Please explain in laymans terms what these posts mean to
us, as dune stewards?
How is this going to affect us?
Are we loosing this battle?
Critical Habitat News For Ca, Can someone make sense of this for me? ---- The Pastor
California Perofmance Review Saya Axe The Ohmvr! ---- Crowdog
Pmv Critical Habitat, final rule ---- SailAway
Official Documents, PMV Critical Habitat ---- gman
Full Version: Someone, Pastor, Vikki, Crowdog ?
Doesn't look good......
I thought that they were thinking of opening up some of the closed areas? now I am really confused.
Them folks should be poppin back real soon with some info...SailAway be out and about right now handlin some stuff, but she knows the questions are there...Frog, good questions, Slap be interested too...
Thanks Slappy...
this scares the daylights outta me ....
I would kill me, being a 4th generation duner, to
loose all this...
My kids are getting to that age where it's getting fun
and exciting to go to the dunes ....
this scares the daylights outta me ....
I would kill me, being a 4th generation duner, to
loose all this...
My kids are getting to that age where it's getting fun
and exciting to go to the dunes ....
| QUOTE (Screamin Ian @ Aug 4 2004, 08:09 PM) |
| I thought that they were thinking of opening up some of the closed areas? now I am really confused. |
The closed areas of the dunes are there because of a lawsuit that was filed by three anti-access organizations who claimed the BLM had not done their job in monitoring dune species.
In fact, the BLM had not done that job so a "stipulated settlement" was created that put the closures in place until the job they didn't do got done.
The process of creating the new Recreation Area Management Plan (RAMP) included getting that job done. Now we are waiting for the RAMP to become finalized and the temporary closures will be lifted.
Sort of.
Most of them will be lifted. The large central closure will sort of remain but will become a "permit only" riding area. In other words, access will be restored to all the closures except the large central closure, where access will be restricted.
The critical habitat process and the RAMP process are two different things. This critical habitat designation was not part of the lawsuit that brought those closures.
Vicki
Please explain in laymans terms what these posts mean to
us, as dune stewards?
How is this going to affect us?
Are we loosing this battle?
this scares the daylights outta me ....
It would kill me, being a 4th generation duner, to
loose all this...
My kids are getting to that age where it's getting fun
and exciting to go to the dunes ....
us, as dune stewards?
How is this going to affect us?
Are we loosing this battle?
this scares the daylights outta me ....
It would kill me, being a 4th generation duner, to
loose all this...
My kids are getting to that age where it's getting fun
and exciting to go to the dunes ....
| QUOTE (FROG @ Aug 4 2004, 06:35 PM) |
| Please explain in laymans terms what these posts mean to us, as dune stewards? How is this going to affect us? Are we loosing this battle? |
Are we losing this battle? No, I don't think so... it is constant and shifting but so are we.
And stubborn.
What do these mean to us?
| QUOTE |
| Critical Habitat News For Ca, Can someone make sense of this for me? ---- The Pastor |
This refers to a court ruling that will change the way the Fish & Wildlife (FWS) has to do their job, if it is not appealed. In the past, FWS only designated critical habitat that would maintain the current status of the species. According to this court order, in the future they will have to designate critical habitat that actually promotes the species. It means nothing to us right this very minute, but since the FWS just designated critical habitat for a key dune species, I'm betting that designation will be fought in court and this new ruling will be used and that could mean trouble for us in the future.
| QUOTE |
| California Perofmance Review Saya Axe The Ohmvr! ---- Crowdog |
The Off Highway Motor Vehicle Recreation (OHMVR) is part of California State Parks and Recreation and right now the OHMVR is in charge of collecting the money that is paid when we register our off-road toys and a portion of California's gasoline taxes. AND the OHMVR decides how to spend that money, including expanding off-highway recreation opportunities. Apparently the Governator's performance review is suggesting the OHMVR division is not necessary and its tasks can be handled by the Resources division instead. How does it effect us? I haven't had time to read the whole performance review, but one could guess that without the OHMVR being solely responsible for the OHV income, that OHV income will be absorbed into any number of non-OHV accounts and we'll never have access to that money again for OHV recreation opportunities. Crowdog... does that sound right? Anything to add?
| QUOTE |
| Pmv Critical Habitat, final rule ---- SailAway |
We're not sure how this final rule will effect our dune life yet. All indications are that designating critical habitat is pretty much a waste (even according to the FWS), but it is required under the Endangered Species Act so FWS made the ruling. It could have no effect at all... access is not automatically restricted with critical habitat designations. But there is the concern that the FWS will recommend it.
| QUOTE |
| Official Documents, PMV Critical Habitat ---- gman |
These are links to the same "official documents" that are referenced and linked within the Pmv Critical Habitat, final rule ---- SailAway thread... nothing new to be concerned with.
Vicki
I don't think that losing the OHMVR would mean that OHV registration & gas tax $$$ would go into the big black hole. I just think that instead of this politically driven commission (appointed by Governor (3), Senate Rules Committee (2) and the Speaker of the Assembly (2)), we'd end up with a state agency that has oversight. With the current makeup of the commission (4-3 green), we can't do any worse. ISDRA hasn't received anywhere near the "normal" amount of funding that is has in the past.
The Governor is targeting a whole bunch of other commissions that cost us taxpayers a lot every year. Trying to eliminate waste and trim that big ol' fat budget.
This is all preliminary, but I think it is a good thing.
More reading:
- OHMVR Commission overview
- Green Sticker Program - Roy Denner
- Our Green Sticker Money Held Hostage - Keith Rosewitz
Jon
The Governor is targeting a whole bunch of other commissions that cost us taxpayers a lot every year. Trying to eliminate waste and trim that big ol' fat budget.
This is all preliminary, but I think it is a good thing.
More reading:
- OHMVR Commission overview
- Green Sticker Program - Roy Denner
- Our Green Sticker Money Held Hostage - Keith Rosewitz
Jon
| QUOTE (Crowdog @ Aug 5 2004, 06:11 AM) |
| we can't do any worse. |
Absolutely agree with you there.
But I am still concerned about the money being easier to target... guess we'll really have to keep an eye on where Sacramento goes from here.
Vicki
| QUOTE (SailAway @ Aug 4 2004, 10:06 PM) |
All indications are that designating critical habitat is pretty much a waste (even according to the FWS), but it is required under the Endangered Species Act so FWS made the ruling. |
The ESA requires (with only rare exceptions) the designation of critical habitat for all endangered and threatened species. But in pratice, less than 10% of the nearly 1,200 species listed by the FWS have critical habitat designated. Most often, FWS does not designate critical habitat at all unless forced to under court order.
So back to PMV. Why is FWS doing this? I am hoping that this is their "out". Maybe they truly understand that PMV is not threatened, but due to the politics of this thing, can't delist it right now. They keep it on the list and then define critical habitat that is mostly made up of already closed area (Wilderness north of Hwy 78). It is my understanding that critical habitat designation by itself does not preclude OHV use in that area. Then via the RAMP, they open everything else back up. Wishful thinking? Let's hope not.
This all goes back to politics. The head of the Dept. of the Interior, BLM and FWS are all appointed by the president. I'm sure that there is a lot more going on here than we know. We've also got a chance at real ESA reform (the cause of this mess) most likely during the next administration. Kerry would never sign off on sensible ESA reform. I think Bush will.
Were's that crystal ball at?
Jon
| QUOTE (Crowdog @ Aug 5 2004, 06:34 AM) |
| Most often, FWS does not designate critical habitat at all unless forced to under court order. So back to PMV. Why is FWS doing this? |
Exactly. This critical habitat was designated because the FWS was sued (Center for Biological Diversity, et al v. Norton, No. 01 CV 2101). FWS has stated publicly many times that lawsuits are tying up all of their resources, creating a vicious cycle... no resources to protect or monitor the species, so they get sued for not protecting or monitoring the species, using up even more resources.
And this creates great job security for the anti-access organizations, who don't give a damn that the species are suffering because of their actions.
Vicki
| QUOTE (SailAway @ Aug 5 2004, 06:50 AM) | ||
Exactly. This critical habitat was designated because the FWS was sued (Center for Biological Diversity, et al v. Norton, No. 01 CV 2101). FWS has stated publicly many times that lawsuits are tying up all of their resources, creating a vicious cycle... no resources to protect or monitor the species, so they get sued for not protecting or monitoring the species, using up even more resources. And this creates great job security for the anti-access organizations, who don't give a damn that the species are suffering because of their actions. Vicki |
But did the settlement include designating critical habitat? I didn't think so, but please correct me if I'm wrong.....
| QUOTE (Crowdog @ Aug 5 2004, 07:00 AM) |
| But did the settlement include designating critical habitat? I didn't think so, but please correct me if I'm wrong..... |
Yes, according to the Federal Register Notice:
| QUOTE |
| On November 15, 2001, the Center for Biological Diversity and California Native Plant Society filed a lawsuit in the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of California challenging our determination not to designate critical habitat for eight desert plants, including Astragalus magdalenae var. peirsonii (Center for Biological Diversity et al. v. Norton, No. 01 CV 2101). A second lawsuit also asserting the same challenge was filed on November 21, 2002. . . On July 1, 2002, the court ordered the Service to complete a review of the prudency determination and, if prudent, to finalize critical habitat for the plant on or before Juy 28, 2004. |
For the last couple of years the FWS has stated over and over that they no longer take any action until they are court-ordered to do so.
Vicki
Thanks for clearing this up.
it is all getting REAL OLD FAST!
At what point do we say eff it and ride where we want?
it is all getting REAL OLD FAST!
At what point do we say eff it and ride where we want?
| QUOTE (SailAway @ Aug 5 2004, 07:13 AM) | ||||
Yes, according to the Federal Register Notice:
Vicki |
(I couldn't find the blender emoticon......) 
Thanks for straightening me out.
Jon
That's alot of info.
| QUOTE (Rickredline @ Aug 5 2004, 09:23 AM) |
| That's alot of info. |
It sure is. It's hard to get through it all when it all comes in such a rush.
One bite at a time is the best way
Vicki
Thanks Vicki. As usual ,some how, you find time to do our dirty work. As I posted
in another thread, I appreciate all that you and the other cooperative leaders have
done and are doing to move us all ahead and to get us better access.
Hey Slap,are you proud now ???
THANKS AGAIN.
It's great to see so many people involved... be sure to stay interested...
As for the "This is getting old" stuff... I totally agree...
But in this particular round of "stuff" it's not as big a deal as it seems.
Just normal Governmental things happening at normal governmental times.
The getting rid of the OHMVRA isn't even ISDRA prompted. It's a "money saving" thing that may actually be good for us in the end.
The Critical Habitat (CH) stuff isn't as important as it sounds either. Very worth keeping an eye on... but actually affecting the dunes??? not for a while yet.
Personally, I think the most troublesome piece that has come out lately is the court ruling that said that CH must "promote" species survival. In other words, the species must INCREASE in population. The CH should be designated in such a way as to provide for this. In the past the CH was deisignated to support only those animals that were currently living and to further support only those numbers. This court decision can cause CH's to be prohibitivly large or worse, that they can grow over the years.
Critical Habitat designations are typically only used in court cases to prove one point or another.
"Off-road activity inside the CH has caused the death of this many turtles!"
It's not a fence, nor a "don't ride here" designation.
It's a "scientific study area".
PastorVor
As for the "This is getting old" stuff... I totally agree...
But in this particular round of "stuff" it's not as big a deal as it seems.
Just normal Governmental things happening at normal governmental times.
The getting rid of the OHMVRA isn't even ISDRA prompted. It's a "money saving" thing that may actually be good for us in the end.
The Critical Habitat (CH) stuff isn't as important as it sounds either. Very worth keeping an eye on... but actually affecting the dunes??? not for a while yet.
Personally, I think the most troublesome piece that has come out lately is the court ruling that said that CH must "promote" species survival. In other words, the species must INCREASE in population. The CH should be designated in such a way as to provide for this. In the past the CH was deisignated to support only those animals that were currently living and to further support only those numbers. This court decision can cause CH's to be prohibitivly large or worse, that they can grow over the years.
Critical Habitat designations are typically only used in court cases to prove one point or another.
"Off-road activity inside the CH has caused the death of this many turtles!"
It's not a fence, nor a "don't ride here" designation.
It's a "scientific study area".
PastorVor
I am new here so just let me say thanks for clearing some of this up!
Crowdog knows me from Pirate4x4, my name is Jack and I have been posting Land Use on a couple of other Offroad Boards and I was getting the same questions that are posted here.
Wading through the Report is time consuming and very informative. I can use it to formulate my questions at other Meetings and/or Public Comment periods.
Again, thanks for all of the time that has been put into decifering(sp?) all of this!!
Jack
HFCRA Offroading
Imperial Beach, CA
Crowdog knows me from Pirate4x4, my name is Jack and I have been posting Land Use on a couple of other Offroad Boards and I was getting the same questions that are posted here.
Wading through the Report is time consuming and very informative. I can use it to formulate my questions at other Meetings and/or Public Comment periods.
Again, thanks for all of the time that has been put into decifering(sp?) all of this!!
Jack
HFCRA Offroading
Imperial Beach, CA
| QUOTE (primergray @ Aug 5 2004, 12:12 PM) |
| Crowdog knows me from Pirate4x4 |
Damn. Now my cover is blown
.I guess I will have to move on to another BBS where noone can find me.
Jon
Hey, it's always good to get the boards intermingling!!!
Jon,
No matter where I go I seem to run into you!!
Thanks for the link to this Board!
Jack
No matter where I go I seem to run into you!!
Thanks for the link to this Board!
Jack
What about this" HCP" Habitat conservation plan that I am reading about. Any group can submit one. And I believe the FWS can choose the best one.
So what if us duners come up with our own and submit it to the FWS !.
Maybe a plan to protect the PMV in a more precise method !, like staking off the PMV clusters and not an entire dune area. We all know how easy it is to accidentally ride into the temp closure area because the stakes are so far apart. If we encircled the PMV clusters with more stakes it would make both sides happy
.
Just a thought !. .
So what if us duners come up with our own and submit it to the FWS !.
Maybe a plan to protect the PMV in a more precise method !, like staking off the PMV clusters and not an entire dune area. We all know how easy it is to accidentally ride into the temp closure area because the stakes are so far apart. If we encircled the PMV clusters with more stakes it would make both sides happy
.Just a thought !.
.
| QUOTE (swark @ Aug 5 2004, 02:39 PM) |
| What about this" HCP" Habitat conservation plan that I am reading about. Any group can submit one. And I believe the FWS can choose the best one. So what if us duners come up with our own and submit it to the FWS !. Maybe a plan to protect the PMV in a more precise method !, like staking off the PMV clusters and not an entire dune area. We all know how easy it is to accidentally ride into the temp closure area because the stakes are so far apart. If we encircled the PMV clusters with more stakes it would make both sides happy .Just a thought !. . |
That sounds like an awesome IDEA ....
any takers?
Absolutely. HCP's are sometimes drafted using input from local legislature, user groups, you name it.
According to the Federal Register Notice on the critical habitat ruling, a "draft recovery plan for A. magdalenae var. piersonii is currently in preparation.
Seems to me we need to get in on that action.
Vicki
According to the Federal Register Notice on the critical habitat ruling, a "draft recovery plan for A. magdalenae var. piersonii is currently in preparation.
Seems to me we need to get in on that action.
Vicki
Slap found this post in the McScrappbook submitted by Dunin a long time ago...Somethin like this??
Posted by Dunin--12-1-2000
PROMOTING-PROTECTING-PRESERVING THE MILKVETCH
COLLABORATING TO KEEP THEM OPEN
Mark and identify the Peirsons Milkvetch by using signs, tags, ribbon, and landmarks.
8 ft poles or fence posts embedded in quart or pint sized buckets filled with concrete could make an excellent base sturdy enough to be placed 2 ft down into the sand, marking areas where the milkvetch is located. Signs will be mounted to the poles that provide detailed information about the milkvetch; a brief history, a picture of what it looks like, and how abundant in that particular area. A final statement of ‘PLEASE TREAD LIGHTLY’, or something to that affect.
Each sign will be strategically placed depending on the size of the area. For example: 5 signs per 100 acres. Signs can also be placed in selected areas alerting people of the milkvetch presents. For example: larger signs can be placed on sand highways and trails leading to washes and hills.
Signs can vary in size and theme. Wood, metal, plastic, etc…Signs and posts will have reflector type material for night visual and brightly colored paint for ease of daytime locating.
In areas where the milkvetch is sparse, a selected color of ribbon can be used to mark and identify its location. For example: single plants could be located by tying a colored ribbon to a thin wire and placing the wire next to the plant, with a foot or so of the wire embedded deep in the sand.
EDUCATE AND INFORM THE PEOPLE
Literature can be distributed to the people that provides all the information about the
Peirsons Milkvetch. The pamphlets can provide pictures of what the milkvetch looks like at various times of the year, the history of the plant, and other species that inhabit the Algodones Sand Dunes.
Maps can be provided that give detailed information of areas of least and most population of the plant, such as where ribbons are used instead of signs. These maps can also include various landmarks such as China Wall, Lizard Hill, Oldsmobile Hill, and so on.
Utilize resources such as the Glamis store, Gordons Well store, Crazy Craigs, Boardmanville, and Rangers to distribute the information provided.
Posted by Dunin--12-1-2000
PROMOTING-PROTECTING-PRESERVING THE MILKVETCH
COLLABORATING TO KEEP THEM OPEN
Mark and identify the Peirsons Milkvetch by using signs, tags, ribbon, and landmarks.
8 ft poles or fence posts embedded in quart or pint sized buckets filled with concrete could make an excellent base sturdy enough to be placed 2 ft down into the sand, marking areas where the milkvetch is located. Signs will be mounted to the poles that provide detailed information about the milkvetch; a brief history, a picture of what it looks like, and how abundant in that particular area. A final statement of ‘PLEASE TREAD LIGHTLY’, or something to that affect.
Each sign will be strategically placed depending on the size of the area. For example: 5 signs per 100 acres. Signs can also be placed in selected areas alerting people of the milkvetch presents. For example: larger signs can be placed on sand highways and trails leading to washes and hills.
Signs can vary in size and theme. Wood, metal, plastic, etc…Signs and posts will have reflector type material for night visual and brightly colored paint for ease of daytime locating.
In areas where the milkvetch is sparse, a selected color of ribbon can be used to mark and identify its location. For example: single plants could be located by tying a colored ribbon to a thin wire and placing the wire next to the plant, with a foot or so of the wire embedded deep in the sand.
EDUCATE AND INFORM THE PEOPLE
Literature can be distributed to the people that provides all the information about the
Peirsons Milkvetch. The pamphlets can provide pictures of what the milkvetch looks like at various times of the year, the history of the plant, and other species that inhabit the Algodones Sand Dunes.
Maps can be provided that give detailed information of areas of least and most population of the plant, such as where ribbons are used instead of signs. These maps can also include various landmarks such as China Wall, Lizard Hill, Oldsmobile Hill, and so on.
Utilize resources such as the Glamis store, Gordons Well store, Crazy Craigs, Boardmanville, and Rangers to distribute the information provided.
that is just awesome Slappy ... when do we submit this?
along the same note ...
anyone have friends in HIGH places in FWS or BLM ?
they could "pass" this information along .... ....
and maybe appease the eco-terrorists ... just a thought ...
anyone have friends in HIGH places in FWS or BLM ?
they could "pass" this information along ....
....and maybe appease the eco-terrorists ... just a thought ...
Sounds downright slapptacious Frog, Slap is sure there is somebody who knows some folks...Maybe sail this piece away to them...OOHHH see how sly Slap was wit dat...
Slap will see if he can find Dunin...
Slap will see if he can find Dunin...
| QUOTE (Slappy @ Aug 5 2004, 06:32 PM) |
| Sounds downright slapptacious Frog, Slap is sure there is somebody who knows some folks...Maybe sail this piece away to them...OOHHH see how sly Slap was wit dat... Slap will see if he can find Dunin... |
HMMMMMMMMMM!!! I wonder who SLAPPY knows that could SAIL that through !!!
| QUOTE (Crowdog @ Aug 5 2004, 06:34 AM) |
| Kerry would never sign off on sensible ESA reform. |
Great reason to VOTE FOR BUSH!..........Along with 1,000 other good reasons.
Yeh ! now were talking.
Going on a PMV count with Art Phillips I learned alot about the plant. It is found normally in bowls on the uphill side or bottom of north facing dunes ( well protected from the fierce winds of the desert) . With this in mind it would be easy to stake off that one particular bowl. stakes could be placed 20- 30 ft apart on top where it would be impossible to wander off into the bowl. We could use the same type of stakes that are marking the temporary closures !. Heck we duners could have a " buy a stake " program, you get your name on it !. Sorry Im getting carried away !.
Going on a PMV count with Art Phillips I learned alot about the plant. It is found normally in bowls on the uphill side or bottom of north facing dunes ( well protected from the fierce winds of the desert) . With this in mind it would be easy to stake off that one particular bowl. stakes could be placed 20- 30 ft apart on top where it would be impossible to wander off into the bowl. We could use the same type of stakes that are marking the temporary closures !. Heck we duners could have a " buy a stake " program, you get your name on it !. Sorry Im getting carried away !.
nope.... keep 'em coming .... these are great
| QUOTE (swark @ Aug 6 2004, 08:36 PM) |
| Yeh ! now were talking. Going on a PMV count with Art Phillips I learned alot about the plant. It is found normally in bowls on the uphill side or bottom of north facing dunes ( well protected from the fierce winds of the desert) . With this in mind it would be easy to stake off that one particular bowl. stakes could be placed 20- 30 ft apart on top where it would be impossible to wander off into the bowl. We could use the same type of stakes that are marking the temporary closures !. Heck we duners could have a " buy a stake " program, you get your name on it !. Sorry Im getting carried away !. |
...Love all dat creativity swark, don't hold back...We don't want it closed off, just lettin us know where they be, dats all...Some good info on da signs such as when they bloom, what type of plant, etc...How fun. Some folks may think dat be a restriction, but Slap don't think so...No restrictions, just information...Slap bets dat more Milkvetch would end up growin, cuz Mr. Milkvetch would be in the limelight, and he likes that ...Slap knows, Slap rapped with him a short time ago...He was real heavy with seeds, so he was grumpy 
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