I am neither an active member in either organization, but I do support the all the hard work any organization is doing in the fight to keep the dunes open. It is my experience and opinion, gathered from the many message boards and other means that there is a deep hatred of the ASA coming from the members of DUNERS. Here are a few examples of why I feel this way.

1) A few months ago, I attended a "Taco Tuesday" that Sailaway had organized on this board. Unsuspecting to me, it was actually an informal DUNERS meeting with minutes being taken. Arriving a little late, I took a seat at the table and began to overhear many of the conversations. To my dismay, all I heard was a bunch of ASA and Grant George bashing. The meeting ended with everyone going around the table introducing themselves. When it was my turn, I heard one members saying "Uh oh, he's the big Funco supporter."

2) I had asked at the above DUNERS meeting why sponsorship of the Glamis Cleanup had been limited to a very few. The answer I received was "we wanted to prove that the cleanup could be done without a lot of money." I asked myself, prove what to who, the ASA I assumed. I can't help to think what a big mistake that was just because of a couple of egos. Here's a chance to raise some big dollars in the fight to keep the dunes open, and the egos of a few kept this from happening.

3) In reading the board the last few weeks, it is my opinion that there seems to be a lack of support for the planned protest rally from DUNERS members. Again, is this because it's an ASA planned event.

The ASA motto is "Unite, Inform and Mobilize." With the infighting of these two organizations, how do expect the duning community to Unite. We are all in the fight to keep the dunes open, lets not let a little personality conflict get in the way.

This is my opinion and my opinion only.

Good questions Duane.

Uh oh.....
Here it comes.

Duane, I'm glad you brought this up and hopefully it will be education to many. I'd like to take the first whack at it and I'll try to address your thoughts one at a time. I'll even break them down into different posts because that seems to be easier for people to assimilate.

I can't speak for the ASA, but most of the access organizations are 501C(3). We're (still) trying for full-exempt status so that all donations can be fully deducted. Our paperwork was bounced back once but I'm told that happens often and not to worry. But we'll see. It's no big deal if we end up like the rest, but it would be nice to be fully deductible.

That said...

The decision to keep the profits down on the cleanup had absolutely nothing to do with our filing status. It was never a concern from either the donors or DUNERS. Our only goal was to have the cleanup pay for itself and it did.

Vicki

While I am a member of both organizations, and have donated many of hours for both, they do serve a different purpose in my eyes.

ASA primary goal is to fight the fight with lawyers and cash. So much of what the ASA does is fundraising for this. Unite, they have done.............Mobilize, they have done...............Inform, sometimes, but somethings they can't inform because of the Laywers and lawsuit things.

DUNERS is about a different focus. Duners is taking what the ASA has accomplished and taken a different road from here out. There are many things the ASA couldn't do due to volunteer time and resources. For instance, child certifications (Jr Duners program)and the Clean up (sole purpose to clean). There are many other things, I just can't think of them all right now. Duners is also less politically correct.

The rift isn't about ASA and DUNERS, it is about some people who don't care for the other. Many people don't like Vicki, and it is certainly obvious on both boards, fewer here, but they are here and have to chime in when they see blood. To fully understand why people feel the way they do is for each their own. Vicki is an easy target, she is vocal, in the spotlight, and a bright glowing redhead. As for Grant bashing, never heard that before. I have heard Duners and ASA members questioning each other and their motives, but that certainly isn't bashing. We need to question our leaders.

While these can be good questions I kinda doubt it will put an end to the problems.

It seems no matter what Vicki says she is attacked and I just don't understand why

In the "last episode" she merely mentioned that that day would not be a good day for that event. Then the personal attacks started coming out starting with Choppedwhatshisname.

I don't get it. Support some organization or loose it all.

Look at this picture and remember what it's all about:

Vicki,

Thank you for your attempt to answer my perceptions. However, are you denying this rift between the two organizations and this so called perception is bad for the duning community?

Also, I hope that your comment about not "looking for the big dollars" has changed. The enviromentalists are a very well funded group, and it' is gonna take "big dollars" in our fight to keep them open. If not, it's time to wake up and smell the coffee.

Hi, Choppedwhatshisname here...

Just wanted to say HI and that I'm mostly lurking and don't post much here, oh and one more thing... Your OPINION is that I was bashing. NO. IN MY OPINION I meerly observed something I did not agreee with and called it out on the carpet. Seems to me some people are a bit thin skinned?

See you in the dunes!

Without pulling quotes from some of the many posts here, I will just drop a few of my OPINIONS.

As said, DUNERs is less "politicly correct" than many groups. But thats not always a bad thing. DUNERs shouts watch your leaders. Of course that includes the DUNERs leadership. Based on the fact that many DUNERs members are also ASA members they(ASA leadershup) are called into question. Often that is taken as "bashing", "underminning" or many other negitive terms.

Simply saying DUNERs doesnt support something because they haven't discussed it is a defensive mechinism. Neither ASA nor DUNERs BOD have been discussing it.

When these defense mechinisms are brought out, people think it's time to jump on the bandwagon and go for a sip of blood. As with an early post on this topic. If people would just let the questions be answered, no fighting or bandwagoning occurs. Also people shouldn't be so fast to ASSUME that questioning is the same as "bashing."

The ASA is not the only "pro" offroad group questioned by DUNERs. Many have been questioned as I am sure DUNERs has been. There is nothing wrong with asking questions of your leadership.

Will the "rift" ever go away? I think it can. But first and foremost in my opinion, people need to get ride of their distaste for the people envolved. Not the orgs,but the people.

In the past there has been talk of the many orgs getting together and working out the issues, so to speak. I believe there were 5 groups envolved, out of the 5, 4 of them could agree on when, where and how to meet. One group could not agree.
The meeting never happened.
Until that changes, well, thats all I have to say on that. Except, do ALL groups really want to end it?

Yes the groups have different paths, but good has been done by ALL groups in the fight. From scientific data, to still having our vendors, to simply having the "annual" checkpiont removed, work has been done by all.

C'mon Mike, it's "Liver", not "whatshisname."

Jason, just let me answer your question regarding this...

Barking dogs.

Tom, you're right, a lot of good has been done by a lot of good organizations. And that good work will continue, rift or no rift.

Vicki

Tom and Vicki.

It's not a matter of discussing the protest. It's a matter of spreading the word.

I have seen quite a few official things from the ASA announcing it (and even from GD.com). Between posts on the BBS, news postings on the website (which gets syndicated to a number of other sites), an article in the newsletter, a mass mailing....there's been quite a bit of spreading the word done by the ASA. I've also seen that echoed by several other groups.

I haven't seen even a single post on the DUNERS board saying as much as "Hey, there's this event going on you may want to know about"

I had been given reason to suspect that such a post would be made as I had been told that the president of DUNERS said that while she and other DUNERS leaders couldn't be there she was sure many of the rank and file membership would. But without their leadership even telling them about it that's quite a leap of faith.

I have seen the ASA make a public announcement about the cleanup DUNERS organized this past year. Other than that I haven't seen anything else that DUNERS did that they may have wanted help publicizing that they didn't get.

Now that the date is being moved hopefully it won't conflict with any previous engagements the DUNERS leadership has and they will be able to attend as well.

Sorry, my mistake. It's not in the "members only" section... it's in an area reserved specifically for private discussions.

But, again, there is a great big "main" area for anyone to post anything they want, where there are no private or membership-only restrictions.

Vicki

Details - details - details.. sheesh..

More closures on the way..

allright table dancing

I think it was CORVA that has tax-deductible status and for a while, don't know if they still do it, they were accepting donations on behalf of the ASA and passing the money along to them.

Wow! A lot of up-front talk here. Very good questions and some good answers.

Perhaps we should all remember that it takes a lot of effort to stem, stop, and turn a negative tide away from the ominous future that awaits us. Though both organizations are for the same cause, they are using different avenues to achieve the same focus.

Should we combine our efforts, and dollars; and thus be more successful at slowing down or stopping more foreclosures? You Betcha! The problem with that, is that each group has it's focus...look at all the groups...Friends of Oceana for Oceano/Pismo; Friends of Sand Mountain for their area; ASA for Glamis; Duners for the entire Imperial Sand Dunes; Glamis Dunes.Com divided among all. There has been several efforts to combine all of us in the past, yet we didn't want to give up our dollars to CORVA, nor another group whose focus was more on the national than Southern California area. Ya gotta admit, that most duners don't give a hoot about a four wheel trail in Wisconsin, etc. And I agree..

So what do we do? Get over our differences and go forth to fight the good fight!!


Yet, to be honest, DUNERS got it's start by a group of people who had been discouraged by the ASA leadership. The exact reasons are no longer important; but suffice to say, anytime an organziation stops listening to it's strongest supporters, and stops answering questions from it's members, there's bound to be a rift. And the leadership should have the maturity, and the brains to ask itself "What's going on here?"

Vicki Warren is a godsend for all of us who dune. Regardless of which color shirt/flag you decide to fly. If more of us dedicated at least 5% of the time she does; we would have probably won ALL OF ATHE DUNES back!! She is vocal, educated, smart, knows how to network, to rally people up for a cause, and knows when she is being Bxxlshxxtted; and ain't afraid to call when you're bluffing. Pay attention to what this lady says, for her heart is in the dunes. She is not someone who is dependent on duning folk for her money, and she didn't start DUNERS to save money on a new toy. Just stop by her camp sometime, and you'll meet a gregarious woman, who will take you in, share stories, give you a bite, and genuinely make you feel welcome. Aske her a question about the dunes, and then the passion will show. Thats' where Vicki, and most of DUNERS, is different than some others.......their heart is in the fight, not the wallet.

Many of us should stop concentrating on why the two organizations seem to not get along, and instead volunteer time, and a few $$$ for the efforts to keep the dunes open. All Duning folk need to get educated and become an active participant, or those shiny mega-buck toys will become dust-gathers in the garage; reminding you of a bygone era like a Jimmy Bufet song.

I'm not slamming anyone, or either organization. I know that both in their rights, are working towards what they believe in. Just my vote is on Vicki, and if we aren't careful, she just might run for Governor one day! Whoo-yaah!

And for all of you, remeber that most of your are able to enjoy the dunes...right now. That is something to be thankful for.....think of what it means when duty calls, or an injury, or family keeps you from enjoyin the dunes...how do you feel?

Now take that feeling, and amplify 42/7/365. Do you want to feel that?

Didn't think so. So fight?



Just a frustrated duner from Jacksonville, Florida

Just to keep the record straight, CORVA donations are NOT tax deductible.

CORVA helped the “Friends” organizations (area specific groups) form, get off the ground, and “official” in the eyes of the taxing authorities.

CORVA is a statewide, motorized access group that is made up of individuals, clubs, and smaller “site specific” organizations. We involve ourselves on local, “site specific”, regional, and statewide issues.

Our focus IS NOT country-wide in nature. We keep ourselves informed of these issues and lend support as deemed necessary to further the overall health of the motorized, recreational experience.

CORVA was formed over 35 years ago, primarily do to potential dune closures across the state at that time.

Motorcycles had AMA. 4 Wheel Drive folks had the California Association of Four Wheel Drive Clubs, ATV’s were not even born, and sand vehicles essentially had little of any representation. The idea was to have a statewide organization that was different.

Since its inception, CORVA has broadened it focus and attempts to represent ALL motorized vehicle access issues and recreationist across the state. CORVA is "dedicated to protect our public lands for the people, not from the people".

Just a short history lesson and perspective from an “old timer” at this game.

Since the info was posted on the ASA BBS back before the switch to the new software the posts don't show up in normal searches...so I had to really dig for this.

But here's the info on who was willing to accept tax deductible donations that they would pass along to the ASA if requested:

http://www.americansandassociation.org/php...opic.php?t=2320

Apparently CORVA had offered but as APD pointed out they aren't actually able to accept tax-deductible donations. However at least back in 2001 SDORC was able to accept tax-deductible donations and was willing to pass the funds along to the ASA if so requested.

You want an answer? Jim gave it to you.

For those who are interested here's a nice write up I found that describes the differences between 501©3 and 501©4 a lot nicer than the IRS pages I found

http://money.howstuffworks.com/philanthropy3.htm

Basically both mean that the organization is tax-exempt in their operations. However a ©4 can actively lobby legislative bodies to attempt to affect change while a ©3 organization can loose their tax-exempt status for taking part in such activities:
http://www.irs.gov/charities/welfare/artic...d=96178,00.html

Charitable donations to a ©4 are NOT deductible unless they are classified as a business expense. So if you have a business and buy an ASA sponsorship that gets you advertising on the website you can deduct it from the business taxes. But if you just cut a check for support then you can't take any deduction.

Given DUNERS activities in Sacramento and Washington I would be very surprised to se them get and keep ©3 status for the same reasons that the ASA chose to go with ©4. Lobbying on behalf of our sport is VERY important at this point in time and both groups are actively involved in it as a primary activity.

Frankie, you're right... it is personal to some and they just can't let it go.

Barking dogs.

And Duck... I'm flattered and embarassed, all at the same time. Thank you.

Vicki