Goon, that was pretty classic going undercover. I thought it was you after the first post, but didn't want to make any accusations. I thought the whole thread was funny. Thanks for keeping it light.

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Alex

Way to go Harv . . . must be a slow day

Yeah, it's a little slow and I couldn't resist. I am now locked out of the ASA site... I requested being locked out to avoid further temptation. And I don't want to give their site any more hits than I have to. Notice though, that I did not personally attack anybody or make any personal references. I was very calm and collected yet everybody still flipped out.
-The Goon-

I don't understand why anyone was getting upset about those posts, I thought they were fine.

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Alex

Alex,
YOU GOT IT!!! That's my point right there, man. It's their way or the highway!
-The Goon

Goon, I have a few questions for ya. This is not a personal attack, so please, answer honestly, not hostilely. My perception is that you have a problem with the ASA BB rules of how strictly they moderate (censor) their board, and with their preaching of things like not breaking any laws, staying away from Comp and the drags, and such. Put yourself in the ASA board members shoes for a minute and tell me how you would change the ASA while still retaining a good image to the public at large (enviros included). My second question involves your opposition to their solicitation of donations. The ASA needs a big bank roll to do what they have done, and what they will do. Can you blame them for asking for money? We're talking about trying to save Glamis, buddy, your Glamis, my Glamis, everyone's Glamis. And the ASA has taken on that task without any compensation whatsoever. Don't believe me? Vince will gladly let you see the finacial books for the ASA. None of the ASA board members gets paid at all. Again, this is not an attack at you, rather a quiz as to your real problems with the ASA. I have a pretty strong voice with the ASA, and if you can give me some convincing arguments that they need to change, then I will relate your comments to them. And please don't tell me you are not going to talk about the ASA anymore, that would be a weak copout.
Doug

[This message has been edited by KingGlamis (edited 05-06-2001).]

Hey Harvey, you cost me $25.00 with that post. LOL
Were going to miss you over there. It gets kind of boring...

OK I'll answer you, Doug, but this is the last time I'm going to "advertise" for them.
I do understand their need for money. In the beginning I gave them some. But, I only got one "call to action" email in the 6 months I was a member. I was under the impression that we would be receiving regular updates via email. I could have been incorrect in that assumption.
I also understand that they must maintain a certain "front" on their board for the public to see. While it is somewhat upsetting at times, I have no complaints with the editing or deleting of posts. The image they put forth is very important, and I understand that.
Now, here is where the problem lies. It's the "let's run these punks out of glamis" attitude. I take that very personally because I am in the "punk" age group and am often assumed to be such. Everyone over at GOL talks about running these punks out of Glamis. I say, let's show 'em how to do it right. Turning your noses up to these "punks" will get you nowhere, trust me. Most of the time, if somebody is doing something stupid at Glamis, it's because they don't know any better. Trying to run these people out will do NO GOOD. They have potential to be on your side yet you insist on turning them against you. I do not understand that attitude and that is what infuriates me the most. It's age discrimination at it's finest.
Doug, please understand that when I say "you" I mean them... I don't mean YOU personally.

One of my other problems with them is their insistance that I AM PART OF THE PROBLEM. I don't run a flag on my two wheeler, so I am a piece of garbage on that site. When EVERYBODY over there follows EVERY RULE in the book, then they can start talking to me about running a flag. Until then, they should mind their own P's and Q's. Those who live in glass houses, shouldn't throw stones. Everybody breaks some rule or another but for some reason they think that the rule that I break is worse than the ones they break. Wrong is wrong and drinking from a bottle in the dunes will get you a ticket just like cruising flagless will.
It seems to me that there is a select group of people that fit in the ASA profile. The average member is 35-55 and makes 50-100k a year. Everybody else is a "punk". That's the vibe I get from GOL and I know I'm not the only one.

-The Goon-

Look at that! Didn't get fired up at all!
"They call me mellow yellooooow"



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There is more than one way to skin a cat, and it looks like the ASA is doing it with a spoon!

I must say that my experience with them has been good and bad. The one grip I had is that I asked a question about riding double and stated I knew it was illegal and I wanted to know the fine amount since I was considering bringing my 8 year old daughter out that rides double with me legally in NV. I got my @ss reamed by about 20 posts that I wouldeven consider it etc. etc. How many of them speed or tow at unsafe speeds. I expained I was planning to go of weekends into the dunes not the drags or up and down comp just a nice slow dune ride and all I wanted to know was the cost for the ticket. That is why I left there and havent posted in a couple of months. Contrary to there belief I feel that I am a respectable member of todays society that has contributed to the ASA.

Doc

I really don't want to get into all this again because I think ALL of us have been over this before and we really all to agree on way more than we give ourselves credit for. But I do like to keep things civil and communicative so I gotta go and open my big mouth here again.

Goon, I agree with you that the "punks" could become a valuable asset. And in fact I've posted many times on GOL (Along with others) about our positive experience talking to people who at first glance may appear to be part of our problem. Of course if there was a strict age sterotype I'd be lumped with you as I'm only 26 and have been going to the dunes for a mere 2 years ... most of that time in just a truck. I've found that talking to people is the best answer, and it seems many others over at GOL agree. Yes there are some who are as closed minded as those who would shut us all out of the dunes but there are also those in the "punk" group who really are nothing but trouble.

As for the whip. Sorry but I just can't support you. If you are willing to stand up for your belifes and fight for them in court if necessary then I may be convinced otherwise. But openly admitting to running from the LEO's when you know you're in the wrong is not the type of activity that helps us keep our rights. Freedom comes at the cost of fighting for it, not from running from those who would take it.

My own personal take on that (not to open this whole can of worms again) is that I fully support whip laws. It's a matter of public safety over personal safety. I support your right to ride without a helmet since that's your own personal safety. But when you ride without a whip you put me in danger as well. I don't want the emotional scars of hitting someone I could have avoided with an extra split second of warning.

Doc, I felt sick when I saw some of the replies to your post. But remember the GOL mesasge board is NOT the ASA. It's provided by the ASA under the ASA's rules (the only rules the ASA makes or enforces) but it's only a very small percentage of the ASA. There are over 20,000 people in the ASA but less than 700 on the message board even counting the plants and spies from the enviros.

Again personally I don't really agree with what you were asking. To me the laws are to be respected - that dosen't meean blind obiedance but it also means don't take them for granted. The fine shouldn't mean anything the fact that you are acting illegally should be enough to prevent you from doing somethign illegal. Unfortunatly big money has twisted our legal system to the point where it's no longer a matter of wether you did somethign illegal or not but rather a matter of can you afford to get away with it. I think this has a lot to do with the moral degredation in this country resulting in things like the punks at Glamis but that's a whole different story for a day when I don't have to get off this board and back to work.

To me what it comes down to is - If you want to ride double and you know places to do so legally then do it there. If you know it's illegal somewhere else don't go there or don't ride double there. If you truely believe that riding double is something you should legally be allowed to do then go ahead and break the law. But stand up for your beliefs and fight it, don't just pay the bill.

The cost of freedom is eternal vigilance and the willingness to fight for that freedom. Nothing is free and freedom is far from cheap. Too many people today take the freedom this country gives us for granted, it's time to stand up and be heard instead of running and complaining to those who agree with you.

Jason,
To me it's just common sense. Think of it like this... if I were to stop and receive a ticket for a flag violation, then go into court to fight it I would lose. I would walk into court and tell them that I don't think that flags do anything positive for two wheelers and that I think they should repeal the law. They would say "That's nice now gimme your 50 bucks." I could keep getting cited and keep fighting it but it is a vicious circle. There is no point. After a while I would walk into the courtroom and it would be like norm from "Cheers"!! Everybody would say GOOOOOON! in unison.

Stand up and be counted only goes so far before it's stand up and get the F outta here before I get another F'n ticket. There are a lot more supporters of the flag law than there are detractors and I know it is a losing battle. That is why I choose to bail. I don't see how sticking around would help my situation at all. There is nothing to fight for. I just don't like flags. Some people just don't like to drink out of cans instead of bottles while in the dunes. Same thing. I just hate it when "they" get to break their laws and I break one and I'm the A-hole. I ain't claiming to be perfect like "them". What I do is wrong and I know it, what "they" do is wrong too but on their scale of "correctness" not running a flag on a two wheeler is FAR worse than riding inebriated, drinking from bottles, burning pallets, or anything else that "they" can get away with. I've said it before and I'll say it again... it's the pot calling the kettle black.
-The Goon-



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There is more than one way to skin a cat, and it looks like the ASA is doing it with a spoon!

Goon, thanks for your replies. I understand your concerns, and actually agree with most of the content of your posts on this issue. It is true some of the ASA members have generalized the younger duners as the problem. You know as well as I do that these generalizations are unfair to many, but also true in many instances. I know and have met many people on both sides of the fence. While it has been my opinion in the past that we should "run out" the punks, which I thought out of anger for the problems I see at Glamis, I do agree that it is better to try to educate the punks rather than kick them out. You must admit though, that this is a hard task. I have tried this many times, some with success, sometimes I almost got in a major fight by just politely asking "punks" to chill out. Surely you can understand that there is no easy answer to this . . . some punks will not be swayed to behave even slightly acceptable. While I'm not Mr. Know-it-all, and not perfect, I do speak from much experience at Glamis. In the 80s, when it was legal, I rode double with my girlfriend on a three wheeler, and did so safely. I have also ridden two-wheelers in the dunes with no flag. I still own three motorcycles, but I only ride them in the desert and mountains, not the dunes, partly because I don't want to run a flag on my bikes. I'm not going to preach to you about running a flag on your bike because I understand. But now you see my situation, I don't ride my bikes at Glamis anymore for this reason. I don't like it, but I accept it as "the right thing to do." In my position, I have no choice. Finally, without endorsing your running from the rangers for not having a flag, I also understand that. There are a whole lot more serious violations going on out there that the rangers should enforce. And your assesment that preachers of the ASA violate other laws while chastising you for no flag is also correct. Where does this bring us? Duners are passionate, and some point fingers without looking in the mirror. While I don't want to sound like I'm preaching here, I know it will sound like it. My suggestion is to not take these arm-chair ASA members so seriously, they are just as human as you are. Hopefully the day will come soon that the ASA will accomplish something we will all be greatfull for. Regardless, please keep an open mind and know that opinions are like . . . well, you know. Peace brother, may we have a beer at Mother G one day.
Doug
ASA supporter to the end . . . with a common sense outlook

[This message has been edited by KingGlamis (edited 05-07-2001).]

Education, Education, Education...

I keep saying this, but it works...

I sent out over 700 emails from using my AOL member search, typing in the keyword "Glamis" and then a city. I didn't care if the profile said "rave parties at Glamis" if it will open my dunes back up I want another number to report ... and who knows, it might just educate someone out there?

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Do It In The DUNES!