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http://www.americansandassociation.org/php...5705&highlight=
Full Version: Asa, Cbd, And Sierra Club Meet
Posted by Grant George on the ASA message board:
Today under the direction of the ASA BOD, Jerry Seaver, Bob Mason, and Vince Brunasso, and I met in Ontario with Daniel Patterson of the CBD and George Barnes of the Sierra Club. Karen Schaumbaugh of PEER was scheduled but could not attend.
I conferred with our attorney, Dave Hubbard and our partner organizations in our current legal actions, ORBA and SDORC, before the meeting.
Mr. Patterson contacted me in early June with the following email:
“Grant—Any interest in trying to work together for long-term balanced dunes management? ASA and the Center could possibly work out an agreement and put the conflict to rest.”
The proposal made by the CBD today was:
1) AMA-sized central closure to be 100% closed to all motorized travel.
2) The northern closure extended all the way to Mammoth Wash. In other words, full closure north of Hwy 78.
3) The 160-acre closure south of I-8 would also become permanent with no vehicles allowed.
4) The 2000-acre closure just outside of Gecko would be eliminated.
5) The small closure south of Patton Valley would be eliminated.
If we agreed to the above, they would swing the OHMVR in favor of funding the ISDRA at previous levels and end all litigation regarding the ISDRA thus saving both sides the expense of continuing the fight.
Parties to the agreement would be PEER, CNPS, Sierra Club, and CBD with a clause that states if any other party took any action contrary to the agreement, they would intervene on our behalf in any ensuing lawsuit.
Agreement reached – none.
Next scheduled meeting ???
Comments welcome.
_________________
GRANT @ FUNCO
Today under the direction of the ASA BOD, Jerry Seaver, Bob Mason, and Vince Brunasso, and I met in Ontario with Daniel Patterson of the CBD and George Barnes of the Sierra Club. Karen Schaumbaugh of PEER was scheduled but could not attend.
I conferred with our attorney, Dave Hubbard and our partner organizations in our current legal actions, ORBA and SDORC, before the meeting.
Mr. Patterson contacted me in early June with the following email:
“Grant—Any interest in trying to work together for long-term balanced dunes management? ASA and the Center could possibly work out an agreement and put the conflict to rest.”
The proposal made by the CBD today was:
1) AMA-sized central closure to be 100% closed to all motorized travel.
2) The northern closure extended all the way to Mammoth Wash. In other words, full closure north of Hwy 78.
3) The 160-acre closure south of I-8 would also become permanent with no vehicles allowed.
4) The 2000-acre closure just outside of Gecko would be eliminated.
5) The small closure south of Patton Valley would be eliminated.
If we agreed to the above, they would swing the OHMVR in favor of funding the ISDRA at previous levels and end all litigation regarding the ISDRA thus saving both sides the expense of continuing the fight.
Parties to the agreement would be PEER, CNPS, Sierra Club, and CBD with a clause that states if any other party took any action contrary to the agreement, they would intervene on our behalf in any ensuing lawsuit.
Agreement reached – none.
Next scheduled meeting ???
Comments welcome.
_________________
GRANT @ FUNCO
Unbelievable.
Talk about your paper tiger. As if the ASA, a private organization, and a non-government agency, would even have the authority to make such a decision!
This was such an empty approach.
But it does show a certain desperation.
Vicki
Talk about your paper tiger. As if the ASA, a private organization, and a non-government agency, would even have the authority to make such a decision!
This was such an empty approach.
But it does show a certain desperation.
Vicki
Talk about a chess game. Not even sure what to think.
NO COMPROMISE!
OK so they agree to the small closure by Gecko and Patton to be re-opened? What ever. 
Last I heard the north of the 78 has been closed for a long time. I'd tell them to bite me. Keep up the fight Grant.
Last I heard the north of the 78 has been closed for a long time. I'd tell them to bite me. Keep up the fight Grant.
| QUOTE (SailAway @ Jul 20 2004, 09:12 PM) |
| As if the ASA, a private organization, and a non-government agency, would even have the authority to make such a decision! Vicki |
Apparently our enemy thinks the ASA has some power, which is a step in the right direction.
| QUOTE |
1) AMA-sized central closure to be 100% closed to all motorized travel. 2) The northern closure extended all the way to Mammoth Wash. In other words, full closure north of Hwy 78. 3) The 160-acre closure south of I-8 would also become permanent with no vehicles allowed. |
NO eff*ING WAY SHOULD WE EVEN CONSIDER THIS AS A LEGITIMATE
OFFER. THEY ARE RUNNING SCARED, CONTINUE THE FIGHT, PERIOD!
THEY KNOW THAT THEIR CLOSURES ARE BOGUS AND ARE ABOUT TO
BE LOST TO OUR BELOVED BUSH!
And by the way, THANK YOU GRANT for bringing this slimy bit of information out from under the rock right away. The arrogance they exhibit by making such an offer turns my stomach, but it's something everyone needs to know.
The next step might just be reporting extortion.
Vicki
The next step might just be reporting extortion.
Vicki
| QUOTE (KingGlamis @ Jul 20 2004, 08:18 PM) |
| Apparently our enemy thinks the ASA has some power, which is a step in the right direction. |
I guess that depends on how the decision plays out.
| QUOTE (QueenGlamis @ Jul 20 2004, 08:16 PM) |
| Last I heard the north of the 78 has been closed for a long time. I'd tell them to bite me. |
You can still dune north of the 78 at Mammoth wash. This is the area they want closed.
| QUOTE (SailAway @ Jul 20 2004, 08:07 PM) |
| The proposal made by the CBD today was: 1) AMA-sized central closure to be 100% closed to all motorized travel. 2) The northern closure extended all the way to Mammoth Wash. In other words, full closure north of Hwy 78. 3) The 160-acre closure south of I-8 would also become permanent with no vehicles allowed. 4) The 2000-acre closure just outside of Gecko would be eliminated. 5) The small closure south of Patton Valley would be eliminated. |
For the record, these closures are part of the original lawsuit which means if a true settlement were to be offered in earnest at least one of the actual defendants in the lawsuit should have been invited.
Of course, getting the backing from a user group would certainly help pursuade the BLM.
This is terrible.
Vicki
Jason,
I have never been to Mammoth wash. So sorry. I have only been going to Glamis for a few years now, and all I know is north of the 78 is a
. Nor have I ever seen a freaking hiker strolling thru the beautiful dunes north of the 78.
I still say no comprimise!!!!
I have never been to Mammoth wash. So sorry. I have only been going to Glamis for a few years now, and all I know is north of the 78 is a
. Nor have I ever seen a freaking hiker strolling thru the beautiful dunes north of the 78. I still say no comprimise!!!!
| QUOTE (SailAway @ Jul 20 2004, 08:07 PM) |
| The proposal made by the CBD today was: 1) AMA-sized central closure to be 100% closed to all motorized travel. 2) The northern closure extended all the way to Mammoth Wash. In other words, full closure north of Hwy 78. 3) The 160-acre closure south of I-8 would also become permanent with no vehicles allowed. 4) The 2000-acre closure just outside of Gecko would be eliminated. 5) The small closure south of Patton Valley would be eliminated. |
The more I think about this, the worse it gets.
We would gain nothing by accepting this offer except an empty promise of possibly more funding (where do they have that power?) and another empty promise of maybe no more law suits.
The only "good" parts of their "offer" are already ours with the RAMP.
We would lose more land, accept an unnecessary closure instead of the AMA, and of course our dignity.
Vicki
I'M BLIND!!!
| QUOTE (QueenGlamis @ Jul 20 2004, 08:43 PM) |
| Jason, I have never been to Mammoth wash. So sorry. I have only been going to Glamis for a few years now, and all I know is north of the 78 is a . Nor have I ever seen a freaking hiker strolling thru the beautiful dunes north of the 78. I still say no comprimise!!!! |
No problem. I didn't mean anything by it. Just passing some info.
| QUOTE (SailAway @ Jul 20 2004, 08:22 PM) |
| And by the way, THANK YOU GRANT for bringing this slimy bit of information out from under the rock right away. The arrogance they exhibit by making such an offer turns my stomach, but it's something everyone needs to know. The next step might just be reporting extortion. Vicki |
Slimy is right!!!
| QUOTE (SailAway @ Jun 3 2004, 03:34 PM) |
Now is the time that "deals" will be coming to the OHV community. They'll be posed to the OHV leaders... phone calls, emails, you name it. We should be talking about what some of those deals may be, so that we can all decide where we stand. That way we can let our leaders know what we want them to do before they're backed into a corner. For instance... what would you want your leaders to say if they were approached with a deal that would eliminate the temporary closures, but would shut the dunes down at dusk so the beetle can be free to "be active on the dune surface for only 10 to 30 minutes an evening for 3 to 4 months"? Vicki |
http://www.glamisdunes.com/invision/index....9&hl=deal&st=50
I guess DP read your post Vicki,,, as only days later Grant receive the email offer???
Or could it be...your also a psychic with a crystal ball...
Or,,, you have sources???
| QUOTE (SailAway @ Jun 8 2004, 08:51 AM) |
| And for the record, inside sources of the Sierra Club say they are trying to extricate themselves from Dano's image and the CBD, due in large part to the CBD's erroneous public statements and extreme stances. I myself was a Sierra Club member and one time and then I found out how their money is spent and just how little really goes to conservation. Vicki |
http://www.glamisdunes.com/invision/index....showtopic=22604
I know,,, I'm taking you out of context again,,, damn, I didn't write this stuff above,,, you did...
But you NEVER did tell me what all that OTHER earlier "activist stuff" was,, you remember,,, mixed in with the ASA stuff you took months to return to the ASA
Could that have been your SC stuff??? 
The CBD approached the ASA as the ASA is the organization fighting IN COURT to keep the dunes open. The BLM will do what a court orders, so the REAL fight for dunes access is in the courts, at least until the ESA law is changed.
I would like to thank the ASA BODs who met with those despicable eco-wackos, who in their arrogance, thought we would even consider to "make a deal" with them.
I am grateful that our BODs could sit through this nauseating experience, face to face, with these "people" and not become sick or violent. I applaud you efforts.
It is interesting to note that these "enviromental" groups are so "worried" about the environment and species protection, but are willing to "negotiate" habitat area. This is just a blatant reminder that these eco-wackos care NOTHING about the enviroment and only care about the power, control, and money that comes from these lawsuits.
I have no doubt that the ASA BODs would never make a agreement with these people. I would rather fight them tooth an nail for the rest of my life than to bow down to their arrogance, even if we eventually lost the dunes. At least we would go down fighting!
This should be a wake up call to ALL OF US, ir-regardless of political or personal differences, to get involved and donate to the ASA for the legal fight. If you have the $$$ send it in, if not, donate your time. We need a decisive victory in policy and in court to send these "people" home with their tail between their legs.
I would like to thank the ASA BODs who met with those despicable eco-wackos, who in their arrogance, thought we would even consider to "make a deal" with them.
I am grateful that our BODs could sit through this nauseating experience, face to face, with these "people" and not become sick or violent. I applaud you efforts.
It is interesting to note that these "enviromental" groups are so "worried" about the environment and species protection, but are willing to "negotiate" habitat area. This is just a blatant reminder that these eco-wackos care NOTHING about the enviroment and only care about the power, control, and money that comes from these lawsuits.
I have no doubt that the ASA BODs would never make a agreement with these people. I would rather fight them tooth an nail for the rest of my life than to bow down to their arrogance, even if we eventually lost the dunes. At least we would go down fighting!
This should be a wake up call to ALL OF US, ir-regardless of political or personal differences, to get involved and donate to the ASA for the legal fight. If you have the $$$ send it in, if not, donate your time. We need a decisive victory in policy and in court to send these "people" home with their tail between their legs.
"The more you lose yourself in something bigger
than yourself, the more energy you will have."
- Norman Vincent Peale
Some tasks are daunting from the onset, perhaps
even enough to scare you away from starting.
You claim to lack the time and resources, and instead
of putting forth the effort, you bury your head
in the sand and let somebody else have a go.
Say a local organization is starting a new campaign
for community service and wants you to play a
lead role. How will you react? Thank them for the
gesture, but decide you wouldn't have enough
time? Why not stand up and be a leader? The more
involved you become in an important project, the
more time you will find to make it a success.
Instead of grumbling about all of the other stuff
you could be doing, you'll find yourself excited
at the prospect of helping the cause. A worthy
reason is a great motivator. Get out there and
make it happen.
http://www.asasand.org
than yourself, the more energy you will have."
- Norman Vincent Peale
Some tasks are daunting from the onset, perhaps
even enough to scare you away from starting.
You claim to lack the time and resources, and instead
of putting forth the effort, you bury your head
in the sand and let somebody else have a go.
Say a local organization is starting a new campaign
for community service and wants you to play a
lead role. How will you react? Thank them for the
gesture, but decide you wouldn't have enough
time? Why not stand up and be a leader? The more
involved you become in an important project, the
more time you will find to make it a success.
Instead of grumbling about all of the other stuff
you could be doing, you'll find yourself excited
at the prospect of helping the cause. A worthy
reason is a great motivator. Get out there and
make it happen.
http://www.asasand.org
| QUOTE |
| You can still dune north of the 78 at Mammoth wash. This is the area they want closed |
Yes you can still dune at mammoth wash. It is 20 miles north from hwy 78. Mammoth wash is the beginning of the the sand dunes and the area of riding is not very big.
| QUOTE (Sanduners @ Jul 21 2004, 03:25 AM) |
| I know,,, I'm taking you out of context again,,, damn, I didn't write this stuff above,,, you did... |
Geez Jim, what the heck are you rambling about? Now even THIS thread, about a meeting between the ASA and the CBD, is a Vicki issue? Holy crow.
And oh yeah, when I was in my early twenties I was a member of the Sierra Club. When I learned what they were really all about, it was the first lesson in my inexperienced life that these "we know what's good for you" organizations aren't always what they seem
Probably actually the first time I started mumbling "watch your leaders." But please, this thread is about a meeting between the American Sand Association and some very unsavory organizations.
Keep your eye on the ball.
Vicki
I slept on this last night...and something is still wrong with this picture. What does CBD have to gain by this proposal? This is obviously some sort of tactical move. I suspect it was designed to do several things. 1) test the mettle of their adversaries; 2) gain some p.r. advantage in a court room in the future.."we tried to solve the problem, but they wouldn't play nice"; 3) buy some time..if we are all caught up negotiating with them, lawsuits are not ticking away; 4) gain some legitimacy that "they" somehow are the spokesman for dune issues and that we must come through them to gain OHMV dollars; 5) waste some gas as they drove their air conditioned suv's to ontario...Any number of reasons could be behind this move.
Their "offer" really didn't seem like much of a compromise on their part to me. I think the OHV population has been more than willing to compromise in the past, but as the population grows, and little by little over the past 30 years, the eco nazi's have taken land a bite at a time, we all see there are only a couple hamburgers left from the whole cow, there isn't much room for compromise anymore. It's also obvious that we as a group are rightfully distrustful of these land use terrorist organizations, and don't hold any false hopes that if we satisfy the CBD, that some other wacko won't rise from the rotten snake feces like danno did.
I think politically, for the sake of the courts and the government agencies that the ASA has made such inroads in, it might be a prudent idea to meet with them again, and present a proposal on our part. And not a smart azzed, "open everything up" one (even though that's what we'd all like to say and have happen!!!) If we want to be taken seriously as responsible citizens by the government, we need to show them we are trying to be good citizens, and consider even the concerns of the ignorant birkenstock crowd. Certainly, a proposal could be drafted that takes into account the true science and actual use patterns of the various "users", with the end result being that we open up more dune area than was there before the latest temporary closures went into effect. This proposal could actually make us look better, because OUR proposal would be made using FACTS, where theirs is made based on faulty data, emotion and ignorance.
I too want to thank all those who have worked so hard to turn the ASA into a force big enough for these sub-humans to be forced to acknowledge and make even a flawed proposal to the real dune enthusiasts. I wonder how many holes in their tounges the ASA representatives had from biting them while listening to the crap flowing from the mouths of the eco nazi's?
Their "offer" really didn't seem like much of a compromise on their part to me. I think the OHV population has been more than willing to compromise in the past, but as the population grows, and little by little over the past 30 years, the eco nazi's have taken land a bite at a time, we all see there are only a couple hamburgers left from the whole cow, there isn't much room for compromise anymore. It's also obvious that we as a group are rightfully distrustful of these land use terrorist organizations, and don't hold any false hopes that if we satisfy the CBD, that some other wacko won't rise from the rotten snake feces like danno did.
I think politically, for the sake of the courts and the government agencies that the ASA has made such inroads in, it might be a prudent idea to meet with them again, and present a proposal on our part. And not a smart azzed, "open everything up" one (even though that's what we'd all like to say and have happen!!!) If we want to be taken seriously as responsible citizens by the government, we need to show them we are trying to be good citizens, and consider even the concerns of the ignorant birkenstock crowd. Certainly, a proposal could be drafted that takes into account the true science and actual use patterns of the various "users", with the end result being that we open up more dune area than was there before the latest temporary closures went into effect. This proposal could actually make us look better, because OUR proposal would be made using FACTS, where theirs is made based on faulty data, emotion and ignorance.
I too want to thank all those who have worked so hard to turn the ASA into a force big enough for these sub-humans to be forced to acknowledge and make even a flawed proposal to the real dune enthusiasts. I wonder how many holes in their tounges the ASA representatives had from biting them while listening to the crap flowing from the mouths of the eco nazi's?
The meeting was between several orgs; ASA, SDORC, ORBA and on the other side of the table was CBD, SC, PEER (who didn't show but were supposed to be there).
"They" offered us nothing except minor tokens.
Re: the ASA BBS thread, Ron Scott (ASA BOD) said going in that the ASA would accept NO COMPROMISES!!
The ASA membership that is posting is also unwilling to accept any compromises and that is as it should be. We can quit this fight, only to have to fight again on another front with another (or the same) opponent. We will have to fight again and again until the ESA is reformed, and that's a dammed fact!
Sign the petition to reform the ESA.
Now, taking something from a post on the ASA BBS, are there any Federal Government employees here? Whoever you are, why don't you all start writing to Karen Sambach (sp?) of PEER (Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility) and let her know that you are a public employee and care about the environment but not the power grab she is promoting. This is a very insidious group, possibly worse than the CBD.
"They" offered us nothing except minor tokens.
Re: the ASA BBS thread, Ron Scott (ASA BOD) said going in that the ASA would accept NO COMPROMISES!!
The ASA membership that is posting is also unwilling to accept any compromises and that is as it should be. We can quit this fight, only to have to fight again on another front with another (or the same) opponent. We will have to fight again and again until the ESA is reformed, and that's a dammed fact!
Sign the petition to reform the ESA.
Now, taking something from a post on the ASA BBS, are there any Federal Government employees here? Whoever you are, why don't you all start writing to Karen Sambach (sp?) of PEER (Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility) and let her know that you are a public employee and care about the environment but not the power grab she is promoting. This is a very insidious group, possibly worse than the CBD.
Why did they seek this meeting? Who knows... delving into the dark corners of those minds could be a sickening experience 
It is clear though that this meeting was not a sincere attempt at settlement or one of the parties to the action that caused those closures would have been involved.
What do they have to gain? Even though the ASA only represents approximately 1% of the duning community, the CBD would spin it that a deal was made with the entire community, just as they have spun the court-ordered settlement as some sort of agreement between the entire community. In other words, we, all of us, would suddenly become part of these "deals" and if compromise is involved (like no OHVs in the AMA and closing everything north of Mammoth Wash), our names would be on the dotted lines.
Compromise is a slippery slope here, and one that we've been sliding down for years. Before even considering it, please read and re-read what we know so far was discussed.
Before we make any deals with the devil, we really need to weigh the value of our souls.
Vicki
It is clear though that this meeting was not a sincere attempt at settlement or one of the parties to the action that caused those closures would have been involved.
What do they have to gain? Even though the ASA only represents approximately 1% of the duning community, the CBD would spin it that a deal was made with the entire community, just as they have spun the court-ordered settlement as some sort of agreement between the entire community. In other words, we, all of us, would suddenly become part of these "deals" and if compromise is involved (like no OHVs in the AMA and closing everything north of Mammoth Wash), our names would be on the dotted lines.
Compromise is a slippery slope here, and one that we've been sliding down for years. Before even considering it, please read and re-read what we know so far was discussed.
Before we make any deals with the devil, we really need to weigh the value of our souls.
Vicki
Vicky
I do not want to engage in a battle of words however I would like some insight to your thinking.
You have stated that the ASA only represents 1% of the duning community and have suggested that any agreement should be endorsed by the “entire community”. If the largest duning organization represents only 1% of the duning community how would you get consensus on any course of action with the other 99% of the silent majority of the “duning community”?
The vast majority of dune users don’t participate in these user forums, as there are only 4704 registered users on this forum and only a handful post with any regularity. Using your calculations the total number of registered users of this forum account for .25% (one quarter of 1%) of the duning community.
As the ASA membership director I can safely say that using email for communication is a very poor way of communication for the majority of our members as people continually change their email addresses and don’t correct them in their profile. 38.2% of the ASA members do not even have an email address listed.
I would very much like to see a way to communicate and educate the majority of the other 99% of the dune users (dune community) that we are not communicating with.
How should we go about this?
Dick Holliday
I do not want to engage in a battle of words however I would like some insight to your thinking.
You have stated that the ASA only represents 1% of the duning community and have suggested that any agreement should be endorsed by the “entire community”. If the largest duning organization represents only 1% of the duning community how would you get consensus on any course of action with the other 99% of the silent majority of the “duning community”?
The vast majority of dune users don’t participate in these user forums, as there are only 4704 registered users on this forum and only a handful post with any regularity. Using your calculations the total number of registered users of this forum account for .25% (one quarter of 1%) of the duning community.
As the ASA membership director I can safely say that using email for communication is a very poor way of communication for the majority of our members as people continually change their email addresses and don’t correct them in their profile. 38.2% of the ASA members do not even have an email address listed.
I would very much like to see a way to communicate and educate the majority of the other 99% of the dune users (dune community) that we are not communicating with.
How should we go about this?
Dick Holliday
Thanks Grant and all BOD'S of the ASA for keeping up the fight...Keep the excellent work.
| QUOTE |
| Compromise is a slippery slope here, and one that we've been sliding down for years. Before even considering it, please read and re-read what we know so far was discussed. |
| QUOTE |
| Ron Scott (ASA BOD) said going in that the ASA would accept NO COMPROMISES!! |
The ASA is not talking compromise. ASA members aren't talking compromise.
This meeting was not "secret" but "private" and the ASA BOD brought it to the duning community immediately afterward. They have informed us of what happened and the results (none). They also then asked for comments.
| QUOTE (Doc @ Jul 21 2004, 08:01 AM) |
| If the largest duning organization represents only 1% of the duning community how would you get consensus on any course of action with the other 99% of the silent majority of the “duning community”? |
I don't know that I'd refer to them as a "silent majority" but more along the lines of an uninformed majority.
Which is just as much the fault of DUNERS as it is the ASA, CORVA, SDORC, BRC, and so many more. The access organizations are working very hard but the general off road community just doesn't seem to know it. Even at the ISDRA, which has a very localized community, after spending 10 minutes asking random questions of random individuals it is very clear that the word just isn't getting out.
And that's just about Glamis issues in general... then when something like THIS comes along it is even more obvious that communication really needs to be beefed up.
As for a consensus, we can't possibly even reach for that until we've reached the public. Unless the public is informed that there are "deals" on the table, they cannot possibly help decide how to respond. And, I have to add, at this point in time it would be just plain wrong of any user group, DUNERS included, to proceed without at least giving some kind of warning to as much of the community as possible.
Our community deserves that much of an effort... we are all so tired of surprises.
These closure groups approaching a user group during the off-season is no accident. If this were November instead of July we'd have a more accessible audience for sure and the closure groups would have to convince a much larger crowd that this is a good deal.
So... we need to bring it to a larger crowd. DUNERS will be dedicating considerable time to getting the word out, using every possible venue. The ASA has a board meeting in August and I imagine this will be a hot topic. The Sand Sports Super Show is fast approaching and certainly those visitors should hear that the CBD is offering this "deal."
I sincerely hope, since this has been dropped in the ASA's lap, that the ASA will not make one step toward this deal until at least after that time or better yet, until after the season has begun in earnest.
Vicki
| QUOTE (Washroad @ Jul 21 2004, 08:44 AM) | ||
The ASA is not talking compromise. ASA members aren't talking compromise. |
Good to hear.
But this "deal" involves the duning community and it is the members of that community that I am referring to when I suggest they think long and hard before accepting or supporting a compromise.
Ron's words that prior to the meeting it was stressed that there would be no compromises are comforting but he was not at the meeting.
I have received calls and emails since last night and one of the very first questions asked is "How did they respond?"
No deals were cut at the meeting. Excellent. But what we need to know is what were the exact responses to the proposals listed.
Vicki
| QUOTE (Washroad @ Jul 21 2004, 06:53 AM) |
| Re: the ASA BBS thread, Ron Scott (ASA BOD) said going in that the ASA would accept NO COMPROMISES!! |
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the asa has already compromised on several issues in the past, irregardless of what their membership voiced an opinion on.
Mike Neschke
| QUOTE (SailAway @ Jul 21 2004, 08:54 AM) |
| So... we need to bring it to a larger crowd. DUNERS will be dedicating considerable time to getting the word out, using every possible venue. Vicki |
First off, in regards to a deal, let me quote our Mr. Brabham in one of his many testimonies.
"Compromise....Why?"
That pretty much sums up my thoughts as well.
Now for my own pet peeve.
Vicki
The statement "will be" and other talk like it get's used by you time and time again. At some point you have to actually do it because the other side is not going to wait until your ready. They're moving forward every single day, with or without our side.
In this case of better and more communication, and bringing it to a "larger crowd" as you say. Well that sounds good and all here on a bbs, but how do you intend to actually do it, and more importantly when do you intend to move beyond the talk and actually do it? Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe you have yet to put out a single newsletter to your own members? If you haven't even accomplished that task, it's very hard to take your statement or critique above seriously.
What your saying about better communication is great, I agree with the need for it and every effort the ASA can muster has been and is being put towards that goal, but talk is cheap, and like I said the other side is not gonna wait for us to suit up and take the field. The game is being played with us or without us right now, not six months from now.
Suggestions are great, but I have a real problem with people who constantly place standards upon others that they themselves cannot and do not even begin to achieve.
Now this is a valid question.
So at what point do you plan to actually do some of the things you say Vicki?
My opinion.
I think all Vicki and the rest of us want is the ASA BOD to NOT make any major decisions like that without as much inoput as possible.
| QUOTE (SinCity @ Jul 21 2004, 09:26 AM) | ||
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the asa has already compromised on several issues in the past, irregardless of what their membership voiced an opinion on. Mike Neschke |
Mike
Unless these so called "compromises" are about the closures I'd like to ask you to start another thread and name em, one by one please. Be specific too. Thanks.
Oh and Mike, while your here maybe you can pop into the MLK Dune Cleanup thread and explain to us again how important those volunteer sign up sheets are if you don't mind, because as of yesterday, according to Dallas Meeks at the El Centro BLM, after repeatedly asking Vicki for them over the past 5 months, they still have yet to received any stats or volunteer sign ups sheets from Vicki in regards to the last MLK cleanup. Without these the report that Dallas submits at the end of this month will show a big zero for volunteer hours from the last MLK cleanup.
How about another thread with your take on the upcoming Dumont fee issue Mike, that would be cool too. Thanks
Man, I am truly one powerful broad. I was not even at the damn meeting and suddenly it's all on my shoulders! Wish I could make that noise Tim Allen used to make on Home Improvement.
Unless the ASA leaders made it very clear yesterday that they speak for only about 1% of the duning community, the next step is in their laps alone. However, it is now up to the duning community (including as much of the other 99% as possible) to get involved in this issue and help guide the ASA in their next step.
I have asked that they not take that next step before there is a chance to involve as much of the community as possible.
As for my "will be," you're right, it's a misstatement. The DUNERS leaders are "already" putting in considerable time on this.
And once again, sorry to have to remind, but this is not a Vicki issue. Please stop trying to turn it into one.
Vicki
Unless the ASA leaders made it very clear yesterday that they speak for only about 1% of the duning community, the next step is in their laps alone. However, it is now up to the duning community (including as much of the other 99% as possible) to get involved in this issue and help guide the ASA in their next step.
I have asked that they not take that next step before there is a chance to involve as much of the community as possible.
As for my "will be," you're right, it's a misstatement. The DUNERS leaders are "already" putting in considerable time on this.
And once again, sorry to have to remind, but this is not a Vicki issue. Please stop trying to turn it into one.
Vicki
| QUOTE (Winston Cup @ Jul 21 2004, 10:25 AM) |
| Oh and Mike, while your here maybe you can pop into the MLK Dune Cleanup thread and explain to us again how important those volunteer sign up sheets are if you don't mind, because as of yesterday, according to Dallas Meeks at the El Centro BLM, after repeatedly asking Vicki for them over the past 5 months, they still have yet to received any stats or volunteer sign ups sheets from Vicki in regards to the last MLK cleanup. Without these the report that Dallas submits at the end of this month will show a big zero for volunteer hours from the last MLK cleanup. |
Sheesh.
Now I am forced to answer your petty and inaccurate attack.
Those numbers and sheets have been sent to the BLM. Twice now, the second time in response to Neil Hamada's request of last week. Where did the first set go? Who the heck knows... obviously not the BLM.
I do not want to heavily moderate here... this is supposed to be open discussion forum. But attacks on other posters, including me, will no longer be tolerated.
Once again, this is NOT ABOUT ME. Focus, focus, focus.
The issue here is a meeting that was held between the ASA and closure groups and the consequences of that meeting.
STAY ON TRACK.
Vicki
Ok, settle down folks.....
A request....
Let's discuss the issue at hand... An OFFER of COMPROMISE from our ENEMY.
An observation: Who CARES who was asked to the meeting? If Mr. Patterson had asked Slappy and I to attend and not asked the ASA should we DECLINE?
The point is that we should be discussing the ISSUE. There are any number of subjects which come to mind based solely on reading just this thread...
Can we form a counter offer which would be equally as insulting to the other side? Something along the lines of ... "Keep the small closures and open the central closure along with the NORTH dunes."
Can we infer anything from the fact that the offer was made at all? Are they truely "on the ropes" or are they positioning themselves? What can we do to counteract that positioning... Like making a statement which clearly defines this to the press as a PR move with absolutely no substance? Can we again, make some sort of counter offer which will remove their ability to claim "We wouldn't negotiate with them."?
Does the fact that PEER didn't show up mean anything?
Lots of stuff to talk about without the personal attacks from all sides.
Please, ignore jabs and stay on subject... this is VERY important.
PastorVor
A request....
Let's discuss the issue at hand... An OFFER of COMPROMISE from our ENEMY.
An observation: Who CARES who was asked to the meeting? If Mr. Patterson had asked Slappy and I to attend and not asked the ASA should we DECLINE?
The point is that we should be discussing the ISSUE. There are any number of subjects which come to mind based solely on reading just this thread...
Can we form a counter offer which would be equally as insulting to the other side? Something along the lines of ... "Keep the small closures and open the central closure along with the NORTH dunes."
Can we infer anything from the fact that the offer was made at all? Are they truely "on the ropes" or are they positioning themselves? What can we do to counteract that positioning... Like making a statement which clearly defines this to the press as a PR move with absolutely no substance? Can we again, make some sort of counter offer which will remove their ability to claim "We wouldn't negotiate with them."?
Does the fact that PEER didn't show up mean anything?
Lots of stuff to talk about without the personal attacks from all sides.
Please, ignore jabs and stay on subject... this is VERY important.
PastorVor
Remember this also,
the ASA wasn't the only pro-access group invited. The whole coalition of ASA/SDORC/ORBA was invited.
the ASA wasn't the only pro-access group invited. The whole coalition of ASA/SDORC/ORBA was invited.
| QUOTE |
| But this "deal" involves the duning community and it is the members of that community that I am referring to when I suggest they think long and hard before accepting or supporting a compromise. |
OK, for the 3rd time in this thread, the ASA has said NO COMPROMISES! !! !
Quit suggesting that they are considering one; they are not.
GOOD GOD!
Can you children share your toys with one another? This petty childish rabling on and personal attacks upon each other is getting very old. As representatives and supposively well informed idividuals in the so called dune community you should start acting like adults.
Can you children share your toys with one another? This petty childish rabling on and personal attacks upon each other is getting very old. As representatives and supposively well informed idividuals in the so called dune community you should start acting like adults.
Crap I got kicked off of the ASA BBS for personal attacks!
Guy,
I am not about to get into a mudslinging battle with you. I made a factual statement, that is all.
You have been around long enough to see the asa BOD making decisions that affect all dune users on a whim, without regard to the lasting effects, I truly hope this is a different scenario, but we will see in the coming months.
As for what Vicki has or hasnt done, I am not her keeper, she is just as aware as you are that the volunteer sheets are important....funny though I dont remember you backing me up when I brought this "important" task up in regards to Mr. Obsessed's clean ups. Hmmm.
As for the fees at Dumont...guess what, they are coming and there isnt a thing ANYONE can do about it. I spent countless hours working on this issue and apparently it wasnt important enough for others to get involved, so BLM wins and I am exhausted.
Bottom line on this issue is that the asa has no authority to agree to a binding compromise. Do I think it is great that there is an arbitration between the two sides...HELL YES! But I also feel that since there is more than one group fighting for Glamis, that ALL groups should have been atleast asked for input.
Oh, SDORC & ORBA are the same thing and ORBA is, for all intrinsic purposes, the asa.
I am not about to get into a mudslinging battle with you. I made a factual statement, that is all.
You have been around long enough to see the asa BOD making decisions that affect all dune users on a whim, without regard to the lasting effects, I truly hope this is a different scenario, but we will see in the coming months.
As for what Vicki has or hasnt done, I am not her keeper, she is just as aware as you are that the volunteer sheets are important....funny though I dont remember you backing me up when I brought this "important" task up in regards to Mr. Obsessed's clean ups. Hmmm.
As for the fees at Dumont...guess what, they are coming and there isnt a thing ANYONE can do about it. I spent countless hours working on this issue and apparently it wasnt important enough for others to get involved, so BLM wins and I am exhausted.
Bottom line on this issue is that the asa has no authority to agree to a binding compromise. Do I think it is great that there is an arbitration between the two sides...HELL YES! But I also feel that since there is more than one group fighting for Glamis, that ALL groups should have been atleast asked for input.
Oh, SDORC & ORBA are the same thing and ORBA is, for all intrinsic purposes, the asa.
I KNOW this is off topic..slightly...BUT....
| QUOTE |
| If Mr. Patterson had asked Slappy and I to attend and not asked the ASA should we DECLINE? |
Vor and Slappy...in the same room as Danny Boy....and NO witnesses????
The mental image that conjours sorta.....well....makes my day......
Police Report #45983BT123:
Slappy:....yes, officer...he fell down...REPEATEDLY....No, sir..we don't know why.....
| QUOTE (L&L Corvairs @ Jul 21 2004, 03:51 PM) | ||
I KNOW this is off topic..slightly...BUT....
Vor and Slappy...in the same room as Danny Boy....and NO witnesses???? The mental image that conjours sorta.....well....makes my day...... Police Report #45983BT123: Slappy:....yes, officer...he fell down...REPEATEDLY....No, sir..we don't know why..... |
LMAO! Thanks, this thread needed that.
That was a good mental image!For the record. I've not seen any ASA BOD claim that they have authority to respond to this offer. Only the note by Grant concerning what occured at the meeting.
As a matter of fact I've not seen any official response to this offer by the ASA. We are merely following tangents to fully discuss the issue and to ascertain peoples opinions.
Hopefully the parties involved will read this discussion (and others) and that will help them to come to some sort of conclusion concerning a response.
Anyway, that's how I'm playing it.
PastorVor
| QUOTE (The Pastor @ Jul 21 2004, 11:01 AM) |
| An observation: Who CARES who was asked to the meeting? If Mr. Patterson had asked Slappy and I to attend and not asked the ASA should we DECLINE? |
Yikes! I missed this... sorry.
I don't think who was versus who was not invited to the meeting is an issue. At least not from the DUNERS camp. The point I was trying to make about who attended the meeting has to do with the logistics of it, not the personalities.
Simply stated: The ASA is not a party to the lawsuits that put those closures in place. Therefore, they do not have the authority to alter the court order that put those closures in place.
In my opinion, any genuine attempt at a settlement would have to include the people involved in the settlement or perhaps it is just a red herring.
Or perhaps the closure groups were just looking for help in bolstering this preposterous offer. The courts would probably be more open to an amended settlement if it is strongly supported by a major user group.
Either way, my concerns in this regard had nothing to do with which user group was invited to this meeting... it just seems like a disengenuous attempt without a true party to the action also being invited.
Vicki
| QUOTE |
| As for the fees at Dumont...guess what, they are coming and there isnt a thing ANYONE can do about it. I spent countless hours working on this issue and apparently it wasnt important enough for others to get involved, so BLM wins and I am exhausted |
Sin City, I would like to know how you can say that no one was intrested in getting invoved as I was the one who asked for a workshop at a FODD meeting and took a vacation day at work to attend the workshop last May I belive, were you there? Mike Aherns started the meeting and Ed W. turned it into a budget meeting instead of the workshop that it was started out to be. You can be exhausted but don't say that no one else was intrested.
Guy and Sin City (and anyone else who is interested)
I fail to see how sign-up sheets or Demo Fee at Dumont fit into this debate?
Focus, people! I know this is an emotional issue... Trust me... Look at me scrambling all over the place... I'm extremely emotionally involved here...
I understand...
I'm just suggesting that we stay on topic on this one. It is far too important to alianate the duners on this one.
PastorVor
I fail to see how sign-up sheets or Demo Fee at Dumont fit into this debate?
Focus, people! I know this is an emotional issue... Trust me... Look at me scrambling all over the place... I'm extremely emotionally involved here...
I understand...
I'm just suggesting that we stay on topic on this one. It is far too important to alianate the duners on this one.
PastorVor
| QUOTE |
| As a matter of fact I've not seen any official response to this offer by the ASA. |
The following is the only response.
| QUOTE |
| Agreement reached – none. Next scheduled meeting ??? Comments welcome. _________________ GRANT @ FUNCO |
| QUOTE (L&L Corvairs @ Jul 21 2004, 03:51 PM) | ||
I KNOW this is off topic..slightly...BUT....
Vor and Slappy...in the same room as Danny Boy....and NO witnesses???? The mental image that conjours sorta.....well....makes my day...... Police Report #45983BT123: Slappy:....yes, officer...he fell down...REPEATEDLY....No, sir..we don't know why..... |
as Slappy shrugs and says, " I'm a stick! I couldn't have kicked his arse. Musta been the whitecoats!"
| QUOTE (The Pastor @ Jul 21 2004, 03:08 PM) |
| As a matter of fact I've not seen any official response to this offer by the ASA. |
But a response should be coming soon.
Yesterday evening, Chuck Mobley (posts as RadRat) asked some questions on the ASA message board:
| QUOTE |
| Boy i'm very disturbed by this information. I have 4 questions i'm sure everyone wants to know. 1. Why did you not agree to have this meeting taped. 2. Why did you not have your lawyer present. 3. Why was this a secret meeting. Why are we just finding out about it after the fact. 4. What did you expect to get out of this meeting. |
and
| QUOTE |
| Vince I understand no agreements where reached. Thank god for that. However, what exactly where your responses to those offers. We all would like to know where the ASA stands on this. Exactly. Truncate that 2.5 hour meeting into something we can sink our teeth into. Help us feel at ease with this. |
In the meantime, I asked that responses come from an ASA board member and preferably one who was present, since they would be the most knowledgeable about the meeting.
The following responses were posted today:
| QUOTE |
| Vicki, I will respond to Chucks questions. But after the last two days off work, (ASA RELATED)it will be later tonite. _________________ GRANT @ FUNCO |
and
| QUOTE | ||
I plan to try to do that as soon as I can. the dune community needs all the facts - that's why we started the ASA, remember. A word of caution: there is nothing I can say that will make everyone feel at ease with all of this. _________________ Vincent J. Brunasso ASA Co-Founder and past president |
If the responses are posted there but not here, I will do some more cutting and pasting
Vicki
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