I would like to see you Hike 1 mile ,"out and back" up and through the Dunes.

quote:

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Originally posted by Bluesky:
they'll be able to look upon it because it will be worth looking at after it's all grown back in (in 50 years). Of course, access by hiking will still be legal.

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Blue there F-ing dunes!!! They are supose to look just the way they do now. And 50 years won't make a bit of differance!! Once again THEY'RE DUNES. If you want to look at green **** go to the moutains or buy a salad!!!

<--------Blues mind at work

[This message has been edited by DuneTroll (edited 04-24-2002).]

quote:

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Originally posted by WFO WR500:
I would like to see you Hike 1 mile ,"out and back" up and through the Dunes.

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Yeah Blu, When was the last time you hiked a mile through the dunes? And how many times? I don't mean level ground. I mean the 200 foot high bowls.

OCBC,
Thank You! Thank You!! for putting my exact thoughts down in print. I have tried numerous times to create a post that would sum up how I feel about the situation at hand.I have never been able to do it. YOU ARE THE MAN! This I believe should qualify as a Slappy favorite.

Hey flashpoint, thanks for the kind words.
I read the posts daily and like you just couldnt put the right touch on it. Then Boom it hit me.

Thanks again.

Blu, the area is filled with sand. Since the 1970's we have been using our OHV's on the land. The dunes are still there, they look the same. (check out pictures of the old timers, they are exactly the same dunes man.) Besides, here is one key point: The area between gecko and olds was closed because it contained the second or third hishest concentration of the milkvec plant. THAT my friend is one of highest trafficed area in the DUNES. SO, by default, it is clear that our OHV's do not hurt this plant. They flurish where we play. PERHAPS???? Our OHV's help spread the plant's seeds and promote growth?? Ever think about that?

SHEESH!

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Wile E. Coyote survived flying off a 300 FT. sand dune.....

is there any difference between the North dunes andthe rest? Is there more vegetation, wildlife?

is the area to the south impacted by motorized rec?

NO!!! There is no difference. The North dunes cannot be riden on. The dunes south of the highway can be. For years past it has been this way, and there is no difference in life between the two sets. One with OHV use, one without, yet they remain the same.............
WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU!!!!!!!
OHV activity DOES NOT affect the dune ecosystem to the extent of extinction. In fact very little is affected by OHV use.

Why cant the Sierra Club and others see this? Oh yeah, your goal is to eliminate OHV's not protect wildlife.......


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Wile E. Coyote survived flying off a 300 FT. sand dune.....

[This message has been edited by OCBC (edited 04-26-2002).]

BLUESKY, THE WAY YOU PHRASED YOUR LAST STATEMENTS AND QUESTIONS RAISED A FLAG WITH ME. HAVE YOU EVER EVEN SEEN THE DUNES?

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freinds don't let freinds ride red

OHVs were there well before the 1970's!

Answer the question blu. When did you ever hike a mile in the steep dunes?

He's Pullin a "Slick Willie"

I've got news for ya Blu! In less than 50 years, I will be taking my OHV into your precious growth area. Due to mismanagment, every year MILLIONS of acres of "growth" go up in flames. Thats where my OTHER OHV (fire engine) comes into play. I find it kind of funny...Eco Nazis shoot their wad tryin to save their precious areas away from the "hustle and bustle", only to have 1 little lightning bolt make it go POOF! Then while we try to stop the oncoming fire front, the Greens impose stupid little rules like "no bulldozer fire breaks". The fire then eats up another 10,000 acres. Finally the little tree huggers are crying cause their house gets fried. Thank God for stupid people like yourself...because without them, I'd be out of a job! Perhaps you could get legislation passed, where all thunderstorms need a spark arrestor.

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Haz and Mrs. Haz
02 Raptor, 00 Warrior, and 87 250X
98, 85, and 78 YZ 250's
81 XR 250

All I can say is....

Right ON!!!!

By the way, where is Blu now that pressing questions have to be answered? Where are the eco nazis when the real issue is at hand?


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Wile E. Coyote survived flying off a 300 FT. sand dune.....

[This message has been edited by OCBC (edited 04-30-2002).]

If you're going to lie about it and say there's just as much vegetation in the North as in the south dunes, why should I continue to argue?

I dont care If there is more vegatation?
Its not nessasarily a Good thing?

Look at overwooded forests?
And the Potential Hazard of Uncontrolled Fires? "Colorado this week????"


MilkWeeds grow and then are covered by the Wind and Sand,, Cycle of Life
?


[This message has been edited by WFO WR500 (edited 05-01-2002).]

[This message has been edited by WFO WR500 (edited 05-01-2002).]

LIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How do you know, you have never seen them in person! Drive, NO walk down to the Imperial SAnd Dunes and see for yourself. you will see that I do not lie, and that all the biased BS that you read is lying.

Pull your head out of the hole its in and see the world.

I find it freaking hilarious that you are trying to save a world that you never see, hear, taste, touch, OR USE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Man, sometimes I wonder how people like you live, you become slaves to a cause and dont think for yourself. I wonder what this world would be like it people were individuals, not drones.

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Wile E. Coyote survived flying off a 300 FT. sand dune.....

[This message has been edited by OCBC (edited 05-01-2002).]

Actually Blue is right. There isn't "just as much vegetation in the north as in the south dunes". There's a lot more in the south dunes despite years of OHV use.

The BLM's studies show it.

The ASA's study shows it.

Anyone with a set of eyes on their head can go see it for themself.

BTW blue. I tried to take a photo of that fence north of 78 this weekend for you. But gee, I found it awfully damn hard to get photos of something that DOES NOT EXIST! So what's with you and Jerry talking about watching people lifting quads over a fence that isn't there? Any chance at all you can explain how that isn't a lie? There is no fence and there never has been. Yet the number of intrusions is still extremely small. (And yes I have the BLM documents in front of me to prove all of this. They're about an inch thick with brown and blue covers on them. You can get copies yourself if you ask.)

It's amazing to me how they try to compare the "Sand Highway" which is a ROAD to the north dunes.

Blu, take a ride into the sand just a little ways and you'll see.
Sure, the very high traffic areas, as in ROADS, have less but that area is very small and would be the equivilant to a paved parking lot at a forest or a hiking trail through the wilderness.
It is certainly not reflective of the dunes.

Vor

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May the Dune Gods Smile Upon You
ShiftingDunes.com

hitesma, as a moderator, you should know better than to falsely accuse somebody of doing or saying something. The posts you refer to on another board quite a few months ago had nothing to do with me. I never commented on a fence or a quad or anything. Please check your facts before you attack me.

BLU,
Just answer our questions! I guess you cannot because you know we are right. If you answered them, you would have to lie and then your cause will be exposed....

Just shows how true my original post is.

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Wile E. Coyote survived flying off a 300 FT. sand dune.....

so blu, have you ever hiked in the dunes???

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DJ~DesertViper
Blue is the only way to go~YZ250

That would be irony.. An environmentalists house burning down because the fire crews couldnt use the proper equipment to save it!

Robbie

quote:

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Originally posted by Shane-0:
That would be irony.. An environmentalists house burning down because the fire crews couldnt use the proper equipment to save it!

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They would just sue the government.
Thats all they really want to do anyway.

OCBC, Slap just cought your piece, and it be goin into da McScrappbook. Beautimus in your passion, don't ever stop dat fire.

Blu, Slap understand da enviro point of view to a point, cuz Slap be an enviro. But one problem Slap got wit da extreme enviro's is dat SlappyKind (dat be humans) ARE a part of nature, and the extreme enviro doesn't believe that. And to separate us to such an extreme level, as do many of the extremists, could be downright nastified.

When you have a complete separation from nature, you force the individual to become almost affraid of it; apprehensive. It can even go as for as just wishing nature would go away. Nature reminds us of our weaknesses, our place; and we don't want to be put in our place. Ultimately, we are denying where we came from. Godforbid to believe that being amongst nature is a good thing. It will get to a point that it is not needed anymore because nobody even knows its there, and that is because of extreme disconnection. So, why have it? And please don't tell da Slapster dat he can still hike on Mother G. Slappy has to laugh; over twenty years has Slappy been dunin, and he has never seen one person hiking through the dunes. However, this last season, Slappy did see one group gathered in the flats on the North side; of course forming their protest to say, "See, we always go there." That is just rediculous...But anyways.

Slap do believe dat it is our responsibility as a species to manage nature the best we can, but it has gone too far. Forcing closures on Mother Glamis because extremists feel that there is a possibility that a plant MIGHT have grown in the spot where a buggy just passed through is a way for them to play God, and that is very bad. For instance, the examples above conclude that extreme groups have become natures true adversary; allowing thousands and thousands of acres of forest to be burned to the ground along with the hundreds (if not thousands) of animals to die without intervention is a weight Slappy could not bare.

If da Slapster was to ask who was more dangerous to nature, a hunter in the woods, or a guy living in a condo in New York City? In the eyes of an extremist it is the hunter. But, it is actually the guy living in New York City who doesn't care anything about nature who is the most dangerous of all...But, the guy in New York has his calendar full of nature pictures on the wall as he plays video games on television. He is eliminated from the equation. However, the hunter wants that forest to last; he wants those animals to pro-create; he wants to be involved.

The moment you become a rational being, you hate nature, cuz nature is the OTHER world. And unless you compromise with nature, stay a part of it; use it, let it use you, both worlds die. Believe it or not, nature will have us for lunch someday, and that is a good thing. Nature requires action and change, both good and bad.

If the Sierra Club, CBD, and other similar organizations would work directly with the people regarding their beliefs, and not through the courts to convince judges to force the people to accept their beliefs, Slappy would be more agreeable to their goals, and their goals would be a little more agreeable to Slappy. Slap has yet to see that.






[This message has been edited by Slappy (edited 05-06-2002).]

well put slappy...

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DJ~DesertViper
Blue is the only way to go~YZ250

This is a letter I just sent the sierra club. I am a concerned citizen.I have heard that you are trying to shut down the main motorcycle riding areas.(Glamis,Pismo,etc.) I just do not understand why you want to destroy trees,plants,animal habitats,streams,and other life.Logic tells me that when you close down these desert sand areas with NO life or hardly any life in them at all,the people riding the motorcycles will now go back to riding across the street and in the hills in local neighborhoods and cities,destroying trees,plants,animal habitats,streams,and other life,not to mention all the noise and dust for local home and business owners everywhere.I have heard you want to close down glamis for a milkweed.Let me tell you that I have been there and there is hardly any in the sand dunes where you are trying to close.There are millions of them in the whole desert surrounding the little area of dunes that you don't seem to care about.Are you trying to protect the environment or do you have something against motorcycle riders??? So please respond back.I need your reasoning to maybe make some sense out of this,because I feel that you guys didn't think this whole thing through,you might be even more sorry in the end after a lot more than just one weed is effected.Please let me know where you would rather have your son or daughter ride,in your garden (like local hills),or in your sand box (like sand dunes)??? Please Think!!! Then respond!!! Thank you for your time. Kevin P.S. If you still decide to take away the sand box then I really think it would be in the enviroments best interest for you to come up with a new place that is more enviromentally safe for them to ride so they don't ruin our local hills and enviroment.

Slappy,

you make some interesting points. Regarding the efforts to protect sensitive species in the dunes--biologists have been alarmed at the effects of vehicles on the wildlife in the dunes since the 1970s! These people are into plants and animals, not into playing God with people's recreational patterns.

Part of the real blame rests on the front door of the agencies charged with managing our public lands. Have they done their duty to monitor the effects of the public's use of the land? Seems that there's only been two or three actual studies of the Milkvetch done in the past 30 years, and some of these were rejected as being flawed! So how can we know if the areas are being seriously impacted or not?

Individual biologists have made their studies and I have posted a couple of their reports here. They say that there are a number of sensitive plants and animals in the dunes ecosystem that are threatened by OHV rec.

At the very least, we can agree that the numbers of folks using the ISDRA are having some impact on the environment. The BLM and FWS have a resonsibility to monitor the effects of that use and under the Endangered Species Act, come up with a conservation strategy to protect any threatened life form.

They haven't done this.

What should be a scientific effort has been turned into a political stage show by all three parties to the Dunes story--the BLM, the user groups and the green groups.

your comments about nature are you own personal philosophy or religion and really don't have any bearing on the outcome of this controversy, any more than some greenie's rantings about Mother Gaeia (or however you spell it).

enjoyed your comments on the Roger Hithc0ck show!


Kevronics--

the dunes are not devoid of life! there is plenty of life that has adapted specifically to live in the dunes and these life forms interact in a complicated relationship of interdependency which we know very little about.
There should be motorcycle rec areas set aside in industrial areas of cities so kids can ride there and not have to drive for hours to get to a play area. I would support this idea. They should take green sticker funds and buy up an old railroad yard or something and make a park for you guys. They should run the park 24 hrs a day so people can go at off-hours if they want to get away from the crowds.

BTW the Peirson's Milkvetch does not grow in the desert around the dunes--just in the dunes. It's what's called a "psammophyte"--a life form that is specially adapted to living in the dunes environment.

About the question does the sierra club have something against motorcycle riders--maybe you haven't noticed, but motorcycle riders have torn up a great deal of the Mojave desert and made hillclimbs and play areas wherever they want for the past 30 years on public and private lands without permission. In spite of 100s of 1000s of acres being set aside as open areas, the motorcyclists still don't like to go there. I've heard them say, "oh, that place is 'ridden out'." like now they're bored with the open areas and need new areas to make more hillclimbs on. As a Sierra Club member, I can tell you I am frustrated with the ongoing trail proliferation done by dirt bikes. As a parent, I can see the joy that kids get out of riding their toys through the desert--that's why I support using the existing open areas like Jawbone and Johnson Valley to name a few.

Blue as usual you leave out a lot of information that blows your position out of the water.

quote

QUOTE

you make some interesting points. Regarding the efforts to protect sensitive species in the dunes--biologists have been alarmed at the effects of vehicles on the wildlife in the dunes since the 1970s! These people are into plants and animals, not into playing God with people's recreational patterns.

Some people have been making claims that OHV use is affecting plants and animals in the dunes but they have yet to back it up with any scientific evidence. Even your own quotes from Lukenbach and Bury end with blanket statements that OHV use is putting these things in danger - but they don't provide any evidence or data to support that claim. It's the common green technique of repeating something enough that your followers tend to believe it's true just because they've heard it so many times. Where is the data? There is none!

Studies that are backed with hard data have shown that the plants are just as prevelant now as they were in the past if not more. The weather is the main determing factor as to how prevelant the plants (and therefore the animals) will be in any given year.

quote:

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posted 05-08-2002 08:51 AM [Click Here to See the Profile for Bluesky] [Edit/Delete Message] [Reply w/Quote] Slappy,

you make some interesting points. Regarding the efforts to protect sensitive species in the dunes--biologists have been alarmed at the effects of vehicles on the wildlife in the dunes since the 1970s! These people are into plants and animals, not into playing God with people's recreational patterns.

Part of the real blame rests on the front door of the agencies charged with managing our public lands. Have they done their duty to monitor the effects of the public's use of the land? Seems that there's only been two or three actual studies of the Milkvetch done in the past 30 years, and some of these were rejected as being flawed! So how can we know if the areas are being seriously impacted or not?

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The BLM has conducted repeated surveys of many plants and animals in the dunes. But they have not collected enough data to make any major determinations about them. One of the reasons is that certian individuals within the BLM who were in charge of those studies refused to take the necessary actions - the fact that these people also have close ties to green groups suggests that they did so in hopes that their studies would fail and give these groups more excuses to close the public out of the public land.

You also fail to mention that the supposed reason for the lawsuit was that the BLM had not completed Section 7 consultations about the dunes in regards to the PMV. The problem is the BLM was acting under the CDCA which was created in the 80's. The PMV was railroaded through the ESA process against the BLM's recomendations in the 90's. The BLM was in the process of consulting with FWS in preparation for their new DRAMP for the dunes which would address the PMV and other issues that had developed when the SC/PEER/CBD suit was filed. That suit directly impacted the BLM's ability to effectively do their job by taking what little manpower and funding they had away from the task at hand.

One can only assume that the CBD and friends knew exactly what they were doing and timed their lawsuit to hit when the BLM was least able to defend itself even though they were attempting to do the right thing. And the CBD's recent comments to their followers and the press shows that they had hoped their forced non-science backed solutions would be used in place of the actual process that they were supposedly complaining about not having been completed.

quote:

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Individual biologists have made their studies and I have posted a couple of their reports here. They say that there are a number of sensitive plants and animals in the dunes ecosystem that are threatened by OHV rec.

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Exactly, they say it but they do not provide any facts or data to back that claim. They are still operating under the assumption that OHV use in inheritently evil and therefore must be stopped. I have only seen you repeatedly share one study and nowhere does it give any scientific or practical explanation for how OHV use is supposedly endangering these plants and animals. They just tack on a statement at the end saying so. That's not how good science is done!

quote

QUOTE

At the very least, we can agree that the numbers of folks using the ISDRA are having some impact on the environment. The BLM and FWS have a resonsibility to monitor the effects of that use and under the Endangered Species Act, come up with a conservation strategy to protect any threatened life form.

And they have done studies but even their own studies show that the plants are not threatened by OHV use. In fact the BLM's own studies show that the plants and animals in question are doing BETTER in open areas than in the Wilderness area that was already set aside. The BLM has taken steps to protect these plants and did set aside areas for preservation. But that was not enough for the CBD/SC/ and PEER so they sued to try and get the rest of the dunes. Although they claim they don't want to close the entire dune system that was exactly what they called for durring the start of settlement talks!

quote

QUOTE

What should be a scientific effort has been turned into a political stage show by all three parties to the Dunes story--the BLM, the user groups and the green groups.

Yes it has, and that is directly the result of groups like the CBD forcing the BLM to decide land management issues in a court of law rather than through study and science. The blood is on your hands for this one and you still try to pass it off on everyone else.

quote

QUOTE

your comments about nature are you own personal philosophy or religion and really don't have any bearing on the outcome of this controversy, any more than some greenie's rantings about Mother Gaeia (or however you spell it).

The same can be said about your arguments Blue! You've yet to give any scientifc data and evidence to back your position. Only philosphical and emotional claims. You complain when we paint all "environmentalists" with the same brush yet gladly try to lump all OHV users into the same group with the worst of the people who visit public lands. You offer nothing but emotional pleas and complain when someone from the other side does the same. PEER released a video calling duners un-american anti-government yet the CBD representative who apepared in that video is an admitted anarchist who is against the governemnt of this country - and then someone on a CBD hike has the gall to complain about being called "un-american" and talking about how much it hurts!

It's the people like you how dish and dish then go running home to mommy crying when someone returns 1/10th of it that create the problems in this world today. It's this attidude of "it's ok for us but not for you" that turns so many against the environmental movement. And that my friend is why I have such a big problem with you spreading your lies and half-truths then complaining when someone you disagree with uses your own methods against you.

I do love nature and riding in an industrial park does not give me a chance to connect with it the way that finding a quiet dune in the middle of the ISDRA to sit on top of and watch the sky does. I do want to see that our natural resources are still viable for our children and not locked behind a fence where they can only enjoy them in books and documentaries.

And I do feel there are environmental issues that need to be delt with. But people like you divert the attention away from the real problems because of your own personal agendas with some peoples chosen form of recreation. You turn people who could be allies because they do love the earth into foes because you don't enjoy the same things as them. You my friend are one of the environmental movements worst enemies and you're doing it from the inside along with the CBD and it's getting a lot of us who do believe in conservation (not preservation as you call for) royally upset.