The greens are now using the excuse of not having a safe place to hike in the dunes. We all know that the northern wilderness closure has been available for hikers for decades. We need to promote hiking in the northern closure to remove this amo from the greens. We need billboards in the surrounding towns of Glamis, postings in all the hiking brds, and fliers in all the stores where hiking gear is purchased. We need to get the word out that hikers are welcome to hike the wilderness area.
If you know of any other avenues of promoting this please post
Full Version: Promote Hiking In The Northern Wilderness Closure
effem 
I say no and the reason I say no is because even if they were all to flock to the ISDRA to hike the wilderness area they would not stop pursuing our side of the dunes.
Absolutly. ISDRA should be promoted as a world class Sand enthusist recreation facilty. With many different options for whatever your sand interest. Then, it would be much easier to show that we are the only ones using it.
I voted yes. But not as a way to keep them interested in something else or to keep them for targeting us. I agree with Ta2dGrrl... they'll never stop coming after us no matter where they hike.
Right now it's a waste and a slap in the face. It's closed to motorized access and yet there's no way to safely get over there to access it UN-motorized.
And I've seen the draw of Osborn to the tourists. The carloads are non-stop and people are awed by what they see. I think it would be awesome for these same people (and more than a few of us) to be able to actually visit the wilderness area.
I think a visitor center is a dandy idea.
And anyone who has attended a DUNERS meeting, especially around the time of the business plan discussions, may remember talk about promoting a visitors center but also a discussion about the long-term goal for the wilderness area
Vicki
Right now it's a waste and a slap in the face. It's closed to motorized access and yet there's no way to safely get over there to access it UN-motorized.
And I've seen the draw of Osborn to the tourists. The carloads are non-stop and people are awed by what they see. I think it would be awesome for these same people (and more than a few of us) to be able to actually visit the wilderness area.
I think a visitor center is a dandy idea.
And anyone who has attended a DUNERS meeting, especially around the time of the business plan discussions, may remember talk about promoting a visitors center but also a discussion about the long-term goal for the wilderness area
Vicki
| QUOTE (drnh3 @ Jun 11 2004, 03:10 PM) |
| effem |
We dont care if the hikers actually show up, just throwing it back in the greens faces. By us promoting hikers they loos that edge and it becomes a none issue. Then we dont have to hear Danny boy whine about hikers.....blah blah blah. Only an idiot would hike the dunes.
| QUOTE (TroyB @ Jun 11 2004, 05:15 PM) |
| We dont care if the hikers actually show up, just throwing it back in the greens faces. By us promoting hikers they loos that edge and it becomes a none issue. Then we dont have to hear Danny boy whine about hikers.....blah blah blah. Only an idiot would hike the dunes. |
Troy the only problem with that thinking is that history has shown it won't happen.
Even when the greens get their way they whine and complain to try and get more.
If no hikers showed up they'd claim it was because the mere thought that OHVers were somewhere in the same county ruins the location and they need to have us banned completely before any hikers would even consider showing up.
If hikers did show up they'd complain that even the hikers in closed areas are endangered by our presence because of dust or pollution or because "They're OHVers and you know you can't trust them to repsect closures."
| QUOTE (SailAway @ Jun 11 2004, 04:00 PM) |
| Right now it's a waste and a slap in the face. |
I desagree, they are focusing on that issue. They are even going as far as actually hiking the central closure. Last april several greens got stranded over night in the large closure in winds reaching 50 mph and the temps droped into the 50s. They are willing to risk everything to prove that the dunes are a wonderfull place to hike.
| QUOTE (TroyB @ Jun 11 2004, 04:25 PM) | ||
I desagree, they are focusing on that issue. They are even going as far as actually hiking the central closure. Last april several greens got stranded over night in the large closure in winds reaching 50 mph and the temps droped into the 50s. They are willing to risk everything to prove that the dunes are a wonderfull place to hike. |
I didn't make myself clear.
I don't think it's a waste of time to promote it.
I think the wilderness is being wasted.
And having it sit, empty of sand enthusiasts, is a slap in the face (to me).
Vicki
| QUOTE (jhitesma @ Jun 11 2004, 04:23 PM) | ||
Troy the only problem with that thinking is that history has shown it won't happen. Even when the greens get their way they whine and complain to try and get more. If no hikers showed up they'd claim it was because the mere thought that OHVers were somewhere in the same county ruins the location and they need to have us banned completely before any hikers would even consider showing up. If hikers did show up they'd complain that even the hikers in closed areas are endangered by our presence because of dust or pollution or because "They're OHVers and you know you can't trust them to repsect closures." |
Your assuming all this will happen.
Is it so hard to try something different
I'm looking at history and extrapolating. It's a little different from assuming with no basis to go from.
By your logic giving the greens the wilderness north of 78 should have shut them up - but sure enough the came back and tried for more.
Even when they got the current closures they played it up as a loss because they didn't get as much acerage as they originally wanted and the closures were only temporary not permanant. Heck they still use the current temporary closures to try and push for more.
That's how these groups work. They take anything and spin it to the extreme that it makes the uninformed reach for their checkbooks and start writing.
The only thing I can see coming from promoting hiking is more deaths, more expensive rescues, and more fuel for them to push for closures. Not to mention the threat of liability lawsuits to anyone who knowingly promotes hiking in a place that's not very safe to hike (due to nature and nature alone.)
By your logic giving the greens the wilderness north of 78 should have shut them up - but sure enough the came back and tried for more.
Even when they got the current closures they played it up as a loss because they didn't get as much acerage as they originally wanted and the closures were only temporary not permanant. Heck they still use the current temporary closures to try and push for more.
That's how these groups work. They take anything and spin it to the extreme that it makes the uninformed reach for their checkbooks and start writing.
The only thing I can see coming from promoting hiking is more deaths, more expensive rescues, and more fuel for them to push for closures. Not to mention the threat of liability lawsuits to anyone who knowingly promotes hiking in a place that's not very safe to hike (due to nature and nature alone.)
I think you would accomplish far more for much less by simply getting 50 people together and duning through it.
I would gladly trade the central closure for the North dunes. If they want to hike the central closures then by all means, go to it... but they need to give up the North dunes.
PastorVor
I would gladly trade the central closure for the North dunes. If they want to hike the central closures then by all means, go to it... but they need to give up the North dunes.
PastorVor
i think troy has an interesting idea born of the frustration of being beaten to death in the "spin wars." no on would suggest that it would "shut them up" but it must be possible to show them for the liars that they are. the greens are obviously the masters of spin and we need to do better when we get a chance to get quoted. i admit i'm not very active in the groups here but i've had several letters to the editor in the local (san luis obispo) paper about the lying greenies trying to convince people to close the last bit of pismo. one of their arguements was also that the beach should be for walkling or whatever and not vehicles and i'd fire back a letter that there is over 1,000 miles of california beach open for walking and only 5 open to vehicles, is less than 0.5% too much to ask for for a hudge number of families that enjoy the recreation area?
it is painfully clear when you read newspaper articles on the fight that when that danny and co get a quote they really know how to have an impact with their words, bullShit that they are. the greenies train their minions how to write letters with emotional impact, we really need to learn how to better diffuse their arguements.
it is painfully clear when you read newspaper articles on the fight that when that danny and co get a quote they really know how to have an impact with their words, bullShit that they are. the greenies train their minions how to write letters with emotional impact, we really need to learn how to better diffuse their arguements.
Steveo the problem is it's really hard to get quoted in a postive way when the reporter and editor are dead set to prove you're the bad guy.
I've worked at newspapers and I've been quoted many times. Very seldom do the quotes that appear in a paper compare very well to what is actually said.
Yes we need to work harder on improving our image - and there are ways to do it. But they aren't simple, they aren't cheap, and giving all the quotes in the world to reports won't make a difference.
We have to change public opinion before we can get good quotes in the papers - not the other way around.
Continuing to stick to the truth. Sticking to verifiable scientific facts. Taking the high ground and sticking it out. These are the things that will win us public approval in the long run. Every day more and more people learn how crooked, unsupported by science, and misleading the enviromental movement is. As long as we don't lower ourselves to their level in the end we will win. But it takes patience and perseverance which very few OHVers seem to be interested in
We're used to things that we have direct control over and which we can easily and quickly change when needed. Razorback ahead, change your course. Carb popping, clean it out. Tire debeaded, pop it back on and keep going. OHVers are great improvisers and damn tough to keep down.
But this fight is something where we don't have control and are fighting an uphill battle because we ignored the problem for far too long. But still very few get directly invovled in the fight and many get upset when a quick solution isn't given to them.
These are problems we can address and which will help us and which I for one would love to hear some thought on how to solve.
I've worked at newspapers and I've been quoted many times. Very seldom do the quotes that appear in a paper compare very well to what is actually said.
Yes we need to work harder on improving our image - and there are ways to do it. But they aren't simple, they aren't cheap, and giving all the quotes in the world to reports won't make a difference.
We have to change public opinion before we can get good quotes in the papers - not the other way around.
Continuing to stick to the truth. Sticking to verifiable scientific facts. Taking the high ground and sticking it out. These are the things that will win us public approval in the long run. Every day more and more people learn how crooked, unsupported by science, and misleading the enviromental movement is. As long as we don't lower ourselves to their level in the end we will win. But it takes patience and perseverance which very few OHVers seem to be interested in
We're used to things that we have direct control over and which we can easily and quickly change when needed. Razorback ahead, change your course. Carb popping, clean it out. Tire debeaded, pop it back on and keep going. OHVers are great improvisers and damn tough to keep down.
But this fight is something where we don't have control and are fighting an uphill battle because we ignored the problem for far too long. But still very few get directly invovled in the fight and many get upset when a quick solution isn't given to them.
These are problems we can address and which will help us and which I for one would love to hear some thought on how to solve.
Hello All
Nothing has T-ed me off more than seeing all the unused dunes on the North side of the 78 as I drive along to the washes. Then as I get to wash one. I hit a Demo Fee box. Where is the demo fee box for the North side? Hikers, who may or, may not, camp over there aren't required to pay for the use Of the ISDRA? "Voice of reason" came close to what I've been thinking for years.
Heres my plan. At night fall on a big weekend. Go to comp(closed of course), park, walk across the 78 and "unlawfully gather" here is it said we couln't "gather on the North side? Or better yet , if you go in a big group, as I see some of you do just take a truck over there with a camer, or tent, make sure its a 4X4. Take down your season pass OR paper pass, Park where you can be seen and wait for them to TRY to give you a ticket. Then about noon take a cell phone with you and call 911. Tell em your lost, you don't have water,etc. Bring the need for rangers to patroll the "wildeness area" LET THEM GET "DEMO FEES" Then just STOP going over there. The rangers see the "hikers" saw it wasn't the best idea in the world to go hiking in the dunes. "WE" make our case that "hikers" don't go to the dunes.
I dunno. If we give hikers a bad name to the rangers it MIGHT take some heat off the OHV people?
Just a thought.
Good luck.
Nothing has T-ed me off more than seeing all the unused dunes on the North side of the 78 as I drive along to the washes. Then as I get to wash one. I hit a Demo Fee box. Where is the demo fee box for the North side? Hikers, who may or, may not, camp over there aren't required to pay for the use Of the ISDRA? "Voice of reason" came close to what I've been thinking for years.
Heres my plan. At night fall on a big weekend. Go to comp(closed of course), park, walk across the 78 and "unlawfully gather" here is it said we couln't "gather on the North side? Or better yet , if you go in a big group, as I see some of you do just take a truck over there with a camer, or tent, make sure its a 4X4. Take down your season pass OR paper pass, Park where you can be seen and wait for them to TRY to give you a ticket. Then about noon take a cell phone with you and call 911. Tell em your lost, you don't have water,etc. Bring the need for rangers to patroll the "wildeness area" LET THEM GET "DEMO FEES" Then just STOP going over there. The rangers see the "hikers" saw it wasn't the best idea in the world to go hiking in the dunes. "WE" make our case that "hikers" don't go to the dunes.
I dunno. If we give hikers a bad name to the rangers it MIGHT take some heat off the OHV people?
Just a thought.
Good luck.
Funny.
What kind of crackhead would even try and "hike" through the dunes? I don't think whoever thought of that has walked up a dune.
Maybe it's just for Jim Morrison wannabes to drop acid out there.
What kind of crackhead would even try and "hike" through the dunes? I don't think whoever thought of that has walked up a dune.
Maybe it's just for Jim Morrison wannabes to drop acid out there.
| QUOTE |
| What kind of crackhead would even try and "hike" through the dunes? I don't think whoever thought of that has walked up a dune. |
Danny and friends did hike through the central closure a few years ago. It took them 2 days to walk from the washroad to the canal. Now, that's only about 7 miles as the crow flies.
Let's see, 3.5 miles a day, 12 hours a day, that's an average of .29 miles per hour.
Hiking the dunes is easy.
Yeah, right.
No, don't waste time or money on the green side
Don't compromise and don't kiss butt
Don't compromise and don't kiss butt
| QUOTE (Lance @ Jun 12 2004, 02:25 AM) |
| LET THEM GET "DEMO FEES" |
They have demo fees... supposedly more strictly enforced under the business plan guidelines.
They'd have to park on the OHV side and walk to the wilderness and the parking on the OHV side is when they'd get charged.
This wasn't discussed much when they pulled their staged hike a couple years ago... did the "users" pay the fee? Doubt it.
Vicki
The hikers can park along Ted Kipf road north of Hwy 78 where the Wildlife Viewing station is. They just choose not to.
| QUOTE (SailAway @ Jun 14 2004, 06:45 AM) |
| This wasn't discussed much when they pulled their staged hike a couple years ago... did the "users" pay the fee? Doubt it. |
I knew one of the reporters who was on that hike and he confirmed. No fees were paid. They were all dropped off by a van on the canal road a mile or two past the end of Roadrunner. They were picked up at a pre-determined time and location on the wash road. They used a GPS to make sure they ended up at the right spot.
Oh and they were all very happy when they got the "rare chance" to see actual PMV growing at one point along the hike.
Given the info from the person who was on the hike I made a map showing the two possible paths they took (based upon the participants info and which he later agreed looked correct...though he couldn't say which of the two paths was accurate as he didn't pay close attention to where they were dropped off):
http://hitesman.com/jason/sanddunes/cbd_hike.jpg
The yellow/red/green boxes on that map are known high density PMV locations. Notice how careful the CBD was to choose a hiking path that would assure the participants wouldn't see too many PMV?
Most of the reporters who were conned into going on that hike wrote their stories immedately afterwards and they were not very plesant.
The reporter I knew however thankfully took a more balanced approach and the next weekend he camped with Jerry Seaver, Joe Fab and the bunch of ASA/Sand Limo people down at buttercup. After his experience the week before he thougt finding PMV growing in the wild was a hard thing to do.
Jerry took him out for a ride on his golf cart. (and if any of you have seen Jerrys cart is not very modified at all. Very utilitarian but not very speedy.) They chatted for a few minutes while driving and Jerry finally stopped and told the reporter to look around. They were at a HUGE field of PMV. The reporter tried to count them but after a few minutes gave up as there were just too many.
He later got to go for rides in Jerrys Taz car and Joe's "flirtin' with disaster" back when it ran the Scat V4. They gave him a tour of a number of other PMV fields and showed up how and why OHVs stay on the areas they did.
When the story finally came it it was IMHO very well written and well balanced. Of course he and his editor got some VERY nasty phone calls and letters from danny afterwards since they had the gall to actually speak to both sides. But it's a great example of how we need to reach out to the media and make sure that they get to experience both sides. They won't come looking for both sides but if both sides are offered sometimes they will accept.
| QUOTE (schraderrl @ Jun 14 2004, 02:08 AM) |
| No, don't waste time or money on the green side Don't compromise and don't kiss butt |
Ditto!
I voted NO!!! 
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