Hello Bluesky, long time...
So I am at work on Tuesday thinking bout what a wonderful time I had at Pismo this weekend. And I thought of you, and your "cause".
I thought about the earth, and nature, and humans as a part of this nature. We are natural habitats aren't we? Then I thought about the humans who want to shield the earth from humans. This doesn't make much sense, humans saving the planet from humans. Should we not use the very land that all other animals are allowed to use? What makes mankind so bad? I have seen mother nature change the face of an area in minutes. Boy, those humans could learn a little from her. Kinda an effeciency lesson on how to do the job right. So I thought, looking out across the ocean and all the birds flying over head. I laughed. Here is a pelican, which evolved for millions of years. Along comes a Human and declares this their "habitat", and declares it closed to humans. On the scope of earth history, right now is a mear speck of dust. Yet we will go to great lenghts to preserve its temporary resting spot. I laughed...
I watched the news, with all of Californias fires burning out of control. Wonder what "impact" this will have on the natural habitat. If a human caused the fire, there's your proof you say. But if lightning caused it, its "a natural fire" meant to be. I do not know the difference.
I wonder if we closed the forests around Mt. Saint Helens prior to its eruption? That sure helped save the local habitat.
The earth has been around a long time, and every Geological survey will tell you the same thing. The Earth is always evolving. Humans are a tiny fragment of its history. They are insignificant to Mother Nature. I beleive in management of our resources. I also beleive in the Human race.
Closing areas benefit what? Maybe things were meant to be, and Enviro's are the root problem. They, by their lobbying fanatics, are altering things the way Mother Nature never intended.
I don't know....
Maybe I will ask a Forest Fire worker their opinion??
Or perhaps we should sub-species humans. Those that are natural, and those that are Human?
That way we could let Nature be.......
Full Version: Enviro what?
LMAO! Blu will probably have some nonsense reply... as always. The funny part is, none of this BS (pun intended) will matter the next time the Yellowstone Caldera erupts. Bye bye America. Bye bye to the majority of living creatures on Earth. This is a FACT that Blu and his type choose to ignore. I wonder why all their efforts and money aren't spent on that one single problem.
When that day comes, if we survive, we'll be duning on dunes made of ash. Habitat destruction? I think just a little bit.
When that day comes, if we survive, we'll be duning on dunes made of ash. Habitat destruction? I think just a little bit.
Mother Earth will for sure? get her revenge.
As it was? and as it will be?
As it was? and as it will be?
I've heard this argument over and over from off-roaders.
"so what harm are we doing? volcanoes do worse. the earth will survive any idiocy caused by humans. we're here only for the blink of an eye in geological time etc...."
my concern is for human habitat. Our habitat includes the other creatures and plants that we share it with. they are part of our environment just as water and air are.
so just because you don't care if the human race dies out, or maybe you think you're going to be the first of a new species of human that doesn't need air or water, please don't spoil the human habitat for the rest of us.
that means don't threaten the PMV, horned lizard, Kangaroo Rat, desert tortoise with your recreation on undeveloped lands.
"so what harm are we doing? volcanoes do worse. the earth will survive any idiocy caused by humans. we're here only for the blink of an eye in geological time etc...."
my concern is for human habitat. Our habitat includes the other creatures and plants that we share it with. they are part of our environment just as water and air are.
so just because you don't care if the human race dies out, or maybe you think you're going to be the first of a new species of human that doesn't need air or water, please don't spoil the human habitat for the rest of us.
that means don't threaten the PMV, horned lizard, Kangaroo Rat, desert tortoise with your recreation on undeveloped lands.
oh please stop with the theatrics ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
you would be lovley in an off broadway show!![[Uhoh]](graemlins/uhoh.gif)
[ 09-03-2002, 09:13 PM: Message edited by: WFO WR500 ]
you would be lovley in an off broadway show!
[ 09-03-2002, 09:13 PM: Message edited by: WFO WR500 ]
Blue... news flash. If something happens that kills the human race, all your precious animals and plants are history too.
quote:are you a fortune teller?
Blue... news flash. If something happens that kills the human race, all your precious animals and plants are history too.
you're reading my post backwards. those precious plants and animals are precious because of their contribution to our lives. Once we're gone I'm not gonna care...I don't think Dano will either
quote:Then sit down and shut up.
Once we're gone I'm not gonna care
Blue, I care about the Human race, and about the creatures on the planet. My point is, what proof do you have that shows that, say, the PMV DOES belong in the sand dunes? And if so, why not transplant it to the North side? If we close areas, how long should we close the area for? Ban humans from sections of earth forever??? THat is not conductive to our race.
Perhaps Enviro's are really aliens???
Are you telling me that the dinosaurs should not have gone extinct?
That this whole circle of life thing is b.s.?
And, you want to spend your life fighting for a cause to which you do not understand? I have wanted to debate you on chat with facts, so??? Present FACTS, not overglamourized powderpuff science. Convince me that your cause is a good fight. Persuade me......
Perhaps Enviro's are really aliens???
Are you telling me that the dinosaurs should not have gone extinct?
That this whole circle of life thing is b.s.?
And, you want to spend your life fighting for a cause to which you do not understand? I have wanted to debate you on chat with facts, so??? Present FACTS, not overglamourized powderpuff science. Convince me that your cause is a good fight. Persuade me......
quote:Had, I am not a biologist, but I do read reports written by them. From what I have read we don't know enough about these rare plants to understand why they can thrive in the sand dunes or if it's possible or necessary to transplant them.
what proof do you have that shows that, say, the PMV DOES belong in the sand dunes? And if so, why not transplant it to the North side?
quote:that's a thoughtful question. I guess until the threatened species makes a significant recovery and we've learned the level of impact it can live with.
If we close areas, how long should we close the area for?
quote:there probably are sections of earth that ought to be protected from over use by people on their machines. Keeping machines out of sensitive natural areas will not hurt our race in my view.
Ban humans from sections of earth forever??? THat is not conductive to our race.
when cars were first invented there probably was not licensing system or vehicle code set up to deal with them. As they became numerous, regulations needed to be imposed on car owners and the rest of us.
ATVs bikes and other OHVs are currently out of control as they ride all over the desert/mountains/snow/lakes/rivers. They're bothering people with the riders' disregard for the rights of others and the impacts on nature.
It's only a matter of time before real laws (and enforcement of them) regulating the time of day,place, equipment etc are imposed on OHVs. I just hope the wildlife can recover.
I read somewhere that there some hobbies like gliding or ultra-lights that police themselves with their own organizaions and are permitted by the FAA to pursue their hobby. It's probably too late for that to happen with OHVs.
With OHVs it's been a matter of greed on the part of the manufacturers who flood the market with advertising and sell millions of these units with no responsiblity toward educating the user.
[ 09-04-2002, 07:22 AM: Message edited by: Bluesky ]
Once again Blu, you ignore the facts.
http://www.motorsports-network.com/honda/C...nter/center.htm
http://www.motorsports-network.com/honda/C...nter/center.htm
Big - the question about transplanting has come up many times and despite what BS seems to imply there is a clear answer from the Biologists - it won't work.
Here's an explanation right off the GOL homepage:
http://www.glamisonline.org/piersons_milkv...ansplanting.htm
I HAVE read all the studies on the plant and from it's comments it's fairly clear that either BS hasn't or is convientantly leaving out large bits of what it has read to help push it's own agenda.
The PMV is a highly specialized plant, MV in general are very prevelant and are found all over the place and in fact are considered a nuissance in many areas and irradication attempts have been made.
The PMV in particular however has evolved to live ONLY in the dunes - it's seeds are very different than other varieties of MV to help it survive in this habitat. One of the main ways it does that is with VERY hardy seeds that can take amazing amounts of abuse and lay dormant for years while they wait for that one rainy season to sprout and reproduce.
The problems are two fold - First most of the studies have taken place in unusually dry years when the plant is naturally difficult to find. And secondly the data makes it abundantly clear that the plant is only endangered because it only lives in the dunes.
You can close 100% of the dunes to even hiking and it won't make one tiny bit of difference in the PMV's survival. Mainly because the thing isn't endangered in the first place (it's only listed as threatened and the best available science now says even that is a mistake) but also because it's still not going to grow anywhere else! The thing that makes PMV PMV is that it only grows in the dunes!
Many of the older studies claim that OHV use is a prime threat but those studies did nothing to back up those claims - they only repeat the same assumption with no data to back them. Yet they all show that the highest concentrations of PMV grow in areas that recieve some of the highest use of OHV's and which were tradionally used as bombing ranges - apparantly the plant thrives when it has extra ground disturbance to help spread it's seeds.
There's also the fact that OHV users don't generally ride in the areas that PMV plants are actively growing since they're not exactly good for tires - and they favor the exact same kind of areas that riders learn to avoid because they can get stuck or hurt bad in them.
But all the past reports which have been done by highly biased parties (even the BLM's reports failed to include climatic condtions and the biologist in charge of the report actually refused to accept the installation of a weather station for tracking them when offered!) Those who wrote the older reports always tossed in OHV's as a prime threat since in the "environmental" community it's well known that OHV's are the root of all evil and must always be to blame for a plant or animals threatened status if they are allowed anywhere near them.
BS can quote OHV's as a threat all day long because it did appear in older reports - but when asked for the data to back those claims...both BS and the report authors clam up quickly. There simply isn't any, the claim is only made as a knee-jerk reaction by those who are opposed to OHV recreation and are unwilling to actually study it instead of demonize it because it dosen't appeal to them. And rather than take the American approach and agree to live and let live they are trying to push their own beliefs and passions on everyone.
Here's an explanation right off the GOL homepage:
http://www.glamisonline.org/piersons_milkv...ansplanting.htm
I HAVE read all the studies on the plant and from it's comments it's fairly clear that either BS hasn't or is convientantly leaving out large bits of what it has read to help push it's own agenda.
The PMV is a highly specialized plant, MV in general are very prevelant and are found all over the place and in fact are considered a nuissance in many areas and irradication attempts have been made.
The PMV in particular however has evolved to live ONLY in the dunes - it's seeds are very different than other varieties of MV to help it survive in this habitat. One of the main ways it does that is with VERY hardy seeds that can take amazing amounts of abuse and lay dormant for years while they wait for that one rainy season to sprout and reproduce.
The problems are two fold - First most of the studies have taken place in unusually dry years when the plant is naturally difficult to find. And secondly the data makes it abundantly clear that the plant is only endangered because it only lives in the dunes.
You can close 100% of the dunes to even hiking and it won't make one tiny bit of difference in the PMV's survival. Mainly because the thing isn't endangered in the first place (it's only listed as threatened and the best available science now says even that is a mistake) but also because it's still not going to grow anywhere else! The thing that makes PMV PMV is that it only grows in the dunes!
Many of the older studies claim that OHV use is a prime threat but those studies did nothing to back up those claims - they only repeat the same assumption with no data to back them. Yet they all show that the highest concentrations of PMV grow in areas that recieve some of the highest use of OHV's and which were tradionally used as bombing ranges - apparantly the plant thrives when it has extra ground disturbance to help spread it's seeds.
There's also the fact that OHV users don't generally ride in the areas that PMV plants are actively growing since they're not exactly good for tires - and they favor the exact same kind of areas that riders learn to avoid because they can get stuck or hurt bad in them.
But all the past reports which have been done by highly biased parties (even the BLM's reports failed to include climatic condtions and the biologist in charge of the report actually refused to accept the installation of a weather station for tracking them when offered!) Those who wrote the older reports always tossed in OHV's as a prime threat since in the "environmental" community it's well known that OHV's are the root of all evil and must always be to blame for a plant or animals threatened status if they are allowed anywhere near them.
BS can quote OHV's as a threat all day long because it did appear in older reports - but when asked for the data to back those claims...both BS and the report authors clam up quickly. There simply isn't any, the claim is only made as a knee-jerk reaction by those who are opposed to OHV recreation and are unwilling to actually study it instead of demonize it because it dosen't appeal to them. And rather than take the American approach and agree to live and let live they are trying to push their own beliefs and passions on everyone.
Yeah... what he said! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
I finally figured out my problem...
I don't like to share!
Vor
I don't like to share!
Vor
let's see there's 4 Honda training centers for the whole country. Do all riders attend these training sessions? is there any mandatory training required to ride your OHV in a natural area? I've been to many motorcycle dealerships where they never even heard of Tread Lightly, much less have literature to pass out at the time of sale. Is there a problem with riders not knowing the rules? ...or do they know them and just ignore them?
what can be said about hitesma trotting out what he's studied about the PMV. I don't care how many times you write the same story, you're just not convincing. You don't sound like a biologist, though you make claims that would need a biologist's training to back up.
Of course the ASA is not biased in their attempts to prove that the PMV is not threatened (lol)
what can be said about hitesma trotting out what he's studied about the PMV. I don't care how many times you write the same story, you're just not convincing. You don't sound like a biologist, though you make claims that would need a biologist's training to back up.
Of course the ASA is not biased in their attempts to prove that the PMV is not threatened (lol)
quote:is there a fact there somewhere?
There's also the fact that OHV users don't generally ride in the areas that PMV plants are
actively growing since they're not exactly good for tires - and they favor the exact same kind of
areas that riders learn to avoid because they can get stuck or hurt bad in them.
God I get friggin tired of listening to the BS from BS! Wake up and smell the coffee space boy! PMV is not endangered! It will soon be de-listed and large areas of Glamis WILL be reopened! ![[Angry Fire]](graemlins/angryfire.gif)
You bunny-loving tree-huggers have not listed ANY proof that it is in any way endangered! The propaganda is getting old! Admit it, you just dont like OHV'ers! Guess what bro, we dont like you either!
![[Disturbed]](graemlins/disturbed.gif)
LIVE FREE OR DIE!
You bunny-loving tree-huggers have not listed ANY proof that it is in any way endangered! The propaganda is getting old! Admit it, you just dont like OHV'ers! Guess what bro, we dont like you either!
quote:Did you read the report that the ASA comissioned? Did you see the numbers of PMV that were counted?and that was only in the "open" area! Our biological team was not allowed into the "closed" area! Guess what they found Blu-boy? Thousands upon thousands of PMV. And this was during a severe drought! Anyone dense enough to think that the amount of rainfall has no effect on the survival of the species is a fool!
Had, I am not a biologist, but I do read reports written by them. From what I have read we don't know enough about these rare plants to understand why they can thrive in the sand dunes or if it's possible or necessary to transplant them.
LIVE FREE OR DIE!
Posted by Bluesky
hitesma is not a biologist but he deos read reports written by them. From what he has read we do know enough about these rare plants to understand why they can thrive in the sand dunes or if it's possible or neccessary to transplant them.
Yes, there is fact there but since you are not a duner and have made no attempts to understand us there is no way that you could understand them or the thought process behind them.
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
that there are less accidents in the dunes where traffic is not regulated and operators are not as trained as the average california licensed driver.
Ignoring the points made by hitesma simply because hitesma beat him at his own game.
quote:Blu,
Had, I am not a biologist, but I do read reports written by them. From what I have read we don't know enough about these rare plants to understand why they can thrive in the sand dunes or if it's possible or necessary to transplant them.
hitesma is not a biologist but he deos read reports written by them. From what he has read we do know enough about these rare plants to understand why they can thrive in the sand dunes or if it's possible or neccessary to transplant them.
quote:Blu,
There's also the fact that OHV users don't generally ride in the areas that PMV plants are
actively growing since they're not exactly good for tires - and they favor the exact same kind of
areas that riders learn to avoid because they can get stuck or hurt bad in them.
Yes, there is fact there but since you are not a duner and have made no attempts to understand us there is no way that you could understand them or the thought process behind them.
quote:No, not all OHV user's attend them, but I'd say we do pretty well. Now I have not read the reports and I don't know the numbers but I would be willing to bet that if you compared the number of OHV's per square mile of dunes, and the number vehicles per square mile of southern california roadways. The dunes would be as crowded if not more crowded then our roadways. I would also HYPOTHESIZE <---scientific term
let's see there's 4 Honda training centers for the whole country. Do all riders attend these training sessions?
that there are less accidents in the dunes where traffic is not regulated and operators are not as trained as the average california licensed driver.quote:This is just another example of Blu displaying is ignorance and his misplaced hatred of duners.
what can be said about hitesma trotting out what he's studied about the PMV. I don't care how many times you write the same story, you're just not convincing. You don't sound like a biologist, though you make claims that would need a biologist's training to back up.
Ignoring the points made by hitesma simply because hitesma beat him at his own game.
It's all too bizarre. Of all the public lands where off-roading is occurring in the United States, I can't think of anyplace where less damage is done to the environment than the ISDRA. Blu is barking up the only tree she can find, even if it is clearly the wrong one.
what can be said about BS trotting out what he's studied about the PMV. I don't care how many times you write the same story, you're just not convincing. You don't sound like a biologist, though you make claims that would need a biologist's training to back up.
Yep - passes the BS test all right. Makes just as much sense (none) from either side if you just swap the names.
BS - you keep saying the ASA is biased in their report...but it's not the ASA's report! They merely commissioned a respected biologist to do a study - the biologist has been on the record in print and television saying he felt the ASA was throwing their money away hiring him because he agreed with the CBD - until he had hard data in front of him! And now his report has been through peer review and is in the process of being published so you can stop whining about that as well.
BTW - you've never answered why it's baised if the ASA commissions a report from an independant firm. But it's supposedly not biased when the CBD prepares their own studies which result in ESA listings because they are the only study done on a species. The CBD is obviously biased and attempting to push an agenda and their leader has open stated that "it's not about science". So why is that OK but it's not OK for the ASA to finance a third party study. If the ASA was out there doing the study then...yeah, I may agree with you that it's biased. But they weren't they just provided transportation allowing the bioligists the access they needed to actually study the plant in the dunes instead of in narrow strips near easily accessed areas like all the older studies!
Yep - passes the BS test all right. Makes just as much sense (none) from either side if you just swap the names.
BS - you keep saying the ASA is biased in their report...but it's not the ASA's report! They merely commissioned a respected biologist to do a study - the biologist has been on the record in print and television saying he felt the ASA was throwing their money away hiring him because he agreed with the CBD - until he had hard data in front of him! And now his report has been through peer review and is in the process of being published so you can stop whining about that as well.
BTW - you've never answered why it's baised if the ASA commissions a report from an independant firm. But it's supposedly not biased when the CBD prepares their own studies which result in ESA listings because they are the only study done on a species. The CBD is obviously biased and attempting to push an agenda and their leader has open stated that "it's not about science". So why is that OK but it's not OK for the ASA to finance a third party study. If the ASA was out there doing the study then...yeah, I may agree with you that it's biased. But they weren't they just provided transportation allowing the bioligists the access they needed to actually study the plant in the dunes instead of in narrow strips near easily accessed areas like all the older studies!
I went through the Honda training course in Colton Ca. It was a very good course and as an incentive, I was given a $25 bond for finishing the course. Yeah, $25 won't get me much but it was something.
quote:HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!!
Originally posted by Fireballsocal:
I went through the Honda training course in Colton Ca. It was a very good course and as an incentive, I was given a $25 bond for finishing the course. Yeah, $25 won't get me much but it was something.
Ben went through a HONDA training course!!! HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!
quote:well now we know what you think. have you been to every off-roading spot in the US?
Of all the public lands where off-roading is occurring in the United States, I can't think of anyplace where less damage is done to the environment than the ISDRA.
how about Gorman?
quote:is this the "traditional use" you're speaking of? do you suspect there are still impacts left over from this? (aside from buried live ordnance)
The Central portion of the Imperial Sand Dunes Recreation Area (also known as the Algodones Dunes) was used by the Department of Defense as a bombing range from 1951 until 1964.
quote:what do you mean by peer review? I thought this would be done after it was published?
his report has been through peer review
quote:well the ASA represents buggy manufacturers and all extractive industries through its connections with the BRC--they stand to make or lose money based on the outcome of the study--is there are motive for bias?
you've never answered why it's baised if the ASA commissions a report from an independant firm. But it's supposedly not biased when the CBD prepares their own studies...
the CBD is interested in protecting species. they choose their battles. is it in their interest to pick a bullsh!t battle?
biologists have been publishing studies about OHV damage to the dunes since the early 1970s at least and the landmark work by Webb and Wilshire in 1983 left no doubt as to the negative effects of OHVs on the Imperial Sand Dunes.
political pre$$ure is all that is maintaining the open areas and you know it.
quote:please spell out their agenda for me
The CBD is obviously biased and attempting to push an agenda
[ 09-04-2002, 07:51 PM: Message edited by: Bluesky ]
BS quote:
With OHVs it's been a matter of greed on the part of the manufacturers who flood the market with advertising and sell millions of these units with no responsiblity toward educating the user.
KG quote:
Once again Blu, you ignore the facts.
http://www.motorsports-network.com/honda/C...nter/center.htm
BS quote:
let's see there's 4 Honda training centers for the whole country.
So IM a little confused here BS. Didn’t you say in your post that the manufactures have no responsibility toward educating the users? Than after you find out that they do have facilities for educating people you back pedal and say there's 4 Honda training centers for the whole country. So obviously they do educate their users just not up to your specification is that what your trying to say? Do you want more education facilities say 10 more 100 more what would make you feel better? You should also know that Honda provides ATV’s for groups that help with environmental issues. I know for a fact that they donated the use of ATV’s for a group that was saving sea turtles along the coast. So don’t start with your bashing of the manufactures before you do your homework. They do way more for the environment than your little keystrokes will ever do.
With OHVs it's been a matter of greed on the part of the manufacturers who flood the market with advertising and sell millions of these units with no responsiblity toward educating the user.
KG quote:
Once again Blu, you ignore the facts.
http://www.motorsports-network.com/honda/C...nter/center.htm
BS quote:
let's see there's 4 Honda training centers for the whole country.
So IM a little confused here BS. Didn’t you say in your post that the manufactures have no responsibility toward educating the users? Than after you find out that they do have facilities for educating people you back pedal and say there's 4 Honda training centers for the whole country. So obviously they do educate their users just not up to your specification is that what your trying to say? Do you want more education facilities say 10 more 100 more what would make you feel better? You should also know that Honda provides ATV’s for groups that help with environmental issues. I know for a fact that they donated the use of ATV’s for a group that was saving sea turtles along the coast. So don’t start with your bashing of the manufactures before you do your homework. They do way more for the environment than your little keystrokes will ever do.
why don't we just say their training facilities have no effect on the overall riding preferences of their customers?
what percentage of the millions of OHV buyers go through the training?
I'm saying there ought to be some univeral training like a test you had to pass or at least a pamphlet you had to read when you bought it.
I can't imagine that dirt riders make all those illegal trails knowing full well they are illegal..I believe that they, like so many of you posting here are under the assumption you are allowed to ride anywhere you point your bike.
what percentage of the millions of OHV buyers go through the training?
I'm saying there ought to be some univeral training like a test you had to pass or at least a pamphlet you had to read when you bought it.
I can't imagine that dirt riders make all those illegal trails knowing full well they are illegal..I believe that they, like so many of you posting here are under the assumption you are allowed to ride anywhere you point your bike.
quote:BLAH BLAH BLAH. How are those new hovering shoes working for you? We don’t want you out their hiking and steep on a non-developed weed.
Originally posted by Bluesky:
why don't we just say their training facilities have no effect on the overall riding preferences of their customers?
-------------------------------------------------
Who said they don’t have an effect on the overall riding preferences of their customers? You the all-knowing keyboard activist? The way I figure it if 1 person takes the course than there is an overall effect.
-------------------------------------------------
QUOTE what percentage of the millions of OHV buyers go through the training?
-------------------------------------------------
You should be the one telling me since it has no effect on their customers as you stated than you should have some statistics for me.
-------------------------------------------------
QUOTE I'm saying there ought to be some univeral training like a test you had to pass or at least a pamphlet you had to read when you bought it.
-------------------------------------------------
Maybe you should go to a dealer and read the owner’s manual that comes with every OHV that is sold. When you get that done why don’t you post it here and we will discus what it says.
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QUOTE I can't imagine that dirt riders make all those illegal trails knowing full well they are illegal..I believe that they, like so many of you posting here are under the assumption you are allowed to ride anywhere you point your bike.
[ 09-04-2002, 08:24 PM: Message edited by: RIDERED ]
quote:You know very well that I've been to Gorman. And you also know very well that any dirt-riding area is suffering far more impact than are sand dunes. But then, there isn't a Gorman bulletin board for you to get your jollies as court jester, is there?
well now we know what you think. have you been to every off-roading spot in the US?
how about Gorman?
As for damage in the dunes, I believe that there are no riding areas damaged less than the ISDRA, because it's essentially impossible. The only "damage" to the ISDRA (after how many years of OHV use? 30? 40? 50?)is the lower frequency of the little bushes than in the closed area. And they're not endangered. And if OHV use stopped, they'd be back in two seasons. Only a fool would take away so much joy from so many thousands of people to save a bunch of pucker bushes for nonexistent hikers.
Blew, you complete every village you visit.
only a fool would ignore 30 years of evidence that your hobby is impacting the health of the world you live in.
quote:And only a moron (or someone with a serious ax to grind) would single out OHV use in a world full of human activities that far exceed it in environmental impact.
only a fool would ignore 30 years of evidence that your hobby is impacting the health of the world you live in.
Blu, the ASA will not make or loose any money from the outcome of the study. The ASA was formed to fight a cause. What the ASA hopes to gain from the study is facts to help fight our cause. But perhaps you are confused on the terms "independent" and "3rd party". You see because the ASA hired and "Independent" or "3rd party" agency to conduct this study it means that they have no influence on the outcome.
From The New Websters Dictionary
independent, a. free from influence or bias of others; not relying on others. -ence, n.
GET IT !
So I will pose this question to you again.
Explain to me how the ASA's report is bias?
Why deosn't the CBD commission a Independent study instead of preparing thier own?
From The New Websters Dictionary
independent, a. free from influence or bias of others; not relying on others. -ence, n.
GET IT !
So I will pose this question to you again.
Explain to me how the ASA's report is bias?
Why deosn't the CBD commission a Independent study instead of preparing thier own?
quote:the ASA is the org made to represent the businesses that will make or lose money.
the ASA will not make or loose any money from the outcome of the study
I asked Dr. Michael Connor about Olsen Assoc. He said they were guns for hire and held no respect in the scientific community.
quote:EEEEEEENNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!1
the ASA is the org made to represent the businesses that will make or lose money.
WRONG ANSWER!
The ASA is an organization formed to protect the rights of people like myself who love the Dunes and Do not want to see them closed. In case you haven't noticed there are a couple hundred thousand of us and a handful of bussiness owners. Yes I am a member of the ASA though I can't afford to donate much money to help, I do what I can.
look around you TJ and see who the active members are in the ASA
Posted by Bluesky
Why deosn't the CBD commission a Independent study instead of preparing thier own?
May I recommend the Olsen Assoc.
quote:Also posted by Bluesky
I asked Dr. Michael Connor about Olsen Assoc. He said they were guns for hire and held no respect in the scientific community.
quote:You still haven't answered my second question.
is there a fact there somewhere?
Why deosn't the CBD commission a Independent study instead of preparing thier own?
May I recommend the Olsen Assoc.
quote:What the heck deos that mean or have to do with what we are talking about?
look around you TJ and see who the active members are in the ASA
Honestly that makes absolutely no sense.
AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!
Everybody quoting everyone else.
Let's not let this Ben Honda training thing slip so easy.....Har-Har....
Blue, do you make your own opinions? Or, do you read things and beleive them to be true?
OHV usage should be governed by the Government. That part we see clear on. Heck, there are so many roads to accommodate vehicles, I would love for Big Brother to open up more riding areas.
Can you explain to me what large scale enviro impact OHV has on the environment? In comparison to Industrial water run off, transportation pollution, and other forms?
Now, the PMV is but 1 small itty bitty thread that you hold ssssoooo sacred. Why?
Shame on you....
You see, If I was in your shoes, I would be more concerned with the bigger polluters.
Since you know so much, and are so concerned about the Enviro, please tell me the relationship of the American Canal, Salton Sea, and Mexico?
Please, educate me on the "cause and effect" syndrome. Draw me up a fishbone diagram explaining all concerns about this H_U_G_E POLLUTION PROBLEM, and any possible solutions to it. What is the problem, what is our Government doing about it? What can you do about it?
Or, would you like this "evil OHV" PMV Killer to educate you?
You see, I understand you. You mean well.
You just don't have a clue as to what you are talking about. I can help you find a cause worthy of fighting, which has bigger returns on your investment. Has more direct FACTUAL impact on preserving the eco-systems of the micro-worlds around us.
Here we are debating a silly looking weed which in fact is not in jeopardy. Hello people... you cannot swim in the water because it is so grossly polluted that it threaten HUMAN life. Here we are, debating a weed.
HAR-HAR-HAr.......
Everybody quoting everyone else.
Let's not let this Ben Honda training thing slip so easy.....Har-Har....
Blue, do you make your own opinions? Or, do you read things and beleive them to be true?
OHV usage should be governed by the Government. That part we see clear on. Heck, there are so many roads to accommodate vehicles, I would love for Big Brother to open up more riding areas.
Can you explain to me what large scale enviro impact OHV has on the environment? In comparison to Industrial water run off, transportation pollution, and other forms?
Now, the PMV is but 1 small itty bitty thread that you hold ssssoooo sacred. Why?
Shame on you....
You see, If I was in your shoes, I would be more concerned with the bigger polluters.
Since you know so much, and are so concerned about the Enviro, please tell me the relationship of the American Canal, Salton Sea, and Mexico?
Please, educate me on the "cause and effect" syndrome. Draw me up a fishbone diagram explaining all concerns about this H_U_G_E POLLUTION PROBLEM, and any possible solutions to it. What is the problem, what is our Government doing about it? What can you do about it?
Or, would you like this "evil OHV" PMV Killer to educate you?
You see, I understand you. You mean well.
You just don't have a clue as to what you are talking about. I can help you find a cause worthy of fighting, which has bigger returns on your investment. Has more direct FACTUAL impact on preserving the eco-systems of the micro-worlds around us.
Here we are debating a silly looking weed which in fact is not in jeopardy. Hello people... you cannot swim in the water because it is so grossly polluted that it threaten HUMAN life. Here we are, debating a weed.
HAR-HAR-HAr.......
Re: Bluesky
quote:Doesn't that go without saying?
What the heck deos that mean or have to do with what we are talking about?
Honestly that makes absolutely no sense.
quote:From first hand knowledge, most of the active members of the ASA are regular duners who's livelyhood is not dependant on OHV recreation. The only thing you show with this statement is how little you know and what a petty, angry little man you must be.
look around you TJ and see who the active members are in the ASA
quote:Who?
I asked Dr. Michael Connor about Olsen Assoc. He said they were guns for hire and held no respect in the scientific community.
Wanna know who Dr. Michael Connor is?:
http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/p...tirwincoal.html
Figures a-wipe would consider some clown from this propaganda mill a source to consult.
[ 09-07-2002, 06:08 PM: Message edited by: jkp ]
http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/p...tirwincoal.html
Figures a-wipe would consider some clown from this propaganda mill a source to consult.
[ 09-07-2002, 06:08 PM: Message edited by: jkp ]
quote:Out of all of your previous nonsense posts I am shocked and find this most disturbing that you have taken the responsibility of changing Micheal Connor's slanderous comments into libel by now putting them into print. I have cut and pasted your statement here and will be forwarding it via email to Olsen and Associates and their attorney of record.
Originally posted by Bluesky:
quote:the ASA is the org made to represent the businesses that will make or lose money.
the ASA will not make or loose any money from the outcome of the study
I asked Dr. Michael Connor about Olsen Assoc. He said they were guns for hire and held no respect in the scientific community.
BTW, your identity is not a secret and hasn't been for sometime so don't think you are safe to spread Mr. Conner's slander and not be held accountable.
quote:Had, I believe what I see with own own two eyes. I weigh the literature and determine whether it supports what I've seen or not.
Blue, do you make your own opinions? Or, do you read things and beleive them to be true?
quote:it's threatening the desert tortoise, a keystone species upon which many other life forms depend. There are other large scale effects such as leaving the land barren which adds to dust storms and allows rain water to run off rather than soak into the ground.
Can you explain to me what large scale enviro impact OHV has on the environment?
quote:these are bad, I agree and I do support organzations that fight this stuff. The only thing I try to do is put things in perspective. the threats you name are tied to food, shelter and clothing needs as we are clumped together in urban environments. I feel that motorized rec in sensitive areas is something that is out of control and is taking more than its fair share of our limited resources.
In comparison to Industrial water run off, transportation pollution, and other forms?
but hey, I've written letters and raised hell about Ward Valley, Cadiz Water, Yucca mtn to name a few. How about the damn USAF jets that make illegal practice runs up the beautiful quiet valleys of the Sierra? The USAF confirmed these runs are illegal and say "get me a wing number!" One of these days I'll be sitting in the right spot with my camera and I'll get that number and then maybe we an get some peace and quiet up in Lone Pine/Bishop area.
[ 09-08-2002, 09:35 AM: Message edited by: Bluesky ]
Right. And a few days later, maybe we'll get some peace and quiet here and on DesertUSA.
quote:Again with the lies! Blu after attending several meetings regarding the closure of the desert and the impact that OHV's have on the desert tortoise I learned a few very interesting facts!
it's threatening the desert tortoise, a keystone species upon which many other life forms depend. There are other large scale effects such as leaving the land barren which adds to dust storms and allows rain water to run off rather than soak into the ground.
THE LARGEST KILLERS OF DESERT TORTOISE
1. Predators, (i.e. "Crows")
2. Upper Respiratory Disease.
3. Lack of water (i.e. Drought)
Notice the lack of OHV's on that list? If we are not the cause, How can we be the cure? It's also stange that I have never heard you mention any of these causes Blu. Why might that be? Maybe because it doent fit into your EVIL OHV theory? Just wondering?
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