GlamisDunes.com > Budget Funco Gen 4

onanysunday

Mar 13 2005, 12:44 PM

Well,
I have finally decided on my next car. It will be a Funco Gen 4 with a 3.5
Nissan v6. It will be turboed, non intercooled with 9 psi boost. Since I am on
a very tight budget, I will be doing all of the work myself along with my father
Chuck of Chucks Speed Center and brother in law to be Errick.(Errick is now doing the fuel injection and dyno work on all the race cars,street rods, buggies, etc. He is also a certified Harley mechanic) It has been a real struggle deciding on the motor. I love the subaru for its lightweight and nimbleness but just don't have the$$$. I ran the Nissan in my last car (Sand Limo - great car by the way) without a turbo and was very happy with it. I like this motor better than the Honda
due to higher horsepower numbers and more aftermarket parts available. It is
not as pretty as the Honda (my guess why you don't see more in buggies) but I'm
not really into show. When we were in Vegas for the S.E.M.A. show this year
there were quite a few manufacturers selling parts for the 350z such as twin turbo
kits, aluminum oil pans, etc. Through 04 the HP was 287 stock and I think a little
higher in 05. The motor will be coming from a 2002 or later Maxima or Altima,
but I will be running the 350z exhaust manifolds and two piece plenum/intake.
Computer and edist (electronic distributor) will be F.A.S.T. (Fuel, Air, Spark, Technology) My father has run tons of these in race cars, street rods,buggies,
and you name it. It will be nice this time since we did all the R&D work on my
last car. There is a billet spacer that needs machined to install the crank trigger
on the front of the motor. The stock cam has 5 or 6 "windows" to read the signal
so we machined one with 1 window. This slips over the end of the cam and is
tightened with a set screw. The valve cover is cut in the back for the sensor
then there needs to be a check hole in the top covered by a billet plug. On the
last motor we were going to use the nitrous circuit in the computer to run the variable cam timing but the motor ran so good we just dissconnected the soelinoids.(I know that is spelled wrong)
This is a long term project due to funds. I am hoping to order my roller from Grant this fall. In the meantime I will buy the motor and start mocking everything up. After 35+years the shop is being relocated due to the light rail going through
Phoenix. That will keep us occupied through April, then I can find a motor. The
last one was $1400.00 to my door with 12000 miles.This week I actually won the bid on a 3.5 from a 2002 Altima with 38,000 miles for $510.00 but the guy in Florida had a reserve of $800.00. Along with $275.00 shipping. I will keep looking.

Here is my first purchase.
Believe it or not I paid $400.00 for these new from the Nissan dealer last time.
I like the stock 350z exhaust manifolds because they are double wall, lightweight,
and this time cheap!!
Is this a good buy or what?
My next purchase is the two piece 350z intake/plenum. If you go here
Click on link for video
and watch the 3 minute video, Doug shows how his plenum allows more flow
to the front runners. The stock plenum tapers down due to the crossbar under the
hood in the 350z and G35. In a turbo application I'm not sure if it will matter but
I still may cut, raise, and TIG the stock upper for better flow. It is on its way
Fed Ex later this week. I will post pics when it arrives. ($179.00 shipped used
after emailing a bunch of people from the Z forums. Shop cost from Nissan was
$367.00 for the upper and lower)
If it is OK with everyone I will post pics throughout this project and maybe someone else can get some ideas if they want to do a similar combination.

virginsand

Mar 13 2005, 05:00 PM

QUOTE

There is a billet spacer that needs machined to install the crank trigger
on the front of the motor. The stock cam has 5 or 6 "windows" to read the signal
so we machined one with 1 window. This slips over the end of the cam and is
tightened with a set screw. The valve cover is cut in the back for the sensor
then there needs to be a check hole in the top covered by a billet plug.

Do you have any pics? A web site for the ECU?

mjmtrsprt

Mar 13 2005, 06:07 PM

So you have run the vq35 before with this computer? and were able to just unplug the vvt solenoids and it ran okay, my buddy is in the process right know with that motor and we talked to a guy and he said he had to machine billet spacers to lock the cams in place because they would somehow move and sometimes then he couldnt start it.
also kennedy engineering makes a adapter plate to run the stock crank sensor and they put the trigger wheel on their flywheel.
he has been talking to different comp. manufacturers and has found two who say thiers will run the vvt. one is a guy in northern ca. I forget his name. The other is HKS who says with his you piggyback it with the stock computer, so HKS runs everything except vvt then connects to stock computer to run vvt.
We also figured out that you can subaru oil filter adapter to go remote so it looks a little nicer than the stock filter sticken out the back.
We just deleted the stock plenum because it ran into a tube on his chassis and made a new shorter one wich put the throttle body in a better location, what throttle body did you run on last motor(because stock is drive by wire) the guy we talked is running a mustang 4.6 70mm so that what we bought?
if you know of any other tricks or possible problems we can run into please let me know any info would be great.

onanysunday

Mar 13 2005, 06:24 PM

F.A.S.T. website

Here are some pics of my last car:

Crank trigger. Of course everyone is saying go with power steering so the pump and turbo will now be back here.

Side view. Shows the 350z exhaust manifolds. Not as fancy as headers
but more than adequate.

Top view. Nasty altima/maxima intake that will be replaced with one from
a 350z. That intake actually had a butterfly that the computer opens and
closes to shut off some of the cylinders. I will also take the LS1
coils and mount above the valve covers then make covers to make it look
a little nicer. Air valve was off a 4.3 chevy. Pretty big. Not sure if I will go
quite that big with the turbo.

F.A.S.T. computer and edist box is next to the fuel tank

The only pic I have showing the billet piece covering the inspection hole
for the cam sensor

onanysunday

Mar 13 2005, 06:49 PM

QUOTE

So you have run the vq35 before with this computer? and were able to just unplug the vvt solenoids and it ran okay, my buddy is in the process right know with that motor and we talked to a guy and he said he had to machine billet spacers to lock the cams in place because they would somehow move and sometimes then he couldnt start it.

We tore the vvt apart and inspected how it all worked. Even dropped some
of the small parts and had to remove the pan. (Pan was off anyway due to
damage from wrecker. They did reimburse me though) Anyway I racked my brain
and tried to find someone to ask. Finally just left it disconnected and let it rip.
I ran the pi$$ out of that motor for two years and the guy that bought it said
it still runs great. Always started instantly and idled perfect. How the programming
is set up on the computer is critical.

QUOTE

also kennedy engineering makes a adapter plate to run the stock crank sensor and they put the trigger wheel on their flywheel.

I remember talking to Kennedy on that but we did the trigger on the front of the
motor. I think it is an MSR that was purchased in a kit. You can see in the pics
the custom bracket to mount then set the air gap.

QUOTE

We also figured out that you can subaru oil filter adapter to go remote so it looks a little nicer than the stock filter sticken out the back

I like the sound of that. Also I never did like the size of the stock filter. Are you
talking an aftermarket adapter.

IMPORTANT NOTE: I have built a lot of motors and had something happen on
this motor that is right at the top of the freaky list. When we started the motor
we noticed the oil pressure was high. I think at first it went over 100psi! I was just waiting for the old fram grenade oildown. Thought hmmmm. Called people and researched and never found an answer. Never changed anything in the oiling system. Anyway started removing and replacing with different springs and finally got the right pressure. Freakin weird.

I will be running this adapter to add another quart. Only $100.00 vs $500.00.
I need to check but I think you can order it with the oil return for the turbo.

JWT oil pan adapter

mjmtrsprt

Mar 13 2005, 08:00 PM

Thanks for the reply that pan spacer looks cool he was thinking of cutting and lengthening the stock pan but thats much easier. the oil filter adapter we bought outbacks and then we are removing the coolant lines around the stock location. And you have to machine a liitle off the inside lip of the adapter. but the threads and the filter size are the same. that is the same intake he has out of a I35. His intake manifolds are different the drop straight down to 3 bolt flange, the guy we talked to owned the orange twisted tin car(on the index page of this months sand sports) he had the same straight down manifolds with twin turbo and the worked really simple with the turbos. my buddy is staying N/A and having headers made probably 6 into 1. The HKS dealer he talked with has headers flanges they will sell him too. I will try to post some pics of the intake we did and manifolds he has.

wreck

Mar 13 2005, 08:12 PM

I am also running a nissan motor in my buggy a 300zx turbo and wondering if the headers or the pattern are the same for the vg 30 and those headers you have, they look like the same pattern. I am also interested in the oil pan spacer looks great. What tranny are you running in your car? Any info would be great.

virginsand

Mar 13 2005, 08:14 PM

Thanks for the pics and information.

onanysunday

Mar 13 2005, 09:51 PM

QUOTE

I am also running a nissan motor in my buggy a 300zx turbo and wondering if the headers or the pattern are the same for the vg 30 and those headers you have, they look like the same pattern. I am also interested in the oil pan spacer looks great

Paul at F&R motorsports has done a lot of turbo 3.0 projects and knows this motor. He also helped revalve my Kings and did a great job. This link is to
his other business and has an email link. I can also give you his number if
you need it

F&R Motorsports

Ebay has lots of headers for both motors at pretty decent prices

Like this

Nine-1

Mar 14 2005, 10:39 AM

sounds like its gonna be a pretty badass car

journeyman

Mar 14 2005, 11:00 AM

QUOTE(onanysunday @ Mar 14 2005, 12:44 AM)

Here is my first purchase.
Believe it or not I paid $400.00 for these new from the Nissan dealer last time.
I like the stock 350z exhaust manifolds because they are double wall, lightweight,
and this time cheap!!
Is this a good buy or what?

[right][snapback]901643[/snapback][/right]

Those actually look like pretty good flowing manifolds!
And being double walled (AND with a heat shield) there is no need for jet hot coating (unless you REALLY want to keep the heat in).
Keeping the pre-turbo exhaust hot translates into more power at less expense (less pre-turbo heat loss means less pre-turbo pressure loss).

Good call on the factory manifolds.

And yes, you DID get a good deal!!

SUBIE4ME

Mar 14 2005, 06:14 PM

[quote=onanysunday,Mar 13 2005, 12:44 PM]
It has been a real struggle deciding on the motor. I love the subaru for its lightweight and nimbleness but just don't have the$$$.

Subaru's don't have to mean big $$$$$ ! Depending on your abilities, you could do a 2.0 pump gas motor for between 2 & 3k. A pumped up (race gas,hi boost)2.0 would add around 1500 bucks. That is between 3 & 4.5k for everything. I did one for 3k . Including trans adapter & ecu. You could get into a lo boost 2.5 for under 6k. The honda and nissan motors are great, but they have a much higher cg than a subie. If you still decide to go with the nissan, at least check out msefi.com . You can buy one built and tested for 250 bucks, then add 30 bucks of junkyard parts for the spark.. They work great, and have recently had many new features added, making them comparable with ecu's costing a LOT more. BTW, I am not connected with them in any way. I'm just a very pleased builder/tuner of one.

onanysunday

Mar 14 2005, 06:46 PM

QUOTE

Subaru's don't have to mean big $$$$$ ! Depending on your abilities, you could do a 2.0 pump gas motor for between 2 & 3k. A pumped up (race gas,hi boost)2.0 would add around 1500 bucks. That is between 3 & 4.5k for everything. I did one for 3k . Including trans adapter & ecu. You could get into a lo boost 2.5 for under 6k. The honda and nissan motors are great, but they have a much higher cg than a subie. If you still decide to go with the nissan, at least check out msefi.com . You can buy one built and tested for 250 bucks, then add 30 bucks of junkyard parts

With the nissan it is easy to make 400+ reliable horsepower. Paul at F&R motorsports has done many 3.0 (2001 and earlier) turbo projects and they
haul a$$. Iv'e seen him run up to 15psi with no intercooler. The 3.5 should even
be better. Unfortunately for that kind of power in a Subaru it is $$$ for the closed
deck block,rods, pistons, labor,etc.,etc. I also like the idea if a motor breaks there
are 1000s more out there to drop in quickly.
And yes I realize the center of gravity and weight is a huge issue especially in this
car but finally decided it is the best "happy medium" for my budget. (Ask Grant, I have been driving him nuts for 3 years)
As far as the ECU the F.A.S.T. stuff is right up there in quality. I never heard of the
mega squirt. The computer and how the programming is done is critical on the
performance. I have ridden in and been around cars that I knew could run much better by either programming or different computer. It seems price is usually a good indicator on quality and adjustability. My fathers shop has installed this system on many very high dollar vehicles.

onanysunday

Mar 15 2005, 07:05 PM

QUOTE

So you have run the vq35 before with this computer? and were able to just unplug the vvt solenoids and it ran okay, my buddy is in the process right know with that motor and we talked to a guy and he said he had to machine billet spacers to lock the cams in place because they would somehow move and sometimes then he couldnt start it.
also kennedy engineering makes a adapter plate to run the stock crank sensor and they put the trigger wheel on their flywheel.
he has been talking to different comp. manufacturers and has found two who say thiers will run the vvt. one is a guy in northern ca. I forget his name. The other is HKS who says with his you piggyback it with the stock computer, so HKS runs everything except vvt then connects to stock computer to run vvt.

Today I finally found a guy that knows about the vvt. He builds Nissan race engines
and apparantly is the guru that Nismo calls when they need technical assistance. On my last engine the vvt was disconnected leaving the cams in a full retarded posistion. This gives more top end. (That motor ran like a scalded ape from 4000-6700 rpm). The vvt is on the intake cams only and there is 42 degrees of range
of advance. He said the only computer to run this system correctly is the Motec.
He was talking algarithms and flat curves which went over my head but basically
there is a pulse signal sent to the solenoids to control the vvt. There is another signal from the cams telling the computer what is happening. I asked him how it
would run without the vvt and he said not as good but would still work (they had dyno numbers of 15lb or torque higher at certain rpms with vvt vs.not. ) Since this
is a budget build I will probably stick with the F.A.S.T. ECU and pin the vvt. (That job is going to be a biatch) With it disconnected he did recommend pinning it at 16-17 degrees advanced (42 is max so I guess that would be leaning toward higher rpm.) I did ask about the 350z plenum and he said it should be fine. He did mention a 1" spacer that goes between the upper and lower and adds some HP. I will have to research that.

Several people have told me that the rod bolts are weak and have seen on turbo applications several motors push a rod out the side of the block. Apparantly Nissan Motorsport of America has some better bolts that are 40% stronger. The cool part is that they can be changed from the bottom without resizing the rods.

This stainless oil filter looks pretty neat.

Stainless oil filter

Here are the only pics I have found on a rebuild of this motor. 650HP!

Motor rebuild

Also I have emailed 50+ wrecking yards in the southwest and have received two
bids on motors from $1350.00 to $1500.00 for one with 10,000 miles. I know there
is a better deal out there.

onanysunday

Mar 18 2005, 07:19 PM

350z intake/plenum. Pretty nice piece. I was surprised by the weight (18lbs).
Much better than the Maxima/Altima intake. I wonder what the Honda intake
weighs?

This one would be nice but $1000?

Cool intake

mjmtrsprt

Mar 18 2005, 08:03 PM

that is definently a better intake. One question I had is why did you run ls1 coils? what was wrong with stock coils?

Jumpnbean

Mar 19 2005, 01:28 AM

Nice ...

onanysunday

Mar 19 2005, 08:30 AM

QUOTE

One question I had is why did you run ls1 coils? what was wrong with stock coils?

He has used the LS1 coils on other projects and know they work well with
the F.A.S.T. edist box. Might look into running the stock ones this time.
It would definately be an easier installation with no bracket/fabrication.
And cheaper.

journeyman

Mar 19 2005, 09:42 AM

That is a WILD looking intake manifold!

Sunshine

Mar 19 2005, 02:16 PM

QUOTE(onanysunday @ Mar 19 2005, 10:30 AM)

He has used the LS1 coils on other projects and know they work well with
the F.A.S.T. edist box. Might look into running the stock ones this time.
It would definately be an easier installation with no bracket/fabrication.
And cheaper.
[right][snapback]910441[/snapback][/right]

It all depends on the resistance of the Nissan coils. The drivers in the EDIS box may not be compatable......

Sunshine

mjmtrsprt

Mar 20 2005, 04:46 PM

here is the pic of the exhaust manifolds he has pretty cool for turbo setup[attachmentid=19122]

mjmtrsprt

Mar 20 2005, 04:48 PM

here is what we did on the fuel rails[attachmentid=19123]

mjmtrsprt

Mar 20 2005, 04:51 PM

here is the oil filter adapter it worked out great[attachmentid=19124]

mjmtrsprt

Mar 20 2005, 04:53 PM

This is what we did for the intake should work[attachmentid=19125]

onanysunday

Mar 20 2005, 05:36 PM

Looks great. Thanks for the pics and please keepem coming. One thing we
did last time on the fuel rails is run a crossover (at the end of each run) to equalize pressure. Probably doesn't matter because they have the same feed. Also you can remove that butterfly on the back of the intake and use a plate. (Looks a lot cleaner) Is that the Mustang air valve? Are you runnin a turbo on this or N/A?

onanysunday

Mar 20 2005, 05:38 PM

QUOTE

Are you runnin a turbo on this or N/A?

Duh. Turbo manifold

onanysunday

Mar 21 2005, 11:17 AM

Received this email today from one of the 350z gurus. The video link I sent
him was the recently posted Funco dune run.

"Hi Kurtis, thanks for all the great info. Good write up on your VQ project thread. WOW! Awesome video. If you say that video doesn't do it justice, then the real thing must be unbelievable!

We are still using the factory coils without a problem. I have friends that have used the LS-1 coils on the Supra 2JZ-GTE. They seem to respond better to some engine management systems.

I have some new info for you may be interested in. We just rec'd our billet high flow fuel rails and billet plenum spacers from our fabricator. The rails are super low profile design to fit the factory two piece plenum with larger flow injectors (which barely fit with the stock rails). These rails were designed to work with the G35/350Z plenum. They will provied enough flow to satisfy over 800WHP. The plenum spacer is a super trick item. Again, specifically developed for the 350Z, it allows for the factory strut bar to remain in use. The plenum spacer is a true budget based bolt-on. It adds 10WHP by simply installing it. Not bad for $275 and an hour install, huh! Kills the replacement plenums in cost vs. power gained.

Also, got some info regarding the weak conn rod issue of the VQ. Seems the VVT is part of the blame for pushing the rods through the block under boost. It seems the factory ecu has three timing maps, and one of those maps is very boost unfriendly. The fix is to simply replace it with one of the other two maps and when the ecu switches maps, it's actually using the same map (the good map). The factory rods/compression are still limited though. I think 10PSI is max w/intercooler and high octane fuel and conservative ign. timing.

I've attached some pics of the new products for you. Thanks for the link and the video."

Best regards,

James Cusack
www.carv2.com

The 3 pics he sent

user posted image

mjmtrsprt

Mar 26 2005, 08:23 PM

He is actually running N/A and making headers. I just posted pic to show you those manifolds might work better for your application than the ones on your last car, there are off a front wheel drive car.

onanysunday

Mar 29 2005, 06:04 PM

QUOTE

I just posted pic to show you those manifolds might work better for your application than the ones on your last car, there are off a front wheel drive car.

Cast iron. They would work great but a little heavy.

Basic low buck T4 Borg Warner turbo and evolution wastegate. Bought this
from Paul at F&R Motorsports since he knew what size housing to run and
has lots of experience with the Nissans. Any opinions on a reasonably priced
blow off valve?

onanysunday

May 16 2005, 12:22 PM

After finding the mother of lists for auto wrecking / recycling yards
yesterday I emailed almost every wrecking yard on this list. (Took about 8
hours while watching TV at the same time. Is that dedication or what?). This morning I had around 80 responses.

Huge list of auto recyclers

Bought my motor for $600 less than I paid last time ($800 vs $1400)
and got the power steering and alternator included). It should be delivered later this week from a yard in Arkansas. (Nice people. He knew it was for a buggy
before I said anything other than my email saying that it was going in an offroad
vehicle)

Here is the car it came out of - 2003 Nissan Maxima - 28,000 miles

user posted image

Sandzilla

May 16 2005, 01:31 PM

Your project sounds great! I wish you all the best and keep us posted with pics. If you can, try to work in a intercooler into your budget. It will make a world of difference in power. Heat is a killer when it come to boost and if you plan on running the sock pistons it will help save you some wear an tear. The Nissan engine is a quick revving beast due to "light weight" pistons. By light weight, I do not mean cheaply made. Nissan has perfected this engine over many years and it a good piece. I'm not sure about the 04/05 engine but I think it still uses short skirt pistons to reduce friction, (to save hp) but it's not the best for "turbo applications." I'm sure someone will jump me and say otherwise, but history has "shown me" that a longer skirt with the rings a little further down on the slug works best. And a intercooler will help you with boost numbers and help prevent the deadly "detonation" that hill climbing and short shifting in a sand rail can produce. Race gas helps too but I don't know if you are planning to running it all the time.

Of course all of this is moot if you keep the boost pressure down… But I have no control over such matters.

Zilla

QUOTE(onanysunday @ Mar 13 2005, 12:44 PM)

Well,
I have finally decided on my next car. It will be a Funco Gen 4 with a 3.5
Nissan v6. It will be turboed, non intercooled with 9 psi boost. Since I am on
a very tight budget, I will be doing all of the work myself along with my father
Chuck of Chucks Speed Center and brother in law to be Errick.(Errick is now doing the fuel injection and dyno work on all the race cars,street rods, buggies, etc. He is also a certified Harley mechanic) It has been a real struggle deciding on the motor. I love the subaru for its lightweight and nimbleness but just don't have the$$$. I ran the Nissan in my last car (Sand Limo - great car by the way) without a turbo and was very happy with it. I like this motor better than the Honda
due to higher horsepower numbers and more aftermarket parts available. It is
not as pretty as the Honda (my guess why you don't see more in buggies) but I'm
not really into show. When we were in Vegas for the S.E.M.A. show this year
there were quite a few manufacturers selling parts for the 350z such as twin turbo
kits, aluminum oil pans, etc. Through 04 the HP was 287 stock and I think a little
higher in 05. The motor will be coming from a 2002 or later Maxima or Altima,
but I will be running the 350z exhaust manifolds and two piece plenum/intake.
Computer and edist (electronic distributor) will be F.A.S.T. (Fuel, Air, Spark, Technology) My father has run tons of these in race cars, street rods,buggies,
and you name it. It will be nice this time since we did all the R&D work on my
last car. There is a billet spacer that needs machined to install the crank trigger
on the front of the motor. The stock cam has 5 or 6 "windows" to read the signal
so we machined one with 1 window. This slips over the end of the cam and is
tightened with a set screw. The valve cover is cut in the back for the sensor
then there needs to be a check hole in the top covered by a billet plug. On the
last motor we were going to use the nitrous circuit in the computer to run the variable cam timing but the motor ran so good we just dissconnected the soelinoids.(I know that is spelled wrong)
This is a long term project due to funds. I am hoping to order my roller from Grant this fall. In the meantime I will buy the motor and start mocking everything up. After 35+years the shop is being relocated due to the light rail going through
Phoenix. That will keep us occupied through April, then I can find a motor. The
last one was $1400.00 to my door with 12000 miles.This week I actually won the bid on a 3.5 from a 2002 Altima with 38,000 miles for $510.00 but the guy in Florida had a reserve of $800.00. Along with $275.00 shipping. I will keep looking.

Here is my first purchase.
Believe it or not I paid $400.00 for these new from the Nissan dealer last time.
I like the stock 350z exhaust manifolds because they are double wall, lightweight,
and this time cheap!!
Is this a good buy or what?
My next purchase is the two piece 350z intake/plenum. If you go here
Click on link for video
and watch the 3 minute video, Doug shows how his plenum allows more flow
to the front runners. The stock plenum tapers down due to the crossbar under the
hood in the 350z and G35. In a turbo application I'm not sure if it will matter but
I still may cut, raise, and TIG the stock upper for better flow. It is on its way
Fed Ex later this week. I will post pics when it arrives. ($179.00 shipped used
after emailing a bunch of people from the Z forums. Shop cost from Nissan was
$367.00 for the upper and lower)
If it is OK with everyone I will post pics throughout this project and maybe someone else can get some ideas if they want to do a similar combination.

[right][snapback]901643[/snapback][/right]

40 PSI

May 16 2005, 01:43 PM

9 psi on the VQ3.5 liter non-intercooled is pushing the motor too far, especially for the cars intended use in the desert/dunes. Intercool it or you will lose the motor.

onanysunday

May 16 2005, 02:27 PM

QUOTE

9 psi on the VQ3.5 liter non-intercooled is pushing the motor too far, especially for the cars intended use in the desert/dunes. Intercool it or you will lose the motor.

I have talked to many different people including the tech guy that Nismo Racing calls when they have a question and the consensus is that 9-10psi is max for the stock bottom end. (I'm still up in the air on putting the Nismo rod bolts in. Rods do not have to be resized with these). As far as boost vs. intercool or not, that has been discussed on this board before. I have seen the 3.0 Nissan with 15psi and no intercooler and work fine. IMO this is a little high but 9-10 psi with proper cooling,race fuel, timing, and how the fuel curves, injector duty cycles are set up is the most important thing. I have also talked to several guys doing the 350z with 5-8 psi on pump gas and they work fine.(Yes those setups are intercooled) A few have broken bottom ends but from what I can gather that was due to the tuning. When you say pushing it to far what do you mean?

onanysunday

May 16 2005, 02:47 PM

Old thread on intercooling

Outback says 10 psi a good recommendation and 15 psi a must. Copper
has a link in which the article says 7psi or above it isa good idea. Everything
I have heard has been up to 9 to 10psi. If this wasn't a budget build I would
probably consider it. I am trying to build the whole car for 45k.

Sandzilla

May 16 2005, 03:01 PM

WOW!...40 PSI and I agree on something

....There must be a God.

Zilla

QUOTE(40 PSI @ May 16 2005, 01:43 PM)

9 psi on the VQ3.5 liter non-intercooled is pushing the motor too far, especially for the cars intended use in the desert/dunes. Intercool it or you will lose the motor.
[right][snapback]987942[/snapback][/right]

40 PSI

May 16 2005, 03:54 PM

The compression of the VQ3.5 liter motor used in the 350Z does not lend itself to running a decent mbout of boost. The two main Japanese aftermarket suppliers of turbo kits HKS and GReddy both offer intercooled versions with 5-6psi of boost.

When I say, intercool it or you will lose the motor, I mean it will detonate and self-destruct at 9 psi non-intercooled. It doesn't matter if you run C16, take all the timing out, the cylinder pressure and heat will be too much and the spark plugs will end up being glow plugs and detonate.

No one can state a universal max boost pressure for all motors, so when someone quotes Outback (proven tuner) they should be careful to note that for the most part that was referring to Subaru motors and not every motor under the sun.

Your research and conclusions are frightening.........

QUOTE(onanysunday @ May 16 2005, 03:27 PM)

QUOTE

9 psi on the VQ3.5 liter non-intercooled is pushing the motor too far, especially for the cars intended use in the desert/dunes. Intercool it or you will lose the motor.

I have talked to many different people including the tech guy that Nismo Racing calls when they have a question and the consensus is that 9-10psi is max for the stock bottom end. (I'm still up in the air on putting the Nismo rod bolts in. Rods do not have to be resized with these). As far as boost vs. intercool or not, that has been discussed on this board before. I have seen the 3.0 Nissan with 15psi and no intercooler and work fine. IMO this is a little high but 9-10 psi with proper cooling,race fuel, timing, and how the fuel curves, injector duty cycles are set up is the most important thing. I have also talked to several guys doing the 350z with 5-8 psi on pump gas and they work fine.(Yes those setups are intercooled) A few have broken bottom ends but from what I can gather that was due to the tuning. When you say pushing it to far what do you mean?
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onanysunday

May 16 2005, 04:47 PM

QUOTE

Your research and conclusions are frightening.........

Wow! That is interesting. This research comes from multiple people that
specialize and work on this engine daily. Including the turbo kits you are
referring to. I have told them what I am doing and asked their opinion.
I have built and machined many types of motors over the years but until
my last car had no experience with this particular engine. That is the
reason for the research. This is not just one or two people that I have
talked to. You now definately have me thinking. What you are saying is
contrary to others but I can understand where you are coming from. Maybe
I should pony up and do the intercooler or drop the boost to 6-7psi without.

seaduner

May 16 2005, 05:18 PM

My 2.5L SOHC Subaru ran 9PSI without an intercooler just fine. I even ran a 50/50 fuel mix, 91 and 110 octane. This stock motor had stock 10.5:1 compression ratio pistons too, and I ran stock injectors. The timing wasn't very agressive, but it ran great. Later during the 2nd season I added an intercooler, I didn't notice any performance difference, nor temperature change in the motor (I didn't expect any either). The intercooler was added in preparation for the next step, which was replacing the motor in March (15PSI motor, yeehah). The original motor is 3yrs old now and never had a problem, sitting in my garage as a spare.

I'm told that higher PSI applications in the 15-20lb ranges is where intake air really heats up, which an intercooler becomes more mandatory. I've also heard that timing advance can get more agressive with an intercooler, beyond stock timing.

OnAnySunday, I think your dyno tune will tell the truth about needing an intercooler or not. I think you'll be OK W/O an intercooler according to your plan ........as you've been told by others. I bet you could run 50/50 fuel too.

onanysunday

May 16 2005, 05:32 PM

Starting compression ratio also makes a huge difference. This motor is I believe
10.25 to 1. I know there is a formula for final compression ratio at a given
amount of boost but havn't used it for probably 20 years. Anyway the starting
CR is pretty high and 9-10 psi for the stock motor will be on the ragged edge.
At least if I blow it up its only a weekend and $800. (If I can find a deal that good
again) One thing I would be curious about is the strength of the pistons on this
motor compared to the 3.0s. I have ridden in several cars and talked to Paul at
F&R Motorsports running several of these up to 15 psi with no IC. Man do they
run good! I'm figuring the extra .5 liter at 9-10psi should run about the same.

40 PSI

May 16 2005, 05:49 PM

Running without an intercooler on this motor at 9psi on any type of race fuel (including C16) is not okay, it will detonate, it is not if, it is when. Some people commenting on this appear to have little real experience in boost.

Intercool the motor and be done with it.

seaduner

May 16 2005, 06:53 PM

QUOTE(40 PSI @ May 16 2005, 05:49 PM)

Some people commenting on this appear to have little real experience in boost.
[right][snapback]988198[/snapback][/right]

I agree, I haven't seen anyone speaking with first hand experience running without an intercooler with an example, except one..... oh, that would be me.

40 PSI

May 16 2005, 07:47 PM

My apologies. I did not know you had a VQ 3.5 liter (Nissan 350Z) motor running 9 psi without an intercooler. Any other motor would not be relevant for his application.

QUOTE(seaduner @ May 16 2005, 07:53 PM)

QUOTE(40 PSI @ May 16 2005, 05:49 PM)

Some people commenting on this appear to have little real experience in boost.
[right][snapback]988198[/snapback][/right]

I agree, I haven't seen anyone speaking with first hand experience running without an intercooler with an example, except one..... oh, that would be me.

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onanysunday

May 16 2005, 09:13 PM

40PSI,
I think I am going to take your advice and start at 7 PSI with no intercooler but still straight race fuel. I can always add one later. I'm not out to win any races. Just looking for a fun reliable play car. I'm guessing that it will still run very strong at 7PSI. Also easier on the bottom end and CVs, tranny etc. I just have to make sure that I hide that 9lb spring.

Sandzilla

May 16 2005, 09:18 PM

QUOTE(onanysunday @ May 16 2005, 09:13 PM)

40PSI,
I think I am going to take your advice and start at 7 PSI with no intercooler but still straight race fuel. I can always add one later. I'm not out to win any races. Just looking for a fun reliable play car. I'm guessing that it will still run very strong at 7PSI. Also easier on the bottom end and CVs, tranny etc. I just have to make sure that I hide that 9lb spring.

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Josh @ DanZio

May 17 2005, 05:46 AM

Here is a 350Z that we turbocharged using the Turbonetics kit. Eventhough this one was for the 350Z in kit form, we can purchase only the parts nessecarry for puting this type of deal on a dunebuggy. It was pretty impressive results and the car worked out very nice. Click on the link and check it out.

DanZio 350Z

onanysunday

May 17 2005, 09:04 AM

QUOTE

Here is a 350Z that we turbocharged using the Turbonetics kit. Eventhough this one was for the 350Z in kit form, we can purchase only the parts nessecarry for puting this type of deal on a dunebuggy. It was pretty impressive results and the car worked out very nice. Click on the link and check it out

That is some impressive numbers. On my last motor in the Sand Limo we
made 182 HP at the rear wheels also on a Mustang Dyno.(Naturally aspirated) This time around will be interesting. At 7psi I'm guessing around 260-270 RWP.
The new shop opened last week with a new dyno room and new $40k+ Mustang
Dyno. And the blue and yellow checkerboard floor will make you dizzy. Very cool

onanysunday

May 17 2005, 09:26 AM

Mr Lv.
The numbers comparison is interesting. You had 206RWP stock and I
had 182RWP with the Maxima motor. A difference of 24HP. The Maxima
stock Engine HP is 255 and the Z is 287. (The new Z is 300). That is 32HP
difference at the flywheel.

v&l powdercoat

May 17 2005, 05:13 PM

yeah, all that turbo talk is great!!! but all i want to know is what color is it going to be?

onanysunday

May 17 2005, 05:51 PM

My wife and daughters want pink

Not
Actually I was thinking some crazy Barbie / Ken theme could make it work.
I don't think I have ever seen a pink car.

I will probably settle with a cool purple with some pink/red flames.
Mama really likes the tatum paint theme.

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onanysunday

Jun 11 2005, 10:55 PM

Changed my mind on those nasty looking 350z exhaust manifolds. Inside wall is
only .039 thick. Decided to build my first set of headers.

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The flanges did end up being perfect for headers. I sandwiched and welded the two together then set them up in the mill. Removed a ton of material for the 1.625
tubing to fit. In the pic you can see a gap on the outer radius. This was easy to work over before welding.

user posted image

I searched all over and the best price I could find on 3 into 1 collectors was almost
$200 each. (1.625 in and 2.000 out). I could have bought 1.625 in and 2.500 out for $20 each. Anyway I just built my own collectors. (Not so easy)

Now that this header is almost welded, I will cut the welds and remove the collector
to weld the gap between the three tubes on the inside.

user posted image

Now I need to machine the mating surface and port match.(Wont take much) These tubes will flow much better that the z manifolds.

user posted image

Ends up that the 350z Plenum will not bolt up to the Maxima intake. (z is on the right - notice the ports are a little larger). Our cost from the dealer is $240. I found a used one for $75. This guy has z motors and parts laying around.
Jim
Turbo Toys Inc
4707 N Grady Ave
Tampa, Fl, 33614
813 695 6664

user posted image

Ports are the same size going into the block

user posted image

My other header is almost done - just no pics yet