Monday is the 31st. (Memorial Day). Since the Fish & Wildlife Service is CLOSED on that day you would think that their decision to DELIST or NOT to delist the Peirson's Milk Vetch plant would be out in the Federal Register either today (Thursday) or by tomorrow so they DON'T miss another COURT ORDERED deadline and have to get sued again...

We (ASA) expect to see this in the Federal Register next week but YOU can keep a check here....

http://www.epa.gov/fedrgstr/EPA-IMPACT/2004/

Who will be the first person to POST the decision??? (a pw maybe?)

Who will be the HAPPIEST duner if they delist the PMV???

And Who is going to the PROTEST RALLY on Friday June 11th in Carlsbad,,, help bring attention so this b-u-l-l-s-h-i-t doesn't have to happen AGAIN to Mother G ???

I spoke last week to the Carlsbad Fish & Wildlife office about the possible outcome of the delisting petition.

I was told it can go one of three ways:

1. FWS will find that the delisting is unwarranted; or

2. FWS will find that it deserves to be delisted and will publish a proposed delisting process (which includes a public comment period); or

3. FWS will find that although it deserves to be delisted, due to more pressing conservation matters the FWS cannot commit resources to the delisting process right now.

I also asked about how soon the notice would be published (which makes it official) and was told that all federal register notices kind of line up and take their turns so it depends on how many other federal register notices are in line at the time. First-come, first-served so to speak. In other words, although the court order stipulated that the FWS must make the decision by May 31st, it does not stipulate when the notice of the decision must be published and because of the way the Department of Interior functions, who knows when it will be official.

Let's all keep our fingers crossed for a #2 decision and a short line for publishing the notice

Vicki

I am normally an optimistic " my glass is damn near full!" person...but I have a bad feeling about this. I am hoping for the best...but I am expecting the worst.

I sure hope I'm wrong...

My guess would be that a decision has been made and will be presented to the Court tomorrow. The Federal Register notice will likely be published next Tuesday.

THe suspense is killing me . never the less Ill be there june 11 to show support.

As of this morning, there has been no notice published in the Federal Register.

Typically, the rule for government "deadlines" is that if the deadline is a weekend or holiday, the end of the next business day is considered the official deadline.

My experience has been, and similar to Lowbuck's previous statement, that nothing is a "decision" until published in the Federal Register. Not having the documents that USFWS made this agreement in my hands, it's difficult to determine what precisely was agreed upon. But if the document said a "decision" would be reached on a certain date, they must publish to make it official.

This leads me to think that the decision has already been made and transmitted to the Federal Register for publication next Tuesday.

From sources that have been involved in this type of litigation in the past; usually, the counsel for the Plaintiff is informed before the decision is made public, but may be given this information in confidence until the publication date. If this is the case here, I suspect by the end of today, ASA et.al. will know the outcome. When they can and will make this public, is a question I cannot provide any insight on.

Good? Bad? Ugly?

As stated on ( the ASA site ) EPA postings are generaly made around 9:00 PST and usually posted the next day. ( my opinion )- at what time, nobody really knows . Desicion due May 31st - monday ( a holiday ) So I guess today tuesday was a false alarm and tomorrow will be the big day , that is unless they operate like the sanitation dept. meaning that the desicion/ posting would be the day after the day after the day it was supposed to be posted , which would be thursday !. That would be OK because that is the day before the day ( friday ) that I am going to the dunes for one last hooray. ( or is that horray ) ?.

Sorry for the rant , .

C-YA all the 11th.

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Nothing again today. This is straight off the table of contents page posted this morning:

So far I have only been told that the May 31st deadline was when Department of Interior had to submit the decision to the Federal Register for publication... not it is up to the Federal Register to decide when it will be printed.

That's right in line with what we were told before... basically there is a "line" of notices and when it gets printed all depends on how long the line is.

I'm on hold right now trying to find a kind soul to tell me what spot in line we have.

Vicki

Thanks for staying on top of this for us Vicki

It explains it perfectly...

So we are waiting for an amended biological opinion, or as you said, could be waiting for the decision; is there a deadline? Or can this process go on and on and on and...well, you know

There is no deadline that I know of, but if I get a chance I'll pull the court file and check the papers just in case I missed something or something has changed since my last look.

I personally think that if we're going to continue to be forced to operate under the 1987 RAMP, we should start forcing the issue and start getting some of those original action items taken care of.

Like for instance, extending Gecko Road.

Vicki

Vicki, correct me if I'm wrong, but if the species is "de-listed", then the Biological Opinion is a mute document.

As to the current (2001-today) closure issue via the CBD lawsuit, a "decision" need to be made by BLM via a "Record of Decision" on the RAMP to lift the restrictions the Court imposed via the settlement agreement.

If indeed the USFWS makes a decision to de-list the species, it will be very interesting to see what time it takes BLM to get the RAMP process going again. Because much of the "assumptions" of the RAMP for the ISDRA revolves to a large extent that the species is still "listed", BLM would have the option (and a wise one at that) to revise the RAMP as we know it. If BLM did not take a close look at the RAMP if this was to happen, they are open to challenge.

This could take quite a while.

This was discussed at length at the last ASA BOD meeting in Phoenix which I attended.

However I'm not great with terms and don't have my notes handy so I won't try to explain it all in the nitty gritty.

But basically with the PMV delisted the FWS is removed from the RAMP decision process because the PMV is the only species out there that currently has status that requires consultation with the FWS.

Remember that's what caused the closures in the first place - the PMV got listed and since the BLM hadn't consulted with the FWS over the status of the then current RAMP they left themselves open for a lawsuit on a technicality. I say technicality because IMHO it's BS that they could be sued for not taking into account someting that hadn't happened yet. (the previous RAMP was made in 87 before the PMV was listed - the new RAMP was under development and was to take the PMV into consideration but the CBD saw an opportunity and attacked since the then current 87 RAMP did not take the PMV into consideration.)

Of course what happens to the RAMP if the PMV is delisted is a BIG question. And the CBD will of course launch a lawsuit contesting the delisting if it happens as well as probably filing lawsuits to force the listing of other "threatened" species which are lacking data to prove whether or not they actually require protection.

What everyone needs to remember is that there is no end to this fight. Period. We can win all the court battles and public opinion battles we want and it won't change the fact that the enviros will keep attacking and we will have to stay on the offensive and defensive at the same time....for too long we were only being defensive and look where that got us all.

Winning these battles is VERY important. But we are at war here and it is a war that literally cannot be won but must be fought. Maybe someday if every single person who goes out to the dunes started actively fighting for them.....maybe there would be a chance of winning some day in the far far future.

But just because it's a war that will never end and can never be won does not mean that it's not worth fighting - because the other side already knows that it's a war they can't win and they're fully committed, 100% lifestyle level of commitment, to fighting it even though they have already accepted that they will never "win".

Something to start thinking about right this minute is compromise.

I'm sure there will be offers.

You'd better start letting your leaders know right now where you expect them to stand.

Vicki

Vicki, I did not by any measure mean to imply that the fight is hopeless.

Just that believing it is a war that can be won is pointlessly optimistic, unrealistic, and will do more long term harm to moral than being honest and upfront with people.

Just because something is unwinnable does not mean it's hopeless, it does not mean it's not worth fighting for, and it does not mean anyone should stop trying or start comprimising. If anything it means you should fight all the more because the other side is already doing that and will NEVER let up.

This is as much a "holy war" as what's been going on in the middle east for centuries. This kind of fight can never be won by one side or the other. But that dosn't mean either side is ever going to stop fighting.

There are LOTS of battles that we can win. And they will make a big difference and the swing of the pendulum can be moved further to one side or the other than it has ever gone before. Winning those battles makes it swing faster and farther. But nothing will ever make it stop swinging.

As long as any leader portrays this as something that can be won people will not get involved to the level they need to be. It makes it too easy for them to say "Oh, so and so is fighting this and says the end is near so I don't really need to be worried." Why do you think the enviros even turn their wins into distress messages - it keeps people involved to the point that they feel they have no choice but to be involved.

Getting the closures removed is a battle that can be won. It's still a long ways off but it is a winnable battle.

Making the dunes safe from ever facing closure again is the war - and it will never be won...but it can reach a point where we are "winning" more than we are losing...and that's when things can get REALLY dangerous. That's when all the barely involvedes who've been waiting for a win go back to being complacent and burry their heads back into the sand....and that's when the other side strikes with something like the PMV lawsuit.

The only way for us to get on top and stay on top is to be honest with people and stop giving them false hope that this will all someday go away.

Back to the topic of this thread...

The response to the petition will be published in tomorrow's Federal Register:

dammit, its killing me, someone has to have it.

I have tried to get through the red tape and get a copy, but haven't gotten anyone to budge. I'm not finished yet, but so far it's a no go.

It's very frustrating because the document is available for "public inspection" at the offices of the Federal Register, in Washington DC.

I doubt that DUNERS members would want us spending our limited resources to send a courier over there to get a copy, or have a lawyer spend the time hunting it down, especially since it will be available online tomorrow.

But I do hate waiting so I considered spending my own money to get it done... so far my common sense has held firm We've waited this long, what's another 24 hours?

Patience is not one of my virtues

I hate waiting

Vicki

We've waited 4 years, we can wait one more day.

Jason was correct in some of his assessments; the GAGs are "terminators." They will never stop, even if you remove their heads.

We can't either. We need to remain ever vigilant.

The "war" will be won only when the $#&#*($$*&+*#@& ESA is truly reformed.

The PMV will not be delisted. Just got word from our sources in D.C.

Grant, did your sources say if they went for door #1 or door #3?

Door number 1 was a complete denial of the petition.

Door number 3 was delisting but only on paper... leaving the status quo as is.

Vicki

No delisting. Period.

Well, that wasn't the news anyone ( except cbd) wanted. And of course we can all start looking at why. We should have that answer Friday when the document is available online for us all to read.

I have to revert back to many public meetings DUNERs has had. It was mentioned many times by Vicki that, let me try to find the words so I dont crusify Vicki....

We may have a hard time delisting the PMV, not because of the numbers, but because of the location in which it grows. The numbers should certainly support delisting, however because it only grows in one location it may never be delisted.

This is not a quote from Vicki, but as I recall, her answers to questions at the meetings regarding delisting. So now we move on to the next step in the fight.
This decision would certainly concern me in future efforts when the Scarab beetle makes the next list.

Great paraphrasing Tom!

I was hoping to be proven wrong.

Vicki

Sad, sad news for the "good guys" and anyone with a kindergarten level understanding of science, but hopefully there will be another day. I'd bet however, that as much as this is a "worse case" scenario, those who are putting in many unpaid hours behind the scenes planned for this eventuality, and will have a few tricks up their sleeves. For given their environmentally absurd track record and the fact that they are a federal agency, it wouldn't have been much of a stretch to expect FWS would take the "easy" way out and just say "no". I know we all hoped for better news, but FWS has shown itself to be just a bunch of danny-boy's with a federal paycheck.

Trust me, the last time I was at an ASA board meeting, the legal team had developed scenarios for all eventuallities. We're moving forward.
Doesn't mean we can't be absolutely OUTRAGED! ! ! ! !

Bob you're exactly right.

We already have the ground work set for the next steps. The partners in this process from the start have been ASA, SDORC and ORBA. We have split funding and leg work as well as the decisions. ASA could'nt have got this far without the support and unity of these guys. We have provided the best science available,the best legal arguments, and political pressure.

We are'nt done yet !!

Having not read the response yet, it is impossible to know for certain what they are basing the refusal on.

If our suspicions have been right all along, and they have kept it on the list not because of the number of plants but rather the location of the plants (claiming it only lives in the Imperial Sand Dunes), unless we have proof that it grows elsewhere that will be difficult to refute.

Let's hope they came up with some other reason that we can fight.

Right now our best defense is to remain vigilant. These issues are all chess pieces... we need to keep an eye on this pawn to see where this move will lead.

Vicki

And no, I haven't completely lost my rose-colored glasses. That last post sounds so depressing!

But I have to say, the bigger picture is very unsettling.

Keeping the PMV on the threatened list is not just a win for the good guys, it has a domino effect that we will have to work closely with to make sure the whole dune system is not effected.

When I say the PMV is just one chess piece, that's the best analogy I can find. Another piece is the Andrew's Dune Scarab Beetle, which was petitioned for listing but there has been no response to the petition. What should have been the next step? A lawsuit to force FWS to respond. Where is that lawsuit? The bad guys don't miss those obvious steps. That tells me the beetle is another chess piece.

There are all kinds of ways to move those pieces. We need to be certain that we have knowledge of those movements and control over our pieces.

Vicki

So basicly there is now no reason to expect the Temporairy Closures to EVER be lifted and therefore no reason whatsoever to respect them?

PastorVor

[diatribe]You know, we are constantly told to "respect the law", the law is there for us, the public. And then the law completely ignores the public and does whatever it wishes. "Respect us, even though we could care less about you." I, for one, have grown tired of being ignored, disrespected, abused, and taken for granted. I'm tired of doing "what I am told" because "they" know what is better for ME.
Here is your "law" people, telling you that they don't care one bit about you or your lifestyle. Your sport is being systematicly being wiped off of the face of the earth one compromise at a time. But, respect the law, by god, or else you will suffer the consequences. And you wonder why people ignore cops and why people go to far away places to get "away from the law". Places like Glamis which used to be a place where people could go to be themselves without being told by "the law" how to act.
This is a slap in our face. This is "the law" telling us that what we want matters not one bit. This is "the law" telling YOU that YOU don't COUNT!
We've done what we were told. We've stayed out of the closures, we've educated our people better then "the law" ever could. We've built entire orginizations of people and taught them about the plants and the animals. We've studied the effects of our sport on those plants. We've silenced our vehicles. We've made them more "nature friendly", all in vein. It doesn't matter WHAT we do, "the law" knows what is best for us.
Excuse me while I climb into my bubble and rot.[/diatribe]

PastorVor

Department of the Interior
U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service
Carlsbad Fish and Wildlife Office
Hidden Valley Road
Carlsbad, California 92009
Phone: 760/431-9440
Fax: 760/431-9624

http://carlsbad.fws.gov
(SC) 04-057

Contact: Jane Hendron, Carlsbad Fish and Wildlife Office ?
760/431-9440 ext. 205

For Release: June 3, 2004

U.S. FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE DETERMINES
PEIRSON'S MILK-VETCH SHOULD REMAIN PROTECTED

Carlsbad, Calif. - The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service announced today it has completed a status review of Peirson's milk-vetch. The Service has concluded the plant should remain listed under the Endangered Species Act.

The status review was undertaken after the Service determined that a petition to remove Peirson's milk-vetch (Astragalus magdalenae var. peirsonii) from Endangered Species Act protection provided substantial information.

After reviewing all of the available information about Peirson's milk-vetch, the Service concluded that it remains threatened by habitat destruction and modification from off-highway vehicle use; ongoing predation by bruchid beetles; the inadequacy of existing regulatory protections; and susceptibility to rangewide population declines from natural and manmade factors, including vandalism and drought.

During the status review the Service opened a 60-day comment period to accept public information and data about the plant and its habitat. A group of experts was also contacted to provide peer review of the information in the petition.

"Based on a thorough review of all information and data, and peer review comments, the Service concluded that Peirson's milk-vetch should remain listed as threatened under the Act," said Steve Thompson, Manager of the Service's California-Nevada Operations Office.

The petition to remove Peirson's milk-vetch from the Federal list of threatened and endangered species was submitted to the Service in October 2001 by representatives of the law firm Procopio, Cory, Hargreaves & Savitch, on behalf of the American Sand Association, San Diego Off-Road Coalition, and the Off-Road Business Association.

Petitioners cited several reasons why the plant should be removed from protection under the Act, including assertions that:

· data used to list the species were in error,
· new information indicates healthy populations of the plant are found throughout the Algodones Dunes, and
· the listing did not take into account conservation measures associated with the passage of the California Desert Protection Act.

Peirson's milk-vetch, a member of the pea family, grows from 8 to 27 inches tall and has pale purple flowers. In the United States, the plant is found only in portions of the Algodones Dunes, a southern California sand dune formation that is about 40 miles long, running from the northwest to the southeast, and approximately 5 to 8 miles wide. Within the dunes, the plant is found in scattered occurrences based on the slope of the dunes, patterns of annual rainfall, and other habitat factors.

The Service listed Peirson's milk-vetch as a Federally threatened species in 1998 due to habitat degradation, impacts associated with off-road vehicles, and inadequate regulations to conserve the plant.

Peirson's milk-vetch germination is closely linked to annual rainfall patterns within the Algodones Dunes. The plant generally produces flowers and sets seed between late fall and May. This is also the time of year when the dunes are most heavily visited by off-road vehicle users. Data indicate that the ongoing, annual co-occurrence of heavy off-road vehicle use during Peirson's milk-vetch germination/seed production season is affecting the long-term viability of the plant.

The Service will continue working with the Bureau of Land Management on issues relating to conservation of Peirson's milk-vetch within the Imperial Sand Dunes Recreation Area. Currently, the Service is reviewing its biological opinion on the BLM's Recreation Area Management Plan and the effect the plan has on Peirson's milk-vetch.

The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service is the principal Federal agency responsible for conserving, protecting and enhancing fish, wildlife and plants and their habitats for the continuing benefit of the American people. The Service manages the 95-million-acre National Wildlife Refuge System, which encompasses 544 national wildlife refuges, thousands of small wetlands and other special management areas. It also operates 69 national fish hatcheries, 63 Fish and Wildlife Management offices and 81 ecological services field stations. The agency enforces Federal wildlife laws, administers the Endangered Species Act, manages migratory bird populations, restores nationally significant fisheries, conserves and restores wildlife habitat such as wetlands, and helps foreign governments with their conservation efforts. It also oversees the Federal Assistance program, which distributes hundreds of millions of dollars in excise taxes on fishing and hunting equipment to State fish and wildlife agencies.

- FWS ?

For more information about the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, visit our home page at www.fws.gov

Although I was told the fact that it allegedly only grows at the Imperial Dunes is a factor, it appears the decision to keep the PMV on the threatened list was due to more disappointing factors:

That sounds like something pulled out of their arse, since we know most of those to be untrue.... Vandalism?

Let's face it, the closure's are a good way for the LEO's to keep dune populations in an area which is easier to control. It is much too difficult to patrol the entire closure area, not to mention the "divide and conquer" strategy of keeping the South Duners seperate from the Glamis Duners.

I say we demand mitigation for ANY closure, and that means opening up parts of the North dunes.
Opening parts of the North dunes would solve many problems, especially the crowded camping conditions.

That should be our next fight.

PastorVor

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Oooo, I'm so afraid, The Government will close the dunes because we are demanding to be treated fairly...

With all due respect, the closures are placed stratigcally around PMV populations. Not around populations of inept BLM administrators.

This finding WILL be used to legitamize the "COMPROMISE" of an Adaptive Management Area. Which is STILL closure.

We have been told time and time again that if we play by the rules then justice will prevail. Wake me up in a thousand years when justice wins.

PastorVor