So what do you all think will be the future of the buggy industry, tech wise? What new designs, parts, technology, etc. do you think we will see? I'm not talking unrealistic stuff, I'm talking about the buggies that will be for sale to the general public in the next few years? Or another way to look at this question is, what would YOU like to see from the buggy builders?

The buggy industry has come a long way. How far will it go?

And FYI, I'm not only talking about the super expensive rails. Sometimes new technology can actually make things less expensive.

Your thoughts?

I know what we are seeing, bigger and heavier cars. It is not uncommon now a days for a typical sandcar to weigh over 3k. All the trailing and a-arms are much bigger then there were two years ago. Before you know it, cars will weigh 5k with 1500hp in them

I think you will see a trend both ways. More power and suspension on the top end, while on the less expensive end you will see more cars like the Dune Racer. More affordable cars with LT suspension. The R&D and jigs are all ready made, so why not.

I think the single biggest thing that has helped our sport over the last few
years is better lighter weight engines which are now readily available to the
masses. Its hard for me to believe that we will have the same advances in
lets say the next 5 years. These engines are all from factory cars and I can't
see them making them lighter or leaps and bounds better. Sure we will
have advancements like ls1 to ls2 (which actually is good old fashinoned cubic inches - not sure if the cam is different in the LS2) I know that the Nissan 3.5
that will go in my next car is extremely advanced along with other v6s including
variable cam timing, 4 valves per cylinder and very light weight. Can they make
this motor any better? And if you have the $ can you imagine getting any more HP out of a subie or making it any lighter? All of these engines have to run on the crappy gas (Mtbe in the winter) in street vehicles. With computerized fuel injection and vvt now being the norm I believe future advancements on the internal combustion engine will be much smaller.
As far as the rest of the car a frame has certain minimums in the amount of tubing
required to hold up to these higher horsepower engines and be safe. So unless titanium becomes more affordable I can't see great advancements here other than
design.
One thing I could see happening is better shock technology. I remember seeing
a program on magnets with a special fluid to control the shocks. I think it was on
a hummer. I do remember them saying the fluid was VERY expensive but many
consumer items start that way.
I'm also surprised that more builders have not embraced rear a-arms over trailing
arms. It seems to be a better system from people that I have talked to but hey everyone has an opinion.
I do think (and hope by the time I build my car) that HID light technology will become more affordable. More and more people wanting these will hopefully create more competition. Not sure what it costs for the manufacturers though.
Another surprise to me is noone else has done anythine with airbag suspension other than Funco (that I know of). Put a King shock in your left hand and an airbag
in your right.(I haven't done that but have to guess that the weight difference is significant) Weight is the name of the game isn't it - especially in the rear of the car.
Whew that was a long post.

i think more horspower will be seen in future buggies. There is so much r&d in motors, i think it will be easier to acheive more horspower for less. For example, the new ls7 coming out in august that could be bought as a crate motor. 427ci and 500hp outa the box is not too shaby!

Sure more cubic inches makes it easier to make more HP. What about reliable transmissions to hold up? I guess if you have enough $. I know for me a 12-15k tranny just isn't an option. Wonder if we will have any different tranny options lets say 3 years from now
How about a 3 speed auto that is the same size and weight as a mendi 2d.
Sure would be a tiny torque converter.

I think computers may come more into play. They are becoming so rugged now days, that they could manage everything from the engine, tranny, electronics (including GPS), to lights and passenger comfort.

Microchips telling the shocks how to valve as they read the terrain 8 billion times a second, fuel management that reads every different type of enviromental variable, and so on.

It could happen

I tend to agree, it will always go bigger and badder and in the other direction more of an entry level ride with decent horsepower and good suspensions for a far price.

Not an innovation, but a restriction that will be forced on buggies.....smog testing

Hopefully only in california, we dont even smog cars here in wyoming (the wild west).

Glad this topic resurfaced!
I was talking to a racing friend of mine from New Zealand the other day. They are very avid purchasers of older racing equipment from the U.S. They just recieved the Robby Groff Jimco two seater for the off-road racing in New Zealand.
He commented on the severely high CG of the U.S. chassis manufacturers. and how the NZ crowd pays more attention to setting up their cars for turning, handling and rough terrain.
He's right.

This having been said, I believe that the direction is actually going to be to refine the handling attributes of the already manufactured cars today.

The opinions of most of the industry is all over the map on what makes a good handling car. I think that the future is going to become more focused on perfecting the product and not creating new markets. Because this refining doesn't cost more money. But it does make a better product than the other guy.

You're going to see more attention paid to really tuning and dialing in the "all around chassis."

JMHO...

Carl

P.S. I have to give credit to the V8Rail guys for already paying attention to nerdy stuf like CG, roll center, roll rate and boring details like "polar moments."

I can see more Hi-tech electronic gages in the dash letting you know more of what's going on with the car, more reliable trannie's with automatic's being seen more.

I also think that's shocks will come along way with self adjusters to compensate for the type of terrain your ride on giving you that plush ride we all have been looking for.

I can see passenger compartment being enclosed and A/C being added for more comfort in the bigger HP cars. We're already starting to see something like this with the cars DB.com and Buckshot are making with the full body cars.

HP yes lots more HP getting in the 2000 HP range.

4 wheel steering
turbin electric power / no trans
composit frame/ carbon fiber

My thoughts exactly carl! once more people drive a car that handles like a V-8rail they'll most likely understand. But I think it will take awhile. Alot of people are still more concerned with how the car looks as compared to how it handles.

Just the same old stuff. Nothing will have an impact on the sand buggy market like the invention of the Long Travel car and the Mendeola transmission. Back in the day, most people wanted a lightweight 2 seat sandrail with a VW or rotary for a good horsepower to weight ratio. Then, along comes the first long travel sandrail that I ever saw. It was in Sandsation magazine I believe, a yellow Playtech 4 seater with the I beam front suspension. I knew then that I had to have a long travel car and that the industry was about to change big time. Still, that car ran a bus box and a air cooled VW. Why? Because (from what I remember) there was no such thing as a Mendeola gear box at the time. A bus box would grenade with almost any thing over 300hp.
Which leads me onto my next point, the Mendeola. Had this gearbox not been made, you would not see alot of the exotic engines that you see in sand cars today. With it's advent, horsepower to weight ratios became less of an issue. You could now build a heavier/larger car and bolt in a big horsepower motor and be comfortable at the same time. Then the industry really exploded.
As far as the future? IMO only little things can be done, a sand car is still just a roll cage with suspension and a motor/trans. Exotic material for the chassis? Sure. New shocks? Neat. Lighted sidepanels? Wow.
Nothing will impact the sand car industry as much as the Long Travel/Mendola craze...

i hope to see some improvments on transaxles. A $7,000 2D should hold together for more than a couple season, even in the hardest of conditions. Just think if you spent $7,000 on a trubo 400 trans, that thing in addition to being bullet prrof to 2500 HP would also be platnium plated. I know a few companies are working on the 2D with chevy bell housing and torque convetor. I think this is going to prolong the life of these trannies alot. We'll see.

DING DING DING right there..

Transaxles and transmissions is where I would like to see a HUGE amount of R&D done.
Hell, drivelines all together - less power loss, more driver friendly, and less prone to BREAKAGE..

Im sure the beam car guys were saying the same thing when they made the arms longer and added bigger shocks..
When a 2180 was the biggest baddest and then 2332 showed up..
Im pretty sure they all sat around saying the exact same thing..

How about a buggy or speeder that does not even touch the ground??

Hovercrafts, who needs suspension

Heres a 4 seater...





Single Tom Pro design..



Of course a rear engine 2 seater..

[QUOTE]Im sure the beam car guys were saying the same thing when they made the arms longer and added bigger shocks..
When a 2180 was the biggest baddest and then 2332 showed up..
Im pretty sure they all sat around saying the exact same thing.. [CODE]

As far as the beam car guys, it's still just longer suspension and better shocks on a chassis. An evolution into the long travel. What do we do now? Make 'em even wider?
Instead of 2180 then 2332, it's now Northstar to a LS1 to twin turbo chargers....
All the same. Dune Buggy Dougie was asking where do we go from here. If I could come up with a revolutionary way to change the industry I would

I'd like to see a front engine 2 seater based on a very small engine - like a rotary. The chassis should be ultra strong and light - not more tubing, but better placement.

I'd definitely like to see a trans that can hold 700hp for under $4,000.

Not to be a doomsayer but I believe the biggest impact to the sandcar/ buggy industry is going to be lack of dollars from customers.

With the economy going the way it is, and interest rates on the rise. Fewer and fewer people are going to have enough free cash or equity lying around to buy a 60+ thousand dollar "toy" they use ten times a year or so,much less a 100K plus for a supercar...

Ask the guy with the ultra cool car that cant drive it and started "hitting the dunes" a few years ago (even though he hasent seen the backside of osbourne or the dunes to china) and you can see they are already getting bored of sitting there looking cool.

Trickle this theory down to the used market and its going to get tough to unload a two year old car for 40-50K as well....

I believe you will see a return to a lower tech, fun to drive, reliable buggy that gets through the dunes strong and is a ton of fun without all the rediculous cost, and uneeded trickery.

There will always be the dig dollar guys with all the bling...... but most people would never see the need for 2000 HP in the dunes, much less pay for it.

It is my opinion that the herd will thin considerably when all the guys on 3-5 year adj. loans get hit with the new rates in a few years and cant afford to use or maintain the toy they refi'd for. Or they just get bored with criusing the drags with the DVD player going and move on to something else....

OR

The oem's get in on the fun and it becomes to easy for johny dune racer to swing by the local Honda or Yamaha dealer and pick up a "dune car"

That should be interesting...... dont hate, its just my opinion.

People will hate you for this! There will be VooDoo played upon your house!!!

I LIKE it!!!

Carl

I'm not sure I understand what you mean.
I looked at some NZ off-road sites and all I saw where some beam cars zooming around pastures like CORR Racing in the Midwest. There where many turns and the cars looked much lower.

Groff races SCORE. The conditions appear to be different. I was in Ojos Negros just a few days ago and it looked nothing like Cranden.

Do you mean that a buggy that was “tuned” for a closed course in New Zealand can run the Peninsula in November?

Maybe I misunderstood:
The text book principles of “moment” are not being applied to long travel cars?
Or are they applied to meet conditions?
Is the text book, or web information based on street cars?
Is it time for someone to publish why a Buckshot jumps dunes better than a 911?
When a mid-engine and a rear-engine sand car both land the same jump straight and level is it dumb luck or is it tuning?

When the trend is reversed and US off-roaders start buying used cars from New Zealand I will place more value in your buddies claims.

What we are seeing today is Hyperphysics without the slide rule. Brilliant Americans are turning out geometric wonders with tools and occasional hints from engineers.

In the future we will see a rise in structural carbon fiber, ceramics, and polymers. What works will stay what doesn’t work will go.

One things for sure! No matter how cool it looks, or how well it works, in twenty years we will be wondering why it all looks so strange.

http://www.countiesoffroad.co.nz/pages/pictures.htm

I gotta go with Baja on this... either steps backwards or advancement coming to a slow crawl. If we hit a bubble... and that bubble pops... it'll be very ugly for a lot of the industry.

A lot of folks will be fighting tooth and nail just to stay above water, let alone have the time or $ to innovate new ideas and then market it to people that don't have the extra tens of thousands laying around anymore... and who wants to keep up with the Jones' when they are getting all their s*** repo'd

I think if anything... lighter weight, better handling, less expensive is what you'll see.

Tranny's, transaxles, replacement for CV's, more Truggy style cars at the 2500lb level or less........

How many people actually use cash-out REFI's to buy a car? Robbing equity on the hope of the future? Ridiculous.

The same can be said for spending this amount of money on any toy rather than investing the money. You could use the money saved up for a rail to buy another home.


To some people, buying a rail at all, regardless of the source of money, is ridiculous.

Unless one's home, vacation home and children's college fund are fully paid off, there is always a better use for the money.

I think an air conditioned buggy will be next.... no.....anyone......?????





















Just kidding

Electronic shocks are already being tested by several automotive manufacturers, Bose has a system and there are a few others working on them as well. I expect to see that technology scale up to off-road but not for at least 10 years I'm guessing - too many kinks to work out still.

I also have a feeling that we'll be seeing electric buggies sooner than most people suspect. Many of the things that hold the technology back from being acceptable on the highway you can get by with in the dunes. It also solves the transaxle problem (just put a motor at each wheel - many of the new electric motors don't even use gear reduction they make so much torque.) gets the center of gravity down, lowers the overall weight, can be sealed against sand better, and can give equal or better performance.

The downsides are they're too quiet for most motorheads to accept, they're too different for most motorheads to accept (look at how many still fight against EFI despite all it's benefits), and the biggie is charging and batteries (on-board generator solves those but then negates many of the benefits.)

I think the required CA vin numbers will play a large part in brining more financed rails out to the dunes....but not unless some more realistic financing schemes come out. Look at the SU ad in the most recent SSSS - 180 months! How many of you are still driving the same rail you were 180 months ago. Heck how many of you have had a car LAST 180 months - let alone a long travel driven by a newbie.

I also expect to see more of a move to work on lightening things back up again with hi-tech materials and more exotic metals on the upper end.

At the lower end I expect to see more and more homebrewed electronics doing things the big guys never thought of. It's happening already with Megasquirt on street cars and I expect more and more of the DIY buggy guys to start taking the plunge. I'm not just talking about building your own EMS setup - but building it and then teaching it some tricks that no one else is doing. Much like DIY off-roaders have evolved the kinds of suspensions we now see I expect with computer technology being more easily accessible to the "common man" that more and more innovation will start happening there as well.

If we hit a bubble... and that bubble pops... it'll be very ugly for a lot of the industry.

A lot of folks will be fighting tooth and nail just to stay above water, let alone have the time or $ to innovate new ideas and then market it to people that don't have the extra tens of thousands laying around anymore... and who wants to keep up with the Jones' when they are getting all their s*** repo'd

I think if anything... lighter weight, better handling, less expensive is what you'll see.
[right][snapback]1018962[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

When bubbles pop, who suffers, the guys with the extra 10's of thousands or their employees? I'm not sure how this works.

As Baja said, I believe also that we'll have several bubbles pop at once when all those ARMs and Interest only loans mature....


Lot of house being foreclosed

Lot of Hi-end buggies for sale.....for about 75 cents on the dollar

Lot of RVs also going up for sale


Save your money, one poor fool's bad luck is another's fortune

I think the future will be more builders, better financing options, more regulations being applied, ESPN coverage, lighter cars that are stronger, better gauges, on-board computer system with real-time data, better lighting systems, better CV's, better transmissions, suspension technology etc. I think all this will bring the pricing down and make everything more competitive.

What worries me is the cars will become just that "CARS"
Only time will tell...

When the bubble pops (and that's certinatly a when and not an if, they ALWAYS pop.) the big change I expect is a return to the roots of sandrails and the rise of the DIY builder.

Fewer turnkeys and "just cars" with more kits and chassis packages again returning to the forefront. It will become a homebuilders market again more than a car buyers market.

I hope that brings a return to the truely custom buggy. The one trend I really dislike is the "showroom" style of sales. Rails are supposed to be more personal than that and the owner should be involved from when the first load of steel arrives rather than just pick something up that's already "off the shelf". Paint is the only thing separating too many cars right now and I look forward to things going back to where owners have a lot of input into their car and come up with something truely custom built for their own personal needs.

That dosn't mean the new companies that have come up recently will be pushed out...but it does mean everyone in the market will have to adapt and how well they do at finding their niche will decide which companies survive and which bail. I could make some predictions based on current business models but that's not fair - I expect many of those companies to change and adapt their business as they have in the past.

This is kinda the point I waqs trying to make in this post on this thread...

http://www.glamisdunes.com/invision/index....showtopic=46279

I just refinanced and got rid of my 5 year interest only, and replaced it with a 30year fixed at 5.25% I didn't want to take a chance of interest rates jumping to 7...8...9% who knows, and then having toys that I can't afford because I'm struggling to make my new mortgage payment. I think a $50,000 dollar LT rail would be cool...but I would rather have financial security, and be content with my $20,000 mid-travel. Of course, this is just my opinion.

More longevity/ strength from transaxles. With all the metallurgy tech nowadays, you should be able to build a better driveline. Spending 3k for a trans, and 1k for a 300hp chevy 4.3 is backwards. Like someone else said...if you spend 3k on a turbo400, it'll handle just about anything you toss at it. If the housing market/ interest only market takes a hit, watch for sweet deals, they'll be plentiful.

this is always a fun subject. lots of good thoughts so far.

But first and foremost, for ANY of these things to come true, we need to keep the dunes open....and somehow wrest some more away from the eco nazi's who insist they know more than we do. So, if you want to see some of these predictions come true, then do whatever it is you can do..donate money, time, product, whatever to any of the great organizations out there who are working very hard to keep our right to play in the sand.

So, assuming the good guys win, I agree that the "entry level" cars will become more sophisticated...better suspensions, motors etc. I think it's possible that competition will force the price down a little bit, but I doubt there is a huge mark up in the entry level cars as it is today.

I think the upper end will continue to push the power limits of even those "indestructable" transaxles, till they too self destruct. I can remember back in the early 70's, transaxles were a weak point...funny how some things never really change.

I also agree that there will be more evolution than revolution in the coming years. But when you look back, it's possible that some of the changes may seem to have been revolutionary, as the cycle of evolution may speed up.

Although I like the idea of more "do it yourself" cars, I have a feeling the government may quash that even more, all in the name of "safety". I think one of the first steps is the registered fabricator requirement. I expect they will first make the special construction process so complicated and fraught with red tape that most will give up. Then, they will cite lack of use to completely eliminate this option. The enviro nazi's will also use this to make it as difficult as possible to get a registration, with some sort of stupid smog requirement, and possibly a "red sticker/green sticker" program. Were I a member of that disgusting cult, if I were losing on the land access front, I'd consider pushing the agenda of limiting "vehicles" to use all that land. Hopefully those organizations that we are all supporting will have some time to head that doomsday scenario off at the pass!!

On the economic bursting of the bubble. Yes, it'll happen, as everything is cyclical. Sometimes you have to take the risk to get the opportunity to do something. If I had to give back every one of my toys today, I wouldn't be happy about it, but for the rest of my life I would at least have the satisfaction of having experienced not only the best place in the world, but the best people in the world..duners. So I don't knock someone who's stretched themselves out to get to the dunes, and to enjoy all that Mother G has to offer. It's a heck of a lot better than blowing it all on gambling in Las Vegas or a few closets full of trendy clothes.

Great thoughts about the future of the buggy world. Except the bursting bubble part. If/when that happens it will have to be dealt with. The industry may thin a little, but it will survive.

Two things I wanted to comment on.

The magnetic fluid shocks is one. I know at least one major buggy builder has been working on that for a while now (and it's not us). Cost will likely determine if that gets to the market anytime soon. But it's good to know it is being considered.

The other is transaxles. That is in my view the biggest problem we have today (and it seems a lot of you agree). I'm friends with the guys from a company that said they have the knowledge and machinery to build a trans maybe 10-20% stronger than a Mendi 2D for about a grand less. Well that would be a step in the right direction but... for one they are guessing on the strength and price because they haven't built one yet. And for two, it's a HUGE investment in time and money. And if after all that time and money the trans turns out to be a flop... well, you get the idea.

I guess that's why some of the richest people are the ones that take the biggest risks. Albeit most are calculated risks, but still risks. How many of you would spend $500,000 to develop a trans better than a 2D that you only profited $1000 off of each one? Those numbers are made up of course, but you get the idea.

Less Green Sticker land = more street legal buggies.

More street legal buggies = lower hp & torque capacities and more vehicle weight.

Rising gas prices = more pump gas tuned engines. For fun do a search here on "pump gas" and modify the search criteria to 365 days and older. I got 8 pages of Topics. Then change it to search 365 days and newer. I got 8 pages. This really makes a statement. I wonder how old the forum is?

Pump Gas engines make less HP and torque = Less need for aggressive transaxle R&D and greater need for suspension performance to perform more finesse driving. But then again if vehicles are heavier I could be wrong about transaxle development.

Lower HP & Torque = grater importance of HP to weight ratio, which = greater popularity in 4 banner, aluminum/carbon fiber materials and CAD engineered design and modern failure analysis. More emphasis on eking the last bit of hp with new microprocessors and new algorithms/map variables. I also see fly-by-wire technology trickling down to us in the form of aftermarket electronic throttle control kits and more electronic shifting technology.

I see Baja Mexico actively marketing to us very soon. Catering more to off-road racing and recreation = vehicles that can run on piss gas, big gas tanks and storage for camping gear that accommodate big multi-day excursions away from base camp.

I also predict we will see a multitude of fiberglass/carbon fiber body kits that replicate favorite street cars and trucks = less emphasis on attractive tubular chassis appearance and more emphasis on making the chassis strong, light and made to fit within a wide verity of body kits (standardized mount pattern).

Then again we could be headed to 600hp and above realm.

I don't forsee any pop. Funco's been doing this too long to secure the fact. We've been in business since 83, although we've filled in the gaps a few times in the rollercoaster of business. I forsee, a huge explosion ahead. Right now it's just a slow steady climb.

I think it's just a matter of time until Mendeola has a competitor that is a hair cheaper. I don't think the Megasand has proven itself yet, and someone's got to
step up to the plate to fill the demand. I'd be curious to see if the Mendeola would drop in price if this happens.

I go along with some things already said....air conditioning (thought this would have allready happened)....SMOG CHECK....(they will get to this at some point)....builder shake out...((50% of them will be gone).....tighter restrictions on rideable areas with increased costs for use will take a lot of people out of duning...

enjoy what you see now because it won't last...

Just when you think it cant possibly get any better it does, always. I remember in the R/C world when the JrX2 came out I said, "this is it, just cant get any better!" Heh, unreal wheres its at now. Our cars will be the same because people are always thinking about something.

How fast was Top Fuel 10 years ago? Not even close to what it is today.

Would like to see lighter, more nimble, high HP, LTs.


BUT WE HAVE THEM TODAY!!!



The 2 seat mini rails with the turbo Hyabussa (SP?) engines are unreal. Why are'nt they dominating?

I think it is because we can afford heavy. Big. Huge graphics.
when the financial picture changes, my prediction is that the time proven mini-super-rails will be in HUGE demand. Not only for cost reasons or even for fuel reasons, but what about that transmission detail?

TITANIUM! Its a b**** to machine and more expensive than steel, for now... if China keeps it up, Steel could be at the same price point as Ti. I foresee a re-emergence in Ti parts, and accessories. As a bonus, the Chinese will have a harder time coping our parts if they are specifically designed with Ti.

Tranny's are expensive because everything in them is expensive and labor intensive. Steel is Expensive and has increased 250% in the last year or so. Gear hobbing is expensive, and Heat treating is expensive. The final close tolerance machining and grinding is labor intensive and expensive. Hardened steel plays hell on VERY expensive tools. The knowledge of transmissions is expensive to gain and disseminate.

That said, EDM and 5th axis machining centers are rapidly advancing and making the Gear hobbing/grinding much easier. They get the product out faster with more precision than ever before. You still have to account for overhead, as these machines go for $500,000. The price for good tranny's will likely remain high for the foreseeable future.

The housing market will turn down ugly street in the next year, it could get violent. It will not only negatively affect the buggy market, but will hamper growth in all markets. 67% of all the mortgages for 2004 and the first quarter of 2005 are ARM's and interest only.

When Alan Greenspan gets "Jiggy" with the interest rates its going to get ugly. Residential markets have shot up 15% in the last quarter. That is absolutely ridiculous! The housing market is unsustainable. The finance trickery to get people into homes they can't afford and home equity loans on 90% of the homes CURRENT market value is even worse. Its all smoke and mirrors.

YEAH, My TRAXXAS REVO KICKS ASS!!!!! way cooler than my orig. R/C10

I would say about 80 to 90% of the peeps have intrrest only loans and lines of credit.Maybe I'm crazy but WHY would the fed raise the intrrest rates so HIGH that it would destroy EVERYONE.I myself would like to know is there some magic ball that says that this is going to happen? KNOWONE can truely say that unless there Mr. Greenspan .I live in San Diego and the housing market is crazy builders are putting up home everywhere.I just don't see that being stopped anytime soon.
nad I personly know this is going on alll of Cali and Az.I think what will happen is rates will go up and probly stay there a while cause like some of you have said evrything comes in cycles.The main people that are going to suffer on this will be the people that have very lage equity lines.

lol i hear ya on that
my new fg 1/5 scale marder is better than anything i had as a kid especially my tamiya super champ.

I think some one is going to come out with a Mendeola clone for less money because we all know that they don't cost as much as they do to manufacture.

I understand that they needed make up for the r&d cost but I think that has happen many times over, they got a hold of the market and are squeezing it dry. Time will tell

IMHO the future of Rails is towards dual and triple sport "Hot Rods" ...more of a MPV; not just "sand only"

(at least thats the trend we see here at V8Rail... )