Full Version: Enviromentalist at fault for millions of acres lost & de
What is this I heard that the huge fires that have so far taken out 300 plus homes & cost ONE MILLION dollars a day to fight COULD have BEEN less damaging if the environmentalist would have allowed controlled burning in the area? I saw this on the 5 A.M. news on ABC. I looked for the story on their and others sites but couldn't find it. If this is true, Environmentalist are truly troubled humans. There is NO defending this if its true.
The USFS is given a certain amount of money each year to operate.
The USFS has stated that it spends 40% of that fighting lawsuits brought by the enviroliars.
That 40% could have much better use; ie: taking care of forests.
People that have died/been injured/lost homes should think about what the enviroliars are doing.
All the residents of the states of Arizona, Colorado and California should sue the groups and find a way to personally sue the leaders of each of them.
And if that isn't enough, I got an old pick-ax handle around here. . . .
The USFS has stated that it spends 40% of that fighting lawsuits brought by the enviroliars.
That 40% could have much better use; ie: taking care of forests.
People that have died/been injured/lost homes should think about what the enviroliars are doing.
All the residents of the states of Arizona, Colorado and California should sue the groups and find a way to personally sue the leaders of each of them.
And if that isn't enough, I got an old pick-ax handle around here. . . .
quote:If they'd've taken care of the forests in the first place (not just clearcutting) They wouldn't have been sued and they wouldn't have lost the suit.
The USFS has stated that it spends 40% of that fighting lawsuits brought by the enviroliars.
That 40% could have much better use; ie: taking care of forests.
You are completely right. I live in Phoenix and can see the smoke plume from here. It is a huge fire.
The forest service guy said the other day when a section of the fire hit a controlled burn area that was burned about two years ago he said the flames went from 300 ft to 4-5 ft.
It is sooooo dry here. The forests are sooo overgrown.
Does everybody know that Arizona has the largest Ponderosa Pine forrest in the country. Many think AZ is just a desert.
I have 5 friends that are "Hot Shots" working on the fires and another friend that has a huge guest ranch northeast of Show Low.
It's cooler today here. The humidity is up and clouds are in the sky. Hopefully it will help.
The fires have consumed over 400 structures and is close to burning over 400,000 acres. That's the size of L.A.
O% Contained.
The forest service guy said the other day when a section of the fire hit a controlled burn area that was burned about two years ago he said the flames went from 300 ft to 4-5 ft.
It is sooooo dry here. The forests are sooo overgrown.
Does everybody know that Arizona has the largest Ponderosa Pine forrest in the country. Many think AZ is just a desert.
I have 5 friends that are "Hot Shots" working on the fires and another friend that has a huge guest ranch northeast of Show Low.
It's cooler today here. The humidity is up and clouds are in the sky. Hopefully it will help.
The fires have consumed over 400 structures and is close to burning over 400,000 acres. That's the size of L.A.
O% Contained.
[ 06-27-2002, 11:16 AM: Message edited by: Spider ]
quote:If they'd've taken care of the forests in the first place (not just clearcutting) They wouldn't have been sued and they wouldn't have lost the suit.[/QB][/QUOTE]
Originally posted by Bluesky:
Blue you just don't get it do you? What do you mean "take care of the forest"? Why don't you you & your kind realize you have NO IDEA how to manage land? 400 homes!!! 400 familys that didn't have to loose their home if your type wouldn't of played God. Blue do your damn reserch and tell us how they could of done a better job.
what's your solution Elvis? clear cut the whole forest?
quote:OH YOU SON OF A *****!!! I was 2 and a half paragraphs into a response and it hit me. Why am I even wasting my time with an answer to such a stupid question from a person like you.
Originally posted by Bluesky:
what's your solution Elvis? clear cut the whole forest?
Elvis wrote:
Do you believe in management Elvis?
quote:There's lots of documentation about for all kinds of technologies, including forest management. Managing our lands would include consideration for the entire ecosystem, not just one or another resource. If the USFS was allowing so many trees to be harvested and sold that it was affecting the continued existence of one or more of the native forest creatures, and they were sued under the ESA and had their day in court and lost, they should rethink their management strategy.
Blue you just don't get it do you? What do you mean "take care of the forest"? Why don't you you & your kind realize you have NO IDEA how to manage land? 400 homes!!! 400 familys that didn't have to loose their home if your type wouldn't of played God. Blue do your damn reserch and tell us how they could of done a better job.
Do you believe in management Elvis?
Blu,
I notice your normal cocky attitude is missing. Is that because you know the environmentalists are the reason for these out of control fires. Can you say ROADLESS ANIATIVE! You and you kind make me sick,How can you sleep at night. Controlled logging is the answer. fire roads are the answer. Controlled burns are the answer ,but you enviro extremist have fought hard to put an end to most if not all of that. I guess 300 square miles of burnt trees are better in your mind than implementing control measures.
I notice your normal cocky attitude is missing. Is that because you know the environmentalists are the reason for these out of control fires. Can you say ROADLESS ANIATIVE! You and you kind make me sick,How can you sleep at night. Controlled logging is the answer. fire roads are the answer. Controlled burns are the answer ,but you enviro extremist have fought hard to put an end to most if not all of that. I guess 300 square miles of burnt trees are better in your mind than implementing control measures.
quote:can you?
Can you say ROADLESS ANIATIVE!
__________________________________________________
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have you seen this?
STATE PRESSURED FOREST SERVICE TO HALT FUELS REDUCTION
PROJECT IN RODEO BURN AREA
GOVERNOR HULL SCAPEGOATS ENVIRONMENTALISTS FOR LARGEST
FIRES IN ARIZONA HISTORY
As Arizona faces its largest wildfire in history with
hundreds of homes destroyed and thousands of people
evacuated from their homes, Governor Jane Hull has
seized upon the tragedy to advance her own anti-environmental
agenda: On Sunday, June 23rd, Hull appeared on television
to blame environmentalists for the fire.
The Governor predictably failed to explain how environmentalists
were to blame for the fires. Additionally, the Governor
failed to mention 1) that a prescribed fire set by
the U.S. Forest Service to reduce fuel loads within
the burned area was stopped by state intervention,
2) the vast majority of the Apache-Sitgreaves National
Forests have been previously logged by the U.S. Forest
Service, 3) a recent report by the Government Accounting
Office (GAO) found that only 1% of Forest Service fuel
reduction projects were challenged with appeals or
lawsuits, and 4) a second recent report by the GAO
found that the Forest Service has misdirected funds
from its massive fuels reduction budget away from the
protection of rural communities threatened by fire.
The Los Angeles Times recently reported that a prescribed
fire set by the U.S. Forest Service to reduce fuels
in what is now the Rodeo-Chediski fire was stopped
by unwarranted intervention by state agencies:
"When controlled burns were set recently in the Apache
Sitgreaves National Forest, where the Rodeo fire now
rages, nearby residents complained to state air quality
officials about the smoke. The state pressured Forest
Service officials to extinguish the blazes prematurely,
Anderson (planner on the Apache-Sitgreaves National
Forest) said. "Other plans to start controlled burns
have been blocked by litigation, he said." (17 Blazes
Charring the West, Los Angeles Times, 6-23-02).
The Governor's scapegoating of environmentalists is
fundamentally inaccurate. The Center for Biological
Diversity (CBD), Sierra Club, Southwest Forest Alliance
and other environmental organizations have long supported
the use of both prescribed fire and thinning of small-diameter
trees as the most effective methods to reduce fire
danger within Southwestern ponderosa pine forests.
Ironically, CBD sits on Governor's Forest Health/Fire
Plan Advisory Committee, a group appointed by Jane
Hull to advise governor on community protection and
forest restoration issues and to make recommendations
on where to spend National Fire Plan funds. We also
are on Senator Bingaman's (D-NM) Community Forest Restoration
Program Advisory Committee, which is charged with distribution
of $ 5 million annually to rural communities for forest
restoration and community protection.
"The Governor is opportunistically and cynically using
this on-going tragedy to further an anti-environmental
agenda," stated Brian Segee with CBD. "Not only do
we strongly support community protection efforts such
as wildland-urban interface treatments, prescribed
burning and small-diameter thinning, we are deeply
involved in on-going collaborative and governmental
efforts to make such goals a reality."
Independent studies conducted by the federal government
also directly contradict charges that environmental
organizations are preventing needed fuels reduction
projects from being completed. As stated in an August
2001 report by the Government Accounting Office (GAO),
an independent investigative branch of Congress:
"In summary, as of July 18, 2001, the Forest Service
has completed the necessary environmental analysis
and had decided to implement 1,671 hazardous fuel reduction
projects in fiscal year 2001. Of these projects, 20
(about 1 percent) had been appealed and none had been
litigated. Appellants included environmental groups,
recreation groups, private industry interests, and
individuals."
Under the National Fire Plan, passed in the wake of
2000's intense fire season, the Forest Service and
other federal agencies were given over $2 billion
to thin brush and small-diameter trees, with an emphasis
on community protection. GAO research has concluded
that the Forest Service could not account for how this
money was being spent. In a January 2002 GAO report
entitled "Severe Wildland Fires: Leadership and Accountability
Needed to Reduce Risks to Communities and Resources,"
it is stated:
"Over a year after the Congress substantially increased
funds to reduce hazardous fuels, the federal effort
still lacks clearly defined and effective leadership
. . .it is not possible to determine if the $796 million
appropriated for hazardous fuels reduction in fiscal
years 2001 and 2002 is targeted to the communities
and other areas at highest risk of severe wildland
fires."
Finally, forgotten in the Governor's continued and
escalating attack against environmentalists is the
fact that almost all of the Apache-Sitgreaves National
Forests where the two fires are burning has been intensively
logged. Almost no area along the relatively flat and
easily accessible Mogollon Rim has been spared from
logging.
For more information, http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/P...fire/index.html
OHMYGAWD!!!
You cited the CBD?
They are more out of touch with both reality and the truth than you are!
Yes, I'm attacking the messenger here. In this case, they are known to be pathiological liars.
You cited the CBD?
They are more out of touch with both reality and the truth than you are!
Yes, I'm attacking the messenger here. In this case, they are known to be pathiological liars.
quote:SEE! Right there in your own citation.
"Other plans to start controlled burns
have been blocked by litigation, he said." (17 Blazes
Charring the West, Los Angeles Times, 6-23-02).
I don't even read your entire replies anymore Blu because they are so rediculous. ![[Angry Fire]](graemlins/angryfire.gif)
Blu, What the hell do you think the massive forest fires of Arizona and Colorado are doing to the affect of the continued existance of one or more of the native forest creatures???????????????????????? ![[Mad]](mad.gif)
GEEEEZZZ BLU, USE YOUR HEAD FOR SOMETHING OTHER THAN A HAT RACK
[ 06-26-2002, 03:56 PM: Message edited by: cr500cop ]
Blu, What the hell do you think the massive forest fires of Arizona and Colorado are doing to the affect of the continued existance of one or more of the native forest creatures???????????????????????? GEEEEZZZ BLU, USE YOUR HEAD FOR SOMETHING OTHER THAN A HAT RACK
[ 06-26-2002, 03:56 PM: Message edited by: cr500cop ]
Thats the best you can do Blu? Quotes from the CBD and the LA Times! Two of the most left wing bleeding heart liberal pro extremist enviro groups around. You can do better than that.
Ask any firefighter why these fires over the last few years have gotten so huge and out of control. He will tell you the truth. Enviro extreme groups handcuffing there ability to prevent them in the first place.
Thanks Bill Clinton.Daniel patterson, the Sierra Club. Blu
Ask any firefighter why these fires over the last few years have gotten so huge and out of control. He will tell you the truth. Enviro extreme groups handcuffing there ability to prevent them in the first place.
Thanks Bill Clinton.Daniel patterson, the Sierra Club. Blu
Thats the best you can do Blu? Quotes from the CBD and the LA Times! Two of the most left wing bleeding heart liberal pro extremist enviro groups around. You can do better than that.
Ask any firefighter why these fires over the last few years have gotten so huge and out of control. He will tell you the truth. Enviro extreme groups handcuffing there ability to prevent them in the first place.
Thanks Bill Clinton.Danie lPatterson, the Sierra Club. Blu
Ask any firefighter why these fires over the last few years have gotten so huge and out of control. He will tell you the truth. Enviro extreme groups handcuffing there ability to prevent them in the first place.
Thanks Bill Clinton.Danie lPatterson, the Sierra Club. Blu
quote:I would ask a firefighter about his area of expertise--fighting fires. I would do my own research as to the reasons why fires have gotten so huge and out of control.
Ask any firefighter why these fires over the last few years have gotten so huge and out of control. He will tell you the truth. Enviro extreme groups handcuffing there ability to prevent them in the first place.
can you cite any references to support your assertion that Enviro groups have handcuffed fire prevention efforts?
A large part of firefighting is preventing the situation that will cause a fire in the first place. Any firefighters out there that can back that one up?
A thought for all of you. It has been proven that in the early ages fires thined the forest and that is what kept things at a eve keel. in a national preserve (or park?) if A fire starts you are not allowed to put it out. So if fire is good what is wrong with controlled burns to maintain natural fire breaks on areas were no thining or harvesting is allowed.
By the way my wife has a forestry degree and a masters in plant and soil science so my family are not uneducated morons as you may think blue
Doc
By the way my wife has a forestry degree and a masters in plant and soil science so my family are not uneducated morons as you may think blue
Doc
[ 06-27-2002, 02:24 PM: Message edited by: carmanea ]
Bad News: More homes in danger today. My close friends dad just got a call last night that their cabin community got put on standby to evacuate. If the fire jumps the Young Highway they are doomed. The cabin community he has lived in for the last 20+ years is 4 miles away from the fire.
They are going up today to help all the neighbors clear out their cabins and horses.
They are going up today to help all the neighbors clear out their cabins and horses.
The controlled burns have been stopped primarily by local residents who get annoyed by the smoke and are afraid that another Los Alamos will break out.
Thinning the forest certainly works but not in the way that some anti-ecos believe. The large trees can slow down fires, while smaller trees tend to provide ample fuel. The logging companies like the big trees, not the little ones and are not interested in clearing them out.
Blaming these fires on environmentalist is pathetic. It shows no understanding of what various environmental groups have actually tried to do and what has actually happened politically in these areas.
Spider
Thinning the forest certainly works but not in the way that some anti-ecos believe. The large trees can slow down fires, while smaller trees tend to provide ample fuel. The logging companies like the big trees, not the little ones and are not interested in clearing them out.
Blaming these fires on environmentalist is pathetic. It shows no understanding of what various environmental groups have actually tried to do and what has actually happened politically in these areas.
Spider
Blu & Spider,
Who has the equipment to thin the forests?
Should they not be able to profit from their
work?
How much lumber can you get from a 6" diameter
tree?
Do you guys work for free?
Who has the equipment to thin the forests?
Should they not be able to profit from their
work?
How much lumber can you get from a 6" diameter
tree?
Do you guys work for free?
quote:anybody can buy a chain saw
Who has the equipment to thin the forests?
quote:you could offer small trees as free fire wood to those that cut it.
Should they not be able to profit from their
work?
quote:I don't get paid for everything I do. Do you?
Do you guys work for free?
Your position seems to be that the only way to prevent forest fires is to clear cut the forests. Is that right?
You guys make me sick. Over all, can you say Enviomentalist helped or hurt the situation in ANY way? Just answer that one question PLEASE.
Doorland,
I don't understand your response. What I stated about the lumber companies is a very simple fact. They want the larger trees because they are far better for lumber, and they can make more money off of them. I don't get why you think I'm asking them to work for free. The fact is the larger trees also slow down the progress of fires. This is pretty simple stuff.
I did not say they should only take the smaller trees. Part of the management of the forest should be to keep track of how logging is altering the forest and making it more prone to these extremely fast moving and hot burning fires.
The input of locals also needs to be weighed against the overall health of the forest. Few people want to have controlled burns near their homes, because most folks think a fire such as this one will never happen. The same thinking explains why people moved into those apartments in the Marina in San Francisco not long after the quake in '89. It won't happen again, right? So why do we need all of these building regulations?
I don't understand your response. What I stated about the lumber companies is a very simple fact. They want the larger trees because they are far better for lumber, and they can make more money off of them. I don't get why you think I'm asking them to work for free. The fact is the larger trees also slow down the progress of fires. This is pretty simple stuff.
I did not say they should only take the smaller trees. Part of the management of the forest should be to keep track of how logging is altering the forest and making it more prone to these extremely fast moving and hot burning fires.
The input of locals also needs to be weighed against the overall health of the forest. Few people want to have controlled burns near their homes, because most folks think a fire such as this one will never happen. The same thinking explains why people moved into those apartments in the Marina in San Francisco not long after the quake in '89. It won't happen again, right? So why do we need all of these building regulations?
Speaking from experience Spider, I'd rather have a controlled burn by my house, as opposed to an outta control wildfire. Since the topic of forest management has been broached here, whenever a fire, other than a lightning strike occurs, we switch into management by crisis mode. All of our actions are reactive, not controlled and proactive. As far as downstrikes go, each region of the Country has their own policies on "let burn" or extinguish. Nice little lightning fire is harmless, compared to the techniques used to put it out, right? Tell that to the relatives of the crews that died on Storm King Mt. in Colorado a few years ago.
One other quick question for everyone...is it better to torch all of the tree stands in the forest, or get some use of the resources there while providing a fire break? Maybe we can start using charcoaled lumber for all of our needs. I think i'll build my next home with it. I'll never have to worrry about using air fresheners again, with the fine aroma of incomplete combustion wafting through my home.
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