I had the car dynoed again today. I specifically told him I want real RWHP numbers (nothing manipulated).

This is a mustang dyno, it was 115 degrees (lost a little over 20HP), dynoed at AS&M in Chandler, AZ. Engine builder was not present nor does he know that I dynoed it, here are the results. Enjoy.

Awesome! Maybe the know it all's will STFU now

Doubt it.

All of that and no 5-gas readings? I don't see the sniffer in the pipe...

Sunshine

What was the engines advertised HP numbers ???? are you running 930's or 935's, 2D ????.

I doubt it. Looks all staged to me j/k LOL LOL LOL

I never doubted your dyno results.

I do think that the 33% drivetrain loss others report is quite high. By those calculations, you're generating 713.67 hp at the crank, which is actually very unrealistic.

Assuming your engine made somewhere in the neighborhood of 560 crank hp today, we could guess your drivetrain losses at about 16%, which seems kinda low.

Let's say somewhere between 20 -25% losses would calcumaguess out to a crank hp range of 588.75hp to 628 hp. Erring on the low side, I wouldn't argue if someone chose to call this a 580hp engine.

That's all purely academic, the fact is you've got 470 - 490rwhp pushing your car, and the price tag wasn't too bad at all! There's a lot to be said for a 383 stroker.

I'd be very happy to have that motor in my rail, that's for sure!

I agree great numbers! Is that running on pump gas too? Who did your motor?

Seems kind of high to me. We're dynoing our race car tomorrow for rwhp (mostly for tuning, but I'm sure we'll get a number). It's supposed to be around 560hp at the crank. I'll bet it makes nowhere near 471 to the wheels.

We shall see...

Where are you dynoing it at?


It would be interesting if you dyno'd it at your place tomorrow and then took it over to AZS&M to see how the 2 dynos compare.

This was done on a Mustang dyno, which are usually on the conservative side, so I'd be really hard pressed to see any reason why this dyno run was inaccurate.

We honestly don't have the time to take it to two different dyno shops, even though they are both in Chandler. We are flying in a tuner to handle the dyno tuning. Once that is done we have to finish up the car for the race. Every hour counts.

But to be honest it is not a fair comparison. An Albins sucks a lot more hp than a Mendi.

But then again, we dyno tuned a supercharged LS1 at 6psi of boost, and it made a lot less than 471rwhp. And that was with a Mendi 2D.

Who knows...? I'm not a huge dyno number fan anyway. I prefer real world results. The guy that wins has the best hp to weight to gear ratio to traction to suspension setup in my opinion.

...I'd be happy with that. Congrats!!!

It was not "advertised". It was a custom built engine, he will build whatever you want. I wanted a stroker, I'm a big fan of TORQUE. I originally wanted to use an LS2 block with 4.0" bore & 4.0" stroke, but the blocks did not come in on time. I am running an S4 and 934's.



Yes, pump gas. LS1 Motorsports in Mesa, AZ did the engine.

Are you sure about the Albins sucking more hp? I don't know, just wondering if you have some data to support it.

I'm thinking that people are not giving a 383 stroker the credit it deserves, they do make great hp and torque. Perhaps some people aren't giving Glen full credit either, I've heard he's been building engines for quite some time.

Maybe 1fastdsl lucked out and got a zero loss drivetrain.

People keep saying my numbers are too high...the way I see it - your numbers are too LOW.

The last car we dyno tested had a C5R race engine with Kinsler fuel injection. It made 434rwhp. If you want to race that car at the dunes I can arrange that next season. Until then, it's all just talk. But that's cool. Talk gets us through the summer time.

Out of curiosity, what gear can a "400HP or 450HP" LS1 pull olds? I realize gears, tires, weight play a factor. Can they pull 4th (1:1)?

For reference, I can pull Olds in 4th @ 6100 RPM.

Who's talkin'? I posted #'s, your "talking" saying they are too high.

You win, your shlong is bigger, I don't care.

Sounds like another classic case of somebody paying way TOO MUCH money.

There are too many modifed camaros and corvetts putting down 450-500 RWHP.
I am guessing they are all full of $h_t as well, as your #'s are the only correct ones.

I just finished looking at a few LS1 web sites... You know the kind I'm talking about. Anyway, most of those "cars" are putting bown 300-325 RWHP with no mods. Folks, these are STREET cars with everything hooked up. Mustang dyno, yada, yada... Knowing this, why can't a LS1 put down 400 plus HP with ported head, cam, headers, no engine junk, yada, yada?

Zilla

I could care less if he could find a faster car. I just get tired of people telling me my numbers are wrong because their numbers happen to be less. I don't care what others cars put down, I simply shared my numbers - thought others might be intersested. Get over it.

Theres a million small block Fords that put down 400+ to the ground (347s and smaller) naturally asperated and driven daily as well. I cant see any way in the world a transaxle is less efficient than a T5, drive shaft, 8.8 combination No reason for me to doubt the numbers, I know its possible. Hell, 2004/5 Cobras are consistently putting 375hp to the wheels from the factory out of a lil old 4.6 and a lil boost.

Here we go...

How can ya get 471hp to hook up on those 12" rollers with no weight in the car?

Don't be a "hater."

Call Arizona Speed & Marine (480) 753-0208 , ask for Jim.

For the record, we have had a customer go to AZ Speed & Marine and he was very happy. I don't remember his numbers but I could find out.

I'm still curious why their dyno sheet says 5,000rpm. That engine should pull at least 6,500rpm. I think last time you said it was because the engine was new.

I'll bite.

I think they can. It's just that there's a difference between an engine "assembler" and a racing engine builder. I think that a lot of these shops people are buying engines from are merely taking a collection of parts that they've read about and assemble them into an engine, then add up all of the hp these parts supposedly give and that's your total. Or they pick a number like 512 or 518hp, because it's slightly higher than their competitor's 510hp number, which in turn was higher than the other guy's previous 500hp number... you get the idea.

If I walk into a reputable engine shop, I expect to see an engine dyno, flow bench, all of the tools necessary to balance an engine, the ability to blueprint an engine, a flow bench, extensive research in port flow, etc.

If you've done a lot of dyno research and airflow research and match the injectors, balance the engine, etc then you might possibly be a reputable engine builder.

But anyone who just slaps an engine together I would call an engine assembler.

I think too many people are focusing on the ECM tuning of the engine. First you have to have the displacement and airflow/fuel capable of producing the power. Then you tune the ECM to give you the spark and fuel to maximize it across the rpm range.

Anyways, I think everyone should be happy with what they've got. Hell, I've got a 280 crank hp V8 so probably less than 200 rwhp in my rail and I have a LOT of fun with that, so an extra 271 rwhp has gotta be a lot of icing on the cake!

Steve, I almost disagree with you're entire post. I'll through my shop under the bus and use it for an example.

First, there are some very good engine builders out there that do not have all the equipment stated above. We use a machine shop for all the balancing and machining of all our engines. That's all they do. We don't have the room or the resources to have computer crank balancers, mills, honers, etc... They are a PROFFESSIONAL machine shop and are way better equiped and skilled to do this task. The guy at Big O tires can sure balance the shlt out of you're wheel and tire, but do you think that guy knows anything about tire construction?

A flow bench. With all the data out there from all the head manufacturers, why in the world would someone want to spend a bunch of time and money porting and flowing heads? THE ONLY reason would be if you're a tweaker... or building high dollar RACE engines for SPECIFIC CLASSES and you're trying to extract every last drop of horsepower. Other than that, it is a waste of time and money which inherintly gets passed down to the customer. The professional head companies such as AFR, Brodix, etc.. have all this information readily available. I have personal experience with several engine builders that I know personally try to reinvent the wheel on the flow bench all in vain.

Math, expertise, and experience is what is important. Flow all the heads you want, but if you cant size the cam, then it doesn't mean anything. If you don't have the expertise to know what would work best for the application, then it doesn't mean anything. I have tried things that made more horsepower on the dyno but have slowed my buggy down. Just because something makes a bunch of horsepower, doesn't nessecarrily mean it's going to be fast. WHat's the difference between a 900 hp Formula one engine and a 900 hp Drag race engine? A whole lot, and it's all about the application.

Last you are dead wrong about people focusing too much on tuning. This is where it's at! You've seen the posts on here, we consistently extract huge gains out of a lot of peoples engines just from tuning (several on this board). Who cares if you have the "kick ass dale ernhard john force dune slayer engine" perfectly balanced with extesive flow bench research for heads and intake combos, the perfect cam for the exact power curve you're looking for, and it's popping, punching out black smoke, and falls on it's face. It's a HUGE WASTE! Tuning is THE MOST important part of the equation.

Any way I have to get to work.

LV is right on. In regards to tuning, I think the problem is there really wasn't much "tuning" done on V8 motors until recent history with piggy back ECU's, then stand alones. Prior to that, they jetted carbs, ran it by ear and were done with it. Now, it is wide band O2 tuning, fuel and ignition maps mapped to a specific injector, cam, compression to reach a desired drivability and air fuel ratio that performs. Tuning is certainly a modern day wonder and it is good to see shops like Danzio take a focus on this along with coupling good tuning to a nice motor package.

Many V8 owners at the dunes motors, pop, moan and groan and I know are down on power simply because they have not had someone tune a motor with a wide band by a pro.

I don't know about 1FastDSL's motor, but the guy sure seems happy. Might as well get Sandzilla to dyno his car on a dynojet at Extreme in Tempe,AZ and then take the 11 mile hike on over to AZ Speed & Marine to get a base comparison. We know the ASM dyno for 1Fast was relative (within 15hp from last time), and that is all he needs.

OK, if you feel that it's better to farm out the balancing, machine work, etc, that's fine, but you've now lost control of Q.A. You're at the mercy of your machine shop.

Not a big deal if they do quality work all of the time. But if they don't - you're on the hook to the customer. The nyou have to go back to the machine shop... yada yada.

As far as the heads, valves, cam selection goes - where do you get your data from? The Mfr? Can you trust it?

Example: Banks is a major mfr of diesel performance parts, and they claim some incredible numbers, but it DOES NOT produce those numbers on the dyno - not on the day I was there and smoked em with a supposedly lower rated product. The point is, they claimed a lot more than they could produce in person, so I DO NOT believe advertising claims from the mfr.

If it is dyno'd by an independent shop, THEN I trust the results, because they have nothing to gain and a reputation to lose if they're lying.

You're basically saying why reinvent the wheel when everyone else has already done all of the homework and all you have to do is follow the recipe and tune it on the dyno. Again, you're trusting that the person telling you the recipe is being honest - you have to know who they are to be able to trust their results, especially if they are higher than expected.

I think you totally misread my statement about tuning. You cannot tune a lemon and get 1,000hp. FIRST the engine MUST be capable of making the hp through airflow and fuel - it is an air pump first and foremost - the ECM merely controls the spark and fuel.

I know you can't honestly think that you can make any level of hp just through tuning. If you really do, I'll bring my 200 rwhp engine down there and let's get 500hp out of it. It'll never happen, because the ENGINE can't do it. You said as much yourself in another post where you said LS1s rarely break the 300hp mark.

Lastly, you cannot dispute how much fun I'm having with only 200hp. I'm sure I'd have more fun with 500hp, but since you're not me, I'm the only one who knows whether I'm having fun or not.

Yes, I'm having fun.

Once again you provided us all with some good entertainment 1fastdsl. Let me know when you Dyno your Dodge Cummins, and which board you put your results on. I would love to see the controversy that stats with all the doubters there. But hey, after the work out these guys have given you, you might not be interested. A lot has ben said on the matter. I’ll just say congratulations.

Next time you go to the dunes can I go? I’ll bring lots of frozen gatorgaid and an offspring CD . The back seat is fine with me, and I weigh a lot, so I’ll help out with the traction.

I can't believe all the pissing and moaning that goes on around here. Looks to me that 1fastdsl has a killer motor and is very happy with it. Why can't everyone leave it be.

And I agree with 40PSI regarding dunebuggy.com, nothing like kicking a guy in the nuts from behind and then running...... If you going to call him out atleast take the time to take the car a mile away and prove your point. You say you don't have time but you have over 20000 post....LOL!!!!!!

I'll agree with you to an extent - an improperly tuned engine is gonna run like crap and produce far less power than it should. Thats' a given. If oyu take that engine to a tuner, he did not "make more hp" out of the engine. He took a poorly running engine and made it perform as good as it should.

But with all of this focus on ECM tuning, people "sound like" they're forgetting what makes hp - displacement and airflow. I'm pretty sure they really aren't, but very few people talk about specific cam grinds or valve sizes or unshrouding the intake side on this site - they just wanna write a check and take it to a tuner and expect miracles.

You already know that, or you wouldn't be a huge supporter of the 2JZ (?) engine for it's strength. You wouldn't need to add a larger turbo and injectors, you could just make 1,000 hp simply from tuning.

Oh yeah, I forgot something.

Mr LV, since you disagree with my entire post, including my doubts that "somebody's" engine makes 518 hp, apparently you feel that they DO make the stated hp.

Is that true?

Those Extreme Dyno guys in Tempe are right next to us in our business complex. They do tons of import stuff and seem to be good but I have never seen a V8 hooked up over there, do they tune v8's.

One thing we know for sure is part of Socaldmas MO is to ride the fence of context and then spin out another idea under the guise that no one considered the point prior. This is standard when you are pinned on something, to spin-it-back-out. Case in point, no one (not a single person here) is disputing a properly built motor, what LV and myself and pointing out is many motor that were properly built are NOT properly tuned. It isn't black magic, but it is in context..........

Extreme is a LS1 shop, I don't think a single person owns an import. The owner has a Lingenfelft 427 Twin-Turbo C5.

No, no. Hang on a second. No engine builder is ever at the mery of any machine shop. He would never put a engine together without re-checking every single part (clearence ect.) … The machine shop's job it to do the work…The builders job is to make sure it's right. (They are the Q.A people)

Owning your won crank grinder, flow bench, balance machine would be nice, but you (the customer) will make every payment on that equipment…Guaranteed. The only way for an engine builder to keep down cost is to farm out some of the machining. The end result will be the same for any competent engine builder.

Head manufactures have already done the R&D and have all the flow numbers you could ever ask for. It's up to the engine builder to "pick the right heads" for the application. A vacuum motor in a heavy car will not need the same heads and a blower motor in a light car… And that's part of the tuning process too….the "knowing" of said facts.

Picking a cam is a big part of every engine and the "tuner/engine builder" most know where to start. Almost no engine builder will grind ten cams until they find the one that makes the most power. They go by parameters based on experience and tried and true formulas for building HP for any given application.

Mr. LV never said he could tune in another couple hundred HP on any given engine. But I bet he could fine tons of power on a engine that is not "tuned" properly. With that said, he could tune it to it's peak, but engine could still be a dog if the application for which it was built is not correct.

Zilla

Really? That's my MO?

No, *I* interpret what I read on the page, which may be completely different than what the poster intended or what you interpret from the same post.

Example: Mr LV states: " It's a HUGE WASTE! Tuning is THE MOST important part of the equation. "

So if someone took this to the extreme and out of context, they might get the mistaken impression that the ENGINE itself doesn't matter, TUNING is all it takes, and you know better than that.

I guess your MO includes quoting me and leaving out the most important part - where I agreed with you.

"I'll agree with you to an extent - an improperly tuned engine is gonna run like crap and produce far less power than it should. Thats' a given. If oyu take that engine to a tuner, he did not "make more hp" out of the engine. He took a poorly running engine and made it perform as good as it should."

I don't think anyone can dispute that.


Let's try to stick to discussing the topic rather than attacking others.

**********************************************************************************

So let's get back to the main point of this thread.



Do you believe this engine made 471 hp yesterday on that dyno, or do you have any reason or facts to doubt it?

I am happy that 1FastDSL is content and is willing to share his results with this know-it-all crowd of people who own 125-200hp cars. Further, he could give a rats-ass of what people think of the results, for that I like the dude as well. Other than that, I enjoy the drama. One thing I am confident of is that V8rail will surely come along and quote some NASCAR builders hp numbers and talk about flat-tracking with a sway bar

You completely ingnored the question.


Don't spin it off, that's my tactic, get your own.

Certainly this deserves to be considered as post of the month

Tough crowd. Lets see his engine has been Dynoed twice now and was essentially the same HP numbers and all you guys want to do is bash him and say its not true.

Nice engine 1fast. Seems Glen should be getting more work from these guys, but what do I know.

40psi, my bad, I just went down there and looked on the door. It is call "xact dyno" not extreme.....Where exactly is the extreme dyno place you spoke of?? I want to go by there.

and Greg, you are stoked for sure. 470hp, S4, 934's, Sandwinder, That is an awsome combo. That thing will take a major beating for sure, can't wait to dune with you.

very entertaining tread

No need to get in this threat.... I still from the first round ...

but a little correction .... Katech builds no NASCAR engines and Corvettes do not run NASCAR

and that a dynoqueen has no idea about turning is logical

So I'm back out working, thanks for the entertainment

It never FAIL'S[attachmentid=28722] This one too [attachmentid=28721]
1Fastdsl congrats on a good strong motor