Off-roaders vs. everyone else
By DEBRA LEMOINE/Staff Writer
VICTORVILLE — The desert’s serenity and wide-open spaces attract residents with conflicting ideas of desert life — those who desire the peace and quiet of a rural area, and those who crave the vast undeveloped lands for their off-road vehicles.
These legitimate desert pleasures can’t be enjoyed in the same place, a situation that can cause friction between neighbors and conflicts between law enforcement and residents on both sides of the issue.
“You have people with two very different expectations of desert life and they’re neighbors,” said Mike Ahrens, off-highway coordinator for the U.S. Bureau of Land Management’s Barstow field office. “You don’t have to be too offensive to be pretty offensive. It doesn’t take a lot of noise and dust to annoy the neighbors.”
Annoyed neighbors include Scott Priester of Victorville who sometimes cannot enjoy his back yard or keep his windows open because of the noise created by the dirt bikes in his neighborhood.
“The problem is like squeezing a balloon — what was occurring in one place will just relocate to another part of the city and bother other residents,” he said. “We can only hope that the land gets developed. That’s the only way to eliminate most of our problem.”
Priester is not alone. The Daily Press received more than 50 phone calls and e-mails from residents frustrated by off-road vehicle riders with similar complaints about the noise and dust.
Callers have complained they can’t open their windows or sit in their back yard because of the dust being stirred up by off-roaders. Some even said the bikers who cruise the right-of-ways behind homes have kicked up enough dirt to clog up their swimming pool filters.
A former dirt bike rider who moved to Apple Valley in 1987, Harry Brink and his friends used to ride in areas where there were no houses in the 1970s. But he believes riders today don’t realize they are bothering residents with their bikes.
“I don’t have a problem with them coming out to ride, but just use some common sense,” Brink said. “We get enough dust and dirt from the wind without the bike riders adding to it. Drive another five minutes to get to a clear area where you can ride without bothering anybody.”
But dirt bikers say they’re stereotyped because of the ones who have no consideration for their neighbors.
“I think anybody who is ignorant enough to ride around in a populated area isn’t smart enough to call themselves a rider,” said Mathew Cadovec of Apple Valley. “It’s the careless and inconsiderate riders that give all the rest of us good riders a bad name.”
Those “bad” riders include the ones who tear up Mark Drummond’s property in Apple Valley off Stoddard Wells Road. Although he labels his property off-limits, he still gets riders that mistake Stoddard Wells Road and the Bell Mountain area for the thousands of acres of Stoddard Valley that the BLM sets aside for off-road vehicles usage.
“I have some numbnut that thinks it is his or her constitutional or civil right to tear up my property,” Drummond said. “Nobody has a right to tear up or destroy my property or contaminate the air that I breathe with the dust they create.”
He said he’s called the police so many times that the deputies at the Apple Valley station for the San Bernardino Sheriff’s Department know his voice. He’s even called the Apple Valley Fire Protection District because the bikers have set bonfires at night.
Rialto resident Robert Turnkill said dirt bike riding is a fun but clean hobby that keeps kids out of trouble. On Saturday, he came to the High Desert with two of his friends to ride in the unofficial but popular area off Highway 395 and Main Street in near Hesperia.
“Somebody’s always going to have a problem with what somebody does,” Turnkill said. “They moved to the desert for their reasons just like we have ours. We’re not all bad guys. A lot of people hold down a nine-to-five job. It’s just recreation.”
But put the arguments for good, clean fun aside and the sport’s danger- and speed-induced adrenaline rushes attract people who like pushing limits and living on the edge.
“We’re all about adrenaline. We don’t want to be limited. We’re always looking for the sickest jump, the sickest ride,” said American Motor Cross racer Kyle Stevenson of Rialto.
In other words, the forbidden sites provides the coolest, fastest ride, he said.
Turnkill said deputies visited the Main Street/395 site on Saturday and that made riders scatter. He believes he was too far out for patrol cars to reach him.
Local and federal jurisdictions caught between two very different ideas of desert life have to balance the conflicting desires of their constituents.
The BLM tries to reduce environmental damage by off-road vehicles by setting aside certain areas where they can ride. Although there is still a problem with damage to the environment, it has been reduced by moving the riders to designated spots.
“It’s out there (illegal riders) and there are little hot spots mainly next to urban and suburban parts where kids, for the most part, ride out from homes and on private land,” Ahrens said. “They are not able to transport themselves and their vehicles to designated areas. Typically it tends to be on private land, which we really have no jurisdiction over. It’s still an issue we’re absolutely keeping our eye on.”
The BLM’s designated areas for off-road vehicles are the Dumont Dunes, Rasor, Johnson Valley, Stoddard Valley and El Mirage Dry Lake.
In the city limits, local law enforcement can cite riders for noise, fire hazards or trespassing, but often the violators far outnumber to deputies assigned to keep them in line.
For example, the Hesperia station of the San Bernardino Sheriff’s Department has four off-road vehicles and seven officers who rotate through the patrols for illegal riders, said Roxanne Walker, sheriff’s spokeswoman.
“People seem to think where there’s a dirt field they can ride,” Walker said.
When patrolling deputies see riders in the wrong area, they stop their car and talk to them. In the more remote areas, the off-road patrols can get to the illegal bikers.
“We are addressing the issue and we want to try to resolve the problem as best we can,” Walker said. “We are out there. All we can do is just keep going back out there. The primary focus is to educate people on where they can ride, especially the people from out of town.”
When deputies are called out to residential areas and the person is gone, there is nothing they can do unless they catch the rider in the act or unless the offended neighbor wants to files a complaint.
But there is only so much law enforcement can do.
Riders who own their own properties are allowed to use them for recreation.
Debra Lemoine can be reached at debra_lemoine@link.freedom.com or 951-6233.
http://www.vvdailypress.com/cgi-bin/newspr...023675045,54302,
Full Version: off roaders vs everyone else
OH NO THAT DOESN'T SOUND ONE SIDED AT ALL. "LETS HOPE IT ALL GETS DEVELOPED"?? IS THAT WHAT THE ENVIROS WANT? ![[Grenade]](graemlins/grenade.gif)
OK Blue here we go again! 1st off, I am a responsible rider that has enjoyed EVERY area listed as legal. The topic started with " offroad riders vs everyone else" Why is it that all of the Nature Nazi groups have targeted ranchers, bicyclists, miners, OHV users, and basically anyone else that doesn't choose to participate in activities the Ecofreak way (on foot)??????
2nd Please explain to me the logic in developing something to keep it from others. Isn't that contradictory to everything the enviro's stand for? where will your precious Kangaroo rats nest if it is solid concrete? Do desert tortises prefer concrete over hot sand and rock?? Have you asked that, Dr. Knowlittle?
Finally, I moved "up" here for the rural lifestyle. I knew when I could see the old Honda Valley riding area from my window, this was the place. Approx. 15 acres down the street from me were graded for housing, but then the builder went tits up. This land has been UNTOUCHED for over 10 years, except for illegal dumpers, and occaisional OHV users. It oversees the BNSF RR tracks at Cajon Summit. Ever listen to a train go by approximately 200 feet from your back door?? ever seen the amount of exhaust from one of these locomotives?? Perhaps you should ban the railroads from using all of OUR land, even if they were there first (just like OHV's in Glamis).
One last thing about the article, it was said that a person can ride on their own property. That is a falsehood! A friend of mine wanted to build a practice track on HIS property (sprinklered and immaculately maintained track at that), petitioned the County Board of Sups for a "permit" to do this, and was shot down because of lobbying from an environmental group based 60 miles away! So much for freedom to homestead. What will you want next Blue?????? My guns??? Feel free to TRY and take them...I'll be waiting in the belltower. Damn Liberals! Mike
[ 06-14-2002, 01:28 PM: Message edited by: Hazmaster ]
2nd Please explain to me the logic in developing something to keep it from others. Isn't that contradictory to everything the enviro's stand for? where will your precious Kangaroo rats nest if it is solid concrete? Do desert tortises prefer concrete over hot sand and rock?? Have you asked that, Dr. Knowlittle?
Finally, I moved "up" here for the rural lifestyle. I knew when I could see the old Honda Valley riding area from my window, this was the place. Approx. 15 acres down the street from me were graded for housing, but then the builder went tits up. This land has been UNTOUCHED for over 10 years, except for illegal dumpers, and occaisional OHV users. It oversees the BNSF RR tracks at Cajon Summit. Ever listen to a train go by approximately 200 feet from your back door?? ever seen the amount of exhaust from one of these locomotives?? Perhaps you should ban the railroads from using all of OUR land, even if they were there first (just like OHV's in Glamis).
One last thing about the article, it was said that a person can ride on their own property. That is a falsehood! A friend of mine wanted to build a practice track on HIS property (sprinklered and immaculately maintained track at that), petitioned the County Board of Sups for a "permit" to do this, and was shot down because of lobbying from an environmental group based 60 miles away! So much for freedom to homestead. What will you want next Blue?????? My guns??? Feel free to TRY and take them...I'll be waiting in the belltower. Damn Liberals! Mike
[ 06-14-2002, 01:28 PM: Message edited by: Hazmaster ]
![[Snore]](graemlins/snore.gif)
“Nobody has a right to tear up or destroy my property or
contaminate the air that I breathe with the dust they create.”
They don't have the right to contaminate the air you breathe? Think again buddy.
contaminate the air that I breathe with the dust they create.”
They don't have the right to contaminate the air you breathe? Think again buddy.
Folks,
This article is quite accurate. I run on the fire trails in the very area they are describing. Nearly every weekend there are people riding illegally on private property and tearing new trails on BLM land.
I've stopped several people and informed them that what they were doing was illegal and have received mostly hostile responses. A few were polite and asked for directions to the nearest legal riding areas. I directed them to the Victor Valley Motorcross Park (1 mile away) or the Stoddard Valley OHV Area (15 miles away). Others have become verbally abusive and even physically threatening.
There is a real issue here that people should consider. These illegal riders are getting much more attention than those riding legally because they are disrupting people's neighborhoods. i would think that most riders would shun these illegal riders since they are doing damage to people's property and because they are giving all riders a bad reputation.
Cheers,
Spider
This article is quite accurate. I run on the fire trails in the very area they are describing. Nearly every weekend there are people riding illegally on private property and tearing new trails on BLM land.
I've stopped several people and informed them that what they were doing was illegal and have received mostly hostile responses. A few were polite and asked for directions to the nearest legal riding areas. I directed them to the Victor Valley Motorcross Park (1 mile away) or the Stoddard Valley OHV Area (15 miles away). Others have become verbally abusive and even physically threatening.
There is a real issue here that people should consider. These illegal riders are getting much more attention than those riding legally because they are disrupting people's neighborhoods. i would think that most riders would shun these illegal riders since they are doing damage to people's property and because they are giving all riders a bad reputation.
Cheers,
Spider
30 years ago I, along with hundreds of others used to ride in a sand pit in a river bottom where a sand company had excavated millions of yards of sand. It was eventually closed down to riding and the sand company also left. Guess what. Now the whole area is full of 40 foot tall cottonwood trees. No sign that anybody ever rode there.
CR500COP:
1. If we stop impacting our natural areas NOW, they can begin to recover, as did your river bottom spot.
2. Desert ecosystems recover much more slowly that riparian (creekside) areas--in some place over a 100 years. Ever seen Jawbone Canyon?
3. Though recovered areas may look natural to the untrained eye, many times (especially in desert areas) many species do not come back at all. For example, the entire Mojave desert area used to be covered with bunchgrass, but cattle and sheep grazing over 100 years ago removed that grass from the desert biome--of course, all the creatures that relied on that grass for sustenance or shade either adapted or moved on.
1. If we stop impacting our natural areas NOW, they can begin to recover, as did your river bottom spot.
2. Desert ecosystems recover much more slowly that riparian (creekside) areas--in some place over a 100 years. Ever seen Jawbone Canyon?
3. Though recovered areas may look natural to the untrained eye, many times (especially in desert areas) many species do not come back at all. For example, the entire Mojave desert area used to be covered with bunchgrass, but cattle and sheep grazing over 100 years ago removed that grass from the desert biome--of course, all the creatures that relied on that grass for sustenance or shade either adapted or moved on.
BlueSky……. It’s always a pleasure to read you ignorant comments. My guess is that if you have the mental capacity to actually hold a job, you are probably one of those people that participates in illegal dumping of toxic waste.
Your mentality is that of the kid in class that farts, then turns to everyone else and say “who farted”
Try studying evolution, and educate yourself on DNA.
Why are you so worried what a desert weed will be in 100-500 years? If we, not just off roaders, but all of the population doesn’t focus on the real problems within the environment, I have to question what the quality of life will be in 100-500 years.
Blue, I would like you to try a small experiment. As you sit at your computer, look around you. I would be willing to bet that not one single item of milkweed is a part of your current environment. Then think about the materials that house you. Products that feed you. Medicines that heal you, or keep you healthy. How about even those jigsaw puzzles you told me about. Just think of all of the environmental issues that have provided you with your jigsaw puzzle. How about transportation that takes you places. Even if you ride your bicycle everywhere. Look at all of the components that make up your bicycle.
I mean this sincerely, look around you, and everything you touch, everything you eat, and everything that supports any lifestyle you have, has had in your words, “an effect on the environment.” EVEN YOU HIKING BOOTS.
You have made your point about not liking off roaders. I can guarantee you one thing. There are countries that offer you a primitive lifestyle that you seem to preach. Live the primitive lifestyle for a few months, then come back and tell us what you think.
Your mentality is that of the kid in class that farts, then turns to everyone else and say “who farted”
Try studying evolution, and educate yourself on DNA.
Why are you so worried what a desert weed will be in 100-500 years? If we, not just off roaders, but all of the population doesn’t focus on the real problems within the environment, I have to question what the quality of life will be in 100-500 years.
Blue, I would like you to try a small experiment. As you sit at your computer, look around you. I would be willing to bet that not one single item of milkweed is a part of your current environment. Then think about the materials that house you. Products that feed you. Medicines that heal you, or keep you healthy. How about even those jigsaw puzzles you told me about. Just think of all of the environmental issues that have provided you with your jigsaw puzzle. How about transportation that takes you places. Even if you ride your bicycle everywhere. Look at all of the components that make up your bicycle.
I mean this sincerely, look around you, and everything you touch, everything you eat, and everything that supports any lifestyle you have, has had in your words, “an effect on the environment.” EVEN YOU HIKING BOOTS.
You have made your point about not liking off roaders. I can guarantee you one thing. There are countries that offer you a primitive lifestyle that you seem to preach. Live the primitive lifestyle for a few months, then come back and tell us what you think.
So Blu... Where can I ride my bike?
You created this situation by closing down places like Glamis then point to it and cry foul because people aren't riding on public land. Lying, cheating and stealing from the public is neither noble or righteous... it is a cowards game for which you appear to be overqualified.
-D
You created this situation by closing down places like Glamis then point to it and cry foul because people aren't riding on public land. Lying, cheating and stealing from the public is neither noble or righteous... it is a cowards game for which you appear to be overqualified.
-D
quote:
So Blu... Where can I ride my bike?
quote:
Riders who own their own properties are allowed to use them for recreation.
Tell us something Blu. What exactly is the factor that determines whether an area is a natural area? What is an unnatural area? Cattle and sheep need to eat too. Why, in your mind, are cattle and sheep less important than other creatures? At least cattle and sheep provide food and clothing for human consumption.
[ 06-24-2002, 09:52 AM: Message edited by: cr500cop ]
[ 06-24-2002, 09:52 AM: Message edited by: cr500cop ]
Blue, since when has private property stopped the CBD and their lawsuit machine?
Do a little reading about the El Coronado ranch in the Chirachaua mountians of Arizona.
A husband and wife team bought the ranch and spend over 1 million dollars revitalizing the land it was on. They were environmental activists themselves who set out to show that with a mind for the environment ranching and environmentalism could go hand in hand. One of their aims was to show other ranchers that having an endangered species on your property is not a liability.
Sadly the CBD proved them wrong. The time and money spent to protect endangered species and the numerous awards from environemntal groups ment nothing when the CBD got a chance to sic the lawyers on El Coronado.
They lost that fight in the courts - and gave envrionmentally friendly ranching a major black eye. The owners of El Coronado learned that it dosen't matter how much good you do to protect the land you use - if the CBD dosen't like it they'll still come after you.
Do a little reading about the El Coronado ranch in the Chirachaua mountians of Arizona.
A husband and wife team bought the ranch and spend over 1 million dollars revitalizing the land it was on. They were environmental activists themselves who set out to show that with a mind for the environment ranching and environmentalism could go hand in hand. One of their aims was to show other ranchers that having an endangered species on your property is not a liability.
Sadly the CBD proved them wrong. The time and money spent to protect endangered species and the numerous awards from environemntal groups ment nothing when the CBD got a chance to sic the lawyers on El Coronado.
They lost that fight in the courts - and gave envrionmentally friendly ranching a major black eye. The owners of El Coronado learned that it dosen't matter how much good you do to protect the land you use - if the CBD dosen't like it they'll still come after you.
Typical Blu (non) answer...
Check things out here in Orange County. The CBD managed to get over 80,000 acres closed. This is privately held land! You know housing here is at a premium (I shouldn't complain as my property is going way up in value) and now there won't be anything built on this land. More long-distance commuting so people can get to the jobs we have here.
Check out Lake Tahoe. The lake level is down because of drought (you can't blame that on us, but I'm sure you'll find a way, even though it won't have a shred of logic behind it). People have bought property there on the lakeshore with the intent of building homes. Enviro-liars have them stopped to protect some plant that grows there only during drought when the level of the lake drops down past a certain point and this plant won't live when the lake is at "normal" levels!!!
Justice has never been a part of the green agenda.
Check out Lake Tahoe. The lake level is down because of drought (you can't blame that on us, but I'm sure you'll find a way, even though it won't have a shred of logic behind it). People have bought property there on the lakeshore with the intent of building homes. Enviro-liars have them stopped to protect some plant that grows there only during drought when the level of the lake drops down past a certain point and this plant won't live when the lake is at "normal" levels!!!
Justice has never been a part of the green agenda.
quote:Whoever wrote this took what he said the wrong way. He's turning what any cool rider/racer would have said into,"Well its our right to use this property because we need to ride fast and jump high." I think that these articles need to be written by enviromentalists AND motorcycle riders
“We’re all about adrenaline. We don’t want to be limited. We’re always looking for the sickest jump, the sickest ride,” said American Motor Cross racer Kyle Stevenson of Rialto.
In other words, the forbidden sites provides the coolest, fastest ride, he said.
It's all politics…… It's all about money. Off roaders tend to be practical, level headed individuals, that appreciate the outdoors as much as anyone else. Difference being is that off roaders are not selfish individuals. We are real people that enjoy sharing activities, enjoying meeting new people, maintaining friends, and value the bond it brings to our families.
I look at there so called “environmentalists” as lonely individuals, that are want to be politicians, but haven’t the brains to become one. So the best they can do, is hammer the system until they get attention, and obtain funding.
It’s all about he squeaky wheel.
Absolutely nothing to do with what is practical.
I look at there so called “environmentalists” as lonely individuals, that are want to be politicians, but haven’t the brains to become one. So the best they can do, is hammer the system until they get attention, and obtain funding.
It’s all about he squeaky wheel.
Absolutely nothing to do with what is practical.
It is also about fanatacism. This is the new religion. And just like all the others before it, non-believers are coerced to convert at the end of the sword. In this case, government force.
quote:Why don't off-roaders notice the damage that their hobby is having on everyone's public lands? Why do off-roaders make excuses for user-made pits on private land?
It's all politics…… It's all about money. Off roaders tend to be practical, level headed individuals, that appreciate the outdoors as much as anyone else. Difference being is that off roaders are not selfish individuals.
It IS all about money. Off roaders are damaging public land for free when they ought to be buying up private land and managing it for their own private recreation. Saving money by stealing it from the public is as level headed and practical as American politicians!
quote:no argument there. Enviros are the same. We just know how to drink a beer around a campfire without first destroying the landscape. Try it you'll like it.
We are real people that enjoy sharing activities, enjoying meeting new people, maintaining friends, and value the bond it brings to our families.
Blusky - I have a question for you. Have you ever heard of a place called Philmont Scout Ranch located in the Sangre de Cristo Mountain Range of New Mexico? If you have, what are you thoughts on it and what they do there?
quote:While I can't claim we have zero impact, the statement about destruction is total bull-****. The earth is tough enough to take anything we can do to it and then some. We aren't that significant. That must bum you out knowing that you are nowhere near as powerful as God. Get used to it.
We just know how to drink a beer around a campfire without first destroying the landscape.
honda girl:
I did a search and Philmont looks like the world's biggest private camp (130,000 acres) in use mainly by Boy Scouts. lots of hiking and horseback riding. sounds neat. have you been there?
I did a search and Philmont looks like the world's biggest private camp (130,000 acres) in use mainly by Boy Scouts. lots of hiking and horseback riding. sounds neat. have you been there?
quote:I'm not worried about the earth for its own sake. I'm worried about the human habitat and how it affects us.
The earth is tough enough to take anything we can do to it and then some. We aren't that significant.
let me ask you this, JET:
Do you think humans should manage the resources of the earth? or should it just be first come first serve? should we worry when fisheries become fished out? should we worry when urban seashores have visible feces in the water? what do you think?
quote:I think you are a subversive psychopath who can't stay on topic.
Do you think humans should manage the resources of the earth? or should it just be first come first serve? should we worry when fisheries become fished out? should we worry when urban seashores have visible feces in the water? what do you think?
Explain to me how fisheries and sewage treatment plants, which, by the way, are heavily regulated in this country, are affected by OHV use in the desert.
quote:FYI, in urban settings people use a MODERN convenience called toilets. I even use them when I am in the desert.
when urban seashores have visible feces in the water?
Yep, those dunes sure look destroyed to me:
http://hitesman.com/jason/sanddunes/trucknclean_sm.jpg
This photo was taken saturday standing in the parking of the OHV staging area at Buttercup. Notice how other than the first small dune or two there are no tracks? That's right, all the "dammage" is gone. The plants out there are also flourishing and are even greener than the ones in my own backyard right now - but I didn't have my camera with me when I went back to the valley where they grow.
Those dunes past the first one or two has absolutely no tracks on them even though a few months ago they were covered in tracks. Just to the west of this area is a place where there's a LOT of vegatation, this past winter that area had more plants and vegatation than the closed area at buttercup even though it was in an open area. Instead of driving through the plants the bikes, quads and buggies stayed on one or two main paths leading through the areas with plants.
If anyone wants to see them I have the original two photos that this image was constructed from. (The seam goes through the rear door handle of the truck and is visible if you look REALLY closely. The dunes have not been retouched or altered from their appearance in real life in any way - though it may look like they have since the compression on this copy of the photo seems to have obliterated much of the detail in the far dunes.
http://hitesman.com/jason/sanddunes/trucknclean_sm.jpg
This photo was taken saturday standing in the parking of the OHV staging area at Buttercup. Notice how other than the first small dune or two there are no tracks? That's right, all the "dammage" is gone. The plants out there are also flourishing and are even greener than the ones in my own backyard right now - but I didn't have my camera with me when I went back to the valley where they grow.
Those dunes past the first one or two has absolutely no tracks on them even though a few months ago they were covered in tracks. Just to the west of this area is a place where there's a LOT of vegatation, this past winter that area had more plants and vegatation than the closed area at buttercup even though it was in an open area. Instead of driving through the plants the bikes, quads and buggies stayed on one or two main paths leading through the areas with plants.
If anyone wants to see them I have the original two photos that this image was constructed from. (The seam goes through the rear door handle of the truck and is visible if you look REALLY closely. The dunes have not been retouched or altered from their appearance in real life in any way - though it may look like they have since the compression on this copy of the photo seems to have obliterated much of the detail in the far dunes.
quote:still waiting for an answer JET
Do you think humans should manage the resources of the earth?
quote:This question is rhetorical, meaning there is no answer and was meant to create more arguements only.
Do you think humans should manage the resources of the earth?
quote:get a clue, Washroad. If you don't take some interest in managing the ISDRA, somebody else will do it for you.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you think humans should manage the resources of the earth?
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This question is rhetorical, meaning there is no answer and was meant to create more arguements only.
Naturally, there are larger ramifications of the decisions that will be made regarding the use of the area. That is what I am asking about. If it's too much for you to think about, OK. But don't answer for the rest of the concerned public resource users on this board.
I am with Blusky on this one. The ISDRA does need to be managed better. We need more bathrooms, campsites and law enforcement to handle the steady increase of visitors each year due to the closing of other legal riding areas by the Socialists.... errr... I mean Liberals.
I think it is funny how BS suggested that we (the public) should buy our own land to ride on so there is more land available for the environazis to spend government money on. I guess the whole "Social Contract" only applies to me when it comes time to pay my taxes and not when I want to share a few thousand acres with 200,000+ other taxpayers.
You change your position on an argument by argument basis. What is the difference if we buy the same amount of land and start riding on it? Wasn't your position about damage to the environment. Now it seems to be about damage to public environment. Does a rabbit, PMV or the gay desert tortise that you are claiming is going to lose its hearing from sound of my exhaust suffer any more or less when it is on private land? It sounds more like a political land and asset grab to me. If you really were concerned about the damage from our activities you wouldn't care if we were on public land or not. Both would be equally acceptable/unacceptable from the environments point of view
How many acres of rain forest have you purchased for your cause? Or are you still waiting for an opportunity to use my money to do it.
I think it is funny how BS suggested that we (the public) should buy our own land to ride on so there is more land available for the environazis to spend government money on. I guess the whole "Social Contract" only applies to me when it comes time to pay my taxes and not when I want to share a few thousand acres with 200,000+ other taxpayers.
You change your position on an argument by argument basis. What is the difference if we buy the same amount of land and start riding on it? Wasn't your position about damage to the environment. Now it seems to be about damage to public environment. Does a rabbit, PMV or the gay desert tortise that you are claiming is going to lose its hearing from sound of my exhaust suffer any more or less when it is on private land? It sounds more like a political land and asset grab to me. If you really were concerned about the damage from our activities you wouldn't care if we were on public land or not. Both would be equally acceptable/unacceptable from the environments point of view
How many acres of rain forest have you purchased for your cause? Or are you still waiting for an opportunity to use my money to do it.
I have a clue, Blue. Several of them.
Yes, the lands should be managed. Yes, they should be managed by humans, just not the "humans" you want.
Time after time, it has been pointed out to you how people have attempted good management of lands only to have some enviroliar that "knows better" come along and shut them down.
Glamis is a great example.
What damage, permanent, has been caused by us riding there? None. You know it, and so do all the other enviroliars. There is more PMV in the "open" areas than in the closed. The tracks we leave in the sand soon disappear.
But then along comes the enviroliars. They whine and complain and file lawsuits. They don't like people enjoying themselves. In fact, they don't like people. So they get things perverted like the ESA and use it against PEOPLE! Strange, that they could hate their own specie so much.
Yes, the lands should be managed. Yes, they should be managed by humans, just not the "humans" you want.
Time after time, it has been pointed out to you how people have attempted good management of lands only to have some enviroliar that "knows better" come along and shut them down.
Glamis is a great example.
What damage, permanent, has been caused by us riding there? None. You know it, and so do all the other enviroliars. There is more PMV in the "open" areas than in the closed. The tracks we leave in the sand soon disappear.
But then along comes the enviroliars. They whine and complain and file lawsuits. They don't like people enjoying themselves. In fact, they don't like people. So they get things perverted like the ESA and use it against PEOPLE! Strange, that they could hate their own specie so much.
quote:good question deez and thanks for asking it.
What is the difference if we buy the same amount of land and start riding on it?
My feeling is that if you owned the land you would take care of it. You wouldn't allow trash pits like at the bottom of comp 10 feet deep. you wouldn't allow dangerous situations to occur where people speed near campsites.
As it is, you reveal your contempt for the public by the way you use public lands. Spend the weekend tearing it up and toss your empties on the road on your way out!!
QUOTE]I'm not worried about the earth for its own sake. I'm worried about the human habitat and how it affects us.
BlueSky…… You made me laugh when you posted YOU were waiting for a reply. It seems to me that there are many on this board that are waiting for answers from you. Many have asked you about your background, your family, your education, but you NEVER answer.
Now about one of your replies. YOUR STATEMENT HAS TO BE ONE OF THE DUMEST, IGNORANT STATEMENTS I HAVE HERD IN YEARS.
“I'm worried about the human habitat and how it affects us.”
Milkweed vs. Family Values: …. multiple generations, healthy, and the unfortunate with poor health. A blend of races, and ages. A mixture of incomes enjoying Glamis dunes.
Seems to me that if there is any Federal money connected for closure for off road vehicles, and foot only traffic allowed. What about HANDICAPPED ACCESS. I seem to remember that little requirement that if Federal money is used, there must be handicap access. So maybe we need to install paved paths through the dunes for wheelchairs.
You do know that there are para pelagic riders in buggies, right?
““I'm worried about the human habitat and how it affects us.”
Lets see, water pollution, industrial pollution, ground water pollution. Contaminated soil. Inadequate sewer systems while building continues on. Energy problems, health problems, and now, Terrorism .
You are right BlueSky. The desert milkweed is really important isn’t it.
If we the citizens of the USA don’t resolve real environmental issues, who knows if there will even be a future as life as we know it for our families to come.
I look at environmental issues as to how do they effect our health today, and in the near future.
Now, in all of your wisdom, tell me about the effects of cooling water in our oceans from nuclear reactors?
How about the effect of treated sewage dumping into our ocean water from treatment plants?
Bring on your endless wisdom BlueSky. Lets see how much you know about some real, daily environmental issues.
BlueSky…… You made me laugh when you posted YOU were waiting for a reply. It seems to me that there are many on this board that are waiting for answers from you. Many have asked you about your background, your family, your education, but you NEVER answer.
Now about one of your replies. YOUR STATEMENT HAS TO BE ONE OF THE DUMEST, IGNORANT STATEMENTS I HAVE HERD IN YEARS.
“I'm worried about the human habitat and how it affects us.”
Milkweed vs. Family Values: …. multiple generations, healthy, and the unfortunate with poor health. A blend of races, and ages. A mixture of incomes enjoying Glamis dunes.
Seems to me that if there is any Federal money connected for closure for off road vehicles, and foot only traffic allowed. What about HANDICAPPED ACCESS. I seem to remember that little requirement that if Federal money is used, there must be handicap access. So maybe we need to install paved paths through the dunes for wheelchairs.
You do know that there are para pelagic riders in buggies, right?
““I'm worried about the human habitat and how it affects us.”
Lets see, water pollution, industrial pollution, ground water pollution. Contaminated soil. Inadequate sewer systems while building continues on. Energy problems, health problems, and now, Terrorism .
You are right BlueSky. The desert milkweed is really important isn’t it.
If we the citizens of the USA don’t resolve real environmental issues, who knows if there will even be a future as life as we know it for our families to come.
I look at environmental issues as to how do they effect our health today, and in the near future.
Now, in all of your wisdom, tell me about the effects of cooling water in our oceans from nuclear reactors?
How about the effect of treated sewage dumping into our ocean water from treatment plants?
Bring on your endless wisdom BlueSky. Lets see how much you know about some real, daily environmental issues.
what does that have to do with the environment? trash at comp and girls taking their tops off does not affect the ecosystem. This is what I mean by changing your point of view to suit the situation. I do not think either is appropriate at Glamis or anywhere else except maybe my bedroom of course but they sure as hell do not hurt the future of a weed. You are not concerned about the environment. Your only goal is to make people that you do not like suffer.
If you want to find wildlife go to the city dump... this is where they prefer to hang out.
-D
If you want to find wildlife go to the city dump... this is where they prefer to hang out.
-D
BS, of course I think the ISDRA should be managed. Managing it doesn't mean closing it down. You and your 'ganggreen' friends are just upset because more of us are taking an active role in how the dunes are managed. I know it must bother you and the rest of the control freaks that what you say is now questioned and not taken as gospel.
um, ok, im a bit confused. bluesky you said that we would manage our own property. i thought you were all against the "tracks" we leave behind. right??? or maybe i missed your point. and you also said that we wouldnt allow trash 10 feet deep like at comp on our own property. i do believe that that trash is so deep because your type will not let us use the beach sweeper to dig it out. oh but wait this brings up another point. you have often said that our tracks dont go away in the dunes. well how do you explain how the trash got to be 10 feet deep??? i know, we dug 10 foot holes and burried it there. ya thats it! dude i dont get you. can you please make up your mind on where you stand on this issue?
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