**This was split off from the "update" topic***

Good news and bad news. I haven't heard from Glenn yet, but I did talk to the BLM.

Apparently there was a meeting but not a TRT meeting. A TRT rep was invited to attend, however, to represent the duning community.

Among other things, an "alcohol initiative" and the sand drags were discussed. I'm still waiting for further word but I'm guessing the alcohol initiative is that same tired old bone they've been trying to institute for years. And the sand drags? One can only guess.

Of course one can only guess, if one is a member of the public, since the public is once again being excluded from important discussions concerning public lands.

grrrrrrrrrrrr

Vicki

Just got on-line and I have 2 computers going right now. Finishing up some workleft over from yesterday.

Here is my reply to an email from SailAway:

Thank you Glenn.

Greg Thomsen (El Centro Field Office Manager) indicated there was more to it then that, but maybe that's just a matter of perspective. I said "Greg, was there a TRT meeting yesterday?" and he said "No, no TRT meeting." and I said "Glenn mentioned in a post that he was going to El Centro on Monday to represent the duning community" and Greg said "Oh, he must be talking about a meeting we had where the alcohol initiative and the sand drags were discussed" and I said "Geez Greg, this is kind of important stuff, don't you think since it effects public policies on public land that maybe the public should be involved?" and he said there are many meetings between the BLM and law enforcement agencies where the public isn't involved and the TRT was invited to this one to represent the public and I said that there was no notice so the public really wasn't involved blah blah blah, you get the drift.

So you see, it was primary in his mind, which of course raised a red flag for me.

He put me in touch with someone higher up the food chain on the law enforcement ladder to get some answers on the alcohol initiative, so I should get some more info on that later today.

I'm glad to hear you believe there is a push to keep the drags open. Still, it is important to the duning community so we need to stay informed.

Glenn... when was the TRT notified of this meeting?

Vicki

I was'nt at the meeting but have been briefed.

ASA was represented . And will post a meeting report.

The long and the short of ,no alcohol ban was discussed . awareness yes!

No sand drag ban was discussed. spectator safety yes!

Vicki,If you can call me ASA has a project that we would like to include DUNERS on.

The more I ponder this, the more I am convinced that there must have been two different meetings. Greg never mentioned the ASA being there officially, unless he was confused because so many of the TRT members are ASA leaders? *shrug*

I'll give Greg another call to straighten this out... he said he would be getting back to me but hasn't, so a "nag" call is in order.

Greg specifically mentioned an "alcohol initiative" which is much more formal than discussing alcohol awareness. Even if he was confused and it wasn't mentioned at the meeting where the TRT was invited, obviously such a thing exists and we, the duning public, need to be aware of what is being done in this regard. More specifically, we need to ensure that those giving "input" on these issues truly represent the desires of the duning community.

NO MORE SECRET MEETINGS!

Vicki

Okay, I finally heard back from one BLM guy (the California top dog in law enforcement) but I haven't heard back yet from Greg Thomsen (El Centro Field Office Manager).

So what we still don't know is why this meeting about issues that are important to the public land known as the ISDRA was unpublicized to the public. Hopefully we'll find out tomorrow (ever the optimist). Actually, I'm not really concerned with the "why" of the public not knowing/participating but I'm hoping knowing "why" will help keep it from happening again. The end goal has to be more open communication.

What we did find out is that THERE WAS NO DISCUSSION ON BANNING ALCOHOL. The "initiative" that was discussed (he used that same word, even actually calling it an alcohol initiative) had to do with cracking down on DUIs. This guy sees absolutely no reason at all to invent new rules and/or regulations (how unique) and doesn't even support the suggestion of an alcohol ban. His words were that he wouldn't even entertain the idea.

But he has a great concern over the DUIs and so the initiative that was and will again be discussed is concerning how to deal with that particular alcohol-related problem.

I asked him about the sand drags and he again said he doesn't support eliminating the drags. Would he like to make them safer? Sure, but, as he said, ours is an inherently dangerous sport.

By the way, he's open to suggestions on how to make the drags safer for the spectator (he gets nagged a lot about the danger to the spectators). But, since it's not a "sanctioned" event, making it safer is pretty much in our hands.

Any thoughts?

Vicki

I have a thought....Big surpise huh...

I for on am sick and tired of these meetings happening. The invited guest are there to represent the duning community. Yet those envited have yet to ask the duning community about the issues. When did TRT ask us how we felt about that alcohal inititive? When did ASA ask us how we felt about it? Are we being informed? When were we, the public, informed of this meeting? It blows me away that so few of us get upset by this.
The logical answer is "these are my leaders because they say so, so they must be doing a good job"...

Sorry, just a little upset by this continued type of crap that is being mis-labeled as leadership.

Did BLM, TRT or ASA say anything to the public about this meeting? No. Fortunatly, the issue of informing the public has been addressed with BLM and it shouldnt happen again. We'll see.

Funny thing that the only information posted regarding this meeting has been posted by someone who was not even at the meeting.

I know this post will be called an attack, an attempt to de-rail, infighting....what ever. Sorry, I call a spade a spade. Again, as with other important, recent issues, we were not informed. I have to ask why. I refuse to be a lemming, because someone says we will represent you.


Im done now.

Hey,,,no...HAY...bales of HAY. Imperial Valley has TONS of HAY. Two rows of HAY, two bales high,100 ft apart would work just fine.

While I'm not sure that this was some sort of formal meeting to discuss policy for the future, but a couple of pertinent laws come to mind:


The Government in the Sunshine Act

"Many federal agencies, most notably the independent regulatory agencies, are headed by collegial bodies, e.g., the five commissioners of the Federal Trade Commission. These agencies make most of their decisions through discussions and voting by the board or commissions members. To ensure that such meetings and decisions do not take place in secret, Congress passed the Government in the Sunshine Act in 1976 (5 USC 552b). About 50 federal agencies are subject to the law.

The Act prescribes the procedures an agency must follow to claim an exemption from the open meetings rule. Agencies are allowed to close meetings to protect national security or other information that could frustrate proposed agency action. Agencies can also close meetings that involve discussion of pending or anticipated litigation in which the agency is involved.

Some agencies have been accused of changing the names of meetings — that is to say, calling them something else (such as staff discussions) — or of using telephone conference calls to avoid the intent of this Act."

The other legislation that many not have an effect here, but still directs government about "advisory committees" and the like is contained in the link below:

http://it.ojp.gov/faca-full.jsp

Thank you Duck, that's exactly what Nik was referring to earlier. And as we saw several times last year, using telephone conferences became a popular way to conduct meetings... interesting that in your quote they are considered a tactic to avoid including the public. That's exactly what we were afraid of.

It would appear I am not the only one concerned with the issue of the BLM not informing the public of issues related to public lands.

I'll have to take a closer look at that "Sunshine Act."

Vicki

Wow.

I won't argue with anyone over this, but I will say that I didn't ask for input from anyone because I didn't have specifics for this meeting. I was invited and I went.

Glenn

When ASA has accurate meeting notes with input from the attendees,they will posted at the ASA site with a link posted at GD.com

You know, discussing the issue is one thing, constantly badgering each other over and over is quite another. This reminds me of Talk Radio shows which I turn off.
I LOVE talk radio, but when Michael Savage goes off on a rant against one of the callers, or Rick Roberts starts yelling I change the channel.

The constant bickering in this topic is making people change the channel

There was a meeting... Now we know... thanks for the information.

DUI Checkpoints: I agree with this except, I'm not so concerned about Sand Highway. I want CHP checkpoints on 78! It should be IMPOSSIBLE to drive down 78 while intoxicated.

The Drags: I never said I wanted the drags closed down, only that the speed limit should be enforced. If the area is less then 100 yards wide then driving more then 15-25 mph is against the law. If the crowd wants to see people hauling ass then they should get their own ass out of the way, otherwise allow it to become what it is naturally inclined to become, a parking lot for people to show off their rides similar to the parking area at Olds! There is absolutely nothing wrong with this! There is an entire desert available for wheelies and hauling ass.

Ok...
Now, to all concerned... OF COURSE you are more then welcome to express your opinions here, and completely encouraged to debate all issues... but the constant bickering is getting very old and people are tuning out. No one is listening to you.

PastorVor

I give...I have a slightly different take on this. I believe I can see beyond the "bickering" as some have called this. I see a relative few people working VERY hard in their own way to keep the dunes open for all of the rest of us. It is a very complex undertaking, with far more negatives than positives attached. It is only natural for there to be some disagreement between those dedicated people/groups. And I'm more than willing to accept that..Small price to pay in my mind for all that they are trying to do. I don't agree with everything any of the various people/groups do, but looking at the big picture they are all working for the right reasons...keeping the dunes open, and trying to rip the unnecessary closures out of the clutches of our true enemy, the eco-nazi's.

It is unfortunate to have to say that I don't know all of these hard working VOLUNTEERS personally. I do know from reading this forum and others that Vicki has a deep commitment to the dunes. And I know that very few people understand just how much of his time and effort that Grant has been putting into his duties as the ASA president. And I strongly suspect that all of the various volunteers have similar stories that we should all be aware of, and thankful for.

So, I say...go ahead and argue..bicker..debate..whatver you want to call it. You've earned it, and I think it's actually healthy to see different perspectives. And know that this one duner appreciates all of your efforts....(even when you're wrong )

Here is a little background on the subject meeting

http://www.americansandassociation.org/new...cle&article=177

Today I received meeting minutes from the BLM and I'll post them below. However, I have written back to the BLM to get clarification because these minutes seem almost entirely devoted to the sand drag issue and it was our understanding that the June 21st meeting involved other issues besides the sand drags. Spefically, DUI enforcement was discussed at length, including requests for suggestions, checkpoint discussions, etc., yet it is but briefly mentioned here and then almost in direct reference to safety at the drags. As this is contrary to what was discussed via telephone, I would like to see the "official" meeting minutes more accurately reflect what was discussed so I will follow up and post what I learn.

=======================

Meeting Minutes for Imperial Sand Dunes Recreation Area, spectator safety at impromptu sand drag events
June 21st, 2004 @ the BLM El Centro Field Office

Meeting attendees : Bob Mason (ASA), Sharon Mason (ASA), Glenn Montgomery (TRT), Roger Bruckner (BLM), Ray Leloup (BLM), Ralph Hernandez (CHP), Mark McNay (ICSO), Jamie Neilans (BLM), Neil Hamada (BLM); on conference phone Nicole Gilles(Gateway Communities and TRT), and Jerry Seaver (TRT).

Background: The ASA has approached the BLM with concerns about
safety at the impromptu sand drags over the past few years. At that time there were several types of illegal and dangerous actions that were taking place at or near the drags and the rest of the Dunes. Since then, the BLM has made law enforcement at the dunes one of the highest priorities for the El Centro Field Office. The BLM developed a strategy that has, and continues, to work to provide a safe recreational environment in the Dunes and at the drags. This strategy is centered on strict enforcement of the current and new rules and regulations, outreach / education, and a partnership with Imperial County Sheriff’s Office (ICSO), and the ASA.

The BLM and ICSO have spent several millions of appropriated, grant, and fee dollars in the dunes to work together with the ICSO on the “Zero Tolerance” initiative. This increased law enforcement presence has had a significant impact at the drags and around the Dunes. Visitors are much more receptive to the BLM staff, they are complying with the regulations at the sand drags and other areas, and medical incidents are down approximately 15% dunes wide. Alcohol related issues such as DUI and open containers have been significantly decreased and visitor safety has improved.

The BLM, ICSO, and the ASA have all worked together, as partners, to produce and distribute several types of flyers to improve safety. These flyers provided visitors information on the rules and regulations in the Dunes, emergency phone numbers, and specific information on how to be safe at the sand drags. Several thousand of these flyers were distributed on site by the BLM in the ASA “Duner’s survival kit” bag. The ASA included safety information for the impromptu sand drag events into their member newsletter and also passed out this information at the dunes and Sand Sports Super Show at Costa Mesa, CA. All the groups have also utilized their websites as a way to reach out to the visitors before they arrive at the Dunes.

Together, this effort has made a significant positive impact in the Dunes. There are fewer violations, and a family atmosphere has returned to the Dunes. This is not to say all the problems have been solved, but they are fewer and less significant incidents compared to a few years ago. The BLM will continue to strictly enforce the rules and regulations and to respond to Public Safety issues.

Earlier this summer ASA initiated correspondence with BLM again regarding safety issues at the impromptu sand drags. Last season the sand drags grew to be an every weekend activity at both the North and South dunes. The number of spectators has grown steadily. The participating vehicles and drivers cover a broad spectrum. Multiple vehicles traveling at varying speeds entering and leaving the drag area at will is a concern to the ASA.

During the last season continued BLM and Imperial County Sheriffs’ Office law enforcement and ASA outreach efforts have improved driver and spectator safety. The possibility of a catastrophic incident resulting from equipment failure or driver error continues to be a significant concern of the ASA. The ASA believes the potential for unfavorable press and political concern is ever present.

Several meetings have been held this year (2004) with BLM Washington and California State BLM management. The following is a list of these meetings and the participants:

Feb 25, 2004 in Phx -----------------Bill Woody, BLM Director of Law
Enforcement Jerry Seaver, ISDRA TRT Chairman and Bob Mason of ASA.

Apr 13, 2004 in Wash, DC---------Keith Aller, Assistant to Woody; Nicole
Gilles, TRT; Ken Rosevear, Yuma Chamber; Jim McGarvie, ORBA & SORC; Grant George and Bob Mason of ASA

May 18, 2004 in Wash, DC---------Kathleen Clarke, Director of BLM; Roger Bruckner, Assistant to Woody; Wally Leimgruber, Imperial County Board of Supervisors; Ken Rosevear, Yuma Chamber; Roy Denner, ORBA; Jan McGarvie, SDORC; Bob Mason, ASA

June 4, 2004 in El Centro---------Greg Thomsen, Bob Haggerty, Neil Hamada, Roger Bruckner all of BLM; Sheriff Carter and Mark McNay of ICSO; Wally Leimgruber, Imperial County; Ralph Fernandez, CHP; Ken Rosevear, Yuma Chamber; Bob Mason, ASA . This meeting was requested by Wally Leimgruber.

At this meeting, and as in the past meetings, the BLM reinforced to the group that the sand drags are not an illegal activity and that the BLM has no plans to stop legal recreation. They stated that medical incidents at the drags are few and when they do occur, the visitors are cooperative. The BLM also stated that when illegal activity occurs, or there is a threat to Public Safety, they will continue to immediately address the issue as they have in the past.

Meeting Minutes
This meeting was a follow up to the June 4, 2004 meeting requested by Imperial County Supervisor Wally Leimgruber. At the conclusion of the June 4, 2004 meeting Greg Thomsen suggested that a small group be convened to discuss spectator activities. June 21, 2004 was set for the subsequent meeting. Neil Hamada suggested that the TRT be involved in future meetings. Thomsen also noted that results would be considered in the development of the 2004-05 Law Enforcement plans.

The people in the list above met to discus the changes that have occurred to improve visitor safety at the drags. The BLM informed the group that it had contacted the solicitor’s office about a year ago on this issue, and under their direction, BLM will not install physical structures to guide vehicles or sanction impromptu events in the Dunes. The ASA stated that they do not want the Drags shut down. ASA is concerned about spectator safety and unfavorable press if a driver loses control of an OHV and impacts the spectators. The ASA and BLM want to minimize risk and improve driver behavior / decrease reckless driving.

It was noted that in preparation for this meeting the TRT Chairman had provided a list of correspondence and meetings dated back to 2001. ASA distributed a folder with the meeting notes and other correspondence regarding their concerns about safety at the drags.

There was a brainstorming session held to try and develop new methods to improve visitor safety at impromptu sand drag events in the dunes at all locations and during holidays and non-holiday weekends.

The following is a list of suggestions that were offered during the brainstorming process;

1. Consider both the north and south end drags
2. ** Use radar guns
3. Minimize number of vehicles in drags at any one time
4. Position LE vehicles &/or message boards to limit starting line width
5. Limit flying starts
6. Address cross traffic, spectators exiting the drags
7. **DUI check points in proximity to the drags (before and after at
specific locations)
8. **Continue high visibility of LEOs
9. Outreach via vendors with flyers
10. LEOs patrolling the 50' safety zone
11. **More public education from OHV orgs both on the ground and off-site
12. Utilize the dune patrol
13. Identify demographics to enhance outreach
14. Provide incentives to follow the rules
15.**Use TRT Website and OHV org bulletin boards
16. LEO handouts with citation
17. Utilize the ASA Safe-Duning brochure with warnings by LEOs
18. **Continued use of electronic message boards in close proximity to the drags
19.**Advance (early afternoon) coordination by OHV groups

The group then prioritized the above list of suggestions. Items 2,7,8,11,15,18 and 19 were viewed as high priority (**) opportunities. Limited funding and staffing were cited as the greatest impediment to most of the high priority suggestions.

ASA noted that initial priorities should be established without regard for funding and staffing limitations. ASA agreed that final priorities should not be established until the resources required and available to accomplish the desired tasks are determined. ASA indicated that it would continue to assist in identifying funding sources.

The following is a summarized list of the actions that the group felt were of the highest importance and some of the discussion that followed.

• Law Enforcement use radar guns and should continue to use them at the drags (and other locations in the Dunes, both on and off-highway) to enforce speeding and reckless driving. Law enforcement can use judgment and experience to enforce speeding and reckless driving. The use of radar guns help in the prosecution of the offenders. BLM needs additional radar guns and officer training in order to increase this type of enforcement. Roger Bruckner commented that he would look into potential funding for radar guns and LEO training.
• ASA would like to limit the number of vehicles that can travel down impromptu sand drags to two at a time, and feels that more than two vehicles traveling down the drags increases the level of risk to spectators. BLM can not limit or control starts or the number of people that start at one time. The BLM, however, will take action in the event of an emergency (as they have done in the past) to control the starting area for law enforcement and medical incidents needs.
• ASA and BLM believe that the use of the electronic message board were helpful at the sand drags and will continue to use them more next season.
• ASA and BLM both agreed to elevate the enforcement of drinking and driving, on and off-highway, as part of the alcohol awareness initiative.
• BLM and the ASA agreed that the continued high visibility and presence of law enforcement at the sand drags is vital to maintaining a safe environment.
• ASA and BLM agreed that outreach and informed visitors are key to the law enforcement program in the Dunes. Past efforts need to continue and be increased for next season. ASA has the opportunity to acquire an ad in the Sand Sports Super Show issue of Toy Hauler Magazine. The use of websites, volunteers, pamphlets, flyers, etc. should be continued next season.

Roger Bruckner will continue to lead the process of assessing the suggestions. No specific action was identified for future discussion of a plan for next season.

Thank's for the info Vickie !. Your passion and determination for our sport does not go un-noticed . Hopefully between you and the other ORG's and people that give a damm we duners can prevail and get Glamis back to the people !!!!.

Does anyone else see this as an attempt to tame or shut down the "drags". Part of the attraction of going to the "drags" is you can get up close and personal to the "competitors". I know that this is not a safe way to do things but we partake in a high risk sport, if you want to stay safe don't go to the "drags" or watch from a distance, but do not try to change the way other people want to have fun.

Are the drag's dangerous ?, no doubt Yes. Can the BLM use the drag's and the mayhem that goes along with it against us ?, no doubt yes !. Do you care ?

As far as I am concerned as long as the drag crowd is dragging and doing their thing, that is fewer people in the dunes that my friends and I have to watch out for !.

I'm a little concerned about where this is originating from.

VOR, I understand what you mean. For those who don't know the entire history, and the root of the problem, it could look like the ASA initiated this for no reason. But, for those of us who have been involved since the beginning of this recent mess know why the ASA has been working on safety issues at the dunes.

All of us reading this understand the risks and most are responsible for ourselves and don't need to be watched over. We realize that we could get injured in our sport and make the choice to watch the activity. The problem we have at the dunes, and with most of the issues that have arisen in the past 4 years, have not originated by duners.

The eco-wackos who will use, and abuse, any excuse to paint us, and our sport, with a very broad brush in an ugly way started using saftey issues as a weapon BEFORE the closers were even in effect.

Remember PEER, they made that video slamming us and it had many shots of sand drag activity. Along with the video, they used injury / death stats, along with arrests and officer safety concerns, to try and limit vistitaion at the dunes.

As a result of this campaign, a fact finding tour by BLM officials, most who had never been to the ISDRA before, was taken over P-day and almost resulted in severe restrictions to the dunes. If not for some concerned people who heard about the vists and managed to contact the BLM officials, we would be having a lot more problems then we do now. This all occurred prior to the ASA being formed.

SO, the ASA has a safety program aimed at educating the duners, hoping to increase safety. Part f the safety program is to get the BLM to enforce existing rules to promote safety.

In this current political climate, we do not need to have a rail, jeep, truck, or ATV to go out of control and into a massive crowd who are standing to close. The negative publicity would not help our cause.

Also, the ASA has gained credibility with the BLM, local officials, and politicians with its reasonable approach on the safety issues. This helps our cause when dealing with those officials in charge who have the power to close us down. The ASA has gained respect with the officials.

If anyone has forgotten the past, dredge up the PEER video and watch it. I watch it once or twwice a year to remind me why I volunteer in the fight for dunes access.

Jeff, I respectfully disagree with your perception.

All 1 has to do is browse the ASA site . We have meeting notes of all our public correspondance.We have a document libray. A area support policy. We have had countless Open BOD meetings etc etc etc. Mine and Gerg Gormanns personal cell #'s are available on the site.

In the Early days you and a few others felt that we were not being forthcoming in our dealings. We have spent alot of time and energy getting past that perception.



I am just pointing out facts not trying to start a battle.

Tim your post is pretty accurate.

Our efforts at the Drags are more about being proactive in trying to keep them open than anything else.

Post edited due to obsolete quote

Vicki, You are probaly right . I will edit my post. I meant nothing derrogatory to any other org.

Really just meant to show how the ASA operates.

Thanks Grant... I edited my post accordingly.

I have to agree with Sandemon.
Here are my comments which were posted on ASA's site:

The drags are hardly ever more than 100 feet wide especially towards the end as more people fill in.

With that said they are now going to use radar guns at the drags and ticket for more than 15MPH? So anyone on anything larger than 70cc's will be ticketed unless they craw down the drags.

Limiting the number of people running down the drags to two!? Now it's an organized event.

Who's going to pay for radar guns and training?

How can we trust the LEO's to use "judgment and experience to enforce speeding and reckless driving".
It's a his word against mine kind of deal.

The ASA suggested and supports the above mentioned? Am I reading it wrong?

I have seen a rail going 93 mph over 2 foot whoops 15-20 feet away from the spectators at the drags at Gordon’s Well. I have seen a Jeep going 83 mph 30 feet from the spectators at Gordon's Well sand drags and barley missed a kid who turned if front of him at the end of the drags, the jeep didn't shut down at the end and caught up with the quads in front as they were turning off the drag way.

We all know our sport is dangerous and we accept some danger when we go view the drags. But, what will happen if a member of your family gets run over by an out of control OHV, whether by lack of driver skill, broken part, or impairment? Will you just say, "Oh well, that too bad, but we chose to be there"? Or will you be upset that the operator injured or killed someone in your family and want criminal prosecution and will sue the operator.

I routinely respond to serious motor vehicle wrecks and know just how metal twists from severe impacts and the carnage caused to flesh as a result. I have seen pedestrians hit by fast moving vehicles and the end results. I have seen vehicles flip over obstacles and land behind walls and vehicles.

My point is a 50' safety zone is at least an attempt to mitigate some injuries. I personally think the safety zone should be increased to over 100'.

If a vehicle going 80+ mph looses a tire or breaks a tie rod, it can careen to the side, out of control, and run over many people. The safety zone gives a little buffer in hopes the driver can get the vehicle under control and stopped before hitting anyone. This buffer will also give the spectators a little time to react and flee for cover.

The operator of the vehicle should be responsible enough to decide when it is safe to "show off" the vehicles capabilities. The driver needs to look down the drag area and decide whether there is enough space to run, if not don't go. The result could be a ticket, or it could be much, much worse.

We understand what goes on out there and can appreciate the risks. BUT, a Washington Bureaucrat or politician does not. The eco-wacko groups would pounce on a serious wreck at the sand drags, exaggerate the facts, and present it to Washington officials faster then you would believe. One wreck with many casualties would be the "death nell" for the drags, and maybe for dunes access.

This is not about closing down the drags; it’s about preserving the drags. We all need to encourage people to stay back at the drags or there will be no drags, one way or another.

Tim,
All of that is a perfect world. 50, 100 feet yes all good.
But there is no way people will do that unless there are barriers (sp?) there and that makes them 'organized'. The BLM can't have any organized events without permits out the wazoo!

The ASA is (and has been for a couple years) asking for WAY to many regulations at the drags that eventually the BLM will get sick of hearing it and shut it all down.

Isn't this what the ASA really wants?

Did the ASA members (not board members) vote and agree to let the BOD ask for these suggestions?

More ASA BS (IMO).

nevermind I found it

Mike, you’re entitled to your opinion, even if it’s wrong.

I have spoken to many of the ASA BODs about this issue and I have NEVER heard that abolishing the drags is a goal of the ASA.

The ASA is for continued dunes access at the ISDRA and is against any closures. I can find no advantage for the ASA to want the drags closed down. This would be wrong and would cause the ASA to lose credibility with its members

I can see an advantage to having the drags being administered safely and I can understand why the ASA promotes safety at the dunes.

Do you think it is wrong for the ASA to be safety conscious and encourage safe behavior while operating an OHV? Is it OK for a person to operate an OHV in a reckless manner, endangering many spectators, just to show off? What is your solution to the problem?

No one is proposing stopping the drags, simply requiring a safety zone to be enforced is not shutting anything down. If a person wants to run dangerously fast close to a crowd of people, they can, although they would run the risk of being arrested or cited.

We can prevent this from happening by policing ourselves, instead of having the BLM LEOs do it. We can provide safety brochures, like the ASA has done, and educate those who go watch the drags. If the crowd gets to close, just don't run until they back up. Those of us present at the drags could then drive slowly along the crowd and remind them to stay back.

I have heard that fast runs at Gecko drags have been reduced to a parade due to the crowds anyway. This has effectively shut down the drags, without BLM involvement.

What would be the story written in the paper the next day after a rail going 80+ mph runs into the crowd and harms many people? I'm sure this would cause more closures and restrictions by the BLM due to pressure from the eco-wacko groups and the bureaucrats in Washinton DC.

The ASA is trying to prevent this from happening and keep the drags operating in a safe manner. This is obvious from the ASA's writings, statements, and brochure.

The ASAs actions have prevented the drags from being closed already. With the ASA involved, the BLM has a chance to try the safety education / law enforcement approach to see if there are positive results. Otherwise the BLM could have simply shut the drags down and there is NOTHING we could have done about it, just like the curfews at the hills.

I have faith in my fellow duners that when presented with the issue and the solution, they will comply and stay back in order to watch the drags, especially when the people running refuse to start until its safe.

I still wonder how anyone could argue against reasonable safety precautions.

Just something to think about...At 60 mph, you are covering 88 feet per second, and at 80, it's 117 feet per second. I would be willing to bet that with a 50' buffer zone, and no one in your way, you would not have time to react and get out of the way of a vehicle who suddenly launched out of control in your direction. Add in the various other people, cars, bikes and quads and I think the picture gets even clearer.

I am against closing the daily gathering of people known as "the drags". I'm also 100% against additional "law enforcement" activity and especially radar guns and checkpoints. I feel the only palatable proposition by the various access groups is education..Education of the duners, education of the blm, and education of the general public. Off roading and all of it's various activities, is inherently dangerous. If you are there, you should be willing to accept those risks. I'm afraid however that reality will end up over ruling that simple philosophy.