With the latest bad news of death in the dunes, and the need to vent out way to identify the cause, and possibly way to prevent it happening i thought about starting this thread


I HOPE THAT THOSE INVOLVED IN RECENT TRAGIDIES AVOID THIS THREAD

This thread is not to give venue to condolences, or individual attracts, but rather to frankly discuses tragic situation with less emotional bias

That's a great thought... but... I don't believe this subject can be discussed without
a whole lot of emotion. .

I agree with SB.

But if you look around, the attitude and carelessness is just not out in the dunes. I just recently bought a street bike (last summer) and began riding. People just do not care about anyone but themselves. I've even had soccer moms in their SUVs look me straight in the eyes and take the lane I'm in...like it or not.

I'm 35 and really hope that I'm not just turning into a bitter "back in the day" type, but I have lived in San Diego for the better part of the last 16 years. So Cal as a whole has changed so much and sorry to say, I don't see them getting any better. I intervene when and where I see an opportunity to actually make a difference or when my lack of intervention could cause harm to my family and friends.

Wish I had a better answer or philosophy to post.

Talk is cheep, and tragic situations always inspire rash talk, But perhaps we can catch some good from tragedy in finding new ways to prevent it

LAWS, LAWS LAWS, that’s the first reaction, more laws, more restrictions, more loss of personal freedoms. But seldom will this cure the problem, as there are plenty of laws right now:

Don't drink and drive
Don't speed next to camp
Don't ride without a helmet
Don't ride without a flag
Don't ride doubles

Are some of these more serious than others, yes
Are all of these capable in causing a tragedy, yes

More laws are not the answer, a new public perception is

We all know, or should know, that we place ourselves and our families at risk when we go to the dunes, but we place those we love in the same risk when we let them pursue any physical activity, or sport.

We all know it is wrong to drink and drive, but most do to some degree or another, justifying it as only one, or it was an hour ago. but in a blink of an eye, things happens and now that one beer, an hour and half ago will haunt you for the rest of your life.

Hopefully this will help advert another tragedy

You're right Bob, what is needed is more common sense.

And you're also right about drinking impairing one's reactions and judgement, I'm sure even one drink at a normal pace slows everyone down to an extent, probably some more than others.

I just hope we've all learned something and it doesn't take any more tragedies for us to all start using more common sense.

slow it down next to camps esp in narrow areas,other people,kids,etc.this weekend we camped at pad 2 most people that drove by at least 90percent were respectful but some idiots camping about a hundred yards thought it was a good spot to drag race their quads and bikes along camp theirs was a start and another camp up from us the finish then turn around and do it again for about 15minutes.I had my 3 yr old out playing in the sand in front had to stand next to him as i gave the kids the evil look (their dad was even watching and participating here and there)I finally had enough when the dad was in the golf cart nearby i yelled at him he came up and said pardon me(as in do you have a problem)I told him yes and the sand drags are that way"we were just there was his response" i told him i have my son out here there are other kids nearby if you want to race then go over the dune told him it is was very inconsiderate to us and others close by etc he just shruged and drove off but they did stop i was very close to going to his camp but the rest of our guys were at the drags it was just me,wife,son and friends wife and i really wasnt up for an unfair fight walkin to someones camp to inform them but enough was enough and he came close by I know if i went to the kids racing i am sure there camp would have raged towards me.others around were pissed too.
Kids tracks my friend almost went end over end on one at night time we werent going fast but when you hit them unexpected you get caught off guard.(keep them with in the tape)
People racing across olds not looking!!!!!

A wise old man once quoted

well i just turned 30 last week, i can see a differance in society now than when i was 20. i think today people are very inconsiderate to others, show no respect to anyone, want someone else to do everything for them and accept no blame for their wrongs. they also want to control how everyone else lives their lives. why this has come about i dont know, this is just my perception of society today. am i guilty of doing this same stuff? hell yes, but you can only take it for so long till you are forced to push back.


LAWS? i dont think more laws are the answer. i have a feeling many people are feeling overburdened more and more with more laws and restrictions on what you can and cant do. maybe this has something to do with people's attitudes these days of i dont give an eff. i dont know im just rambling thoughts like this through my head trying to come up with somthing.

"You can't legislate "common sense"".....but you can jail stupidity.

the problem with most people out there is they have no respect for others. Watch me , see how stupid I am !!!!!!!! A couple trips back one of our rails had a problem. He was in a small bowl. I parked my car on the top edge where anyone could see it. These three fools came within 20 feet of my car and jump the burm that I was parked on. Not knowing are seeing what was on the other side. I don't care where you park or stop in the dunes. They have the whole desert to ride and they have to come by as close as they can.
That same weekend my freind was going over to vendor row from wash7. Inbetween 3&4 as he was going along through the bushy area out of no where came this fool on a 2 wheeler bam hit him in the side. By 2 inches missed the front wheel hitting his grandaughter in the back seat. It was right next to the fools camp. Gladly he was the only one hurt.
Last trip one of our quads broke down, we where taken it easy towing him back comming through vender flats, this idot on a 2 wheeler had to come flying by us roosting everyone including the wife and 2 kids in the buggy towing the quad.
One afternoon last trip a kid 15 years of age was almost hit and killed by this fool in a sand rail that thought he had to show out and drive 60+ through the camps.
I could go on and on on the close calls I've seen myself, but there is no point.
It all comes down to being respectful of others and being smart witch a lot of the people out there are not smart. It don't take long to see where the problems are and how they could be made better. The sad thing is , there will be more trips turned into tradgity . There are more deaths and accidents that could be avoided if people would use common sense if they had any.
This kind of post shouldn't even have to be discussed , but you have those that are too selfish and cares for no one but their self. SLOW DOWN CAMP RACERS, THE NEXT ONE GETS KILLED MAYBE YOURSELF OR SOMEONE YOU DO CARE FOR!!!
CAMP RACERS AND THOSE IDOITS THAT DRIVE TOO CLOSE TO YOU.

I hate to say this, and I will probably get a few really 'colorful' replies, but...The fact remains, IMO that, Glamis, or the dunes in general, is a dangerous place to be, people go nuts out there, whether they have been drinking or not...My goodness, look at Competition Hill, it is like mayhem going on there...and all over the dunes there are blatant displays of a whole lot of reckless speeding, people thinking they are invincible, drinking and riding, unsupervised kids riding vehicles, and you name it, if it is dangerous, it's happening in Glamis...It reminds me of the madness that goes on in Parker, and other places on the C.R....what is it about places like these that make people want to go 'balls out' or...basically have no fear? Regardless of who's at fault, in the myriad of accidents in the dunes, the fact remains that they are accidents...that frequently result in the loss of a life...if not more than one...EVERY single person who goes out there, should always be aware that one wrong move, can send them to their grave...in a split second...Everyone should have respect for the danger that exists there...the drinker who drive the vehicles, the kids who are riding the vehicles, the parents who take kids there, everyone who goes there!!! Because, too many people die in that sand every year...I personally will never be able to even go there again. Because I am a chicken...but if I did go there, I would be aware that any given moment could be my last, and I would respect the situation for what it really was...And I would watch my back, and watch my kids like a hawk...although, my kids ont be riding anything like that until they are 'grown up' enough to handle it! Heh, from what I have seen, some of the adults apparently aren't even old enough to handle it!

Hey Trixmix, I don't know who you went with or under what circumstances, but,
we are all aware that it is a dangerous sport... it's what we do it for.. the rush.

I personally go with 6 families and we all do our very best to teach and to be safe
on every ride. We don't fly out of or into camp and we stay in a tight group on our
rides.

We love what we do. It's not for everyone and it surely isn't for the faint at heart.

It's to bad that you had a bad experience, Glamis is a wonderful place to be and
be with your family...

"LIFE IS SHORT... LIVE IT"



Do your kids not skate or skateboard or snow board or wake board or bicycle or
knee board or boogie board or surf or do anything in outdoor sports .

Hi everyone, I am new to Glamis. Since 11/2004 I enjoy reading your posts it helps me learn. Thanks stay safe out there \"/

I've watched some people raise safety issues about having the high horse power long travel rails out at G, only to be shouted down by the "it's a free country", "you're just jealous" crowd.

Do people fly down the sand across from Gecko on the edge of the sand highway, sure they do, it's one of the places you can air those things out in front of the sand fans. Is it safe? Not even close. I myself suspect that some people lay out big bucks for those sand cars and really only get their money's worth by showing them off like that. I'm sure some people buy these cars because their driving skills are so honed to the point of perfection that anything less than this kind of machine just isn't really worth the trip, but I think there's a big crowd too that just wants to look cool throwing a big roost with their foot stuck in it and of course an audience is necessary for that. If something goes wrong, well then there's a great wailing and gnashing of teeth, but time goes by and sooner or later this crowd's back at it.

As far as Southern Californians go, these are the same people who slow down to 35 on the freeway when it rains a bit.

Not many of these same people would drive a 500 HP car as fast as they could down a paved street that had lots of dips, rises and and objects obscuring their view with other streets crossing their path with no stop signs, street lights or speed limits and knowing there were lots of other people around doing the same thing. Most of these people don't even consider crossing the double yellow line to pass. But for some reason, in the sand, it's all okay. Somewhere there is a serious breakdown of logic in this.

I am off topic here but I gotta say Beachhead that I was once playing a videogame and kept getting killed, so I took a break and had a couple beers.(the neighbor stopped by) and when I got back to it I was kicking hard core butt on this game....

drinking is not the problem in Glamis...
the drinking has been going on for decades...
what has changed is speed...
and the ability of these new cars to just fly through the whoops, etc.
back in the late 80's nobody had a turboed ls-1 with 19 feet of travel, running King coil over dual compression triple rebound..blah-blah...

everyone had a "slow down unless you want the crap jarred outta yourself" buggy...
and that is the difference...
everything now is too convenient..electric start, etc..
and when that happens...viola...here we are...
and if you own a boat..you understand this also...kinda like what happened when "Sea-doo's" came out....

I just had to post this thought:


It's not the machinery that makes people idiots, it's the people who are idiots.


Saying that long travel, hi-performance machines are what's behind the increase in accidents, careless drivers, or just plain ignorant a-holes; is a short-nosed view.

Fromt this board, other off-road oriented boards, and many a camp fire discussion; we've all noted the increase in the popularity of the crowd that doesn't know or doesn't care.

The first group, the "I didn't know" can be educated, reminded, and brought along to become responsible duners. But that takes an effort on ALL OF US. Which means being neighborly, talking about rules, regualtions, responsibilities, and being adult enough to be polite and admit when you're wrong, and not to take offense at someone coming over and saying "Hi Dude. Nice jump/car there, but it's a liitle fast/close to camp. Would you mind slowing dow/wearing your helmet/watching your kids...etc"

Too often...egos, testoserone, and the occasional 'too many cold ones' get in the way of safety and neighborly exhange of ideas and concerns.

The second group, the "I don't care crowd"; are the ones that are the hardest. Sometimes they're young, but not always. These folks also need the diplomatic approach, if it doesn't work; well, there is the contact the Ranger/Sherrif approach, but this sometimes backfires. What is important is to continue to make a mature and polite effort to educate them.

This is what ALL OF US need to do, ALL OF THE TIME. Not just when it's convienent, it annoys our camp, it endangered us or we are bigger than them. If we see it happening, then we have a responsibility to the safety of everyone out there and the enjoyment of the dunes by all, to make an effort to educate the person(s) who making a mistake.

Everytime someone chooses to 'ignore' or 'turn their head'; this just adds to the rise in accidents, carelessness, bad attitudes; or points that the CBD can make against us. True, sometimes making the approach can be a risk in itself; this is why diplomacy and politeness works hand in hand.

How does that saying go: Respect the rights of others, respect the privilege to ride, respect the dunes.

"Saying that long travel, hi-performance machines are what's behind the increase in accidents, careless drivers, or just plain ignorant a-holes; is a short-nosed view."

Well, you could go for some facts. Look back for a period of time at accidents/fatalities involving sand rails and see how many were long travels. I could be wrong in my presumption, but I wouldn't know where to get those stats.

Long travels are growing in numbers, but I can tell you that actually out in the dunes I myself run across many more old skool rails. I don't think you can say there are more accidents involving long travels because there are more long travels as a part of all rails. The only time I really see long travels is tearing a** along the relatively smoother sections of G, which coincidentally happens to be near the camps and near Gecko, or of course sunning themselves at Olds.

So get real about it, long travel doing 60, 70, 80 vs. anything else, the long travel wins hands down in a big way.

And the next time somebody's doing 70 in the sand across from Gecko, ripping the tires and throwing long roosts, like you see them doing all day long, I'm sure I'll see a long travel supporter trotting after them saying, "slow down, it's not safe".

Nice thought, but not reality.

Great post Desertdogs!


And everyone else, thanks for not 'flaming' me when you had every right to...
I come in like a total stranger to your boards, and start spouting off all kinds of negative about Glamis, and off roading and how dangerous I feel it is out there...and not only that, I obviously have pretty strong feelings about it. And no one got angry and told me off. Although it is a place you all love, you still dont get defensive, when someone comes in with a different opinion, or basically when someone comes in here talking crap. I have to respect you people for that...God knows I have been on other forums that weren't even directly subject related to the entire board, like this one is...and gotten worse 'flames' back on my posts...Everyone here has been pretty civil. I appreciate that. And, the fact that I can speak my mind here even though it is pretty much against what you all believe in, and yet no one is criticizing my viewpoint, that is a really cool thing!!!

I didn't really get the idea that you were anti-offroading, just that you thought G was too dangerous for you to enjoy yourself. No harm, no foul there, it is dangerous.

I know plenty of people who won't go on the busy weekends. Each to his or her own.

Trixmix, Have you thought about going to any of the other dune areas. I see by your profile that you camp at Cachuma from there it is about an hour or so up to Oceano (Pismo) Dunes. Also on OFF weekends Dumont Dunes is not as "crazy" as some parts of Glamis can get. Don't give up on duneing so quickly as some people that you would not believe did not like this sport at first.

If you do a google search for Dumont Dunes there are several sites about Dumont and the same for Oceano Dunes.

I just want to step in here for a second.

Trixmix, it's obvious that Glamis just isn't your cup of tea... and that's perfectly okay.

But I am a little concerned with phrases like “less chaotic” because of what it implies.

The fact is, whether something is more or less scary, difficult, challenging, chaotic, etc., is purely subjective to that person.

Let’s talk about restaurants and babies. There are times I really don’t want to share my meal with a crying baby. There are other times it doesn’t bother me at all. During my less patient moments, even one baby is too many. Other times, give me a room full of them. See what I mean?

Some people actually go to Glamis and love the crowds. No kidding. Some people go for the solitude. Some people go for the speed and excitement, other people go for the beauty. And some people go for it all.

One of the really terrific things about Glamis is that there is something for everyone. Perhaps you will never see it that way, never wishing to return… which is fine (that’s how I feel about ski resorts). Can I enjoy myself at one? Sure. Would it be my first choice? No. Are there things I would like more or less about it? Maybe some things that would draw it to me more or less? Who knows. But just because I've tried it and didn't like it doesn't make it more or less worthy and definitely should not make ski resorts more prone to closures.

There are so many choices for recreation out there that none of us ever “has” to do any one particular thing.

Give me Glamis sand over just about anything though

Vicki

What she said.......X a Gazillion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have been going out there for around 28 years now. I have seen a lot of changes. I would say that the biggest change happened about 8 years ago or so when the videos (Crusty Demons of Dirt, etc..) started showing people at Glamis partying, jumping, driving like assholes and there was no law enforcement around. Those video’s made it cool to go there and not give a shit about the place and it is still is the same way. These people are very uneducated about the dunes. I know by reading this board that it has enlighten me a lot on different safety issues and it has been a great tool for me to use when I bring new people out and I teach them the proper way to act in the dunes. So I think the best way to help in this problem is education. People just don’t know what is right and wrong….It’s a free for all out there. What about passing out fliers with some info. on how to act when they pull in or passing them out at the big gathering spots?

out in the dunes

ahhh,yes, thats my kind of sand...

airkuld...not to poke fun at ya, but again, you are taking a shot at the long-travel buggies, you start your thread by:

Okay, you're right.

It's absolutely stupid to haul a** in a long travel at Glamis because:


It's not the car...is this envy or disgust? We all know it's not the car, but the operator. There are a lot of us, who own a long travel, that also happens to have a V-8 in it, that would disagree with you on every point.

In fact, every point you make can also be applied to a long travel that has a Subie or VW in it....

And saying that a long travel can't turn sharp is another narrow point of view. Have you seen a Funco turn? Nothing out there can out-turn a Funco Gen4.

I suggest that you come out and dune with those of us who own Amplified Performance or Sand Limos or Tatum cars....we dune our cars, and yes, we find places where we can haul a$$ safely; just like we did with those ol air-cooled motors.

Talk to Murph, Riderred, parrotroofing, jusbryan, Mr. LV, Bohica, and others.


And lastly...any buggy hitting a bike or quad has the same result:

a 1000 lbs or 1800 lbs at 50 mph still effs up the rider and the bike....

trixmix...

Wow...you sound a lot like my wonderful wife. As she gets older, she is less willing to take chances. It can be very frustrating for both of us as she gets scared easilly. We both work hard to minimize her discomfort.

It sounds like maybe when you were duning, your friend was the lead car? My wife hates to be in the lead as she wants to see what's over the next ridge, and by following another car, she can see what it's doing, and it's nowhere near as frightening to her that way.

Another thing that helps her is to ride her quad. We had to start very slowly, in the "baby dunes", but she's learned how it "feels" and what to expect and she was in control while she was learning. She's still not really comfortable in the "big" dunes, but she's kept at it, and truly enjoys "most" of what riding/driving we do in the dunes.

I'm glad you are able to see your anger, and can separate it from "all" of us who dune. Truly, the vast majority of duners are both saddened and angered by any accident, death, or injury in our beloved sport. Many of us dune with our families. We use the dune experience to teach real life lessons to our children and grand children. Danger is a very real part of life. I firmly believe that by facing danger head on, and learning to both live with it, and minimize it's effects, a child is going to have a leg up on a coddled and protected peer.

I'll use myself as an example. I started riding motorcyles in the sand and desert when I was 9 years old. I had my share of accidents..scrapes, cuts, broken bones, etc. Some from off roading, some from bicycling, some from just walking down the street. But, my parents cut me no slack because of my "boo-boo's". I learned to deal with injuries and not complain. I learned I had to take responsibility for my own actions, stupid as they may have been. I had to pay for the damage to my equipment. I had to maintain it. I learned how to build a campfire. Every lesson I learned, I have used many times over in my life.

It's not all about the "me" things either. I learned how to care for my fellow man. We didn't (and still don't) leave someone stranded if they break down. I learned how to "bond" with others sharing a similar hardship. I learned how beautiful the "desert" is because I've seen it firsthand, not just on some tv set, or in a book. I've learned how fragile it is by seeing it first hand. I think those are great qualities to pass on to the next couple of generations..how about you?

I do hope you will consider another trip to Glamis in the near future. By all means, camp with the Gd.com group at 13.5. You will see firsthand a group of people of all ages who care about the dunes, each other, and know how to have fun in a safe and mostly sane manner. I'll give you a ride in my car..and we'll go as slow (or as fast) as you want. I just have a feeling that you'll walk away with a different view of Glamis and those who love her...

BeachHead, well said. I applaud you for putting it into words.
Thanks.

And Trixmix, I applaud you for having an open mind and in coming to this forum to see for yourself.
Thanks to you also.