Alex:

Be very careful about the membership numbers you hear of. Its rather easy to gain a member of anything if one does not have to pay a membership fee. I don’t believe the numbers thrown out there by some groups. I know better.

The trick is to get someone to pay for the membership that helps pay the bills and accomplish the goals of the organization as a whole.

Leadership in any organization is very tough to attract. The time, energy, and commitment are beyond what most folks are willing to commit. I know first hand the sacrifices necessary to be an officer of CORVA. The personal and financial hits are significant.

Answers? I have few at this moment, but will ponder a while to provide you some.

I won't side-track this thread too much but I have an interesting observation about just how much size matters (careful girls)...

DUNERS, in comparison to many "larger" organizations (according to membership rosters), is relatively small (in numbers).

And yet, when we are in front of our legislators (federal or state), there has never, ever, been a discussion or a question as to membership numbers. Not once. We have never been asked how many people we represent by any of the "movers and shakers" that we've spent time with.

We may not have pages and pages of membership roster, but what we have in passion is greater than many of those larger organizations and apparently that's what counts.

So... unlike other things , I guess when it comes to what an organization is able to accomplish, size really doesn't matter.

Vicki

Then the question begs to be asked, what is the approximate count of PAID members of the list you speak of? PAID meaning contributing a set membership fee per month, year, etc.

Don't know the number of paid members and it doesn't matter.

I pay every year, plus time and effort for various things. Some people like my brother never pay anything, yet he contributes a lot time and effort and purchases merchandise.

So freakin' what?

Not the point of the thread anyway.

We've had this silly membership number arguement before and it's pointless.

My whole reason for responding to what I did is because I know how many members the ASA has. You are not required to believe anything.

Geeze Mr. Washroad, I only asked a simple question based upon your response to my statement. If you cannot or will not disclose this information, that’s up to you.

But when others and I hear rather large membership number claims, I'd like to get some more detail to assess the accuracy of the claim.

And while you have an opinion of what this thread is about, I have mine. My question to you is not off-topic; it is not as it directly goes to your response to my post.

As of our last BOD meeting Our membership director Reported that we had 17000 or so (sorry dont rember the exact amount ) confirmed ,varifiable Members.With mailing addresses not just e mail.

Our Membership Director Dick Holiday spent days weeks and months going through each and every name to confirm the accurracy. It was an exhaustive process. It was really in response to claims that we were fudging our membership #,s. I guess it falls in the category of WATCH YOUR LEADERS

Unlike Vicki's experience I have been asked many times how many people we represent. I believe I was asked and quoted in the Press enterprise just the other day.


What # of that is paid I don't remember either but it was reported. It really is'nt important how many are paid because we don't require it to be a member.

I hope this answers your question.

The cool thing is for your free membership you do get a newsletter every couple of months.

I think the intent of Alex's thread is good. Just Join someone you can support and "DO WHAT YOU CAN"

Thanks for your insight Grant.

So if I hear you correctly, you folks spend somewhere near $ 8500.00 per issue on your newsletter, assuming a conservative number of $ .50 per member for printing and mailing.

Given the above, and the fact I see no real advertising revenue, the cost of communicating with the membership is a ton of money!

Further, from what you have wrote here, ASA is now the largest OHV organization in California. In fact, based upon the numbers I have available to me, ASA has more members that ALL PAID membership OHV organizations of significance here in California combined.

As a former President of a statewide paid membership OHV organization, we always struggled to service the desires of the membership and take the fight to the opposition. My hat is off to you for being able to pay the bills without commanding membership revenue!

Maybe sharing the secret of ASA’s success in this area with the other OHV leadership would be in order.

IIRC printing costs on the last few newsletters were donated by the print shop. I seem to remember they even upgraded us to recycled paper and environmentally friendly soy based ink (in color no less!) free of charge.

Not sure if they donated the full cost...but I know the upgrades were donated free of charge.

At the last ASA BOD meeting it was also discussed that the newsletter actually brings in more than it costs to put out due to the number of people who send in donations after a newsletter comes out. Which to me indicates that the honor system still works and people will donate even if they don't have to just to be a member of something.

But then again I also believe shareware is workable and even sharehardware like the Garmin plugs from pfranc.com.

Or maybe it's just that OHVers and people who hack their own electronics are a lot more trustworthy than the people green groups aim at for membership who have to be constantly bombarded with chicken little warnings (which they spend more on sending out than they do on actually doing anything) just to keep their membership numbers intact

I don't do the whole "quote" thing to well.

There is no secret to our success Hard work ,dedicated volunteers and staying focused on our mission statement. Unite,Inform and Mobilize.

Yes our newsletter is damn expensive. But what better way to communicate with our membership. We are always being painted as not as not keeping our membership informed,but we believe we are reaching a huge # of people.We also have a standing offer for any other org. to contribute an article.

I will say every month I receive my CORVA newslatter I am impressed with the dedication of those folks.

Tom ,Yeah we were actually accused of alot worse than just Fudging our #'s.
But thats irrelevant now.

just got my newsletter the other day

[QUOTE=tom simrak,Jun 10 2004, 06:36 PM] [QUOTE] Tom

If any group has 17,000 real members, thats awsome and the membership director(s) should be applauded.

[/QUOTE]
Start applauding Dick Holliday and his team. We Have 17000+"REAL" members.

He was able to accomplish what 2 or 3 membership directors before him could'nt.

Starting from nothing 4 or 5 Sand Shows ago to a stack of membership forms all in different formats and relying on a league of volunteers and I don't know how many versions of software . To where we are now is Awesome.

Now to get on with those Check boxes , Right JIM.

Just got an e mail from Dick.

As of Today we have 17392 members 1155 of that are supporting.

We need to build that to 10000 supporting and we could really do some damage to the Enemy!

Grant,

That's quite a few posts from you in that last few hours. And at your typing rate, your fingers must be pretty tired.

Thanks for the info. Now go have a cold one.

Jon

[QUOTE][QUOTE=tom simrak,Jun 10 2004, 06:36 PM] [QUOTE] Tom

If any group has 17,000 real members, thats awsome and the membership director(s) should be applauded.

[/QUOTE]

I see why you dont do the quote thing. Just kidding.

Those are great numbers and I applaud them, as I said we should.

hey grant, all you have to do is click the "qoute" button its on everyones posts.

Ask Grant if he likes computers!

He hates them more than I hate asparagus!

I know this is off-topic (sorry Alex, I'll try to bring it back) but the issue of "real" members has been brought up around the DUNERS campfire from time to time.

Although it's not been an issue politically, I understand what Grant is saying… I too have been asked about the size of DUNERS' membership by media hounds… they love statistics. Usually the question is followed up with another about where most of those members might be living… I think they want to know how many of our members are part of their "readership"

So what constitutes a "real" member? I think Duck's questions may address more of a differentiation between paid and non-paid members but our consternation is similar. If you count the members who have filled out a membership form our numbers are fairly small. But what about the family members of the one who filled out the form? I've had the spouses and the children of those members complain that they are not counted since their membership is under a "family" option.

And not so long ago, a friend of my son (15-years old), said he wants to sign up. Of course he can be a member but is he a "real" member when numbers are asked for? How about the 17-year old kid who signed up so he could get the free Sand Addiction subscription? He's on the roster too. The ASA must have their own battles with this… I remember long ago when my niece signed up so she could get a free sticker (she was 12 at the time).

So we're back to the campfire discussions… when asked for our membership numbers, does the 15-year old friend, the 17-year old with the magazine, the 12-year old with the sticker or the 8-year old son of a registered member constitute a "real" member, at least in the eyes of the people asking for those numbers? Let's say they do and so we add all those to our "count" when asked. Is that ethical?

Does the New York Times really want to know how many children our members have? I'm fairly certain that in political circles the 15-year old friend would not be what the representative is looking for. But he is on the roster so is it just a matter of spin?

We've struggled with this for a while because we do have spouses of members and kids that want to be counted but sometimes we feel like we should be keeping separate numbers so when someone does ask we can be more precise instead of saying "well, we have xxx members but of course some of those are the children of our members and there are the ones who only signed up to get something free blah blah blah" as we watch the requestor's eyes glaze over

We think that when we are asked for the numbers of members we have they are looking "real" members… so, I'm asking… what is a "real" member?

Vicki

Well I dont know what real memebership is either. I guess that is for each group or org to decide for themselves. I spoke with my brother today and asked him if he is a member of any group. He of course said recieved a news letter from one so he thinks so. Allthough he does not follow their dealings, read their board or attend meetings of any sort,by definition he is a member. If you ask him what the have done, or who is on th BOD, he has no idea. So is he a member? I asked him why he doesnt cancel his membership. He said he didnt know how, or why. He didnt see a need to cancel a membership to something that cost him nothing and puts nothing into and why spend the time doing it? So yes, he is a member, by definition. Should he be counted? Thats not for me to decide.
Now if someone tells me they have 1100 plus supporting, paid members, thats a great number. I applaud that.

Wow. That's a whole different issue... about the closest I've ever come to that is a free web-based group I signed up with years ago, that I keep getting stuff from. Fine when I had time but not now. Rather than notify them that I'm no longer interested, I just delete the emails. They still have me on their list and rightfully so. I guess they'd delete me if the emails started bouncing back. Have I been a "real" member even though they just annoy me these last couple of years? Technically, yes.

We have some members, like for instance that 17-year old who joined to get the free magazine (even though at that time the magazine was slightly cheaper for a year's subscription ) who I would say fit into the same mold as your brother. The only difference is, we will be sending renewal notices and this kid will most likely not renew... makes it a little easier to track.

But in our case, even the paid memberships are perplexing because there is one payment for a family membership but are both spouses and the kids included in the count? Should one paid membership on the books show four members under that payment? Would that be considered four paid members? Individual memberships are pretty easy to figure out but what about the families?

You see the dilemma… it's only a concern when someone asks, and only a concern for the sake of accuracy. Like I said, I don't want to have to keep explaining the details "we have xxx members but 1/3 are children of our paying members that volunteer for our events so they wanted to be counted yadda yadda yadda."

Oy, it makes my head spin!

Vicki

I'm a member of Glamisdunes.com and we count as our "real" members each and every person who enjoys the sport of "Dunin".
Haven't counted lately.

PastorVor

Vicki, How many members does DUNERS have? I have never seen a number and am curious.

What is a “real” member?

To me a real member is someone that made a conscious effort to be included in our membership records. They may also have made a conscious effort to add their spouse and/or children to the records as well. It is true that all these people may not be of voting age but on the other hand how many people of voting age are registered to vote? As well as general members a member may elect to step up and pay a yearly donation and be a supporting member. The supporting member will receive a small token for their increased support of the organization. What makes our organization so unique is our general or free membership. We send a newsletter to all our members, both free and supporting, to help keep the duning community aware of the current issues with the ISDRA.

The ASA has completed an extensive review of the membership roles and has verified that each member has a valid US postal service address and removed any duplicate entries. Is our database completely duplicate free, no but we have an ongoing program to try and weed out the duplicates. When we send out mailings and have some returned then we research these, try to contact the member that may have moved and if we cannot contact the member then that member is removed from our records. Members may sign up online, at a show or through a direct mail in of a request for membership.

The latest entry to be assigned a membership ID was number 19816 and as we have currently some 17390 verified members so that means, over the last few years, about 2400 people have been deleted from our membership roles. These deletions were for many reasons such as the person contacted us and expressed a desire to be removed from our membership, they moved and we could not contact them, we could not verify their address and could not contact them or there was a duplicate and it was removed.

To answer the question is a spouse and/or child of a member a real member the answer is YES. We represent the whole family in the pursuit of keeping our riding areas open. When we speak of members we are including the registered family members as they recreate just as much as the main member does. If we were only going to count registered voters than we are not really representing a true cross section of dune users.

I work at this so my grandchildren will have the opportunity to experience what I did when I started duning and what my children did as they grew up in a duning family. The ASA is an all volunteer organization and welcome any assistance that you may want to provide

Obviously I did'nt write all that. Its from our membership director. Although the ASA BOD shares his view..

Vicki what mechanism do you use to communicate with your membership?

Look at some the membership numbers some of the GAGs talk about...

Look at some of the "poll" numbers they talk about that they use to "support" their agenda...

Only an idiot would accept them as accurate. ..but they keep on spouting them off.

We may be flawed...but I am willing to bet the numbers our orgs claim are far more accurate that any number the GAGs can come up with.

Imagine that...an intelligent discourse between the org principles... and no one has tried to screw it up.

Nice to see...

Vick you left out the endless discussions while at the dunes. Also about letting the members take charge of issues. It's been very successful. The members seem to come up with the best solutions. And of course they feel more involved. The BOD makes many many decisions every week, but, through the membership we get an excellent feel for what they want. Getting them involved as much as possible will lead to a successful org. Without the ACTIVE members we would be a failure. ACTIVE membership is sooo important to any organization. Numbers mean nothing unless they are active. However, i'm not saying that the ASA's membership isn't impressive. It really is.

Hell I signed up at least 400 of those members, myself.


Now when was the last time you saw the CBD put there membership numbers in the paper? Also, ask Terri Weiner of the DPC how many members she has and ask her if they do anything? You'll get the same answer I got. "I can't get my members to get off their ass and do anything." She was quite impressed with our volunteers. Of course so is DUNERS..

We duners are WAY more active then the GAG's members. Trust me on this. However, the problem is we can't get the funding they do. Seems people like giving money to someone that says "but, those poor furry animals will die if you don't donate". See we don't have that niche.

Only thing we have is YOU. And we need alot more of you. With alot more of YOU we can rule by numbers. Politicians' love potential votes.

Active members is a tough number to nail for any organization since it depends so highly on how you define active.

I know from maintainting the ASA's databases that close to 200 members are currently listed as active on various committees (after weeding out the duplicates from those who are involved in more than one committee) - and that a lot of committee chairs have been lax about updating the membership of their committees so there are probably quite a few more who aren't listed yet. Oh and out of those it looks like almost 50% of the members servind on committees are free members. But that dosen't count a lot of volunteers like those who help out on special projects (working booths at events, working phone trees, contacting local officials....) just those who help organize the majority of volunteers.

And based on the reports at the last board meeting about how many envelopes came back from the last newletter mailing it sure sounds like the majority of them are being read. And apparently having enough impact to make a good portion of those who read it send in donations even if they're "just free members".

Also from helping to answer questions that come in to the webmaster mailing address I know that quite a few people read the e-mails that get sent out based on how many comments come in after one is sent.

Based on the various clubs I've been a member of over the years I'd have to say the ASA seems to have a higher percentage of active and involved volunteers than any paid membership club I've been a member of.

I know the various radio clubs I was a member of back in Ohio you were lucky if 1% of the membership took part in any kind of organized events, and 10% showing up at a meeting would mean standing room only since they never really expected that many.

When I was a member of American Coaster Enthusiasts the numbers were even worse, most people just joined so they could go to the special events and get the magazine. Very few actually did anything to actively participate in the club. I never knew the actual membership numbers of the club so it's hard to say exactly how many but the number had to be a fraction of a percent of those who did more than just read the magazine. (Similar to the nubmer of species saved by the ESA)

Personally one of the things I really like about the ASA is that they do offer a free membership. To me that shows a number of things.

First that they actively want everyone who is concerned to participate and have a way to stay informed. The fact that membership is not required to participate in the BBS or get on the mailing list also reinforces this. But that makes sense considering the aims of the ASA are to "Unite, Inform, Mobilize"

Secondly it shows that they're willing to try something different. I've been in a number of clubs who rely on membership dues to survive. Heck there are even websites out there that work that way. The ASA instead basically says everyone is welcome and we trust that if they're concerned they'll help out in other ways either by volunteering or donating.

I mentioned this earlier but to me it works kind of like any honor system. The feeling I get from an organization that charges membership fees is that they don't trust their membership to take part or be honest with them so they require a financial agrement with the members to cement the deal. The ASA on the other hand says "come on it, join the gang. If you can help in some way we trust you to let us know and join in the fight!"

There are some other organizations out there that I would like to join, but my funds don't allow it. I probably couldn't even be an ASA member if it wasn't for the free membership. But I try to make up for the fact that I get a membership for free by volunteering my time instead....honestly I think I'm getting ripped off in that deal though But I don't mind because it's the cause that I care about and this gives me a way to be involved and still put food on my table. If there were more orgs that offered free memberships and were fighting in this fight I'd probably join them as well...and volunteer as much as I could in exchange.

Now all of this is just my personal feelings and opinions. Admittedly if i wasn't a volunteer I wouldn't have the information to make the statements in my second and third paragraphs, but the interpertations of them are my own and not officially recognized by the ASA in any way. But I know as a volunteer that many times I've gotten calls from BOD members and Commitee chairs (some whom I knew already others who I had never heard of) and have been asked for my input and help on various issues. They don't always like what I have to say but more often than not we both come out gaining more from the discussion that then follows than we would if I had just nodded and said "yes" to whatever I was asked. (It also means sometimes the discussions can get kind of heated, similar to what goes on on these BBSes - but at the end everyone is fighting for the same thing that's what is really important. Not how we choose to go about achieving that goal.)

I paid for a DUNERs membership. And I got... ? And would their board listen to me? Will I pay again? Not hard to figure that one out.

Tom not everyone can come up with $15.

If I could there are a bunch of groups I'd love to join. But that $15 can mean the difference between having to choose between gas to get out to the dunes or putting food on the table.

The $90 season pass means I really have to work the budget and give up a few weekends in the dunes.

Some people like paying to be a member of an organization. Some of us like being welcomed for what we can offer other than cash. People are different, accept it.

The only groups I personally am willing to pay to be a member of (if I had the money to do so) are those which can give me somthing tangible in return. ACE gave me a great full color magazine that blew away anything else out there in their field. Radio clubs give access to special features on their repeaters. Some clubs just the newsletter alone is worth $10-$20 a year.

But in our fight I agree with the ASA's feeling that it's more important to get the word out to people and inform them than it is to collect money from them. I can't think of any other organization I've ever heard of that was so strongly committed to keeping people informed that they offered a printed newsletter to free members. Personally I find that VERY impressive.

Different groups do things different ways. That's one of the great things about living in a country where we're free to make our own choices and decisions.

Hmmm... How should we count members? What a conundrum!

Well, I wonder how the BLM counts the number of people at the dunes over a major holiday?

Does the BLM just count paying guests? No, as the pass is for number of street vehicles going into the ISDRA, not per person.

Does the BLM count only registered voters? I doubt it, as how would they get the high visitation numbers they record.

Does the BLM count only adults? Nope

The BLM counts vehicles crossing mechanical counters and uses some mystical mathmatical formula to come up with an average number of people per car, which includes children.

SO, if the BLM can count everybody, children to older people, at the dunes and use those numbers officially, WHY can't a private organization count ALL registered members, irregardless of age?

The only way a person can be an ASA member is to have signed up. That alone suggests they have an interest in the organization. I am a supporting member of the ASA and volunteer a lot of my time too. I am also a member of DUNERS, CORVA, SDORC, BRC, NRA, FOP, PWC, FOLP, and several local groups.

My main interest is the ASA as they were the first to form to protect our sand riding sport and they have been the most effective so far. I support the other groups as they are also working hard and have helped make inroads in the fight.

This battle we are fighting needs to be fought at many different levels using different techniques. ALL the organizations can use some support, both monetarily and by volunteering.

Its up to YOU to choose how, when , who, and how much to contribute. To me, my support of the various organizations is DIRECTLY proportional to my passion for dune riding.

As for membership numbers, if they signed up, they should be counted. After all, the more people who support an issue, the more important the issue is to politicians.

SUPPORT someone, or everyone, but doing nothing is just wrong!

Certainly interesting conversation. It shows that even some of the simple things are not black and white in this advocacy game.

Good conversation for sure!!!

One topic had to be locked this week already because of rapid downward spiral.

This thread has roller-coastered quite a bit but there are actually some worthwhile discussions here. It would be a shame to have to lock this one too, but if the usual clowns come on and start that downward spiral again, there will be no hesitation.

It also looks like it could be headed into another ASA vs. DUNERS thread and I think everyone's had just about enough of that. The question "are you a member" has been answered by at least one person as "no" because of the whole ASA vs. DUNERS thing.

The dunes can't afford to lose any more support.

Vicki

Other than a few dips, There has been some pretty good dialog. In my opinion it is just bringing to light some fundemental differances in the different orgs.Especially from a membership standpoint. No right or wrong just different.

Well said, Grant.

Who should be counted as a "real" member?

Everyone that signs up. They are all "real" people. They all go to Glamis (or Dumont, or wherever). They are all concerned with what happens there.

I was rather defensive in an earlier post; I interpreted another person's post as an attempt to get sly and try to deride the membership numbers of the ASA and it has been done before. If it really truly wasn't meant that way, I apologize. Some members of some orgs get real touchy at times.

Still to me, it doesn't matter whether someone pays to be a member or not. They are REAL members.

As I also said earlier, and Frankie commented on GAGs, check the membership numbers of the NRA. Rather huge org, ya know. Lots of money. How many are
"real" members or just people that send money. Hmmmm. Well, imho, they are all real and should be counted.

The 17 year old that bought a membership just to get the mag, count him as real. He thinks he is.

My friend Bill in Chino Hills signed up for a family membership. Should we count his 4 year old daughter in this as a "real" member? Yup! You betcha! She goes to the dunes and rides a 50cc Zuki. She's dammed real.

My wife is a member of the ASA. Never does anything for them. She's real.

So, if you're wondering who's a real member, just look at your membership forms and count them all. They're all real members and I'm sure they think they are also.

Interesting discussion. Why locking this thread would even be considered is perplexing given past statements by some on this board that you could pretty much speak your mind here on GD.com vs the so called "other" board. I know allowing poeple to speak their mind has always been Slappy's spirit. Hate to see anybody taint that spirit.

What constitutes a "real" member?
Anybody that makes a concious effort to signup with a given org, group or what have you.

Back in the beggining the biggest problem those that founded the ASA recognized was that big things were coming down on the ISDRA and virtually nobody knew about it, including they themselves for the most part. So as they learned what was happening they made diseminating the information as they learned of it the first, biggest and foremost priority. They made the biggest effort to make sure that information was factual as well. Misinformation was a huge problem in the begining as it still is today. They believed that informing the public of the pending lawsuit by the cbd and the various other growing issues affecting the dunes was the best way to empower the dune users to fight back for whatever that particular person believed in, whether individually or together as a group. I myself was one of those early individuals Vince and Jerry informed, and I chose to get involved, monetarily and physically. Contact information, no matter if it was e-mail, snail mail, phone, bird, plane or two cups and a string, that was all we cared about at that time. Desperate would be an understatement. Toss in panic, kaos, confusion and that pretty much sumed it up back then. As mentioned above, after two others failed to tackle the job, Doc and his partners have weeded out and refined that original members list into more than 17000 verifiable members. It is virtually impecable and growing daily.

Should someone have to pay a monetary fee to be a member?
From day one the ASA recognized the enormous value of a volunteers efforts. In many cases these efforts have been priceless, above any monetary contribution any one person could make. Again see my explaination above. Priority one has always been the ability to contact a person to let them know what's happening. Empower them to take action if they can, anyway they can and which ever direction they choose.

Should a person be required to renew their membership yearly or what have you in order to be considered a current valid member?

Should a lifetime free membership be considered valid?

Let me put it this way. When was the last time the Republican party, the Democratic party or what ever political party you may be a member of required you renew your affiliation, required you to pay a fee, or even required you to participate on any level in order to be considered a valid lifetime member?