I was reading through the 2006 Glamis Cleanup thread and it has turned into opinions on not for profit and for profit groups/corporations. This makes me wonder about who are the not for profits corps and who are the for profit corps?

Can anyone confirm which of the groups that are helping in the fight have corporations registered as Non-Profits according to IRS 501©(3)?

ASA, Duners, ORBA, Friends of Oceano, etc.,?

I am not sure who they all are I can only account for three ASA, ORBA, and UDG.
If you want a list go to ORBA.biz (sorry I don't know how to make a link) scroll down on the home page.

Jarrod

Thanks sandaddicted. Friends of Oceano is a non-profit as well as the San Diego Off Road Coalition.

Is Duners a registered 501©(3) not for profit corporation?

I thnk we are getting off track here. I dont think anyone cares who is running the clean-up and whether or not they are for profit or non-profit.
I think the issue is if the clean-up will a commercialized event. Will vendors be allowed to come in, set up booths and sell their goods. By vendors I dont mean those who have booths at vendor row, Im talking about other companies comming in and making the clean-up a "swap meet" type event...a mini SSSS.

I have no dought that ASA will come in and sell raffle tickets, they did that last year, and Im not completly against that. They are using those funds to fight the fight... This year they will just do it with the event coordinators permission.

But the commercial for profit businesses...will they be there selling there goods? That is the question at hand. That is what I feel will keep people away. And break away from the true intent of the clean-up for the last 8 years.

Tom. Who is getting off track here? This thread was started by myself, how can the person initiating the thread be off track? If after reading the other thread I have a valid question regarding who is a not for profit corp and who is, that is certainly my perogative to ask.

Why in the world would you ask that question in this thread? It has nothing to do with who is involved in the clean up or not, it was a thought triggered by the thread, hence a new one.

Perplexing response.

The ASA is a registered as an IRS 501 C (4) Corporation and is a California State Code Section 23701 (f) Corporation

There are many different "non-profit" IRS tax exemptions. A 501c(3) is one of the most restrictive exemptions. There are several restrictions on activities of such groups. But, 501c(3) organizations are not only tax exempt, but donations to the same are tax deductable.

I used to know the "non-profit" status of most of the OHV organizations, but time has blurred my memory. CORVA, ASA, CA4WDC, etc. are not 501c (3)'s and donations are not tax deductable.

Since Vicki is the moderator of this section and is the president of DUNERS she should be able to answer this question.

Jarrod

40psi, I think you are confusing things a bit. Non-profit orgs are not all 501c3's. ORBA is not a 501c3. Like duck said, the c3 bit is more restrictive. c3's can't lobby directly for example. Donations are not always tax deductible with the different non-profits. Check first.

Friends of Sand Mountain was supposed to be all set up a few years back, but we found out it wasn't filed properly and the new paperwork is in motion for 501c3.

Friends of Oceano is a 501c3 and I think Friends of Dumont may have filed the paperwork too.

She sure is and she sure can.

Nope, DUNERS is not a not-for-profit organization.

So far it hasn't been a major focus, as it's not required to do what we do... rocking the boat isn't a very profitable "business."

Some day, if it becomes important, like if someone donates a car and we don't want to drown in taxes, we'll put it back to the top of the list to pursue.

Vicki

Jon, you are so right. c3 is very restrictive... not impossible to deal with, but it does make it much more paperwork driven.

Vicki

HEHEH. your right...I guess I forgot I changed topics...not you...Opps. My bad...It sucks being human.

Crow. Thanks. I understand there are a few variations, my question was focused on c3 and really c4's, which have full tax donation deduction status if I am correct. I like to understand how the various orginizations are formed, as it provide myself with insight into the mindsights of the various groups. Thanks everyone for the input.

Vicki, as the president for DUNERs, can you clarify the organizations status for us?

What kind of organization is DUNERs?

Is it listed as corporation in Ca, or any state?

If so, what kind of corporation is it listed as?

How does DUNERs present itself at the events?

Is it plainly posted that DUNERs at the shows, on the web site, and in publications that DUNERs is NOT a non-profit group?

I always thought, like many of us, that DUNERs was a non-profit group. Many of us have donated to DUNERs, myself included, believing DUNERs is non-profit.

If DUNERs is not registered as a non-profit group, then can the money donated be used for any purpose, or no purpose at all?

What assurances do we have that money donated to DUNERs is used for the intended purposes?

I'm not accusing anyone of wrong doing, but when money is involved and without legal protections, it can lead to abuses and even worse.


(edited for spelling)

Gee Tim, do you want your $20 back?

We are not currently a not-for-profit or non-profit organization. Not sure what other clarification you would be looking for? Are we plainly listed as such in our literature, etc.? No. Actually fundraising or anything to do with money isn't highlighted in any respect.

We are a California Corporation, status is "active." What kind of corporation is it listed as? Tim, I'm sure there was some type of technical specification but I don't even remember it. We filled out the papers under an attorney's guidance and followed his instructions.

How does DUNERS present itself at the events? As an organization fighting for DUNERS' rights at Glamis, of course. We talk about the Junior Duners program, the cleanups, the certification classes that are starting up, the sound restrictions, "zero tolerance" at Glamis, comp hill closures, camping limits, RAMP expectations, etc.

Unlike many others, when someone approaches our booth the first question we ask is not "what do you want to buy." Heck, half the time we forget we have t-shirts people can buy. Our first question is either "Do you go to Glamis" or, if it's obvious they do, we ask "Do you know about the [sound restrictions] [ATV certification requirement] [new RAMP] [etc.]."

Don't get me wrong, I understand the need for fundraising. It just isn't our focus and is not part of our "presentation."

Vicki
[edited to correct typos]

It’s interesting that you never mentioned it when you signed up either time. I’m surprised you didn’t ask for clarification or a receipt or something, since it seems to be so very important to you now.


This question is confusing to me but I think what you’re asking is can the money just sit there, or can DUNERS arbitrarily decide where the money will go?

Just like any other organization/corporation, even those claiming non-profit status, unless the donor specifies where they want the money to go, it can be used for whatever intent and purpose the organization chooses, even for salaries of officers. Of course there are probably restrictions but I’m willing to bet even those could be bent. I wouldn’t know anything about that… the money DUNERS gets is minimal and goes right back out the door. Our out-go far exceeds our in-come

We have received donations tied to specific requests, like helping defray costs of our Sacramento trips, and we’ve only ever received just enough to cover those costs. Same as with the cleanup. We have only raised just barely enough money to cover the specific costs of the cleanup. For instance, one of the attorneys in my office donated the exact amount we needed in order to have that Coleman grill as a giveaway. It was $139 plus tax and that’s what he wrote the check for. No cushion for even the gas used to pick it up or the phone bills finding the best price.

Fundraising for the sake of gathering a warchest has never been our “thing.”

And speaking of warchest, yes, the money can just sit there gathering interest too. When a corporation/organization disbands, that’s when the final distribution of assets just laying around becomes an issue.


The same as with anyone else you give your money to, of course. In DUNERS’ case, the “intended purpose” is the fight for Glamis, and that’s where the money goes.


Of course not. But it sure is tittilating to suggest impropriety, isn’t it?


Egad, you are so right. Tim, I’ve got some bad news for you. There are no “legal protections” unless you pursue them. Why, there are organizations out there who gather all sorts of money using unethical methods and unless someone pursues retribution, they continue their unethical acts unabated. I know, it’s shocking and shameful.

Vicki

I know it couldn't possibly be true, but sometimes I actually get the feeling there are those in the duning community that would like to see DUNERS fail and will use any opportunity or salacious thought to bring about that failure, or at least cast enough doubt as to lose support.

We could do so much more if we weren't wasting our time with petty stuff like this thread here. I have things I have to do for Glamis today but after having to justify myself/DUNERS yet again, I don't have the heart for it.

Does it really matter, in the grand scheme of things, whether DUNERS is non profit or not? Of course not. Other than the cleanup, which costs more money to stage than it takes in, no one donates any substantial money anyway and yet everyone reaps the benefits of our successes.

40PSI isn't a member or a donor and Tim, well, if he wants his $20 back all he has to do is ask. Watch some of the "lurkers" and minor posters in my forum and you'll see quite a list of people who only post when they smell DUNERS blood.

I just don't get it. How could such a thing be true? How could it be a bad thing to have more than one organization fighting for Glamis? Heck, if there were twenty organizations focusing on the ISDRA there would still be enough issues left over for twenty more.

Well, here's some bad news for those of you who simply want me, or DUNERS to go away.

IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

Glamis and her fans deserve better protection than they were getting before DUNERS started up.

Our favorite sandbox deserves better.

Go ahead and keep tossing out those red herrings.

We're not going away.

Vicki

Boy, must be slow over there. Wait its always slow over there.

Im not a member of DUNERS. But god dam that is the funniest most truthful statement of the decade!

Like I said it must be slow over there.

40 PSI,

Donations to the ASA are not tax deductible, at this point anyway. Maybe someday it will change. I can't tell you anything about any other organization.

Vicki,

I always thought DUNERS was a non-profit. The Secretary of State in California said you had "non profit status" and were currently in "good standing." So now I'm a bit confused.

I believe all 40 PSI was trying to find out is which orgs are "for profit" and "non profit." Many people will not donate to a group/org if they don't like the "status" of it even if they are supportive of their mission.

Due to the objectives and goals of the ASA, I don't ever see the ASA's status changing to 501-c3. Because of our lobbing efforts, donations to the ASA are not tax deductable.

I would like to put the non-profit issue into some perspective.

There are many forms of registration for a non-profit corporation. There are Federal IRS registrations, California Secretary of State, State Board of Equalization and Franchise Tax Board registrations. In California the ASA, Duners, and many other dune related organizations and clubs, like R&R Duners, are registered as a “Domestic Non Profit Corporation”.

You may use the following link to research California Corporations.

https://businessfilings.ss.ca.gov/

Being registered as a nonprofit in California does not mean that a corporation has completed the federal IRS registration and is listed as a non profit under the IRS regulations code section 501 as a non profit corporation or has completed the California Franchise Tax Board registration.

Non profit and tax exempt are used to describe some of these organizations. This is a little misleading as these organizations are not exempt from all taxes. Income earned from investments, such savings accounts, is taxed and sales of merchandise are subject to sales tax.

Here is link to some information on California Tax Except status.

http://www.ftb.ca.gov/forms/misc/927.pdf

I know this may not answer all the questions posed here but may give you some more avenues of research.

Thank you Mr. Holliday!

That basically answers my question.

Sailaway,
Thanks for putting into words what has been apparent for quite some time. It almost seems like those that are the nay sayers would like to see all the organizations go away, not just the DUNERS. All most like they're being orchestrated from some other organization, you know, the anti-OHV places.

I wonder what the true motivation is for those that pose these foolish questions about non-profit, for-profit, who gives to the ASA, etc.

It surely isn't a motivation to keep the dunes open, not from what I've read.

I'm glad you're on our, meaning those of us who really do want to keep public land open to the public, side. I truly appreciate what you do for us.

Thanks.

Thank you very much.

But here's a little head's up... you are about to be slammed with private messages, emails and maybe even phone calls from people telling you not to support me or DUNERS. It has happened over and over again.

I can give you a script that they'll follow if you'd like.

Welcome back to high school.

Vicki

Vicki..I'm sure you don't let that slow you down one bit. I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of duners support everyone who's working to keep the dunes open and beautiful, from the guy who just picks up trash on his own, all the way to the folks who run the "orgs" big and small. I know I sure do. Most of us don't do well at "politics" as all we really want to do is go play in the sand and have fun with our families and friends. It's just the dang eco-nazi's won't let us do that...

It makes me shake my head in disbelief from time to time

But stop me? Never. And if it ever does knock me down, when I get up I'm meaner and more determined than ever

Vicki

DAMN, I go away for 5 days and WOW......

REMEDY.............. (the only one)

GO ANYWHERE AND PUT YOUR TOES IN THE SAND, AND WIGGLE THEM....

There now, doesn't that feel better......... It's going to be a long summer.

Washroad. Thank you. You are correct in the bottom statement, I just posted to find out the current status of the various org's for "exactly" the reasons you mention. While other people may not care what an organizations operational status is (which is fine), I do, so I can better understand the thought patterns behind the groups and where to invest my hard earned cash in the future.

Had no idea it would be such a sensitive subject with some.

Being a non-profit or not being non-profit makes absolutly no difference in who, how, why or when the orgs spend the money you donate. As far as how the orgs operate, it make no difference. But you allready know that. I am pretty confident that even if DUNERs was non-profit and you could write all your donations off, it wouldn't change a thing for you. And thats fine. But it is nice of you to have this all pointed out so now you can act concerned about which orgs you donate to...like there was ever an option...

Its almost as if some of these posts are scripted, most people here know exactly what your going to post next...if only our readers were as dumb as some may think they are...

Good thing nobody from DUNERs has ever asked you for a donation huh? Those evil money grubbing whores...

Edited to remove a comment I made on behalf of others...

My goodness you seem upset and almost bitter about this subject and for what reason? Evil, money grubbing whores? Where in the world do you get that from this thread? Frankly, I have not met a single person posting on this thread nor I have ever spoken with one of them, so I am not quite sure about the insinuation. Can you spell it out for me since this is a public forum?

In regards to your comment, "being a non-profit or not being a non-profit makes absolutely no difference in who, how, why or when the orgs spend money you donate", that is a ridiculous statement and seems scripted and defensive in nature. It certainly makes a significant difference in how money is accounted for in public record keeping. It has been my experience that those who have a public accountability of finanances are FAR more judicious with funds than those who are not.

And which orgs have you done an audit,Sounds like you have done this? Public records my asssss.Why dont you people just grow up and admit that you just dont like each others group.I personally will give my money to people that i trust. And i wont give my money to someone who is always trying tooo sell me something.Hey buy my hat its only 10.00,But i already have a hat on , yea but its not our hat, well u know what , i will never buy your fn hat.--------TomsBrother

For those of you that think it doesn't matter what type of not for profit an organization is are dearly mistaken. It's very unfortunate that becasue of the lobbying issues, donations to certain oranizations are not tax deductible. I know in my situation and sure there are many others, where contributions could be substantial if it were. Sorry, but it's the accountant in me

I must applaud those that give their time though. Volunteer hours a really more valuable than cash. Wish I had the time to give, hopefully in retirement I'll be able to give.

You are absolutely right about this.

I always hear "what can I do for DUNERS, do you need money, what do you need?" and the response is always the same, WE NEED YOUR INPUT.

On Saturday we did a lot of talking about the AMA and how people think it should be run. It would be dandy to get people to start formulating some good plans for that.

And the last DAC meeting could have used a few more people in attendance.

Yes, absolutely, volunteers are the life blood of most pro-access groups.

And ours are the best

Vicki

In truth..I don't think I've ever seen DUNERS ask anybody for a cash donation, (excluding the Clean up, which doesn't count), sell a raffle ticket, hat T-shirt etc.
Yeah, they have a membership fee. BFD.

Now, us ASA types...well...LOL...I don't think we are evil, nor whores....but....we COULD be classified as money grubbing ( and I know Tom did not mean the ASA, and I am talking with tongue firmly in cheek).

Our legal and biological objectives and safety programs need the $$$ to be sucsessfull.

Thanks Lloyd. I was starting to think you totally misread my post. But you didn't.
Money has never been a concern of DUNERs. Not in the past and probably not in the future. So for DUNERs, non-profit or not has never been a concern. Why be concerned about something that you dont do...fundraising?
ven at the clean-ups, I dont think DUNERs asked for donations rather DUNERs asked for sponsorship of the event. In fact, money was returned to some sponsors because the income from sponsorship was higher than the expenses incurred. So, yes, money was refunded to some.

If DUNERs was out fundraising, gathering and spending hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands of dollars, you bet the tax status would become important.

Thanks for seeing the light Lloyd...

Who the hell are you? Don't like each others group? What the hell are you talking about?

You can give your money to whomever you please, I could care less what you think, you don't even know me so try calling someone else out.

40 PSI... I belong to the BlueRibbon Coalition and they are a non-profit and donations ARE tax deductable... They are a very good organization with sound structure and I've been a member now for 5 years.

You can even look at their tax records too...
http://www.sharetrails.org/index.cfm?page=16

I just signed up 5 new members for them last week at work. I still couldn't convince my supervisor to join up,,, he just doesn't do those types of things,,, maybe someday...

And R&R Duners is a 501( c ) 7 organization,,, A Social Club...

(edited for a spelling error and to remove all my hidden messages...)

Heck, with all da love dat comes at SailAway, DUNERs has gots to be rolling in da money. "Hey SailAway, get off dat mound of cash you's been hiding from receiving all them donations and get to work. DAMN, don't ya hate it when folks sell out????"

And yet some will read slaps post and just say Huh?
Awsome post slap. Thanks

Vicki

Hey Slap, where's the picture of Vicki on that pile of $$$. I'd like to see that cartoon.....

Vicki

Be careful what you ask for...

Oh the irony..................

Clean dunes and unrestricted access, that's all that matters. I don't care who sponsors, runs, sells out, or what ever tedious little names you want to put on it.

Does anyone really thing the CBD, Sierra Club, Greenpeace, or any of the other eco-nazi organizations would give back money or organizational skills donated by businesses. Perhaps that's why this fight is taking so long, they look better organized.

Have you looked through their boards lately, there's none of this in-fighting about who gives how much to what org, is it for profit or non-profit, etc. They're taking the money and running, straight to court to keep us, the off-roading public, out of public lands. And what's worse, once they've done that, we end up paying the bill through fees and permits.

Why should it matter if it takes GM, GE, or the US Army, to run the event. How can that be selling out, when the out come will benefit our way of life. If you don't think its being done right, step up and volunteer to run it. See how far you get with no financial support. Do you really think people are going to go running the other way, just because supporting vendors set up booths to showcase their products.

What if the original county fair organizers said they wouldn't accept sponsorship, because it was "commercializing" the event.


Show some facts, some data; some kind of statistics that people will not want to help because of business supported or organized efforts are now in charge of the clean ups.

stepping off now..........

Open dialog from the greenies on a public forum. Never happen.

To ^^^^ what he said...I guess you have totaly missed the points here.

I dont think anybody is concerned with who is running the event. I know Im not.
Most are not concerned with an org, for profit or not, collecting sponsorship and perhaps even selling raffle tickets.

What I think is the concern is a commercial business, coming on a day when thousands of people are VOLUNTEERING to clean the dunes, and using those volunteers as cash cows.
The idea that a commercial bussiness will use the all volunteer clean-up as a bullring to gather customers is what has many upset.

Never has sponsorship been hard to get even when the sponsors know in advance that they cannot sell at the clean-up. there is no reason to think that allowing selling will change that. Getting volunteers has never been an issue and that wont change.

Why is it the duners are going to volunteer their time to clean the dunes and that is almost expected, but the vendors are going to be there selling their goods? We will work(well some of you will) while they are making money of our (I mean your) labor... If my family and I are there working for free, then those vendors better not be sitting in their shaded booths capitalizing on my labor.
And there is a big difference capitalizing and benefitting. We all benefit from our labor, but nobody should capitalize from it.

And just so there is no confusion, Im talking about commercial business, not the dunes related orgs. I DONT CARE WHO RUNS THE SHOW!!!!

Could you elaborate on the "experiences?" Perhaps many of us are making mistakes and are un aware of it. Maybe your experiences could save us all some wasted money and effort.

I can see it now ---Budwieser presents the wrangler jeans 10th annual ford trucks glamis clean up brought to you by warrior trailers and Suzuki. After we pick up trash in the snap on tools washes, or the pepsi flats,we can put are glad trash bags in the waste management trash bins over there at the Bills street sweeping staging area. Then we can pay a small 5.00 fee to enter the Bell helmet silent auction area to get your huffy hot dog 2 for 6.50,and tee shirt 12.95, gotta have the 10.00 program, _______TomsBrother