Not quite sure where this should be posted but this is MY IDEA.

Please tell me if it is stupid or someone else has posted something like this.

I have been wondering a few things and maybe you guys could help answer a few questions that I had on my mind about the RAMP Draft and this whole scam to take our dunes away.

Now I read and skimmed through most of the Draft Plan but I have been unable to attend the meetings by the ASA and BLM, so I haven’t had the chance to ask this yet, I feel that it is a real possibility and should be looked at.

1. How much water is retained in sand?
2. How long does it take water to pass though sand, (being absorbed) and how far from the surface will it go down?
3. does this water or moisture ever penetrate farther then 10 feet?
4. how much of this plant grows in the protected area,? And how much grows in mexico?

This is my hypothesis on the dunes issue. We all know the that there are el-neno years such as this one now, and every 4 years.

This is the time when the PMV plants thrive, and will be able to grow in huge numbers. This is how I came up with this answer.

From this site http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7I6BesiNlM8 , and even better video to prove there is wet sand under all dunes is here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7I6BesiNlM8 starting at MIN 4:08
It says that dunes, retain water just under the surface, this keeps the dunes standing tall and such, a damp layer underneath. Which provides the G-note sound from the movie.

From this site it says that PMV plants and other dune plants have a network of roots, the PMV spanning 3-6 feet. Well if this is true then in the wet years of the el-neno seasons there should be enough water for the plants to grow, and develop there root structure making them able to tap into the water that is retained in the dunes from that year. And therefore the when the next years rain fall seeps into the dunes the roots will caught the water and thrive.

Does this make sense? And can it be a possibility?

Just this weekend I was riding in the dunes and the all the sand was dry and a bone and soft as hell, yet because it was windy the wind and blown the dry light sand away, exposing the wet sand as I tore up the dunes, I looked back and saw wet sand. Its MAY and there is still wet sand? The last rain was in April 22 with .02.

How can this be.

If the sand can stay close enough to the surface to give the seeds time to grow there roots then it would seem like there would be an abounded amount of moisture for them.
I wrote this fast and I might be a little crazy, but ill come back and edit, and add to my theory when I have time to do so.
Thanks guys.,

in your post the word scam was used and thats all there is to know about the dune closing.its just a way to get rid of us dune scum and have more of the untouched land as possible. not really all that complicated. they will use any flower,roosterroach,turtle that they can to achieve this.

Dune Boy,

Thank you for a well thought out post. I’ve been involved in this for a while, so can answer some of your questions.

1. We don’t know how much PMV grows in Mexico. We have no way to properly survey that. This is one of the major flaws in the Endangered Species Act (ESA). It does not take into account the amount (quantity) of a species that has habitat and lives across our borders. It is a non-issue. Fish and Wildlife (FWS), nor the courts, care how much PMV lives south of our boarder.

2. The highest concentration of PMV that we do know about is in the currently open (to OHV riding) southern part of the dunes in the Gordens Well/Buttercup area. These areas have been designated as Critical Habitat (CH) by FWS and are the areas that are proposed to be closed to OHV use in the various DRAMP alternatives, except alternative 1.

3. Another flaw in the ESA is that there is no requirement that the FWS set a ‘minimum’ number or threshold level of plants or beasties that would delist a species. FWS and the BLM conducted a study in the dunes that found at that time over 8,000,000 PMV plants. Yeah, that’s (8) with a MILLION after it. Yet FWS still refused to delist the PMV. How many PMV do we need to say the thing is NOT endangered? Eight MILLION is not enough and FWS will not say how many IS. Smells like politics to me, rather then science. Go figure.

4. A little bit about PMV biology. Note: I am not claiming to be an expert, but I think if you check, you’ll find my comments come from published data on the PMV.

The vitality of the PMV does not come from how many plants are observed at any given time. By late summer, if you search, you will find very few PMV alive anywhere in the dunes. Those few that you do find, as you noted Dune Boy, will have root systems going deep enough to tap into a water supply far below the surface of the sand. Even then, very, VERY few plants live more then 3 years. A 5yr old PMV plant is a very old and indeed a very rare find. This is because rain patterns in the dunes vary greatly year to year and those deep water supplies are not consistently replenished.

The key to PMV is the quality of what is called the Seed Bank. Which means: How many PMV seeds are laying about in the sand, waiting for the right conditions to germinate. The right conditions are defined as WATER (duh). When it rains a LOT, at the right time, then a LOT of PMV seeds germinate, flower and produce more seeds that lay about in the sand waiting, again, for the right conditions. Studies by Dr. Art Phillips have shown that the PMV seed bank is very healthy with 10’s of millions of seeds. (or more. I no longer remember the exact number).

So, when it rains in the dunes between early October through December, and hopefully, again in the early spring, there will be a lot of PMV to replenish the seed bank for the next cycle. If it doesn’t rain much until late winter (after Jan) through spring, then there will not be a lot of PMV. That doesn’t mean the plant is endangered. It just means that the seeds are waiting until a favorable time to grow.

Hope that helps you gain some understanding of the PMV and our issues.