These guys moved in to a shop here and finally rolled out their first car.
According one of them, they built everything and are using gearone.
The car "ready to go cept motor" would sell for around 16K - I asked about alum and he wasnt sure. One of the guys working there is a grad from Wizards school. Young group - but that shouldnt matter should it....

Here are some pics I took. What do you guys think? Im just posting this for reactions - I dont know them and vice versa. Personally - I would not own one - but thats just my .02.

couple a more

trailing arm look real long?

Pass........

For the love of god is that single sheer(sp) on those shock mounts. Ohh hell no! Ok just kidding, Im not really big on the geometry of the suspension all around. But hell untill I see a final product in the dunes I will leave my opinions open.

Aaron

Last pic upper left, the welds look alittle on the messy side.

Their is now way that trailing arm is going to hold up. I dont like the way its designed at all.

Gotta agree.

I nominate Jimmy for test pilot.
If he cant brake it, they'll sell thousands

They look nice and light, perfect for a 1915cc VW engine.

What size tubing are they using, that front end looks very questionable, and the rear arms look long with alot of tubing but still looks questionable. Not sure what to think if it's the first one give them time. Every builder has that first car!!!!

At first glance it looks high and narrow but I'm shure it will droop some when its complete with tranny and engine etc.

What else do you do with all of your scrap pieces?


I agree with Chummin, I wouldn't buy one. I'd also like to add that it is better looking in terms of design than quite a few of the other chassis I've seen posted here.

I think there are far too many people trying to be polite and saying "it looks great!" to be encouraging. I'd rather see honest, constructive criticism along with the encouragement. Somebody you know may get injured due to poor design.

It has a lift kit on it sorry but I had too I dont like it so I wouldn't buy one. those trailing arms look weird too. Ok enough who's next

To me the cage looks a little narrow. Is that a bad thing? Not really just personal preference. It looks like the rear trailing arms were designed to use a standard offset paddle tire, not the min offset like what is shown. Is this design poor? I will go back and look at some pics that I have from the SSSS and I think that buckshot made some arms similuar, made to run the standard offset wheels, but they looked a little bit different. I'm not a big fan of the front arms. While I like the true A arms I would build the arms a little different, cut down on some of the material, cause they don't need to be that big. Honestly not a bad job for the first time out, at least it doesn't look like he is copying someones design. Would I market the first chasis that came out of my shop? Not good business sense, but then again there are plenty of people that have no sense and would buy an unproven chasis.
To the builder I would say, looks like a good start, but don't think that you have a perferct design after 40 hours of bending and welding some tube. Refine your design, do lots of testing and you will find out if any of your designs need to be changed.

What I don't think is well designed is pretty much the entire front of the chassis, I've seen far more support for the front stress points from designs using equal amount of tubing. The rear arms contain to many small pieces, too much chance for failure at each weld. The welds do not look as good as I'd like.

The rear arm lower shock mount does not look sturdy.

The overall triangulation could be better. JMHO, I'm no engineer.

Looks like the front arm are the same lenght top and bottom. With as much travel as it looks to have that could get ugly on the camber curve and steering geometry.

The rear arms are crazy. the leverage alone on such a long arm could spell disaster. Plus the inner pivot is angled like a stock IRS pivot wich will bind up pretty bad if not set up properly.

Overall it looks decent. but I would skip.

I gotta admire them for throwing down and trying. More than I can say for myself.


What would be really interesting is if a major builder came out with a new chassis nobody has seen and someone posted it up here as a no name new builder car.

In my eyes, it's either good or bad. I don't really care about names.

I couldnt agree more. But it would be interesting to see what people said.

I remember when I had my shop, A good friend of mine had a shop of his own, some liked his work, some liked ours.

We swapped jobs once and I did a rear sub-frame at his shop and he did one at mine. Yet people still had the same opinion of the work.... the same peeps still didnt like his but liked mine (the one he did) and vice versa....

It was comical to listen to the comments at shows. we still laugh about that one.

"A" for effort, but they need to get some more experience. Design, craftsmanship, etc... all need to be improved.

That is comical!


I don't have the knowledge or experience yet to immediately identify someone's work, but I once took my rail to Mirage Racing to get some nitrogen in the shocks. As soon as I dropped the ramp door, Bill Varnes immediately said, "Oh... one of Danny Foddrill's chassis!" I about had a stroke, nobody else seemed to know anything about it.

Then he looked closer at the tig welds and said, "Danny welded this himself. It's like his signature." When I asked how he knew this so well, he said, "We've known each other and been racing for 25 years, it's pretty easy."

This last trip to Rocky Pt, Mex. there was a 4 seater, LS1 powered race car (no idea what class) that I was very drawn to, it looked like a much improved, beefier version of my car. Lots of differences but more similarities. The welds looked the same, great.

The owner came out and we talked a bit, turns out, it was a Foddrill race car. I really liked it, but way too expensive for me.



But this also relates to chassis design and welding skill. Some people have a real talent for it, like an interior designer. You either have it or you don't. One might be competent, but there are those who are truly talented and it's easy to tell the difference.

If you click on the pics, you can see the BIG ones..

There rear arms will bend at the shock mount without something in there to support them (triangulation). I bent my arms from Eagle on my old car and they were similar in set up - Boxed the new arms and it was good to go.

One thing I noticed - entire car is MIG welded and many of them are FUGLY and have all kinds of gaps and holes - he said it was a hurry project so fine - He claimed the next ones will be TIG welded - Actually there was two TIGs on the car and its where the trailing arms meet the frame on the inside.

They made all the tabs etc and many of those are still hard to look at (very square vs smooth on the frame).

Notice the steering box and plate for the tie rods - Its at like a 15 degree angle down. Not sure what they are or were doing - but I've never seen that before.

The Top shock mounts are in a different angle then the bottom ones on the front and not by a few degrees. I dont know if that matters or not - but it stood out to me.

The front end just seems to be missing something between all the parralel bars.. not sure what though.

They guys said they popped this one out in a week and .... I didnt post the name of the company - cause - well - I dont know it and its not important.

I agree in that they get props for getting up and moving - Hopefully they can get out for testing and refinements before the money runs out.

They need to go back to school!

I'm guessing part of the problem is they don't want to look like anyone else.

Unfortunately, there aren't that many new ways to skin the cat.

I'm not trying to bash anyone but it took me and other new welders a good 3 months at 45 hours in a weld booth (in 95 degrees what seems like hell) to have decent welds, only welding no fab. If I remember correctly about 6-8 months
I was looking as good as the best guy we had. I guess my point is Wizard school
is what a six month course for $6,500, what basics can you learn in six months?
I don't think your going to get the hands on experience(to build buggys) you need unless you just want to make 10 bucks an hour at a local shop.This industry is small, and doesn't pay well.

You need to put up or shut up!

I dont see you building anything.

Besides this co. didnt come on here and say hey look what I built. I believe chummin posted this topic.

Unless I'm blind, the trailing arm front pivots travel in two different directions.

This can't be good.

sTOP it.

I find it interesting, that although the car may not look cool to some, those same people say it wont work either. How do you know? My point is this: Unless your an engineer or builder and you know for sure what your talking about, your opinion has little too no merit. There are several well known builders that have proven, yes,there are many different ways to skin a cat. That diversity makes everyones car and design unique. If it does not work, than its fixed or they fail and go out of business. Period! I would get more enjoyment out of hearing a couple "professional" builders debating the issue of strength than a bunch of laymen.

I would love nothing more than to read this forum and find facts (wishful thinking I know). I wish, that for every new topic in Sand Rail Tech, you could make a choice as to where you wanted to read. If I want a bunch of BS, then I go to the BS section. If I want to read facts or opinions based on facts, then I do so. I'm not trying to start any debate or any $hit. I enjoy and admire the effort of many people who subscribe to this forum. I just hope for a little change. My humble .02 , Good luck to all the new guys. We admire your effort. JT

It would be interesting to see other builder's first attempt posted on the board for all to critique.

Hat's off to them for giving it a go. Hopefully this is their prototype, and they will learn a lot.

has some issues but is a good start. those rear arms need some work

Amen.

Say what you mean and Leave their feelings for Mr. Rogers to mend. This is a technical forum and it's a great place to get honest criticism. Too many people get all hurt.

And just because there are businesses building cars out there doesn't mean that they know what they're doing.

And by the same token, I've read posts from some out there that know more than enough to build a great product, but choose not to.

Carl

We laughed at...
I mean
They laughed at Funco!

THEY WILL GET BETTER AT BUILDING IF THEY LAST, BUT FOR NOW
I WOULDN'T PUT SOME ONE IN IT..........JUST MY 2 CENTS

Me Too!!!

I am not an engineer and don't consider myself an expert, but I have talked to a few builders about why they placed this tube here and used that thickness of material there, etc. I tried to absorb it all because it really interests me.

There are builders who read here, but I really doubt any are going to come on here and give their honest opinion because some people can't distinguish an honest critique from bashing.

I made observations of what I thought of the design based on the pics. This doesn't mean they can't learn more and produce a better one in terms of strength, rigidity or handling.

I honestly think I could take that thing out and break it in 1 or more of at least 4 different places. There are a lot of quality cars out there that I think would be nearly impossible to break, or would take so much force to do it I don't want to be in the car when it happens.


Yes, there are many ways to skin a cat. But if you end up with a room splattered in furry pulp, then dynamite was probably not one of the best methods to do it.

the only thing I see wrong with it, is the bolts in the upper front a-arm pivots are too long.

OUCH ! pretty brutal IPO,,,,,


I think we should wait untill the final product is unveiled !. Looks like a good start , and with some boxing and attention to detail who knows ?????????.

I might have waited a little longer to unvail something like this !. Especially on this board !!!!!! JMO.




.

There is a reason the company name is not put here - it was a car put out in front - I took a few pics and had some concerns - Posted and looks like many others had/have teh same concerns.
Who knows whats in the future for these guys, but if its on display and your trying to sell me one, I consider that a ready to go in public..

I do wish them the best of luck and hopefully the road there is not as bumpy as the base of olds..

Understood!

pass....ugly.


Looks like a rip on a few designs, but badly pieced together

Curious what you guys think of the people coming from the wizard school?
I know of one sand car shop that has had a few employees from there and they were NOT at all impressed.They didn't know the basic skill of how to make templates to create a tab or bracket.First things first.

I think you'll be lucky to weld decent in six months at a few days a week.It's
years of hands on experience that you need.I just can't imagine how someone
starting from scratch could learn this trade in six months from these classes
even if he offers overtime, good luck.

I agree completely. I laugh every time I see the Wizard Fab School advertisements (nothing against Wizard Fab at all). It's like people think that they can take this simple class and then they are expert welders. Welding isn't something you can "learn" I mean you can learn the THEORY of how to hold a torch, how to make, heat, and maintain a puddle, and how to run a perfect bead. But in the end, it all comes down to natural talent. Some got it...and some don't. You can't teach someone how to "feel" what the metal is going to do, and you can't teach someone to have a steady hand, or how to move. The technique can be explained, but some people....MOST people just can't do it. It's like painting. You can't teach someone how much paint to spray, before they run the paint. And you can't tell someone how close they can hold the airbrush, in relation to how fast they move their hand. The technique and eye-hand cordination has to already be there. Does any of this make sense???

Yes, like I was saying before at 45 hours a week stuck in a welding booth it took
me some where around six months to compare to our best welder and thats only
speeking of clean welds(mig only) with good penetration.I still was only comparable, atleast I thought until I saw him weld a ramp for the forklift 10 feet
wide beads,(Diamond plate welded to square tubing) looked like art to me proffesional perfection. Throw in suspension geometry and chassis design, good luck.

I agree.....

pretty scary

Can there actually be a school that will impart the needed information? Yup, you bet. But will it impart the needed intuition? I think not.
The trainer will teach the info as he sees it.

This is an area that the student should be getting an acredited training for his money.

Carl

This is a great topic in itself. The proper training of a fabricator. How should it be done? School or experience? How much of both?

I'll throw my .02 in here for them. The front needs some sort of bulk head to beef it up. It also looks to me like the it completely flat. I should kick up some in the front to help with turning. The rear arms look dangerous to me. I would rethink those completely. It takes a great deal of time to come up with a design, this probably wasn't the first design they drew up. Plus the time to make the frame and make changes along the way. For the first roller not to bad in my opinion. Do some serious testing though, it could use more beef at places with it being a long travel car. I'm no expert, just someone that builds his own frames.

I've looked and talked to many of the students. Seen their actual work as well as looked at the work of those who've graduated and started their own companies and here's how i look at it. Wizard fab is trying to instruct people with basic building skills. The problem i see is that when the students are done, they think they are sandcar builders. Several just up and start their own companies after 6 months of training. What those students NEED to understand (or be instructed, that's a matter of debate) is that they have just completed a course with the BARE MINIMUM BASICS. They need to get on with reputable builders so they can be trained how to progress, develop a style, understand not only the improtance of quality fabrication but styling. If they have an opportunity to work for 4 or 5 years with different builders they could see a variety of styles and learn "in depth" the different ways to build a car. Then with that, they could open their own shop and see where it goes.

It just get's me how some of these guys go in, learn how to weld for the very first time, leave and then think they can charge $85,000 for a Sandcar.

While I was in college for software engineering - the school was alsways telling us the demand for us and how much we will make out of the box. 6 figures is easy and all kinds of crap - the young guns bit hard - the older guys took it with a grain of salt..

Come graduation - 1 guy secured a job for almost 100K and was laid off a few months in to it.. The rest were starting at 1/2 that and thats when reality set in.. There is no replacement for knowledge AND experience. One or the other just doesnt cut it.