I agree with you, but why is there bashing??? Well, like many people that have a history, there are disagreements. In this history, there are divorces, new cliques, and new/different ideas. Without new members and volunteers, the same old differences and bickering comes back to the surface.

My solution, not sure. But I do believe not joining any org. is part of the probelm with our sport/lifestyle. If you are not a member of any, how do you expect it's leaders to fight for your beliefs??

I have also felt, you can't complain about the government unless you vote.

So my solution, get involved anyway you can.

I feel another organization would just bring more division to a scene that's moving in enough different directions as it is. And I don't have the time or political wherewithal (sp?), let alone the desire, to become a big player in an existing group.

If the ASA were to be my pet project tomorrow, and Grant were to do things my way? We'd be in a lot of trouble...my ideas are too radical for anyone excepting myself to stomach most times.

I love honesty, thanks...........

I certainly don't disagree with this statement. But maybe these Orgs need new leaders, new blood, new ideas?? Change is almost always good for the long run. But without new members stepping up, change sometimes doesn't happen.

My point of this thread isn't really to call anyone out, it was to cast light on why people aren't members. All orgs have a problem with membership (not enough). When the Blm says there are 180,000 people in the dunes over Thanksgiving, and the ASA only has 20,000 members (just a guess), how are they representing the majority of the duners on the issues??? The majority is not 11% of the population.

I do think the Board is a great tool to educate and communicate, thank you guys.

You asked, I answered. To continue being honest, my activism is still just developing. I didn't start riding until 2000, so I don't even know a desert without closures. I didn't join this board until a few months ago, so up to this point the only contact I've had with duners are the people in my camp. I'm also one of the young rowdies that the sand organizations love to hate, too often we're the poster children for the anti-access groups. At 21, my ideas and views often don't fall into line with your stereotypical member of a volunteer group. I'm also vehemently anti-LEO and I feel strangled at times by over-enforcement in the dunes.

That said, I am beginning to 'test the waters' of the ASA and DUNERs. I've spent several hours doing (unfortunately fruitless) research for DUNERs Vicki, and I've made a few phone calls for ASA Brian. The rally is going to be my first time at any kind of activist gathering, maybe I'll feel motivated to take it from there. I'd be interested in attending a meeting or two of the groups, but the only chances I've seen on here (I'm rarely on any other dune BBS) to meet with DUNERs are pretty far out of my area, and I haven't seen anything on local ASA meetings (east SD county). It's probably more because I'm not looking hard enough than the info's not out there, I'm sure it is and I'm sure I'll get motivated to find it sooner than later...

Dave

When I joined ASA there was never a ? of trust. Why do you feel this way? Has the ASA done something to establish this lack of trust. If you join the ASA is it goin to be a life altering experience? It will if you dont, the dunes could close completely

It's not the org... it's ANY org... and I'm not simply speaking for myself, but what I see and hear from many people. An attempt at explaining why many people do not join up.

They could close if I do... They could also be altered in a way which is not what I desire...

PastorVor

I think I understand what you're saying and I'm glad that you don't let your distrust of the "established" orgs keep you from doing what you do.

But it's been my experience that while influencing the online community may not require a strong "established" feel, working with politicians, other OHV leaders and influential agencies seems to be a little easier with an "established" front presented to them.

After I left the ASA and before I joined DUNERS I was still very much involved with this fight and I was still able to accomplish quite a bit… but I must say it has been somewhat easier since we started DUNERS… it seems in the eyes of those who influence our laws a more "corporate" feel helps them to focus.

I also think there's strength in numbers. Not that an individual can't accomplish a lot… believe me, I know they can. But when like-minded individuals get together a lot more can get done. Just my opinion.

There are also people who really really really want to help fight for access to the dunes and public lands in general but they just don't have the time or perhaps they don't feel they have the skills to do it on their own. So they find an organization that can do it for them. Does it take trust? To a degree, yes. But the days of taking a nap while the leaders fly the plane should be over. We need to co-pilot every flight so we make sure we're headed in the right direction. By now we are certain that they can't be expected to know where to land if we don't tell them and give them directions along the way.

Vicki

They could, but they could be closed right now if it wasnt for the orgs. I understand what you are saying about what you desire. But its not a perfect world. We all want different things, in this case you cant have it 100% your way and I'm sure you know that. I dont want fees and I dont need public bathrooms but I will gladly pay the fee for the services if it means keeping the dunes open. In some cases we must pick the lesser of the 2 evils. Do we let the greens have their way or do we join together as an org and fight the true evil.

come on Brian joining the ASA is free and I swear no one will make fun of you if you do

You are right, and I DO know that... but that doesn't mean that I can't try.

I'm glad that you are perfectly willing to do this... but I am not. I see a larger picture. One that I've yet to see an org accept.
To you, paying a fee to keep the dunes open is the lesser of two evils. That is not what I see at all. For one, I do not believe a fee is required to keep the dunes open at all! For another, the "fee system" that is being pushed in the house of representatives will affect far more then the dunes. It will affect virtually every person in the country and will hit Western states particularly hard, not to mention the revoking of the so called "Golden Passports" which were purchassed as a "lifetime" thing. A direct attack on our older, retired population.
It is far more complicated then simply, "pay to keep the dunes open."

But, this shouldn't be about why "I" am not a member. I "know" why I am not a member. The issue should be about why people who don't know why, are not members.

PastorVor

Thats a pretty bold statement. Could close? If I sell my buggy the dunes COULD close. If it rains in Montana they COULD close. Are you saying unless someone joins ASA the dunes WILL close?

Just for the record, to my knowledge, NO dune org has kept the dunes open. NO off-road org has had closed land reopend. I could be wrong about the second statement, If I am, could somneone please tell me where.

Nothing regarding the closures has changed (yet) because of any of the work done by any off-road group.

Coments like "it could close completly" are pretty far fetched and I must say pretty arogant. Comment like that are ussaly reserved for chicken little type groups, you know, global warming, green house, anaimal rights... The fact is, after all the work done by all the orgs, they COULD still close. I am very glad I never heard that from ANY org's BOD.


Back on topic Tom.

I think it is up to the groups to decide what they choose to call a "real" member. For me, I think grant (or whoever wrote it)hit it real close to "on the head". Someone who made a conscience effort to be included.

But what is effort and how long does effort last? In the case of DUNERs, effort means paying a fee and filliing out a paper. YOur "effort" last one year, then you must do it again. This shows continued "effort" to belong. With free memberships, "effort" is done one time and never required again. Thats fine. But when was the "efffort" given? was it a few years agao at one of the early meetings at the OC fairgrounds? Do those people even go to Glamis anymore? heck, are they alive?(hope so)
As for the young child analogy, sure they are represented by the orgs. But to be a member of an org, should you need to know what that org does, whythey represent you and how? Does a child really have a grasp on that? I tend to think not.
I think this is why the Government has the cencus every 10 years or whatever. People move, die, change occupations, hobbies...whatever.

Sure "effort" is one contributing factor. But is there continued "effort" to show the desire to continue with their membership?

That is up to the orgs to decide and up to the orgs to put a value on whatever numbers they choose to use.
Someone could have 180,000 members, you could mail out a 180,000 news letters, if only 50 of them are read...what good is 180,000.

Were back to continued "effort" again...

Not at all, just playing with vor. Maybe I got carried away and blew thing out of perportion just a bit.

I have it, just holding it for the next woozy Wednesday

Our "stuff" is a membership card that gets printed along with something like nine other new members, all at one time.

Actually, I there may be a stack of new member cards that haven't been mailed... or maybe they have been after the last talk about them... I'll check.

We want to have new stickers printed but we need to talk about the logo first... some people have suggested some changes.

That's one of those "summertime" projects

Vicki

I havn't seen anything??? but I can't make many of the meeting either???

Well, not at Glamis, but throughout the off-road community as a whole, that's pretty accurate.

At the Imperial Dunes though, other than the lawsuit closures that woke us all up, there have been no "new" closures. Maybe because we are paying attention now?

Vicki

The area east of the tracks was part of that same lawsuit... the closure just went in later.

And requiring the fees throughout the dune system is not the same as a closure. A nasty thing to do, yes. But not a closure.

The only other thing that has come in that resembles a closure is the competition hill "curfew." That, to me, is a closure no matter how you say it. By the way, it was a temporary situation that should be lifted this year, if memory serves me correctly. Maybe we need to start making sure that happens.

Vicki

And, yes... Comp has been closed, Olds has been closed, The drags have been closed and I've seen no idication that these punitive closures will reduce in the future. As a matter of fact I would come more to believe that there will be more closures of these types as people find different places to gather "authority" will continue to "close" them as they see fit.

PastorVor

So not trusting "the system" we have to play in is an excuse not to fight within it?? I feel opposite I guess, I think this is the system that we have to play in right now, and if we want change we must fight within the system. I don't like the system, and think that it isn't a fair system, but using the tools within the system seems more pratical.

Brian, I understand your point, don't get me wrong, I just don't understand why anyone can't be a member. It is free to be in the ASA, they are fighting to keep the dunes open , and they are another way to stay united on this battle.

The GD.com board family is very important in communication also, and I would think at some point not everyone agrees with what it stands for, but that isn't a reason not to be part of it, like every family, disagreements happen, viewpoints differ, but you must be united to win this fight.

I always thought that a lot people don't join because they don't have the time or energy to volunteer. Only a small fraction actually volunteer. I think if you all you want to do is learn, great. Why? Because every camp in the dunes should have a representative that knows what is going on. If you can't do anything else, be the educated one in your group. My group consists of over 100 people throughout the year, the rumors people bring from their workplace to our camp is amazing, so I try to stay on top of most subjects so others will be informed. If I can educate those 100 people throughout a season, I feel it is a start.

As for the comp/olds closure, the mess that is left from the night before is amazing, it can fill a whole back of a pick up from one night. I have done the Obsessed mini clean ups on a few occasions, and the only guarentee I can make after it is done, that it will look like a dump the next day. One more prediction, I will get roosted by someone while bending over picking up glass.

Does anybody want to step up and correct this? Or should we just let him believe this? Where does this mis-information come from?

it's kind of a combination of fact and myth but I understand your frustration Tom.

Most people don't know the full story of the checkered flag program... I was going to write a Sand Addiction article about it but just plain ran out of time

Back before the closures were in place and in fact even back before the American Sand Association was formed, Glamis had an especially rowdy season. There were several incidents involving visitors versus rangers that made a ripple all the way to Washington. In place at the time was a fledgling program called the "checkered flag program" which had been started by a man named Jerry Schaefer and a group of Glamis devotees.

Hang on... I need more coffee...

Tom,
Several years back after the Thanksgiving "riot" where some of the BLM were "attacked" the BLM sent their head honchos out from D.C. and were going to completely shut down all the dunes. At that time we were within 24 hours of losing it all! This was before there was even an org called the ASA. Jerry Seaver and I believe Vince Brunasso met with them and convinced them to not shut it down. One of the reasons for not shutting down was Jerry pointed out all the checked flags (a program started independently by Jerry Shaffer). This was about the time that Vince had started glamisonline to inform the public of Glamis news.
You can check with Jerry Seaver on this, but I believe I'm very close to the truth here. The ASA was formed after this incident.
Do you know of something different?