Full Version: Why all this fuss
Why is there so much fuss about saving so many things on this planet. Isn't the planet dieing anyways due to the ozone layer deteriorating. Why dont you greenies start there because the way i see its not worth saving the small things if we dont even have an ozone to protect us and all the life on this planet.
Isn't the Ozone Depletion still a theory? I know global warming is. Anyway. I think the is PLENTY of wilderness in the vast regions of this country, other than CA that can be off limits. Just give the off road community some play room......Look, if it wasn't for us, no one would EVER go to some of the places they want to save. That is, of course, you are on a survival kick and want to hike 2 weeks into the forest and live off the wild, killing plants and animals because you have to eat. Stupid greenies
Bam Bam
why not try using some of the brain that makes you a higher developed hominid than an ape?
Just because we don't "use" a resource today doesn't mean that it's lost or is unproductive.
".Look, if it wasn't for us, no one would EVER go to some of the places they want to save. " by bam bam
as our population increases, these places will eventually be visited by people on foot or on some conveyance that doesn't impact the land so heavily as OHV rec.
why not try using some of the brain that makes you a higher developed hominid than an ape?
Just because we don't "use" a resource today doesn't mean that it's lost or is unproductive.
".Look, if it wasn't for us, no one would EVER go to some of the places they want to save. " by bam bam
as our population increases, these places will eventually be visited by people on foot or on some conveyance that doesn't impact the land so heavily as OHV rec.
NO your wrong bluesky... As our population increases they will build more housing communities and kill all the **** you are trying to save.
Last I heard the ozone hole theory didn't hold much ground... something about the size of the hole changing at different times of the year. . .
ok fine but do you all agree that there is a problem???
I have to respectfully disagree with you Bluesky. The impact on the land by OHV activity is much less than the impact of, say a housing developement, a mall, a sports stadium, a freeway, and countless other things. I know, your going to say, "Is your entertainment more important than an endangered species?" Well, yes, I think it is. There are thousands of species that no longer exist and went extinct long before man ever came into the picture. And species will continue to go extinct and new species will evolve. People riding off road vehicles in the desert and sand dunes do not have any adverse impact on the environment of this planet. Let's get real and stop crying, "The sky is falling, The sky is falling."
[This message has been edited by cr500cop (edited 04-14-2002).]
[This message has been edited by cr500cop (edited 04-14-2002).]
Oh, And another thing. If people want to hike in the sand dunes, then go hike on the north side of 78. There are 32,000 acres there. Leave the south side alone.
quoteQUOTEok fine but do you all agree that there is a problem???
Holes in the ozone are another natural thing. Different times of the year, etc.
It's not a problem.
Now, I read some junk science some years ago about people in a certain area of Portugal.
Junk science is a problem.
Enviros who use junk science in court are major problems.
Alright lemme ask ya something bluesky..
Do you drive a car to get to work everday or get around?
Do you use toliet paper to wipe your ass or do you go outside and use the leaves to save the damn trees?
Well your part of the whole damn problem! If you think that OHV hurt the world more then you driving your car around then your CRAZY! (forgot you already were) Why dont you and all your tree hugger friends take a nice hike to Hell and do all of us a favor. Were all gonna die anyways so lets all LIVE AND HAVE A GOOD TIME WHILE WE CAN!
Do you drive a car to get to work everday or get around?
Do you use toliet paper to wipe your ass or do you go outside and use the leaves to save the damn trees?
Well your part of the whole damn problem! If you think that OHV hurt the world more then you driving your car around then your CRAZY! (forgot you already were) Why dont you and all your tree hugger friends take a nice hike to Hell and do all of us a favor. Were all gonna die anyways so lets all LIVE AND HAVE A GOOD TIME WHILE WE CAN!
Look BlueSky. I don't like all the littering and trash that gets left in the desert. But you know what, I've gone to hiking to 13000. I found trash on top of Mount Hilgar, that peaks out at about 13,500ft. Now, you tell me that we should protect that peak and not let people go up there because people are screwing it up. "Save it for the children!!!" Oh, and there ARE TRAILS FROM THE FOOT TRAFFIC THAT GOES UP THERE. Just like the ones motorcycles leave. Don't try to tell me foot traffic doesn't "impact" the wild.
I know you saw that off road vehicals destroy the desert, but I don't thing they "destroy" it. They leave a mark, but that's life. Everything we do leaves a mark on the environment. If the off road people weren't using the dunes, they probably would never get visited. Did you read that artical the was posted in the other forum, the guys that were walking said it was a horrible walk. Who is going to do that? And I agree with DuneAddict, as our population increases, we'll just spread out, cut down more trees (which most trees used now is new growth) and build more neighborhoods, maybe even level out some more desert. Then we'll have to get rid of the dunes for people to live there and we got kicked out of it for nothing. But like CR500 said, why can't the few people that want to visit the dunes, go to the north side, OR, heck, why don't they just hike while there are people out there riding. Yes, it's noisy, but it's the desert, and you can't shut some desert down because some hiker wants it to be quiet and tranquil for his/her hike. BULL****!! Just leave us alone I say!!! We don't have that much area to ride as it is. I guarentee that out in most desert areas that got taken away from us, I won't EVER see 1 friggen camper out there enjoying the tranquil DESERT sun, sitting there, sipping iced tea, watching the desert turtle walk by, all the while thinking to himself/herself....AAHHHH this IS paradise, NOTHING beats the desert!!!
I know you saw that off road vehicals destroy the desert, but I don't thing they "destroy" it. They leave a mark, but that's life. Everything we do leaves a mark on the environment. If the off road people weren't using the dunes, they probably would never get visited. Did you read that artical the was posted in the other forum, the guys that were walking said it was a horrible walk. Who is going to do that? And I agree with DuneAddict, as our population increases, we'll just spread out, cut down more trees (which most trees used now is new growth) and build more neighborhoods, maybe even level out some more desert. Then we'll have to get rid of the dunes for people to live there and we got kicked out of it for nothing. But like CR500 said, why can't the few people that want to visit the dunes, go to the north side, OR, heck, why don't they just hike while there are people out there riding. Yes, it's noisy, but it's the desert, and you can't shut some desert down because some hiker wants it to be quiet and tranquil for his/her hike. BULL****!! Just leave us alone I say!!! We don't have that much area to ride as it is. I guarentee that out in most desert areas that got taken away from us, I won't EVER see 1 friggen camper out there enjoying the tranquil DESERT sun, sitting there, sipping iced tea, watching the desert turtle walk by, all the while thinking to himself/herself....AAHHHH this IS paradise, NOTHING beats the desert!!!
seems to me that the earth has been around for 4.6 billion years and the civilized world for only a couple hundred years, the earth will bring itself to equilibrium, thats whats its been doing for billions of years, whatever we do, drive poluting cars or ride ohv the earth will compensate. When a comet hits the earth, earth doesnt die it fixes itself. stop protecting everything.
[This message has been edited by drgbanshee (edited 04-16-2002).]
[This message has been edited by drgbanshee (edited 04-16-2002).]
I know a place that has almost 130,000 acres of sand dunes that are ALL off limits to OHV's... the Kelso Dunes. Go take a hike 
Dune riding VS hardpack riding.
Blu, what is more destructive in "your eyes" to the environment????
------------------
Do It In The DUNES!
ARE YOU AWAKE YET???
Dune riding VS hardpack riding.
Blu, what is more destructive in "your eyes" to the environment????
------------------
Do It In The DUNES!
ARE YOU AWAKE YET???
Bluesky must have gone for a hike in the dunes and got lost. Hasn't been on here lately to tell us all what a bunch of uncaring slobs we are.
I'm not a biologist. I read where there's lots of rare living things that have evolved to live at the Algodones dunes. To me, to threaten the existence of rare species is a no-no.
that said, I do feel that the wind does cover up your tracks, not many other users go to the dunes and they do have other areas if they are bothered by duners.
The rest of the land--desert, mountains, etc. is very vulnerable to habitat destruction and there are rare and important species threatened there as well. Also, the tracks made by off-roaders can take 100 years to recover. Lots of people like to hike and camp in the mountains and deserts and most of them don't want the noise and dust and tracks of off-road vehicles around.
So, If it weren't for the rare wildlife at Glamis, I wouldn't be buggin' you. I would be telling off-roaders "why don't you go to Glamis and give the rest of the areas a break!"
that said, I do feel that the wind does cover up your tracks, not many other users go to the dunes and they do have other areas if they are bothered by duners.
The rest of the land--desert, mountains, etc. is very vulnerable to habitat destruction and there are rare and important species threatened there as well. Also, the tracks made by off-roaders can take 100 years to recover. Lots of people like to hike and camp in the mountains and deserts and most of them don't want the noise and dust and tracks of off-road vehicles around.
So, If it weren't for the rare wildlife at Glamis, I wouldn't be buggin' you. I would be telling off-roaders "why don't you go to Glamis and give the rest of the areas a break!"
quote:
Originally posted by Bluesky:
So, If it weren't for the rare wildlife at Glamis, I wouldn't be buggin' you. I would be telling off-roaders "why don't you go to Glamis and give the rest of the areas a break!"
Blu, the "rare wildlife" in the Imperial Sand Dunes has 32,000 acres in the wilderness area. That is more than enough and every study I have seen shows that the wildlife is doing fine in the wilderness.
Leave our dunes alone.
the dunes belong to all Americans. Did you forget this? I own them just as much as you.
Why don't you leave my dunes alone?
Why don't you leave my dunes alone?
quote:
Originally posted by Bluesky:
the dunes belong to all Americans. Did you forget this? I own them just as much as you.
Why don't you leave my dunes alone?
You know what blu, you are beginning to try my civility. YOU HAVE NO F-N CLUE HOW MUCH I LOVE THE DUNES. YOU HAVE NO CLUE HOW MUCH ALL DUNERS, THE SEVERAL HUNDRED THOUSAND OF US, LOVE THE DUNES! AS FOR THE DUNES BELONGING TO AMERICANS, I AGREE, AND YOU ARE NOT A TRUE AMERICAN IF YOU WISH TO DEPRIVE US OF OUR FREEDOM TO RIDE THE DUNES THAT ARE LEGALLY OPEN TO OHVS.
BLU, I TAKE AN EXTREME EXCEPTION TO THE FACT THAT YOU CONSIDER THE DUNES YOURS AS MUCH AS MINE. I SPEND EVERY FREE WEEKEND I HAVE AT THE DUNES, ALL YEAR-ROUND! YOU DO NOT! I KNOW THE DUNES, I LOVE THE DUNES, I LIVE FOR THE DUNES! IT IS MY LIFE! I DO NOT, NOR DO OTHER DUNERS, HARM PLANTS OR OTHER WILDLIFE. GET OVER YOUR FALSE COMPLAINTS THAT WE HARM THE ENVIRONMENT. THE DUNES HAVE BEEN USED BY OHVS FOR OVER 50 YEARS AND ALL THE PLANT AND ANIMAL LIFE IS STILL THRIVING AS IT ALWAYS HAS.
BLU, THEY ARE "NOT" YOUR DUNES!!!!!!!!!!! NO F-N WAY!!!!!!!!! YOU DO NOT VISIT THESE DUNES ON A REGULAR BASIS, IF EVER (I SEEM TO REMEMBER A POST BY YOU SAYING YOU HAD NEVER ACTUALLY BEEN TO THE IMPERIAL SAND DUNES). THE IMPERIAL SAND DUNES ARE MY DUNES, AND THE DUNES OF MY FRIENDS. STAY OUT OF OUR DUNES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LEAVE OUR DUNES ALONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
YOU WANT TO HIKE IN THE DUNES? GO HIKE IN THE WILDERNESS AREA THAT IS SET ASIDE FOR YOUR TYPE. YEAH RIGHT BLU. YOU WILL NEVER HIKE IN THE WILDERNESS AREA.
BLU, DON'T EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, CALL OUR DUNES YOURS. YOU SLIME BAG LITTLE B!TCH, DON'T F WITH ME. THOSE ARE MY DUNES, NOT YOURS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BLU:
Since you have done a lot of reading about the dunes and stated you learned about all the rare species there...
I would like you to list FIVE rare species that live in the dunes.
Stumped? How about three?
I'll give you a little hint, don't respond with the Desert Tortoise as YOUR experts have already conceded that the dunes, and the surrounding area where we camp, ARE NOT Tortoise habitat! (this is documented fact)
I don't mind people like you having a differing opinion, but, reading skewed news releases by Daniel Patterson and trying to use that as a basis for your arguement....
Lastly, BLU, as the dunes riding opportunities get more and more restricted, you will find that OHV riders, who never ventured into the non-dune deserts before, will be forced to start riding in those more sensitive desert areas that you deem sacred. This means that, through your own efforts, the very thing your are against, more noise and trail proliferation in the desert, will be exacerbated by your efforts.
I hope you enjoy the sounds of a two-stroke in the morning....
In fact, I just put a set of knobby (desert) tires on my quad, this first time I've had the paddle (sand) tires off my quad in 6-7 years. It has been that long since I rode in the 'hard' desert.
I plan on going desert riding for the first time in 6-7 years this coming Sunday. I will be riding legally on established trails in a designated OHV area.
I am dedicating my return to desert riding trip to you! Without your posts, I probably would have never gone back to the desert, I was satisfied just riding in the dunes where there is no OHV impact. But, you made me realize that I better start riding as much as I can, before all the public land is closed.
Thanks Blu, and don't forget my question.
------------------
Tim Wight
Mesa, AZ.
Protect your right to ride in the dunes, join the:
American Sand Association
www.americansandassociation.org
Ignorance and Apathy are just as dangerous as an environmentalist with a cause and a lawyer!
Since you have done a lot of reading about the dunes and stated you learned about all the rare species there...
I would like you to list FIVE rare species that live in the dunes.
Stumped? How about three?
I'll give you a little hint, don't respond with the Desert Tortoise as YOUR experts have already conceded that the dunes, and the surrounding area where we camp, ARE NOT Tortoise habitat! (this is documented fact)
I don't mind people like you having a differing opinion, but, reading skewed news releases by Daniel Patterson and trying to use that as a basis for your arguement....
Lastly, BLU, as the dunes riding opportunities get more and more restricted, you will find that OHV riders, who never ventured into the non-dune deserts before, will be forced to start riding in those more sensitive desert areas that you deem sacred. This means that, through your own efforts, the very thing your are against, more noise and trail proliferation in the desert, will be exacerbated by your efforts.
I hope you enjoy the sounds of a two-stroke in the morning....
In fact, I just put a set of knobby (desert) tires on my quad, this first time I've had the paddle (sand) tires off my quad in 6-7 years. It has been that long since I rode in the 'hard' desert.
I plan on going desert riding for the first time in 6-7 years this coming Sunday. I will be riding legally on established trails in a designated OHV area.
I am dedicating my return to desert riding trip to you! Without your posts, I probably would have never gone back to the desert, I was satisfied just riding in the dunes where there is no OHV impact. But, you made me realize that I better start riding as much as I can, before all the public land is closed.
Thanks Blu, and don't forget my question.
------------------
Tim Wight
Mesa, AZ.
Protect your right to ride in the dunes, join the:
American Sand Association
www.americansandassociation.org
Ignorance and Apathy are just as dangerous as an environmentalist with a cause and a lawyer!
"BLU, DON'T EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, CALL OUR DUNES YOURS. YOU SLIME BAG LITTLE B!TCH, DON'T F WITH ME. THOSE ARE MY DUNES, NOT YOURS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
by "King" Glamis
As a full-fledged voting member of the American Public, I hereby assert my interest in the Algodones Dunes. They are MY DUNES TOO!
by "King" Glamis
As a full-fledged voting member of the American Public, I hereby assert my interest in the Algodones Dunes. They are MY DUNES TOO!
Tim asked:
"I would like you to list FIVE rare species that live in the dunes."
here's my answer.
FLORISTIC OF THE CA DESERT CONSERVATION AREA BY Peter G. Rowlands, John Willoughby and Constance Rutherford in Latting, Rowlands, eds. The California Desert, 1995
PSAMMOPHYTES
Rare, Threatened and endangered plants grow on several of the California desert dune systems, particularly the Eureka Dunes, the Algodones (Imperial) Dunes, the Kelso Dunes, and also on sand sheets and sandy areas throughout the area. The principal threat to the continued existence of these plants is offroad vehicle recreation. In the Algodones Dunes, which is the most intensively used area, great parts (fully two-thirds) of the entire dune system have been destroyed by offroad vehicle play, not only vegetation, but also wildlife and unique geological structure.
Algodones Dunes The Algodones Dunes are richest in rare psammophytes. The Bureau recently administered a contract (ECOS 1990) to reevaluate the status of the populations of the six species which are discussed below:
Astragalus litigious var. borreganus
Astragalus magdalenae var. peirsonii
Croton Wiggins
Helianthus niveus ssp. Tephrodes
Palafoxia arida var. gigantean
Pholisma sonorae
Astragalus litigious var. borreganus is present in the Cadiz Valley and the Kelso Sand Dunes as well as the Algodones Dunes; on the latter, it is confined to the east side, on the playa and foredunes. The distribution and density of this species is very limited during the summer months with only a few individuals surviving until fall. Only a few plants contribute the majority of seeds for that season. The main reproduction period for these short-lived perennials (biennials) is from December through February with most vegetative growth occurring during the fall and winter months. This plant is common in southern Arizona, Sonora and Baja California. The California Native Plant Society has the plant on its watch list.
Astragalus magdalenae var. peirsonii is a drought-deciduous, herbaceous perennial which exhibits some basal woodiness. It occurs in sandy depressions at the base of high dunes and lower established dunes, especially on the western side of the Algodones dune system. Collections of this plant have also been made in northeastern San Diego County and northeastern Baja California. Flowering occurs in march and April with seed germination occurring from November through February. It is considered threatened by offroad vehicle activity and is listed as Endangered by the State of California. This plant has recently been proposed for listing as Endangered by the USFWS.
Pholisma sonorae (sand food) was previously mentioned as a pale endemic. It belongs to the small American family Lennoaceae and is parasitic on the roots of several dune species, including Tiquillia (Coldenia) plicata, Eriogonum desert cola and Croton Wigginsii. Sandfood was formerly an important item of food to the Yuma and other Indians. It is a bizarre, achlorophyllous, succulent plant of Sonoran Desert dunes. It is mostly found buried in the sand, usually with only the discoid flowering, or fruiting, head visible on the surface, beginning in April. P. sonorae is well distributed and abundant throughout the Algodones Dunes and extends into southwestern Arizona, northwestern Mexico and Northeastern Baja California. According to Romspert and Burk (1979), P. sonorae may be a source of food for kangaroo rats (Dipodomys ssp.). As noted above, it is threatened by offroad vehicle activity.
"I would like you to list FIVE rare species that live in the dunes."
here's my answer.
FLORISTIC OF THE CA DESERT CONSERVATION AREA BY Peter G. Rowlands, John Willoughby and Constance Rutherford in Latting, Rowlands, eds. The California Desert, 1995
PSAMMOPHYTES
Rare, Threatened and endangered plants grow on several of the California desert dune systems, particularly the Eureka Dunes, the Algodones (Imperial) Dunes, the Kelso Dunes, and also on sand sheets and sandy areas throughout the area. The principal threat to the continued existence of these plants is offroad vehicle recreation. In the Algodones Dunes, which is the most intensively used area, great parts (fully two-thirds) of the entire dune system have been destroyed by offroad vehicle play, not only vegetation, but also wildlife and unique geological structure.
Algodones Dunes The Algodones Dunes are richest in rare psammophytes. The Bureau recently administered a contract (ECOS 1990) to reevaluate the status of the populations of the six species which are discussed below:
Astragalus litigious var. borreganus
Astragalus magdalenae var. peirsonii
Croton Wiggins
Helianthus niveus ssp. Tephrodes
Palafoxia arida var. gigantean
Pholisma sonorae
Astragalus litigious var. borreganus is present in the Cadiz Valley and the Kelso Sand Dunes as well as the Algodones Dunes; on the latter, it is confined to the east side, on the playa and foredunes. The distribution and density of this species is very limited during the summer months with only a few individuals surviving until fall. Only a few plants contribute the majority of seeds for that season. The main reproduction period for these short-lived perennials (biennials) is from December through February with most vegetative growth occurring during the fall and winter months. This plant is common in southern Arizona, Sonora and Baja California. The California Native Plant Society has the plant on its watch list.
Astragalus magdalenae var. peirsonii is a drought-deciduous, herbaceous perennial which exhibits some basal woodiness. It occurs in sandy depressions at the base of high dunes and lower established dunes, especially on the western side of the Algodones dune system. Collections of this plant have also been made in northeastern San Diego County and northeastern Baja California. Flowering occurs in march and April with seed germination occurring from November through February. It is considered threatened by offroad vehicle activity and is listed as Endangered by the State of California. This plant has recently been proposed for listing as Endangered by the USFWS.
Pholisma sonorae (sand food) was previously mentioned as a pale endemic. It belongs to the small American family Lennoaceae and is parasitic on the roots of several dune species, including Tiquillia (Coldenia) plicata, Eriogonum desert cola and Croton Wigginsii. Sandfood was formerly an important item of food to the Yuma and other Indians. It is a bizarre, achlorophyllous, succulent plant of Sonoran Desert dunes. It is mostly found buried in the sand, usually with only the discoid flowering, or fruiting, head visible on the surface, beginning in April. P. sonorae is well distributed and abundant throughout the Algodones Dunes and extends into southwestern Arizona, northwestern Mexico and Northeastern Baja California. According to Romspert and Burk (1979), P. sonorae may be a source of food for kangaroo rats (Dipodomys ssp.). As noted above, it is threatened by offroad vehicle activity.
quoteQUOTEYOU HAVE NO F-N CLUE HOW MUCH I LOVE THE DUNES.
And you should be getting a clue by now that I care for them and all our wild areas and humans and even you and your grandchildren enough to suffer all the reprisals and insidious juvenile insults that you can come up with!
[This message has been edited by Bluesky (edited 04-19-2002).]
That was your list of five rare species that live in the dunes? Anybody can pull up information that somebody else wrote. That doesn't mean you know sh*t about them! You're a KNOB!
Alright blu why dont you come clean. We all now you have something agains our impact on the dunes. But why?? is it really because your feel the need to try and save these plants or animals. if so why cant you transport some to a museum for everybody to see (especially your so called dune hikers). And then you can protect them forever. Or is your issue because of that noisy neighbor you have with the motorcycles and this is some sort of payback. or was it that motorcycle you wanted when you were little that you never got.
Why dont you come clean and tell the truth to why all this is happening. I dont believe that it is because of so called endangered speceis.
One more thing i heard one the news this morning that congress denied bush's request to drill for oil in the antarctic wildlife refuge. God I Love this guy he cares more about the people than anything else. Maybe you sould start caring about the speces you belong to..
No wait maybe thats what it is your not part of the human speces. Maybe you are part plant like poison ivy in the Batman series. I finally have it figured out!!!!!
Why dont you come clean and tell the truth to why all this is happening. I dont believe that it is because of so called endangered speceis.
One more thing i heard one the news this morning that congress denied bush's request to drill for oil in the antarctic wildlife refuge. God I Love this guy he cares more about the people than anything else. Maybe you sould start caring about the speces you belong to..
No wait maybe thats what it is your not part of the human speces. Maybe you are part plant like poison ivy in the Batman series. I finally have it figured out!!!!!
quote:
Originally posted by Bluesky:
As a full-fledged voting member of the American Public, I hereby assert my interest in the Algodones Dunes. They are MY DUNES TOO![/B]
Yes they are, and you are welcome to come share them with us. But don't try to kick us out because you hate the sounds of our bikes, or the tracks we leave in the sand. That's what the greenies are all about... "I want to be able to go to the dunes and see them like they were 1000s of years ago. The thought to be able to see them like that once and never return to them really makes me feel good. Oh, but the north side of the 78 isn't enough." Well, WE want to get out there and ride them. They are still sand dunes, just with some bike tracks on them. So, who's right? You, or us? And all these "endangered" species. BAH!! it's not true.
"Blu, the "rare wildlife" in the Imperial Sand Dunes has 32,000 acres in the wilderness area. That is more than enough and every study I have seen shows that the wildlife is doing fine in the wilderness."
Not only the wilderness, but in the open areas where OHV travel has gone on for decades now.
Not only the wilderness, but in the open areas where OHV travel has gone on for decades now.
BLU:
I asked you to list endangered species.Not even the Peirson's Milkvetch is listed as endangered by the US Fish & Wildlife, The PMV is only listed as "threatened". The other species are listed as "species of concern".
You need to check your facts. You only seem to cite items from people who already agree with your position and who are trying to push the same agenda as you!
Also, the study you cited has been deemed flawed and is no longer valid. You seem to keep citing the same source over and over.
I would think there would be more information on these plants, oooppps, there is...
There has been a recent study which shows the PMV is THRIVING and is in no danger from OHVs, or anything. The study also found that when it rains, desert plants do better (DUH) and when it does not rain, desert plants don't do as well, but their seeds seem to 'hibernate' until it rains again.
I'll ask you again, list 5 species that are listed as endangered that live in the dunes. Heck, name one that is on the OFFICIAL FEDERAL LIST as endangered.
They must be officially listed. Just because someone writes down some plant names and says they are endangered does not make that fact. The US government decides what is endangered!
------------------
Tim Wight
Mesa, AZ.
Protect your right to ride in the dunes, join the:
American Sand Association
www.americansandassociation.org
Ignorance and Apathy are just as dangerous as an environmentalist with a cause and a lawyer!
[This message has been edited by Tim Wight (edited 04-20-2002).]
I asked you to list endangered species.Not even the Peirson's Milkvetch is listed as endangered by the US Fish & Wildlife, The PMV is only listed as "threatened". The other species are listed as "species of concern".
You need to check your facts. You only seem to cite items from people who already agree with your position and who are trying to push the same agenda as you!
Also, the study you cited has been deemed flawed and is no longer valid. You seem to keep citing the same source over and over.
I would think there would be more information on these plants, oooppps, there is...
There has been a recent study which shows the PMV is THRIVING and is in no danger from OHVs, or anything. The study also found that when it rains, desert plants do better (DUH) and when it does not rain, desert plants don't do as well, but their seeds seem to 'hibernate' until it rains again.
I'll ask you again, list 5 species that are listed as endangered that live in the dunes. Heck, name one that is on the OFFICIAL FEDERAL LIST as endangered.
They must be officially listed. Just because someone writes down some plant names and says they are endangered does not make that fact. The US government decides what is endangered!
------------------
Tim Wight
Mesa, AZ.
Protect your right to ride in the dunes, join the:
American Sand Association
www.americansandassociation.org
Ignorance and Apathy are just as dangerous as an environmentalist with a cause and a lawyer!
[This message has been edited by Tim Wight (edited 04-20-2002).]
quoteQUOTEI would like you to list FIVE rare species that live in the dunes.
that's what you asked for Tim. So then when I research your request, you erroneously say it was based on the ECOS study, which it was not, then you insist that you originally asked for something which you did not ask for. Why didn't you go to the trouble of reading your own post before you misquoted yourself? Sounds like sloppy thinking to me. Or a feeble attempt to win an unwinnable argument.
BLU:
I think I won the argument. Maybe my definition of RARE is the species being listed as endangered. I agree I should have been more specific when dealing with a word smith like you. I will endeavor to exactly and precisely post what I mean in the future.
So, let me re-phrase the question, please tell me which of the species you mentioned are listed by the US Fish & Wildlife as endangered.
I really want to know.
From your own post:
"Astragalus litigious var. borreganus...The California Native Plant Society has the plant on its watch list." This does not mean it is endangered.
"Astragalus magdalenae var. peirsonii...This plant has recently been proposed for listing as Endangered by the USFWS." Proposed for listing does not mean it is listed as endangered. Anyway, further studies show that this plant, commonly known as the Peirson's Milkvetch, is thriving and is not threatened by OHV, or any activity. In fact, there is a petition to de-list this plant from it's threatened status!
"Pholisma sonorae (sand food)...beginning in April. P. sonorae is well distributed and abundant throughout the Algodones Dunes and extends into southwestern Arizona, northwestern Mexico and Northeastern Baja California..." No where in this passage does it mention any status except forthe authors assumption that OHV use threatens it. Of course OHV have been riding in these areas for decades and it does not seem to be harming this plant.
There was no other passages relating to the other species you have mentioned in your post.
Blu, just because we ride OHVs in the dunes does not mean we are doing any harm. Please state how our OHV activity in the dunes harms any species. I would like first hand accounts of your observations. I have been out there often and have not seen any harmful activity to these species.
I have read your other posts and you are against OHVs trail bazing and making unsitely trails in the desert. Well... There are no trails to be made in the dunes as it is bare sand and the wind soon covers our tracks.
While I will agree that OHV use does make sound, I will not agree that it is noise. This is a subjective classification based on the listener. What may be noise to you may be music to someone else.
YOU can go somewhere else to be free of these sounds. OHV enthuiasts CAN NOT go somewhere else to ride in the sand.
I would think an intelligent person such as yourself, with your mindset and opinions as they are, would WANT to have the ISDRA available for OHV riding instead of OHV riding in the more sensitive areas. I would think you and the Sierra Club would be helping us to do this.
Opposing this and causing restrictions will just put more OHVs in other areas.
------------------
Tim Wight
Mesa, AZ.
Protect your right to ride in the dunes, join the:
American Sand Association
www.americansandassociation.org
Ignorance and Apathy are just as dangerous as an environmentalist with a cause and a lawyer!
[This message has been edited by Tim Wight (edited 04-20-2002).]
I think I won the argument. Maybe my definition of RARE is the species being listed as endangered. I agree I should have been more specific when dealing with a word smith like you. I will endeavor to exactly and precisely post what I mean in the future.
So, let me re-phrase the question, please tell me which of the species you mentioned are listed by the US Fish & Wildlife as endangered.
I really want to know.
From your own post:
"Astragalus litigious var. borreganus...The California Native Plant Society has the plant on its watch list." This does not mean it is endangered.
"Astragalus magdalenae var. peirsonii...This plant has recently been proposed for listing as Endangered by the USFWS." Proposed for listing does not mean it is listed as endangered. Anyway, further studies show that this plant, commonly known as the Peirson's Milkvetch, is thriving and is not threatened by OHV, or any activity. In fact, there is a petition to de-list this plant from it's threatened status!
"Pholisma sonorae (sand food)...beginning in April. P. sonorae is well distributed and abundant throughout the Algodones Dunes and extends into southwestern Arizona, northwestern Mexico and Northeastern Baja California..." No where in this passage does it mention any status except forthe authors assumption that OHV use threatens it. Of course OHV have been riding in these areas for decades and it does not seem to be harming this plant.
There was no other passages relating to the other species you have mentioned in your post.
Blu, just because we ride OHVs in the dunes does not mean we are doing any harm. Please state how our OHV activity in the dunes harms any species. I would like first hand accounts of your observations. I have been out there often and have not seen any harmful activity to these species.
I have read your other posts and you are against OHVs trail bazing and making unsitely trails in the desert. Well... There are no trails to be made in the dunes as it is bare sand and the wind soon covers our tracks.
While I will agree that OHV use does make sound, I will not agree that it is noise. This is a subjective classification based on the listener. What may be noise to you may be music to someone else.
YOU can go somewhere else to be free of these sounds. OHV enthuiasts CAN NOT go somewhere else to ride in the sand.
I would think an intelligent person such as yourself, with your mindset and opinions as they are, would WANT to have the ISDRA available for OHV riding instead of OHV riding in the more sensitive areas. I would think you and the Sierra Club would be helping us to do this.
Opposing this and causing restrictions will just put more OHVs in other areas.
------------------
Tim Wight
Mesa, AZ.
Protect your right to ride in the dunes, join the:
American Sand Association
www.americansandassociation.org
Ignorance and Apathy are just as dangerous as an environmentalist with a cause and a lawyer!
[This message has been edited by Tim Wight (edited 04-20-2002).]
quoteQUOTEI think I won the argument. Maybe my definition of RARE is the species being listed as endangered. I agree I should have been more specific when dealing with a word smith like you.
I am not a professional writer. why do you call me a wordsmith? Say what you mean and then have the integrity to stick with your own terms. If you made a mistake, say as much. For you to criticize my findings as not endangered is pointless as that is not what you asked for nor what I searched for.
I am also not a biologist. I rely on testimony from experts to find out the state of health of the plants in our world. I depend on our public officials and law enforcement personnel to monitor and enforce the laws regarding the health of our environment. When we can see that they are underfunded and understaffed and cannot do their jobs, or their leadership is indebted to the industry it is their job to control, it becomes necessary for concerned individuals like myself to become active and write letters, go to meetings etc.
I'm not here to win an argument but to toss these ideas back and forth with you in the hopes of furthering my own education. Maybe I'll learn that our environment is in good hands and I can move on to other things, or maybe I'll learn something about what I can do to help our environment.
quoteQUOTEnew species will evolve
Do you know this? have any species evolved lately?
Well BLU:
Many of your posts appear to me to be argumentative, so I mistakenly thought your were here to argue with and belittle those who disagree with your position. Every once in a while you actually seem to debate the issues honestly, from your perspective, in a rational manner. That is all I ask for. I respect others opinions when they post in such manner.
Now, it seems, that you are genuinely interested in environmental concerns and what to spend your time in areas that will best improve the environment.
WELL... I couldn't agree with you more... I am also concerned about the environmemt and feel that passionate people such as yourself are wasting efforts on these non-issues when there are much more important environmental cause to pursue.
The environmental state of the ISDRA is very good and has co-existed with OHV activity for 40 years. You need not worry about OHV activity in this area!
I would think that the rain forests or air pollution would be a better, more important challenge. Before you state that OHV contributes to air pollution, I agree it does, but please aim your efforts at the MAJOR polluters of the air before going after small polluters such as OHVs.
For example, why not try to prohibit jet airplanes from flying,landing, and taking off from urban airports. One jet taking off spews more pollution directly into the atmosphere than a thousand OHVs. Get rid of the major polluters first!
------------------
Tim Wight
Mesa, AZ.
Protect your right to ride in the dunes, join the:
American Sand Association
www.americansandassociation.org
Ignorance and Apathy are just as dangerous as an environmentalist with a cause and a lawyer!
Many of your posts appear to me to be argumentative, so I mistakenly thought your were here to argue with and belittle those who disagree with your position. Every once in a while you actually seem to debate the issues honestly, from your perspective, in a rational manner. That is all I ask for. I respect others opinions when they post in such manner.
Now, it seems, that you are genuinely interested in environmental concerns and what to spend your time in areas that will best improve the environment.
WELL... I couldn't agree with you more... I am also concerned about the environmemt and feel that passionate people such as yourself are wasting efforts on these non-issues when there are much more important environmental cause to pursue.
The environmental state of the ISDRA is very good and has co-existed with OHV activity for 40 years. You need not worry about OHV activity in this area!
I would think that the rain forests or air pollution would be a better, more important challenge. Before you state that OHV contributes to air pollution, I agree it does, but please aim your efforts at the MAJOR polluters of the air before going after small polluters such as OHVs.
For example, why not try to prohibit jet airplanes from flying,landing, and taking off from urban airports. One jet taking off spews more pollution directly into the atmosphere than a thousand OHVs. Get rid of the major polluters first!
------------------
Tim Wight
Mesa, AZ.
Protect your right to ride in the dunes, join the:
American Sand Association
www.americansandassociation.org
Ignorance and Apathy are just as dangerous as an environmentalist with a cause and a lawyer!
Oh yeah, I almost forgot...
Did you find any listed endangered species that live in the ISDRA?
Guess not!
That means that this area is PRIME OHV riding area as OHVs are not negatively impacting the species that live there. The proof is obvious since OHVs have been riding in the dunes for over 40 years. Before that, the area was a bombing/artillery range and desert manuevers training area by the army for WWII. (hence the name Patton valley & hill)
If this activity, for all these years, has not managed to make any species endangered, I don't think continued riding in the dunes is any danger to the environment.
------------------
Tim Wight
Mesa, AZ.
Protect your right to ride in the dunes, join the:
American Sand Association
www.americansandassociation.org
Ignorance and Apathy are just as dangerous as an environmentalist with a cause and a lawyer!
Did you find any listed endangered species that live in the ISDRA?
Guess not!
That means that this area is PRIME OHV riding area as OHVs are not negatively impacting the species that live there. The proof is obvious since OHVs have been riding in the dunes for over 40 years. Before that, the area was a bombing/artillery range and desert manuevers training area by the army for WWII. (hence the name Patton valley & hill)
If this activity, for all these years, has not managed to make any species endangered, I don't think continued riding in the dunes is any danger to the environment.
------------------
Tim Wight
Mesa, AZ.
Protect your right to ride in the dunes, join the:
American Sand Association
www.americansandassociation.org
Ignorance and Apathy are just as dangerous as an environmentalist with a cause and a lawyer!
Tim
I'm argumentative only when I see people who purposely ignore obvious communications.
So the ISDRA was a bombing range? can you show me a link or something because I have never heard this before. I do know there is a bombing range NEAR Glamis.
Your suggestion about why don't I fight jet airplanes is a ridiculous one and one reason why I might appear to be argumentative in my response.
Let's not compare legitimate travel needs with high-impact recreation.
Did I find any endangered species? We all know that the PMV is "threatened" not endangered. What else am I going to find? One possible thing to think about is this: Do we always believe that BLM or USFWS are going to notice and list the species in time to save them? Look at the record for the Desert tortoise for example. This creature was listed (as threatened)in 1990. In 12 years they still haven't come up with a conservation plan for the tortoise, nor have they even enforced the rules they have on the books regarding trail use in Limited Use areas!
In 12 years the tortoise population has gone down 90%.
maybe if they stall another 12 years they'll all go extinct and we can open the desert to unlimited off-road use!
After the land is all cleared of vegetation by OHVs, then we can start putting in the mini malls, housing tracts, landfills, cement plants, airports, power plants, etc. We can put in some Disney type parking lots and attractions for people to recreate on. Of course all indoors and air conditioned!
I'm argumentative only when I see people who purposely ignore obvious communications.
So the ISDRA was a bombing range? can you show me a link or something because I have never heard this before. I do know there is a bombing range NEAR Glamis.
Your suggestion about why don't I fight jet airplanes is a ridiculous one and one reason why I might appear to be argumentative in my response.
Let's not compare legitimate travel needs with high-impact recreation.
Did I find any endangered species? We all know that the PMV is "threatened" not endangered. What else am I going to find? One possible thing to think about is this: Do we always believe that BLM or USFWS are going to notice and list the species in time to save them? Look at the record for the Desert tortoise for example. This creature was listed (as threatened)in 1990. In 12 years they still haven't come up with a conservation plan for the tortoise, nor have they even enforced the rules they have on the books regarding trail use in Limited Use areas!
In 12 years the tortoise population has gone down 90%.
maybe if they stall another 12 years they'll all go extinct and we can open the desert to unlimited off-road use!
After the land is all cleared of vegetation by OHVs, then we can start putting in the mini malls, housing tracts, landfills, cement plants, airports, power plants, etc. We can put in some Disney type parking lots and attractions for people to recreate on. Of course all indoors and air conditioned!
quote:
Originally posted by Bluesky:
Look at the record for the Desert tortoise for example. This creature was listed (as threatened)in 1990. In 12 years they still haven't come up with a conservation plan for the tortoise, nor have they even enforced the rules they have on the books regarding trail use in Limited Use areas!
In 12 years the tortoise population has gone down 90%.
maybe if they stall another 12 years they'll all go extinct and we can open the desert to unlimited off-road use!
The problem with the Desert Tortoise decline has NOTHING to do with OHV's. It is all about Upper Respiratory Tract Disease. You environmentalist are just using their "threatened" status to try and set aside more land that noone can use. Environmentalist don't really care about the real problem, just your agenda of keeping people off of public land. This is why we don't see the GAG's donating some of their millions to try to find a cure to the disease. That obviously wouldn't further your cause.
Crowdog
www.crowley-offroad.com
http://www.tortoise-tracks.org/publication...ns/offroad.html
"Declines in tortoise populations are well-documented for the western Mojave desert (Berry, 1990). Vandalism, damage to habitat from sheep grazing and off-highway vehicles (OHV), upper respiratory tract disease (URDT), and ravens are particularly critical issues in the Rand Mountains and Fremont Valley."
"Declines in tortoise populations are well-documented for the western Mojave desert (Berry, 1990). Vandalism, damage to habitat from sheep grazing and off-highway vehicles (OHV), upper respiratory tract disease (URDT), and ravens are particularly critical issues in the Rand Mountains and Fremont Valley."
quote:
Originally posted by Bluesky:
http://www.tortoise-tracks.org/publication...ns/offroad.html
"Declines in tortoise populations are well-documented for the western Mojave desert (Berry, 1990). Vandalism, damage to habitat from sheep grazing and [b]off-highway vehicles (OHV), upper respiratory tract disease (URDT), and ravens are particularly critical issues in the Rand Mountains and Fremont Valley."[/B]
Could you have found a more biased site? That's is just typical green propaganda. Find a declining species and use it to show how evil ranchers and off-roaders are. The real reason for their decline is URDT and you know it. Lucky for you the liberal media falls for your propaganda. Someday, the truth will prevail.
Crowdog
[This message has been edited by Crowdog (edited 04-21-2002).]
quoteQUOTEThe problem with the Desert Tortoise decline has NOTHING to do with OHV's.
so I post you a site that shows OHVs are impacting the tortoise (which of course anybody can see where trails criss cross through desert habitat) and what do you say?
quoteQUOTECould you have found a more biased site?
you got a better one?
Always the same with you folks.
1. I complain and try to show you that your hobby is impacting our world
2. You say bullsh*t, show me the proof
3. I show you the proof
4. you say "biased!"
5. see step #1
[This message has been edited by Bluesky (edited 04-21-2002).]
Straight fro mthe website you gave us a link to:
Why isn't their top priority finding a cure for URTD? Why isn't it even listed as a goal? Can't environmentalist just for once focus on the REAL cause of an animal's decline and do something for the good of that species? Nope. They focus instead on buying up land for a tortoise preserve instead. Just an excuse to set aside land for their purpose instead of the general publics.
There are millions of acres of desert, and OHV trails probably make up less than 1/10 of 1 percent of the habitat. Now how likely do you really think it would be for a OHV to hit a tortoise? Show me proof of even one such instance that hasn't been fabricated and/or staged by your environmentalist wackos friends.
Crowdog
[This message has been edited by Crowdog (edited 04-21-2002).]
quote:
The Desert Tortoise Preserve Committee is a non-profit organization formed in 1974 to promote the welfare of the desert tortoise (Gopherus agassizii) in its native wild state. Committee members share a deep concern for the continued preservation of the tortoise and its habitat in the southwestern deserts.
Desert Tortoise Preserve Committee activities include:
Establishing desert tortoise preserves.
Developing and implementing management programs for tortoise preserves and adjacent areas.
Education and research.
Why isn't their top priority finding a cure for URTD? Why isn't it even listed as a goal? Can't environmentalist just for once focus on the REAL cause of an animal's decline and do something for the good of that species? Nope. They focus instead on buying up land for a tortoise preserve instead. Just an excuse to set aside land for their purpose instead of the general publics.
There are millions of acres of desert, and OHV trails probably make up less than 1/10 of 1 percent of the habitat. Now how likely do you really think it would be for a OHV to hit a tortoise? Show me proof of even one such instance that hasn't been fabricated and/or staged by your environmentalist wackos friends.
Crowdog
[This message has been edited by Crowdog (edited 04-21-2002).]
quoteQUOTEThere are millions of acres of desert, and OHV trails probably make up less than 1/10 of 1 percent of the habitat.
you're playing fast and furious with your figures there. Why don't you do a little research and confirm your numbers, you might even surprise yourself!
Here is an aerial photo of desert tortoise habitat that has been impacted by OHV trails.
http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?zoom=...dxcOP5mtQvq0uWG %2bnqGyQZKdapy%2bY7M0f1Ty%2fB%2bpntGsTE6zjmdqaVO9sMESbq78goY9Xhs1LCKpt%2b1GvFZXXtFOi81ULi%2bkkpECznpUhCPrxNOLyN3deLPqkodpSbPV01fPcJAm5dV7QnixmvQ9ibZBF6rHUb%2bCbvdW2eCb1QYUdZ%2fmUe9 FI9MH6zwCb
[This message has been edited by Bluesky (edited 04-21-2002).]
Thanks for that report Blu, but not one mention of a dead or injured. Could it be that they are all fine???
The answer is to let people in the cities adopt the turtles like keep them as pets. I have never heard of a death in the BIG city. I used to mow a ladies yard and she had a couple and I used to take care of a friends 5 turtles when they went on vacations. If you truly care for the animals now... I'll take a couple. It will take a little time for them to adjust, seeing they currently have about 1 square mile each to live in thanks to the BLM.
------------------
Do It In The DUNES!
ARE YOU AWAKE YET???
The answer is to let people in the cities adopt the turtles like keep them as pets. I have never heard of a death in the BIG city. I used to mow a ladies yard and she had a couple and I used to take care of a friends 5 turtles when they went on vacations. If you truly care for the animals now... I'll take a couple. It will take a little time for them to adjust, seeing they currently have about 1 square mile each to live in thanks to the BLM.
------------------
Do It In The DUNES!
ARE YOU AWAKE YET???
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