that night???

I don't know, just asking the questions.

Are the officers rounds counted prior to starting and at the end of the shift? I would assume that regular ammo would be but what about less than lethal stuff (hell, maybe regular ammo isn't even counted)? If so, that would have ended this entire thing right from the beginning.

probably would be a great pic if it wasnt so grainy.

YOUR ROUNDS ARE TO BE ACCOUNTED FOR BEFORE AND AFTER YOUR SHIFT. IN MY EXPERIENCE WITH LESS THAN LETHAL ROUNDS FOR PEPPERBALL GUNS-THEY ARE NOT COUNTED, SINCE THEY ARE HELD IN A HOPPER LIKE A PAINTBALL GUN. GENERAL KNOWLEDGE OF HOW MANY ROUNDS ARE IN THE HOPPER IS REQUIRED BUT NOT COUNTED....MAYBE ANOTHER DEPT DOES IS DIFFERENTLY. ALL ROUNDS FOR THE HIGHER UOF NEED TO BE COUNTED IN CASE OF AN INCIDENT. BESIDES, WHAT IF SOMETHING HAPPENED..LIKE A N HOLLYWOOD AND YOU DIDNT "LOAD UP TO FULL POTENTIAL" ID KICK MYSELF.

BACK TO IT... A LEO DEPT PAYS SO MUCH AND CARES TO SEND EMPLOYEES IN TO A TRAINING PROGRAM SO THAT YOU ARE PREPARED TO HANDLE THE WORST INCIDENTS. GOD FORBID. TO ME, THIS WAS AN EMBARASSING MOMENT -MAYBE A TRAINING ISSUE. ONE THINGS FOR SURE HE NEEDS TO BE FISHED OUT. AND GROW SOME (EH-HEM) GUTS , HAVE A BACKBONE AND COME FORWARD.

ANOTHER THING... IT TAKES COURAGE TO COME ON AND SAY ANOTHER AGENCY REALLY DROPPED THE BALL THIS TIME IT NEEDS TO BE- I CONCUR SIR

Many people seem to confuse a "right" with a "privlege".
You might be suprised at the latitude given LEO's to declare unlawful assembly or unusual occurance.

Your attitude could easily be considered part of the problem.
Why not simply go for a short ride, that's what your there for, and then come back when things cool down?

Yes you paid to be there but the LEO's are paid to be there.