Has anyone heard about Daniel Pattersons fight with the military? Apparently he's opposed to manuevers, training, weapons testing, etc... being held in the desert/dunes. I would think that this would be a rather stupid fight considering the present mood of the country concerning the military. Does this man care more for the animals and plants of the desert than the lives of Americans? If anyone has any more info on this please let me know.
Chris
Full Version: D.P. fighting the military?
How much dirt on DP do you want? The best way to get it is straight from him without the middle man. Go to http://arizona.indymedia.org and do a quick search for "Daniel Patterson"
You'll find all sorts of gems from DP including:
At least one of his arrests
The statement that "Cops cause riots" (Even though he is calling for stronger law enforcement at the dunes to prevent riots.)
His campaing for AZ state office where he placed legalization of drugs above protection of the environment (even though he cites drug use in the dunes as a reason they should be shut down.)
Statements from DP that we should basically stop protecting the Mexican border.
Statements by DP encouraging people to NOT pay the demo fee on public lands (Even though he cites people not paying at the dunes as an example of why we should be closed out since we're lawless rebels.)
Lots of pro-anarchy statements again despite his claims that we are the anti-law and order people.
And plenty of other good things showing that our friend is perfectally willing to say just about anything if the price is right.
It's also fun to put his e-mail addresses and name into general search engines like google.com and see what you can find. But for legal reasons I can't really discuss some of those things just now
You'll find all sorts of gems from DP including:
At least one of his arrests
The statement that "Cops cause riots" (Even though he is calling for stronger law enforcement at the dunes to prevent riots.)
His campaing for AZ state office where he placed legalization of drugs above protection of the environment (even though he cites drug use in the dunes as a reason they should be shut down.)
Statements from DP that we should basically stop protecting the Mexican border.
Statements by DP encouraging people to NOT pay the demo fee on public lands (Even though he cites people not paying at the dunes as an example of why we should be closed out since we're lawless rebels.)
Lots of pro-anarchy statements again despite his claims that we are the anti-law and order people.
And plenty of other good things showing that our friend is perfectally willing to say just about anything if the price is right.
It's also fun to put his e-mail addresses and name into general search engines like google.com and see what you can find. But for legal reasons I can't really discuss some of those things just now
heh... has his cell phone number and everything.... and I just got my new 2.4ghz antenna too.... hmmmmm
(Blue - I'm not editing your message. Just changing the URL you provided to a link so the page won't go so wide)
Link to ASA BBS Message Thread
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Blue we're all STILL waiting for your proof that the PMV or any other dune inhabitants (other than us) is in danger for any reason other than they have evlolved to live ONLY in the dunes.
You keep talking about declining numbers but when you are asked to give proof start talking about how OHV users must all be wife beaters. When someone then makes a blanket claim about enviros you cry foul.
Can't you even stop and let your brain actually kick into gear for 10 seconds and see that you're doing the exact same things you claim everyone else is?
Please - either put up or shut up because it's getting freaking old hearing your same old BS day in and day out with no actual answers.
Where is the proof that plants and animals in the dunes are declining in numbers?
And don't even go spouting the ECOS study again which even your side has admitted is flawed.
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Jason Hitesman
jason@hitesman.com
http://www.hitesman.com/jason
bluesky
4th Gear Member
139 Posts Posted - 04/01/2002 : 10:26:19 AM
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OFFROAD VEHICLE IMPACTS ON ANIMALS
by Robert C. Stebbins in “The California Desert” edited by Latting and Rowlands, 1995
"Luckenbach and Bury (1983) studied the impact of offroad vehicles on the plant and animal life of the Algodones Dunes southeast of the Salton Sea, in an area of heavy ORV use. The portion of this dune system in the California desert is some 40 miles long, averages about 5 to 6 miles wide, and rises to a height of around 300 feet. It has a northwest-southwest oriented long axis. State Highway 78 crosses the dunes about 12 miles from their northern tip. Most of the dunes on the north side of the road are closed to offroad vehicles, whereas those on the south side are open. The open area has been used by dune-buggies and other ORVs with increasing intensity since the 1960s. Although the dunes on the north side were used somewhat by ORVs prior to their closure, use was light and little damage to the biota occurred during that period. Luckenbach and Bury compared the abundance and diversity of animals in 6 paired plots (one member of each pair in the impacted area, the other in the control area) along Highway 78 and Gecko Road, on the west side of the dunes. Their findings indicate disastrous effects on both plants and animals in the areas of heavy offroad vehicle use and a reduction of biota in areas of even minor ORV use. In the combined control areas, all animals studied were far more abundant than in the impacted areas. Arthropods, chiefly beetles, averaged 24 times more abundant , kangaroo rats 2 times, cottontail rabbits 10 times, kit foxes 2 times, lizards over 3 times and the specialized "sand swimming" fringe-toed lizards, confined to areas of fine, loose sand, 5 times more abundant. The lizards and kangaroo rats were sampled directly, but the arthropod, rabbit and kit fox densities were based on sweeping long, 1 1/2 foot wide swaths across the dunes at dusk and counting tracks the next morning. On several of the impacted plots the vertebrate animals had nearly been eliminated."
this was admittedly quite a few years ago. have conditions for animals improved since then?"
[This message has been edited by jhitesma (edited 04-02-2002).]
Link to ASA BBS Message Thread
"--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blue we're all STILL waiting for your proof that the PMV or any other dune inhabitants (other than us) is in danger for any reason other than they have evlolved to live ONLY in the dunes.
You keep talking about declining numbers but when you are asked to give proof start talking about how OHV users must all be wife beaters. When someone then makes a blanket claim about enviros you cry foul.
Can't you even stop and let your brain actually kick into gear for 10 seconds and see that you're doing the exact same things you claim everyone else is?
Please - either put up or shut up because it's getting freaking old hearing your same old BS day in and day out with no actual answers.
Where is the proof that plants and animals in the dunes are declining in numbers?
And don't even go spouting the ECOS study again which even your side has admitted is flawed.
----
Jason Hitesman
jason@hitesman.com
http://www.hitesman.com/jason
bluesky
4th Gear Member
139 Posts Posted - 04/01/2002 : 10:26:19 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OFFROAD VEHICLE IMPACTS ON ANIMALS
by Robert C. Stebbins in “The California Desert” edited by Latting and Rowlands, 1995
"Luckenbach and Bury (1983) studied the impact of offroad vehicles on the plant and animal life of the Algodones Dunes southeast of the Salton Sea, in an area of heavy ORV use. The portion of this dune system in the California desert is some 40 miles long, averages about 5 to 6 miles wide, and rises to a height of around 300 feet. It has a northwest-southwest oriented long axis. State Highway 78 crosses the dunes about 12 miles from their northern tip. Most of the dunes on the north side of the road are closed to offroad vehicles, whereas those on the south side are open. The open area has been used by dune-buggies and other ORVs with increasing intensity since the 1960s. Although the dunes on the north side were used somewhat by ORVs prior to their closure, use was light and little damage to the biota occurred during that period. Luckenbach and Bury compared the abundance and diversity of animals in 6 paired plots (one member of each pair in the impacted area, the other in the control area) along Highway 78 and Gecko Road, on the west side of the dunes. Their findings indicate disastrous effects on both plants and animals in the areas of heavy offroad vehicle use and a reduction of biota in areas of even minor ORV use. In the combined control areas, all animals studied were far more abundant than in the impacted areas. Arthropods, chiefly beetles, averaged 24 times more abundant , kangaroo rats 2 times, cottontail rabbits 10 times, kit foxes 2 times, lizards over 3 times and the specialized "sand swimming" fringe-toed lizards, confined to areas of fine, loose sand, 5 times more abundant. The lizards and kangaroo rats were sampled directly, but the arthropod, rabbit and kit fox densities were based on sweeping long, 1 1/2 foot wide swaths across the dunes at dusk and counting tracks the next morning. On several of the impacted plots the vertebrate animals had nearly been eliminated."
this was admittedly quite a few years ago. have conditions for animals improved since then?"
[This message has been edited by jhitesma (edited 04-02-2002).]
BS - You've got to give a LOT more info about that study if you expect an reasoned response. From what you posted it sure sounds like they studied the south dunes only in the areas immediately surrounding Gecko Rd. That is easily the most heavily used area of the entire dune system and quite a small percentage of the total dune area.
If you can't see what's wrong with that method of study (which I doubt you can) then it's still completely pointless to even attempt to discuss this with you.
If you can't see what's wrong with that method of study (which I doubt you can) then it's still completely pointless to even attempt to discuss this with you.
It's probably also beyond your comprehension that the quote you are providing is so biased it's laughable.
Look where it's coming from. A quote from a person you provided us with quotes from proving that they are heavily biased in A book prepared by two people who you have also provided us with quotes from proving that they are against any use of the desert quoting a questionable study by two people who a search of the internet reveals are also heavily biased.
But of course if I provided you with "facts" by someone with their own pro-ohv agenda in an article by someone with a pro-ohv agenda appearing in a book written by someone else with a pro-ohv agenda I'm sure you'd find plenty of problems with it.
I have on the other hand provided you with a study performed by someone who has a history of being pro-ESA with quite a few listings under their belt that says the PMV (the plant in question regarding dune closures) is in no danger at all despite the CBD's claims that it is nearly extinct.
Once again - you are making extrodinary claims but providing less than average proof while denying average claims backed by extrodinary proof.
Did you ever get a passing grade in a science course the entire time you were in school? It seems you have absolutely no grasp of logic or science whatsoever. Or is it just an act to try and get people upset so you can get some choice quotes to continue to try and slander the entire OHV community based on the actions of a few while decrying those who would slander the environmental community based on the actions of many?
Look where it's coming from. A quote from a person you provided us with quotes from proving that they are heavily biased in A book prepared by two people who you have also provided us with quotes from proving that they are against any use of the desert quoting a questionable study by two people who a search of the internet reveals are also heavily biased.
But of course if I provided you with "facts" by someone with their own pro-ohv agenda in an article by someone with a pro-ohv agenda appearing in a book written by someone else with a pro-ohv agenda I'm sure you'd find plenty of problems with it.
I have on the other hand provided you with a study performed by someone who has a history of being pro-ESA with quite a few listings under their belt that says the PMV (the plant in question regarding dune closures) is in no danger at all despite the CBD's claims that it is nearly extinct.
Once again - you are making extrodinary claims but providing less than average proof while denying average claims backed by extrodinary proof.
Did you ever get a passing grade in a science course the entire time you were in school? It seems you have absolutely no grasp of logic or science whatsoever. Or is it just an act to try and get people upset so you can get some choice quotes to continue to try and slander the entire OHV community based on the actions of a few while decrying those who would slander the environmental community based on the actions of many?
1. I complain that OHvers are destroying habitat on public lands.
2. You say "show me the proof"
3. I post an article and cite it.
4. you say it's not valid because it was part of the ECOS study that was later found to be flawed.
5. I show that it was not part of the ECOS study.
6. You post this excuse:
"BS - You've got to give a LOT more info about that study if you expect an reasoned response. From what you posted it sure sounds like they studied the south dunes only in the areas immediately surrounding Gecko Rd. That is easily the most heavily used area of the entire dune system and quite a small percentage of the total dune area.
If you can't see what's wrong with that method of study (which I doubt you can) then it's still completely pointless to even attempt to discuss this with you."(by jhitesma)
what you mean is you can't refute it.
2. You say "show me the proof"
3. I post an article and cite it.
4. you say it's not valid because it was part of the ECOS study that was later found to be flawed.
5. I show that it was not part of the ECOS study.
6. You post this excuse:
"BS - You've got to give a LOT more info about that study if you expect an reasoned response. From what you posted it sure sounds like they studied the south dunes only in the areas immediately surrounding Gecko Rd. That is easily the most heavily used area of the entire dune system and quite a small percentage of the total dune area.
If you can't see what's wrong with that method of study (which I doubt you can) then it's still completely pointless to even attempt to discuss this with you."(by jhitesma)
what you mean is you can't refute it.
Hey BS I bet if I study the area in front of your house where the street is, I would find nothing growing there...
hey check it out man, somebody is playing edit "big time". Anybody else seen some posts come and go in this thread?
If they are it's not me. All the messages that were here last time I check in still are. I've been thinking about moving the last few too a new thread though since as normal BS is pulling one of his regular stunts and trying to change the subject.
But there dosen't seem to be a way to move threads easily.
BTW - If I ever do have to edit or 'remove' anything I'd leave the blank message behind as a place holder.
But there dosen't seem to be a way to move threads easily.
BTW - If I ever do have to edit or 'remove' anything I'd leave the blank message behind as a place holder.
I guess what happened, jason, is you made your first post, which I answered and then you made your second post while I was pushing the buttons to register my post, so everything disappeared for a few mins. Now it's all back.
Pale one,
If you're comparing a paved street to the OHV areas at Glamis, I guess you're admitting that your activities ARE threatening the habitats of wild creatures which is what we have been discussing here.
Jason, I'm still waiting for you to refute the assertions made in the Luckenbach and Bury report. Why shouldn't they have compared high impact areas with the control areas? Isn't that what you asked for? Proof that the effects of OHV rec on the desert is removing animals from the land.
If you're comparing a paved street to the OHV areas at Glamis, I guess you're admitting that your activities ARE threatening the habitats of wild creatures which is what we have been discussing here.
Jason, I'm still waiting for you to refute the assertions made in the Luckenbach and Bury report. Why shouldn't they have compared high impact areas with the control areas? Isn't that what you asked for? Proof that the effects of OHV rec on the desert is removing animals from the land.
Blu, the area along Gecko Road west of the dunes is what they call a sand highway.
What you might call an existing route.
I have seen coyotes there in the early AM.
Even on big weekends. Most of the time I sleep in the back of my truck or on the trailer, so they wake me up.
I've also seen many of those little spotted bunghole beetles and something that glows under blacklight and likes to sting feet. Right there on the camping pads.
What you might call an existing route.
I have seen coyotes there in the early AM.
Even on big weekends. Most of the time I sleep in the back of my truck or on the trailer, so they wake me up.
I've also seen many of those little spotted bunghole beetles and something that glows under blacklight and likes to sting feet. Right there on the camping pads.
Blue, if you're not even going to bother reading my replies why should I bother making more?
Please - if you want to discuss this start a new topic, in this thread your posts are extremely off topic and while I do not want to delete them I will if I have to. ( I would move them into a new topic in the process but it would be awfully ugly since there is no clean mechanism for moving messages on this BBS.)
Please - if you want to discuss this start a new topic, in this thread your posts are extremely off topic and while I do not want to delete them I will if I have to. ( I would move them into a new topic in the process but it would be awfully ugly since there is no clean mechanism for moving messages on this BBS.)
Does BS live in a house? I had the feeling that he was renting an apartment in Santa Monica.
OK so where is the study showed that the animals that were on the South side (OHV side) moved across the road and are living very happily? I believe it's called migration. (that means they moved not that they were destroyed) Give your precious wild life credit for being able to adapt.
Saw 2 coyotes and one fox at wash 10 around mid-night on 3-26-02. That's proof to me that people are scaring them away.
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