Here is a link to the minutes of a meeting at the BLM El Centro Field Office on June 21, 2004.
Spectator Safety At Impromptu Sand Drag Events
TRT representatives Glenn Montgomery, Nicole Guilles (via phone), and Jerry Seaver (via phone) attended.
Full Version: Spectator Safety At Impromptu Sand Drag Events
| QUOTE |
Law Enforcement use radar guns and should continue to use them at the drags (and other locations in the Dunes, both on and off-highway) to enforce speeding and reckless driving. Law enforcement can use judgment and experience to enforce speeding and reckless driving. The use of radar guns help in the prosecution of the offenders. BLM needs additional radar guns and officer training in order to increase this type of enforcement. Roger Bruckner commented that he would look into potential funding for radar guns and LEO training. |
UGH
.... now we are being over zealous ... speed traps in the DUNES ...what next? Paved roads up and down Comp ...?
I've written and deleted several responses to these minutes several times. These minutes certainly concern me. I know that the people who are volunteering have the best interest of the dunes in their hearts. But seriously some of the statements seem quite draconian for representatives of the users groups.
I also know ONE serious incident at the drags would be a very bad situation. So, I don't think it's appropriate to completely skewer those who are trying to come up with a solution.
Radar guns? I thought there is a law in california that says that if the revenue generators wish to use radar to write tickets they must first do a "speed survey" where the roadway is monitored, and the speed limit set to the 85th percentile speed. Otherwise, all the radar tickets will be thrown out, if the person so cited points this out. Is Glamis somehow exempt from this because it's federal land?
Two at at time? If someone is trying to "limit" how things are done in this informal confluence of people and their toys...then I would think this now becomes "organized", and wouldn't the various agencies then become liable in the event of a lawsuit? (which is what they are probably most worried about anyway)
dui checkpoints...I don't drink and drive. I don't want my dune time wasted sitting in line at some checkpoint. These leo's need to utilize their superior training and observation skills to only inconvenience law abiding citizens if there is truely probable cause.
I think the representatives of the users groups have the right idea in supporting the educational and publicity options. They should be strongly resisting any further increase in enforcement by the various agencies.
I also know ONE serious incident at the drags would be a very bad situation. So, I don't think it's appropriate to completely skewer those who are trying to come up with a solution.
Radar guns? I thought there is a law in california that says that if the revenue generators wish to use radar to write tickets they must first do a "speed survey" where the roadway is monitored, and the speed limit set to the 85th percentile speed. Otherwise, all the radar tickets will be thrown out, if the person so cited points this out. Is Glamis somehow exempt from this because it's federal land?
Two at at time? If someone is trying to "limit" how things are done in this informal confluence of people and their toys...then I would think this now becomes "organized", and wouldn't the various agencies then become liable in the event of a lawsuit? (which is what they are probably most worried about anyway)
dui checkpoints...I don't drink and drive. I don't want my dune time wasted sitting in line at some checkpoint. These leo's need to utilize their superior training and observation skills to only inconvenience law abiding citizens if there is truely probable cause.
I think the representatives of the users groups have the right idea in supporting the educational and publicity options. They should be strongly resisting any further increase in enforcement by the various agencies.
from what I know, there does have to be monitoring of the speed, you see those things sitting on the side of the road telling you how fast you are going, well within six month a cop will be sitting there with his gun, after the 6 months is up they have to start the process all over again,
I think DUI checkpoints are a good idea, but it would be very difficult to do, if a drunk person sees that he is going into a checkpoint, I am thinking that they would get out of line and head for the dunes, maybe if there were rangers at the drags and the hill specifically looking for drunk drivers they could take care of them one by one.
I like to go to the Gordons drags, but if I can't get a spot near the start, I dont go, I use caution when I go, I will not sit at the end and wait for someone to fly into me while they are trying to control something that is out of control. I have been to MANY drags, I hit every big weekend and go about 16 times a year, so pretty much every one in a season, I have only seen a couple accidents where more than one person was involved, most of the time it is either a quad or bike that crashes at the jump, common sense is what is needed, unfortunately sometimes that is rare.
I think DUI checkpoints are a good idea, but it would be very difficult to do, if a drunk person sees that he is going into a checkpoint, I am thinking that they would get out of line and head for the dunes, maybe if there were rangers at the drags and the hill specifically looking for drunk drivers they could take care of them one by one.
I like to go to the Gordons drags, but if I can't get a spot near the start, I dont go, I use caution when I go, I will not sit at the end and wait for someone to fly into me while they are trying to control something that is out of control. I have been to MANY drags, I hit every big weekend and go about 16 times a year, so pretty much every one in a season, I have only seen a couple accidents where more than one person was involved, most of the time it is either a quad or bike that crashes at the jump, common sense is what is needed, unfortunately sometimes that is rare.
| QUOTE (BeachHead @ Jul 16 2004, 08:26 AM) |
| I think the representatives of the users groups have the right idea in supporting the educational and publicity options. They should be strongly resisting any further increase in enforcement by the various agencies. |
It is clear by these minutes that the actions being sought, for better or worse, are not being sought by the BLM.
Beachhead, we were assured that a DUNERS representative will be at the next meeting of this kind but in the meantime, you should express your concerns with the TRT, who is supposed to be representing all off us, and/or with the ASA leaders if you are one of their members.
Just like with our legislators, we need to let our ISDRA leaders and/or representatives know where we stand. Those who support the actions listed herein need to let their leaders and/or representatives know they support their stance. Conversely, if you do not support the actions listed herein, you need to let your leaders and/or representatives know your displeasure. Our representatives and/or leaders need to work for us, not in spite of us.
Vicki
It's still better than the only solution I've heard offered by a BOD member of another org which was "Close it down".
The ASA, DUNERS, and other user groups didn't create the problems - they're trying to deal with them. The BLM has made it clear on several occasions that something has to be done and we've all seen what kind of solutions they come up with when left to their own devices - "Management by closure".
Here's one of the things that back 4 years ago got a lot of this stuff started:
http://www.americansandassociation.org/doc...lEvaluation.pdf
This is also something that the CBD has taken to congress and other lawmakers (as well as put on the table in court) to try and get everything closed down.
As for checkpoints I said it before but my comments were deleted so I guess I'll have to repeat myself. When the checkpoints were tried everyone (including BLM, ASA leaders, DUNERS leaders and joe duner out in the sand) agreed that they made a big difference and didn't cause any disruption to people actually out there doing what most duners do. What it did disrupt were the groups of underage kids in the back of pickups with kegs who everyone agrees are the cause of most of the problems.
Duners who actually dune never even ran into the checkpoints and only noticed that comp was actually tame that weekend even though it was a big weekend. The checkpoints where on the sandhighways in places that the LEO's knew would be easy picking for DUI and underage and that's what they caught. It's not like you'd suddenly come over a ridge in the dunes and see a badge with a radar gun and a row of barricades.
The ASA, DUNERS, and other user groups didn't create the problems - they're trying to deal with them. The BLM has made it clear on several occasions that something has to be done and we've all seen what kind of solutions they come up with when left to their own devices - "Management by closure".
Here's one of the things that back 4 years ago got a lot of this stuff started:
http://www.americansandassociation.org/doc...lEvaluation.pdf
This is also something that the CBD has taken to congress and other lawmakers (as well as put on the table in court) to try and get everything closed down.
As for checkpoints I said it before but my comments were deleted so I guess I'll have to repeat myself. When the checkpoints were tried everyone (including BLM, ASA leaders, DUNERS leaders and joe duner out in the sand) agreed that they made a big difference and didn't cause any disruption to people actually out there doing what most duners do. What it did disrupt were the groups of underage kids in the back of pickups with kegs who everyone agrees are the cause of most of the problems.
Duners who actually dune never even ran into the checkpoints and only noticed that comp was actually tame that weekend even though it was a big weekend. The checkpoints where on the sandhighways in places that the LEO's knew would be easy picking for DUI and underage and that's what they caught. It's not like you'd suddenly come over a ridge in the dunes and see a badge with a radar gun and a row of barricades.
There are already laws in place to deal with this. The speeding law. The DUI laws.
If you start pushing for "special" laws for specific activities you open a whole can of worms.
If the law is very specific then people will simply move the drags. They've been moved before, they'll move again.
If the law is less specific then it will be used to shut down many other activities like races up Olds, the jumps at the Olds double, hell, I could see action being taken on a group of duners who stop in the middle of the dunes to watch some of their own "show off" at one spot.
I personally have a real problem with any orginization which says that it represents me that is attempting to reduce my riding priveledges in any way.
Enforce the laws on the books. No new laws.
PastorVor
If you start pushing for "special" laws for specific activities you open a whole can of worms.
If the law is very specific then people will simply move the drags. They've been moved before, they'll move again.
If the law is less specific then it will be used to shut down many other activities like races up Olds, the jumps at the Olds double, hell, I could see action being taken on a group of duners who stop in the middle of the dunes to watch some of their own "show off" at one spot.
I personally have a real problem with any orginization which says that it represents me that is attempting to reduce my riding priveledges in any way.
Enforce the laws on the books. No new laws.
PastorVor
Brian, where do you see any new laws being requested? The 15MPH withing 50' rule has been around for years and years. All that's being done is what you said "enforcing exisitng laws. no new laws".
At least the BLM's rules are available in any number of places so people should be able to find them and follow them.
BLM's website.
Kiosks at the dunes.
Flyers handed out at the dunes, SSSS and other events.
ASA's website and GOL
this website
Off-road.com
Not to mention dozens of personal websites that include links to the rules or copies of them.
Wish the same could be said about this BBS but people are still waiting for answers about where the rules can be found so they don't overstep them.
Just because people don't bother to read the rules that are in front of their face and have been for years dosn't mean that when they suddenly get a ticket for breaking one that it's a new rule
At least the BLM's rules are available in any number of places so people should be able to find them and follow them.
BLM's website.
Kiosks at the dunes.
Flyers handed out at the dunes, SSSS and other events.
ASA's website and GOL
this website
Off-road.com
Not to mention dozens of personal websites that include links to the rules or copies of them.
Wish the same could be said about this BBS but people are still waiting for answers about where the rules can be found so they don't overstep them.
Just because people don't bother to read the rules that are in front of their face and have been for years dosn't mean that when they suddenly get a ticket for breaking one that it's a new rule
| QUOTE (jhitesma @ Jul 16 2004, 11:18 AM) |
| It's still better than the only solution I've heard offered by a BOD member of another org which was "Close it down". |
Inaccurate and unfair because it is taken out of context (not to mention outdated). Divisive and unnecessary.
Now I have no choice but to set the record straight and explain that not only wasn't there even a DUNERS at that time much less a board of directors for Tom to speak on behalf of, but that dusty old thread involved a hypothetical discussion.
Jason... please, let's not slip down that slope again. We can't keep fighting each other or we have nothing left for the real dragons.
Vicki
| QUOTE |
| The following is a list of suggestions that were offered during the brainstorming process; 1. Consider both the north and south end drags 2. ** Use radar guns 3. Minimize number of vehicles in drags at any one time 4. Position LE vehicles &/or message boards to limit starting line width 5. Limit flying starts 6. Address cross traffic, spectators exiting the drags 7. **DUI check points in proximity to the drags (before and after at specific locations) 8. **Continue high visibility of LEOs 9. Outreach via vendors with flyers 10. LEOs patrolling the 50\\\' safety zone 11. **More public education from OHV orgs both on the ground and off-site 12. Utilize the dune patrol 13. Identify demographics to enhance outreach 14. Provide incentives to follow the rules 15.**Use TRT Website and OHV org bulletin boards 16. LEO handouts with citation 17. Utilize the ASA Safe-Duning brochure with warnings by LEOs 18. **Continued use of electronic message boards in close proximity to the drags 19.**Advance (early afternoon) coordination by OHV groups **The group then prioritized the above list of suggestions. Items 2,7,8,11,15,18 and 19 were viewed as high priority (**) opportunities. Limited funding and staffing were cited as the greatest impediment to most of the high priority suggestions. |
It is apparant to me that the discussion included discussion of items which would require new laws/rules. Whether those items were suggested by the BLM or by the ASA is not clear, so I was very clear with my statement... "No new laws." If the ASA is not advocating new laws then that is very good.
| QUOTE |
| ASA would like to limit the number of vehicles that can travel down impromptu sand drags to two at a time, and feels that more than two vehicles traveling down the drags increases the level of risk to spectators. BLM can not limit or control starts or the number of people that start at one time. The BLM, however, will take action in the event of an emergency (as they have done in the past) to control the starting area for law enforcement and medical incidents needs. |
This, to me, is a clear instance of advocation of new laws. It is not now illegal to drive/ride beside as many cars/vehicles as you desire. To create an instance where only two vehicles can ride beside each other at one time would require a new rule.
As for contrasting/comparing this website with the legal issues of the BLM... well, let's just say that that's a bit of a reach.
I'm sorry we don't have a website that is up to your standards... I'll try to do better in the future.
Brian
Brian, I haven't seen any "special laws" being sought, although I too raise an eyebrow at the use of radar guns. I question their accuracy and legality but that, I guess, would be for the judge to decide.
Maybe no new laws are being considered, but certainly new tactics.
And that's where we come in as duners. This is the perfect forum for letting our TRT representatives know what we'd like to have done. If we think there should be strong emphasis on "making the sand drags safer," we need to let them know AND we need to give them viable solutions.
On the other hand, if we feel the drags are fine the way they are, we should also let our representatives know that piece of information.
Vicki
Maybe no new laws are being considered, but certainly new tactics.
And that's where we come in as duners. This is the perfect forum for letting our TRT representatives know what we'd like to have done. If we think there should be strong emphasis on "making the sand drags safer," we need to let them know AND we need to give them viable solutions.
On the other hand, if we feel the drags are fine the way they are, we should also let our representatives know that piece of information.
Vicki
So what is the legal action being used to limit the number of vehicles that can "race" at any one time?
You're talking about making a "rule" that says... "No more then two vehicles at a time."
That doesn't take into consideration things like packs of 70's, or families with wife and kids...
And... If you are cruising along, next to your kid... and some guy passes you... thereby making it THREE vehicles... Who would be at fault? Who gets the ticket? and what law has been broken?
I'm just saying that there's something funny with an Off-road orginization working to LIMIT the riding priveledges of it's constituancy. I'm not outright saying that there is any wrong doing here... just saying that my eyes and ears are open and I'm not sure I like what I'm seeing/hearing.
Brian
You're talking about making a "rule" that says... "No more then two vehicles at a time."
That doesn't take into consideration things like packs of 70's, or families with wife and kids...
And... If you are cruising along, next to your kid... and some guy passes you... thereby making it THREE vehicles... Who would be at fault? Who gets the ticket? and what law has been broken?
I'm just saying that there's something funny with an Off-road orginization working to LIMIT the riding priveledges of it's constituancy. I'm not outright saying that there is any wrong doing here... just saying that my eyes and ears are open and I'm not sure I like what I'm seeing/hearing.
Brian
Brian,
Then we can count on seeing you at the ASA open BOD in San Diego on 8/21, right? All 9 board members and other key volunteers will be there, ask away...
Then we can count on seeing you at the ASA open BOD in San Diego on 8/21, right? All 9 board members and other key volunteers will be there, ask away...
| QUOTE (jhitesma @ Jul 16 2004, 12:18 PM) |
| As for checkpoints I said it before but my comments were deleted so I guess I'll have to repeat myself. When the checkpoints were tried everyone (including BLM, ASA leaders, DUNERS leaders and joe duner out in the sand) agreed that they made a big difference and didn't cause any disruption to people actually out there doing what most duners do. What it did disrupt were the groups of underage kids in the back of pickups with kegs who everyone agrees are the cause of most of the problems. |
Jason...I seem to remember this happening last year. But not as a "checkpoint", but rather a closing of the wash road access into olds. It's one thing to me for them to close off a road, which really doesn't mean a whole lot to me out in the middle of the desert. But to detain me, and perform some sort of search or interrogation, without reasonable cause other than "I'm there" in the form of a checkpoint is in my opinion completely contrary to those "inalienable rights" talked about on that old piece of paper stored behind glass back in Washington.
Is my recollection of what happened last year wrong? Was it a closure or a checkpoint?
| QUOTE (The Pastor @ Jul 16 2004, 12:42 PM) |
| I'm just saying that there's something funny with an Off-road orginization working to LIMIT the riding priveledges of it's constituancy. I'm not outright saying that there is any wrong doing here... just saying that my eyes and ears are open and I'm not sure I like what I'm seeing/hearing. |
I agree, and perhaps the most encouraging words I can offer come from the chief LEO for BLM-California, who says NO NEW LAWS!
He was very clear on that
It would also seem the BLM itself is not interested in eliminating or even limiting the drags, but of course they would like to make them safer.
If we have suggestions on how to do that without emphasizing law enforcement or encouraging increased law enforcement or creating new enforcement procedures, we need to speak as loudly and stridently to make our choices known!
Vicki
Brian, the 15MPH within 50ft rule is plenty to enforce two vehicles down the drags already. It's just how they enforce it. As narrow as the Glamis drags get at times even 1 vehicle wouldn't be able to go any faster than 15 down it - with two vehicles having 50 ft on each side between them and the crowd would already be tricky. Add in the width of a 3rd vehicle and suddenly the path has to get even bigger.
If the crowd wants to be as close to the action as possible (which seems to be the case) then they should have no problems creating a situation which will encourage that - meaning leaving enough room for two vehicles to go though at a high rate but not enough room for 4 or 5 abrest.
Beachhead. The checkpoints I was refering to were tried before the comp closure and by all accounts were a major success. Unfortunatly the ICSO after calling them a success turned around and said they were insufficient and pushed for the law enabling the "curfew" instead.
What happened on the road to olds last year was a result of them executing a "curfew" as they call it and not one of the planned checkpoints. The checkpoints haven't been used for about two years now and were as far as I can recall only used on one or two big weekends.
The official term for the "checkpoints" at that time were "Pinch points" and they were tried very sucessfully durring the last few big weekends of 2001. However by halloween 2002 the BLM and ISCO had forgotten about them resulting in another nasty weekend which gave them ICSO what then needed to con the ICBOS into creating the "curfew".
If the crowd wants to be as close to the action as possible (which seems to be the case) then they should have no problems creating a situation which will encourage that - meaning leaving enough room for two vehicles to go though at a high rate but not enough room for 4 or 5 abrest.
Beachhead. The checkpoints I was refering to were tried before the comp closure and by all accounts were a major success. Unfortunatly the ICSO after calling them a success turned around and said they were insufficient and pushed for the law enabling the "curfew" instead.
What happened on the road to olds last year was a result of them executing a "curfew" as they call it and not one of the planned checkpoints. The checkpoints haven't been used for about two years now and were as far as I can recall only used on one or two big weekends.
The official term for the "checkpoints" at that time were "Pinch points" and they were tried very sucessfully durring the last few big weekends of 2001. However by halloween 2002 the BLM and ISCO had forgotten about them resulting in another nasty weekend which gave them ICSO what then needed to con the ICBOS into creating the "curfew".
| QUOTE |
| with two vehicles having 50 ft on each side between them |
When did this become the rule? I never knew I had to have 50 feet between me and any other vehicle?
Some clairification about the "choke points" "curfews" and "closures"...
There was a closure of the Olds road while Olds was still open. The BLM put up a road block and refused entry to anyone. If you wished to enter Olds valley you had to go around. This had the effect of shutting out some duners, but not others.
The BLM have demonstrated that they can (and will) shut down any part of Glamis at their own discression. They have closed Comp... Olds... Olds road... Olds valley... and the Drags at various times in the past.
The Choke Points were very successful...
IMO a simple DUI checkpoint on 78 would solve MANY problems. But, that's a whole different argument!
Brian, you misinterperted what I wrote...perhaps I wasn't clear.
I didn't mean 50 feet between the two vehicles. I ment 50 feet between either vehicle and the crowd.
If the two vehicles are 10' wide and have 5 feet between them then that means a path 125' wide minimum for them to be able to legally race. Personally I'd consider 10' between vehicles to be a little more realistic and that means keeping the lane between the crowd at least 130' wide.
If you then have three cars racing side by side with 5' between them you'd need the lane to be an additional 10' wide - 10' for the vehcile 5' for the space between it and the next vehicle. So you're looking at 140' wide minimum or 150' wide more reasonably.
So what I'm saying is as the crowd closes in and narrows the lane the law already allows for a limit on the number of vehicles that can be racing side by side at one time.
As for the choke points/pinch points/checkpoints. As I said before I'm talking about the ones at the end of 2001 that everyone seemed to agree worked well to stop the problems without inconvienancing those out there obeying the existing laws. The stuff that went on the year after and last year I do not support and never have. Go back and read some of the posts from when that happened - I have been very vocal about the "curfews" being a bad thing since day one even when people like Vicki tried to tell me they're not all that bad and have changed their story repeatedly about who should be blamed for them. (When I originally came out against the BLM due to the "curfew" caused by the ICBOS I was "corrected" by Vicki and others who felt the BLM should not have been blamed. But just last year even on this very BBS Vicki was holding the BLM accountable for the "curfew".)
I didn't mean 50 feet between the two vehicles. I ment 50 feet between either vehicle and the crowd.
If the two vehicles are 10' wide and have 5 feet between them then that means a path 125' wide minimum for them to be able to legally race. Personally I'd consider 10' between vehicles to be a little more realistic and that means keeping the lane between the crowd at least 130' wide.
If you then have three cars racing side by side with 5' between them you'd need the lane to be an additional 10' wide - 10' for the vehcile 5' for the space between it and the next vehicle. So you're looking at 140' wide minimum or 150' wide more reasonably.
So what I'm saying is as the crowd closes in and narrows the lane the law already allows for a limit on the number of vehicles that can be racing side by side at one time.
As for the choke points/pinch points/checkpoints. As I said before I'm talking about the ones at the end of 2001 that everyone seemed to agree worked well to stop the problems without inconvienancing those out there obeying the existing laws. The stuff that went on the year after and last year I do not support and never have. Go back and read some of the posts from when that happened - I have been very vocal about the "curfews" being a bad thing since day one even when people like Vicki tried to tell me they're not all that bad and have changed their story repeatedly about who should be blamed for them. (When I originally came out against the BLM due to the "curfew" caused by the ICBOS I was "corrected" by Vicki and others who felt the BLM should not have been blamed. But just last year even on this very BBS Vicki was holding the BLM accountable for the "curfew".)
It just doesnt end does it? I have been away for weeks now and still it's Vicki this and Vicki that...one person with so much power to influence...it always seems to get back to what Vick said...even if it was 2001...
Hi All,
As a 'brainstorming session' lots of ideas were brought up. Some were discussed more and some were tossed out. Rest assured that through it all, the goal was to avoid anything that would even hint of needing a new law.
The suggestion of limiting the lane to 2 vehicles came from ideas to keep the 50' zone on each side of the drags.
The LEO's at the meeting were very knowledgeable about the use of radar. It has been used previously and they say it is a valuable tool for them. Enforcement of the 15mph rule within 50' of camps/groups is something I've heard many duners say they wanted see.
If you have specific opinions, not only about the drags, but about anything concerning the ISDRA, please contact the TRT and let us know. We want to hear from you. You can email the TRT at TRTemail@aol.com or directly to me at lobuck@adelphia.net
As a 'brainstorming session' lots of ideas were brought up. Some were discussed more and some were tossed out. Rest assured that through it all, the goal was to avoid anything that would even hint of needing a new law.
The suggestion of limiting the lane to 2 vehicles came from ideas to keep the 50' zone on each side of the drags.
The LEO's at the meeting were very knowledgeable about the use of radar. It has been used previously and they say it is a valuable tool for them. Enforcement of the 15mph rule within 50' of camps/groups is something I've heard many duners say they wanted see.
If you have specific opinions, not only about the drags, but about anything concerning the ISDRA, please contact the TRT and let us know. We want to hear from you. You can email the TRT at TRTemail@aol.com or directly to me at lobuck@adelphia.net
| QUOTE |
| The following is a list of suggestions that were offered during the brainstorming process; 1. Consider both the north and south end drags 2. ** Use radar guns 3. Minimize number of vehicles in drags at any one time 4. Position LE vehicles &/or message boards to limit starting line width 5. Limit flying starts 6. Address cross traffic, spectators exiting the drags 7. **DUI check points in proximity to the drags (before and after at specific locations) 8. **Continue high visibility of LEOs 9. Outreach via vendors with flyers 10. LEOs patrolling the 50\\\' safety zone 11. **More public education from OHV orgs both on the ground and off-site 12. Utilize the dune patrol 13. Identify demographics to enhance outreach 14. Provide incentives to follow the rules 15.**Use TRT Website and OHV org bulletin boards 16. LEO handouts with citation 17. Utilize the ASA Safe-Duning brochure with warnings by LEOs 18. **Continued use of electronic message boards in close proximity to the drags 19.**Advance (early afternoon) coordination by OHV groups **The group then prioritized the above list of suggestions. Items 2,7,8,11,15,18 and 19 were viewed as high priority (**) opportunities. Limited funding and staffing were cited as the greatest impediment to most of the high priority suggestions. |
What I find interesting is this is now a huge deal. The effects of this will be felt by thousands and yet the discussion and appearant decisions are being made by a very select few.
Does something need to change? in some cases yes. But looking over this list compiled by a few people, how many are really going to be implemented and at the very least, effective?
1. Consider both the north and south end drags
OK
2. ** Use radar guns
There is no speed limit at the drags. If you use the 50ft rule, can an officer testify that it was 49ft and not 55? Can he testify who th egun was pointed at? Im not a radar gunexpert but as I see it,This has a lot of opportunity for failure.
3. Minimize number of vehicles in drags at any one time
By organizing the impromtue drags?
4. Position LE vehicles &/or message boards to limit starting line width
Possibly effective but a huge waste of recources. But could certainly help.
5. Limit flying starts
uh...how?
6. Address cross traffic, spectators exiting the drags
Again..How?
7. **DUI check points in proximity to the drags (before and after at specific locations)
At first thought, Im OK with this.
8. **Continue high visibility of LEOs
Thats a good one.
9. Outreach via vendors with flyers
See #11
10. LEOs patrolling the 50\\\' safety zone
how many officers would this take? Would they be the same officers as those manning the message board?
11. **More public education from OHV orgs both on the ground and off-site
Education is a huge key to our success.
12. Utilize the dune patrol
????????
13. Identify demographics to enhance outreach
??????????
14. Provide incentives to follow the rules
Really? Little happy face stickers perhaps?
15.**Use TRT Website and OHV org bulletin boards
Part of #11 I would assume.
16. LEO handouts with citation
This would just create more trash on the ground. After Joe Q gets his ticket, does he really want something else to read?
17. Utilize the ASA Safe-Duning brochure with warnings by LEOs
Again, part of #11
18. **Continued use of electronic message boards in close proximity to the drags
Number 11
19.**Advance (early afternoon) coordination by OHV groups
This again making it an organized event. Who wants that responsability?
So far, what I see as options are pinch points/DUI check points or what ever you choose to call them, and education.
Cant wait to see how this plays out...
Happy face stickers..
Gold stars also? That was funny Tom!
As far as #19...I can just see how that could get real messy real fast...someone gets hurt, then it is the OHV groups fault because they "coordinated" it.
Gold stars also? That was funny Tom! As far as #19...I can just see how that could get real messy real fast...someone gets hurt, then it is the OHV groups fault because they "coordinated" it.
Maybe Im wrong on this..But it seems as though it comes back to one simple solution.
Enforce exsiisting law.
Someone is spending a huge amount of time trying to find a solution to a problem without even using exsisting tools. Its like trying to build a fire with sticks when you have matches in your pocket.
The leo's have pretty sufficiant laws to work under, and they have ticket books. Why are we trying fix the drags without using what we have. We could have all these new rules, laws, or whatever, but what makes use think they will be enforced any more that what we allready have?
I just dont get it...
Lets work on the education of the public, the current leo's and work with what we have.
Enough of the feel-good-ism law enforcement.
I seem to recall a statistic but out by BLM a while back that showed that the drags have less arrest and less injuries annually than Olds hill.
Does anyone recall this?
If this is true, why are we so worried about the drags and not the hill?
Is it because this is where the bad guys see us? We are more visible at the drags.
Out of sight out of mind? Not making any claims, just asking the question...
Enforce exsiisting law.
Someone is spending a huge amount of time trying to find a solution to a problem without even using exsisting tools. Its like trying to build a fire with sticks when you have matches in your pocket.
The leo's have pretty sufficiant laws to work under, and they have ticket books. Why are we trying fix the drags without using what we have. We could have all these new rules, laws, or whatever, but what makes use think they will be enforced any more that what we allready have?
I just dont get it...
Lets work on the education of the public, the current leo's and work with what we have.
Enough of the feel-good-ism law enforcement.
I seem to recall a statistic but out by BLM a while back that showed that the drags have less arrest and less injuries annually than Olds hill.
Does anyone recall this?
If this is true, why are we so worried about the drags and not the hill?
Is it because this is where the bad guys see us? We are more visible at the drags.
Out of sight out of mind? Not making any claims, just asking the question...
| QUOTE (tom simrak @ Jul 16 2004, 06:14 PM) |
| It just doesnt end does it? I have been away for weeks now and still it's Vicki this and Vicki that...one person with so much power to influence...it always seems to get back to what Vick said...even if it was 2001... |
Hey Tom, now I can agree with you here...
| QUOTE (SailAway @ Jul 16 2004, 12:20 PM) |
| Now I have no choice but to set the record straight and explain that ,,,, bla bla bla bla.... Vicki |
It never ends...
NO NEW LAWS,,, only enforce those on the books. PERIOD.
Pro-Active or Re-Active,,, your choice.
Educate those at the Drags about the rules and just maybe, they will leave enough room for the races down the middle and avoid the laws and Rangers.
20 years going to the dunes,,, not ONCE pulled over by a LEO...
Only way to make the drags safer and keep the people at the 50 foot rule is to add barriers. And we know the BLM won't do this because then it's organized. Same deal with the two racers at a time rule, organized!
I say leave the drags the way they are and not worry so much about the public image. Just because it so close to the 78 doesn't mean reporters and greens can't find something else to point out and extort for their gain.
There is no 50' rule on public streets either.
I say leave the drags the way they are and not worry so much about the public image. Just because it so close to the 78 doesn't mean reporters and greens can't find something else to point out and extort for their gain.
There is no 50' rule on public streets either.
"Drag races" are between TWO vehicles...
What we have here is a sand PARADE...!!!
No new rules/laws...inforce the existing ones.
Check points work...use them.
Get real cops to man them.
Just got back from a week on a houseboat on Lake Mojave...FUN!!!
Try to keep this discussion at the adult level...(or adultress if you're a broad...!!!)
What we have here is a sand PARADE...!!!
No new rules/laws...inforce the existing ones.
Check points work...use them.
Get real cops to man them.
Just got back from a week on a houseboat on Lake Mojave...FUN!!!
Try to keep this discussion at the adult level...(or adultress if you're a broad...!!!)
Wait... I've GOT IT!!!! The answer to EVERYTHING!!!!
Just build another damn Loop there....! That's what all that money we've been giving the BLM is for, right? It's good and flat right there... a GREAT PLACE for a loop!
Then people will gather at a different place... (I mean, they are impromtu and unorginized, I hardly think any one will bitch about loosing their "drag strip" to a new LOOP!)
Although I am being serious with that suggestion, it does point out one main fact about this whole thing that everyone is missing...
If you build anything... if you start lining the thing with cops... if you start limiting what people can do in any way people will simply go somewhere else!
There are already plans to start up a "Drags" down at the Wash road end of the dunes.
PastorVor
Just build another damn Loop there....! That's what all that money we've been giving the BLM is for, right? It's good and flat right there... a GREAT PLACE for a loop!
Then people will gather at a different place... (I mean, they are impromtu and unorginized, I hardly think any one will bitch about loosing their "drag strip" to a new LOOP!)
Although I am being serious with that suggestion, it does point out one main fact about this whole thing that everyone is missing...
If you build anything... if you start lining the thing with cops... if you start limiting what people can do in any way people will simply go somewhere else!
There are already plans to start up a "Drags" down at the Wash road end of the dunes.
PastorVor
| QUOTE |
| "Drag races" are between TWO vehicles... |
This comment would be appropriate if we were talking about a drag strip.
But we're not. We're talking about a large group of people who gather in one spot to do whatever they wish to do. It is only tradition that causes the spot to be labled "The Drags".
I think it is a mistake to lable the Drags in anyway since whatever they are, they are the result of the people who are attending them and they are what those people wish to participate in.
Lets see if I can come up with a visualization.
Ok, you are in your super zoomy, racey dune buggy and you pull up on a huge group of people who are socializing, and cruising around and generally just hanging out... What is it about this that makes you think that it would be a good idea to launch your buggy at Mach 3 right in between them?
Would it be a good idea to do so while at the bottom of Olds during the day?
The point is that you or I or anyone else for that matter do not define what "The Drags" are. They are a result of the crowd which is there at any one time.
PastorVor
| QUOTE (The Oldtimer @ Jul 19 2004, 08:48 AM) |
| Try to keep this discussion at the adult level... |
oooooops, guess not:
| QUOTE (Sanduners @ Jul 19 2004, 03:49 AM) | ||
|
This quote should have been:
| QUOTE |
| Now I have no choice but to set the record straight and explain that not only wasn't there even a DUNERS at that time much less a board of directors for Tom to speak on behalf of, but that dusty old thread involved a hypothetical discussion. |
Altering my post is an interesting tactic.
Jim, Jason, whoever else... nothing will make this a Vicki issue. What we're discussing here is the future of the drags. It's a Glamis issue.
Let's play nice and get back to work.
Vicki
| QUOTE (The Pastor @ Jul 19 2004, 12:42 PM) |
| There are already plans to start up a "Drags" down at the Wash road end of the dunes. |
Noooo!!!! Please say you are kidding!!! The washes are a terrible place, and should be reserved for low class scum like me...
Leave the hustle and bustle over at the high rent Gecko district, and let the washes be!!But, since we are forced to pay the camping graft to the "man", your idea to make a few new places to camp over there on Gecko sounds like a wonderful one. More spaces over there keeps the crowding out of the good spots..
Well, in all honesty, I'm tired of the 9mile drive to Gecko so I thought we'd come up with something at our end.
PastorVor
PastorVor
I said...with tongue firmly in cheek...
| QUOTE |
| "Drag races" are between TWO vehicles... |
Then Brian sez...he sounds serious!
| QUOTE |
| This comment would be appropriate if we were talking about a drag strip. |
Would "semantics" be the word that applies here? I remember when the sand drags first started. It was from a dead stop between two sand toys...like a drag race is supposed to be. When stuff started breaking, it became a rolling start...and then it has now evolved (regressed is what is has really done...!!!)
to a "ten rows of who knows what going at different speeds in the dust with the crowd squeezing closer together the closer you are to the finish line" race.| QUOTE |
| The point is that you or I or anyone else for that matter do not define what "The Drags" are. They are a result of the crowd which is there at any one time. |
With all due respect, I beg to differ...
Drag racing is a speed contest between two vehicles with the object being to be the first one to the finish line from a standing start. That is how they started at Glamis...that is why they are still called the drags...regardless of what the event in question has evolved into. They race up Olds for the same reasons...but no one calls it the Olds races...
More semantics, I suppose...
Just another way of looking at it...
| QUOTE |
| I mean, they are impromtu and unorginized, I hardly think any one will bitch about loosing their "drag strip" to a new LOOP! |
| QUOTE |
| There are already plans to start up a "Drags" down at the Wash road end of the dunes. |
If there are already plans to do something then it's not "impromptu" anymore. So which is it, are the drags planned or are they impromptu.
There's nothing in the current rules that prevents the drags from taking place - but there are things that keep them from going "too far" and resulting in another situation where officers have bottles thrown at them while the crowd chants "Kill the cops" resulting in the CBD and PEER complaining to congress getting a special delegation from washington out to the dunes with instructions to shut it down if they see that kind of thing happen.
That's history. It's already happened, and it can happen again. If you read the report from the washington team that was called in they defined this as a problem that needed solving. They pinned the cause on the BLM's poor management and lax law enforcement.
The BLM was basically told "get a handle on things or you'll be forced to shut it all down". Not that they're trying to get a handle on things thankfully they're asking for input from user groups instead of just taking wild guesses as to what to do.
None of this is new and none of it should be a surprise to anyone who has been watching the dunes for any length of time. It's been a hot issue with the BLM for at least 5 years now. The report may not state it outright but the drags where were those officers were pelted with bottles while the crowd chanted for them to be killed.
It's not like the ASA said "gee, what kind of thing can we look for to address to give ourselves something to do". The ASA leadership and volunteers are stretched thin enough already I've never heard or seen any ASA volunteer or leader look for something to make an issue out of - the issues are dumped in duners laps and someone has to respond.
If you don't like the suggestions being made....well get invovled and make some of your own! It takes more effort than just complaining about the people who are trying to help solve the problems but it does help solve the problem.
2000 was a popular year for you Jason. I am confused by later years though.
February 21, 2003
April 1, 2002
December 3, 2002
March 26, 2002
February 21, 2003
April 1, 2002
December 3, 2002
March 26, 2002
Ok... As usuall I have to spell out exactly what I meant so that my words do not get intentionally misused and thrown back at me...
| QUOTE |
| There are already plans to start up a "Drags" down at the Wash road end of the dunes. |
There are plans/talk that have happened (I was there and participated) concerning establishing a "place" that is near the Washes that would function similarly to "The Drags". Since we're talking about Glamis such a thing would not simply "happen" but would require a group of people going to one spot many different times and "spreading the word" until the place became known.
I don't really want to get into the "how-to" of it, but it is possible, IMO.
So, what is your point here?
| QUOTE |
| If there are already plans to do something then it's not "impromptu" anymore. So which is it, are the drags planned or are they impromptu. |
Are you denying the impromtu status of "The Drags"?
Are you suggesting that I have the actual power to "Plan" something like that?
On a lighter note...
Oldtimer: I grew up in a town in Texas called Pampa and when I was between the ages of 18 and oh, around 21 or so we had this place that we would go to that was called "The Drag". There was no drag racing. The cop shop was right in the middle of "The Drag" and the whole point of the thing was to cruise around and meet chicks and stuff like that.
All I'm saying is regardless of what you call it, insisting that it is a "Drag race" will not make it so. It is a gathering of people in one spot who are all doing what they desire (within the law). If that group wants to parade back and forth down that "strip" then that is what it is. If they want to race then they will race. There is no instruction booklet that defines "The Drags" as a place to go race your car. It is simply a piece of ground used by people at Glamis for whatever purpose they see fit.
PastorVor
VOR, I'm glad you're not taking me too seriously...I know what you mean, but I just had to had some fun...!!!
You're right...they aren't really drag races. "Sand drags" is just what everyone calls the semi organized exibitions of speed, some stupidity, boobs, and an endless parade of posers!!
You're right...they aren't really drag races. "Sand drags" is just what everyone calls the semi organized exibitions of speed, some stupidity, boobs, and an endless parade of posers!!
... Sorry to belabor the point but this is a bit of a pet peeve of mine.It is in the same vein as people saying that Comp is not about having a party but is about racing up the hill... or people who say that filling a pickup up with a bunch of friends and driving to the hill is not a "valid" form of Glamis recreation.
The point is that it is not up to you or I to define who is or isn't a duner or what is or isn't a "drag". We used to talk about the "real duner" ... or we sometimes classify folks who don't practice duning exactly like we do as "young punks". As long as the law is obeyed everyone has just as much right to practice their own particular form of "duning" as I do. It's a core belief of mine.
And anytime I get a chance to really nail that point home I take it!
(as in this particular sermon!)
And oh, by the way... boobs are illegal...
PastorVor
| QUOTE (The Pastor @ Jul 20 2004, 09:47 AM) |
| And oh, by the way... boobs are illegal... |
| QUOTE (The Pastor @ Jul 20 2004, 09:47 AM) |
| As long as the law is obeyed everyone has just as much right to practice their own particular form of "duning" as I do. |
DITTO
The Preacher pontificates...
"As long as the law is obeyed everyone has just as much right to
practice their own particular form of "duning" as I do."
AMEN, Brother...
Absolutely...this statement should be committed to our collective memory.
Except for the boob part...!!!
"As long as the law is obeyed everyone has just as much right to
practice their own particular form of "duning" as I do."
AMEN, Brother...
Absolutely...this statement should be committed to our collective memory.
Except for the boob part...!!!
I agree as well, I just can't figure out why some people are so against enforcing those laws.
| QUOTE (The Pastor @ Jul 20 2004, 10:47 AM) |
| As long as the law is obeyed everyone has just as much right to practice their own particular form of "duning" as I do. |
I agree. FWIW, I'm not making a personal statement here one way or the other. Just asking a question of all of you for future reference when I am representing dune users as a TRT member.
In the case of the existing 15 MPH with 50' of a camp/group rule as it would apply to "the Drags", who is disobeying the law?
The spectators in the Camp/Group? -or- The operator of the OHV?
Who is most in control of making sure the law is obeyed?
The spectators in the Camp/Group? -or- The operator of the OHV?
The law says no speeding around groups so it is the car who is breaking the law and only the car can slow down, therefore the car is the only one who can make sure the law is obeyed.
| QUOTE |
| As long as the law is obeyed everyone has just as much right to practice their own particular form of "duning" as I do. It's a core belief of mine. |
I agree also.
The thing is, if people would take full responsibility for their actions, none of this would ever be a problem.
If you are stupid enough to put yourself (or a member of your family) in harm's way, and you get hurt, it's your fault. If someone is doing something that is dangerous and doesn't have insurance and they get hurt, chances are a lawsuit will be filed and that's wrong. JMO.
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