gee Bluesky's not the only one who notices! these letters were written to the Times regarding a news story about BLM's NECO plan
here's the link to the original story
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/f...Dtodays%2Dtimes
September 7, 2002
Activists Challenge U.S. Plan for Desert
Habitat: Groups say Bush administration proposal would damage Sonoran ecosystem.
By SCOTT GOLD, Times Staff Writer
here's the letters written by readers (sounds like some Green aholes)
September 14, 2002
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/letter...mment%2Dletters
LETTERS TO THE EDITOR
U.S. Plan Runs Over Species
Re "Activists Challenge U.S. Plan for Desert," Sept. 7: When, oh when, are our national treasures going to be left in peace for future generations and the native species that have lived in them for eons?
As for opening up more of the fragile, beautiful desert to off-road vehicles, where is the sense? Paul Turcke, a Boise, Idaho, attorney "who has become a leading voice for off-road vehicle enthusiasts," says that allowing gas-powered machines with huge tires designed to grip and pulverize earth would do no damage to desert washes and that "good science" supports that. Where did this good science come from? And, more important, who paid for this science?
I have some property in Joshua Tree, and there is a wash near my house. I have seen firsthand the destruction of this wash by the assault of three or four kids on all-terrain vehicles. These industry shills have probably never even set foot in the desert. I invite off-road industry representatives to contact me, and I'll gladly show them what their good science results in. This madness has to stop.
Blake Simpson
Los Angeles
*
The federal agency folks don't understand their job. They say their goal is to find the middle ground between users of the desert--and imply that environmentalists are just another user group and that plants and animals have no say. Wrong!
Since 1980 it has been their job to designate vehicle routes in the desert. Since 1990 it has been their job to incorporate the recovery of the tortoise into their management plans. The current plan does neither. They are not the "Bureau of Land Use Umpires," they are the Bureau of Land Management. Seemingly, once again, a judge will have to tell them what that means.
Elden Hughes
Chair, Sierra Club
Desert Committee
Whittier
*
Special-interest groups consistently ignore the fragile nature of desert ecosystems. It is typical of these organizations--and the Bush administration, for that matter--to ignore the research and recommendations of ecologists, biologists, archeologists and other scientists with hundreds of years of combined experience in desert ecology. Turcke claims that it is possible to allow vehicular use in desert washes without harming the environment. Turcke's "good science" is evidently not that which is subject to peer review. Good science might be defined as "that with which we agree."
Michael D. Mauer
Los Angeles
Full Version: some green opinions
Well then Blu, Why dont you and the rest of these bleeding heart eco-nazis pay for a study(like we did, i.e. the ASA) and PROVE your point! Anyone with a pen and paper or a computer can write a letter to a Liberal newspaper and get a letter published! Like I've said before Prove it! The same old lines are getting tired! ![[Angry Fire]](graemlins/angryfire.gif)
LIVE FREE OR DIE!
[ 09-15-2002, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: dezfan1 ]
LIVE FREE OR DIE!
[ 09-15-2002, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: dezfan1 ]
I'm intrigued by the Preservationists(formerly Environmentalists)choice of terminology.
1. After we leave a place in peace for future generations, what do they get to do with that place? Ditto ad nauseum? My guess is "put up a parking lot". Can we get a contract?
2. Define eons. Dunes and deserts are transitory environments. So the inhabitants are not really native, but actually squatters, passengers or migrants. Like Pheasants. Maybe we should do these inhabitants a huge favor: round them all up and get them back home.
3. Can someone please name me a "non-fragile" environment? Seems like the words are welded together. It's overused and now meaningless.
4. Deserts are like astronomical red dwarfs stars. From being something teeming with productivity and energy (like our Sol), a forest or a sea, to a stage of decline or passivity. Maybe deserts are fragile, like in "on life support?" Withering, dying places. if you want to save a desert, how about watering it?
1. After we leave a place in peace for future generations, what do they get to do with that place? Ditto ad nauseum? My guess is "put up a parking lot". Can we get a contract?
2. Define eons. Dunes and deserts are transitory environments. So the inhabitants are not really native, but actually squatters, passengers or migrants. Like Pheasants. Maybe we should do these inhabitants a huge favor: round them all up and get them back home.
3. Can someone please name me a "non-fragile" environment? Seems like the words are welded together. It's overused and now meaningless.
4. Deserts are like astronomical red dwarfs stars. From being something teeming with productivity and energy (like our Sol), a forest or a sea, to a stage of decline or passivity. Maybe deserts are fragile, like in "on life support?" Withering, dying places. if you want to save a desert, how about watering it?
quote:the neat thing about desert is the natural wildlife can survive there with no help. But no hindrance either.
Maybe deserts are fragile, like in "on life support?" Withering, dying places. if you want to save a desert, how about watering it?
I'm liking Omnivore already. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Let's continue with the logical unraveling of the letters to the L.A. Times.
About washes. Why not ride through them? They should get a "wash" on a somewhat regular (certainly more frequently than an eon) basis. Wash inhabitants probably get a frequent population reversal by the water flow and a new cycle of life begins. (Also those pesky tracks are gone).
Desert "Users". I don't remember the preservationists (rather than "Environmentalists", to be logical)ever admitting to being "users' of the deserts. They prefer the labels of guardians, advocates, and (dare I say it?) SAVIORS of the desert. But not rude users (how common!!).
Sure plants and animals have a say and its probably something like "what's the fuss? Beats the heck out of being plowed under for some housing subdivision". I would think Bluesky would appreciate the favorable comparison of the current dunes wildlife circumstances to that of the underside of a mall parking lot.
BLM. The key word here is management. The brochure says "Many Uses". Not "please leave now and never, ever come back". Such an attitude is the intent of the many lawsuits that desire to circumvent good resource management.
As to the huge pile of experts who are "being ignored". Thier work has its value (if it is legitimate and not the product of the occasional manipulation for the sake of a predetermined result), but reasonable management always weighs data against other identified and legitimate needs and strikes a balance. That other need is the mental and physical well being of another species, namely us. What should we do, lock the doors and hide under our beds until "that smell" makes the neighbors call the cops?
I heard an interesting quote in, of all places, the movie XXX. Vin Diesel's character says "before you ask me to save the world, make sure I like it the way it is". Food for thought.
About washes. Why not ride through them? They should get a "wash" on a somewhat regular (certainly more frequently than an eon) basis. Wash inhabitants probably get a frequent population reversal by the water flow and a new cycle of life begins. (Also those pesky tracks are gone).
Desert "Users". I don't remember the preservationists (rather than "Environmentalists", to be logical)ever admitting to being "users' of the deserts. They prefer the labels of guardians, advocates, and (dare I say it?) SAVIORS of the desert. But not rude users (how common!!).
Sure plants and animals have a say and its probably something like "what's the fuss? Beats the heck out of being plowed under for some housing subdivision". I would think Bluesky would appreciate the favorable comparison of the current dunes wildlife circumstances to that of the underside of a mall parking lot.
BLM. The key word here is management. The brochure says "Many Uses". Not "please leave now and never, ever come back". Such an attitude is the intent of the many lawsuits that desire to circumvent good resource management.
As to the huge pile of experts who are "being ignored". Thier work has its value (if it is legitimate and not the product of the occasional manipulation for the sake of a predetermined result), but reasonable management always weighs data against other identified and legitimate needs and strikes a balance. That other need is the mental and physical well being of another species, namely us. What should we do, lock the doors and hide under our beds until "that smell" makes the neighbors call the cops?
I heard an interesting quote in, of all places, the movie XXX. Vin Diesel's character says "before you ask me to save the world, make sure I like it the way it is". Food for thought.
I'm liking Omnivore even more now!
Welcome to the board Omnivore. Thanks for stepping in with your opinions.
Welcome to the board Omnivore. Thanks for stepping in with your opinions.
quote:water rushes through washes during the rains. more plants grow there. Tortoises and other desert animals eat those plants. OHVs run over those plants and over the animals and scare them with their noise (96-105 db)
About washes. Why not ride through them?
quote:OHV use prepares land for development. just ask hitesma.
I would think Bluesky would appreciate the favorable comparison of the current dunes wildlife circumstances to that of the underside of a mall parking lot.
quote:we don't need OHV rec in order to survive.
That other need is the mental and physical well being of another species, namely us.
Fireballsocal:
Thanks for the welcome! I've been guesting (lurking) on this board for a few months and got an itch to wade in on the Environmental Board. I like the look of GD.com, the whole Glamis experience, including the flora and fauna. The site speaks of accomodation and respect.
In my opinion (oh no, here he goes again!) The true nature-loving groups are the conservation crowd. Ducks Unlimited, Quail unlimited, Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation among many others. The advocacy of sustained multi-use is the only answer. Rational People with a rational working plan for diverse groups to experience all our mothers, be she Mother Nature or Mother Glamis.
Thanks again for the welcome!
P.S. has anyone thought to have the word "GLAMIS" added to the spellcheck dictionary? Probably save board participants a few hours each day!
Thanks for the welcome! I've been guesting (lurking) on this board for a few months and got an itch to wade in on the Environmental Board. I like the look of GD.com, the whole Glamis experience, including the flora and fauna. The site speaks of accomodation and respect.
In my opinion (oh no, here he goes again!) The true nature-loving groups are the conservation crowd. Ducks Unlimited, Quail unlimited, Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation among many others. The advocacy of sustained multi-use is the only answer. Rational People with a rational working plan for diverse groups to experience all our mothers, be she Mother Nature or Mother Glamis.
Thanks again for the welcome!
P.S. has anyone thought to have the word "GLAMIS" added to the spellcheck dictionary? Probably save board participants a few hours each day!
In response to Bluesky:
The washes I'm familiar with get washed out, banks eroded, literally drowned in new silt. buried. New growth comes by birds, animals and airborne seed. Not more plants, New Plants, big Difference.
As to what "paves the way" for development. So backpacking and mountain biking, as forms of recreational use, paves the way for development? Recreational use does the exact opposite: educates a dynamic segment of the voting population to protect a sustainable balance between nature and use. In your way of thinking, any knowledge of a natural place dooms it to eventual development. My way says that ignorance and passivity leaves open the door to encroachment. Hiding land to save it? Hey!, maybe now I know the real intent of all that land The Nature Conservancy is buying up and locking away. Please humm "put in a parking lot".
Survival! I refuse to crawl about naked, cold, ill, filthy and eating the scraps of my masters; otherwise known as your definition of survival. You let me come down from the trees, stand upright, hunt, make tools, eat meat and expand my brain. I'm not going back. I have this screaming locomotive with a full head of steam between my ears. It wants to experience and to grow. Survival is for cows. Ask the redtailed hawk, the fox, and the coyote. Once they get a day full of survival, they have fun too! Hey maybe today's tree swingers are actually those that chose survival over living? Maybe they are the first perservationists? Imagine two protohumans:
1. standing in the grass, "Hey, try using this stick to hit the fruit!"
2. staying in the tree, "No way, that's makes it too easy! I'd rather just starve. Besides I've got to go send another check to the Sierra Club"
I know who I'm related too.
The washes I'm familiar with get washed out, banks eroded, literally drowned in new silt. buried. New growth comes by birds, animals and airborne seed. Not more plants, New Plants, big Difference.
As to what "paves the way" for development. So backpacking and mountain biking, as forms of recreational use, paves the way for development? Recreational use does the exact opposite: educates a dynamic segment of the voting population to protect a sustainable balance between nature and use. In your way of thinking, any knowledge of a natural place dooms it to eventual development. My way says that ignorance and passivity leaves open the door to encroachment. Hiding land to save it? Hey!, maybe now I know the real intent of all that land The Nature Conservancy is buying up and locking away. Please humm "put in a parking lot".
Survival! I refuse to crawl about naked, cold, ill, filthy and eating the scraps of my masters; otherwise known as your definition of survival. You let me come down from the trees, stand upright, hunt, make tools, eat meat and expand my brain. I'm not going back. I have this screaming locomotive with a full head of steam between my ears. It wants to experience and to grow. Survival is for cows. Ask the redtailed hawk, the fox, and the coyote. Once they get a day full of survival, they have fun too! Hey maybe today's tree swingers are actually those that chose survival over living? Maybe they are the first perservationists? Imagine two protohumans:
1. standing in the grass, "Hey, try using this stick to hit the fruit!"
2. staying in the tree, "No way, that's makes it too easy! I'd rather just starve. Besides I've got to go send another check to the Sierra Club"
I know who I'm related too.
the whole premis of that article is a lie. It does not open up more riding areas. The whole plan closes off more riding areas. You and all your ilk are liars on a scale that Joseph Goebels would be proud of.
WOW! Omnivore rocks! He makes his point very rationally and intelligently! BS always gets my blood boiling! I hope to hear more from you on these matters! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
LIVE FREE OR DIE!
LIVE FREE OR DIE!
quote:I'm not familiar with all washes either, but in the desert, to which you are an obvious newcomer, loads of silt are not deposited except-every 100 years or so. washes collect the rain run off and are a place where both perennial and annual plants live, bear leaves, blossoms and are eaten by the native wildlife. OHV travel in washes severely affects this process.
The washes I'm familiar with
quote:I didn't say that. Have you seen an OHV pit? these are areas made barren by repeated use by vehicles. Since there's no way they can be considered as valuable habitat or valuable scenery, they are then vulnerable to be developed. The actual patterns of development bear out my assertion.
So backpacking and mountain biking, as forms of recreational use, paves the way for development?
quote:I've got no argument here--but with OHV rec impacting more and more open land every day of the week, where's the sustainability?
educates a dynamic segment of the voting population to protect a sustainable balance between nature and use
quote:I'm not against knowledge--go hiking, horseback riding--know the places--just keep the OHVs and their damaging effects out of natural lands.
In your way of thinking, any knowledge of a natural place dooms it to eventual development
quote:I'm not asking you to crawl about. I'm asking you to leave your OHV in urban parks and out of the natural lands that belong to everyone. You stated in your earlier post:
Survival! I refuse to crawl about naked, cold, ill, filthy and eating the scraps of my masters; otherwise known as your definition of survival
" reasonable management always weighs data against other identified and legitimate needs and strikes a balance. That other need is the mental and physical well being of another species, namely us"
the implication is we need OHV rec for survival which we don't.
quote:Get help, Blu. This is your wildest, most absurd assertion. Buy stock in a pharmaceuticals company and cross your fingers.
I didn't say that. Have you seen an OHV pit? these are areas made barren by repeated use by vehicles. Since there's no way they can be considered as valuable habitat or valuable scenery, they are then vulnerable to be developed. The actual patterns of development bear out my assertion.
Blu sucks. Have you hiked/camped for a week in the wildlife preserve set aside for people like you north of Highway 78? doubt it. I said for a week, not a night. And there are no other greenies that have either. And all the ***s that are *****ing about the deserts are the same jerks that complain about having to drive through them to get to Vegas or Havasu. Damn hippocrates.
There are areas deemed appropriate for your much sought after nature and scenery and There are no OHV's???
They are our National Park system
Go visit Yosemite or Joshua Tree.. Those places were created just for your kind.
They are our National Park system
Go visit Yosemite or Joshua Tree.. Those places were created just for your kind.
Take a look at some of your Insane Enviromental Policies, and the devastating effects your so called "Caring" attitude towards the enviroment has caused!~ The Facts!
Some conservators You and your kind have been!![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
[ 09-16-2002, 08:10 PM: Message edited by: WFO WR500 ]
Some conservators You and your kind have been!
[ 09-16-2002, 08:10 PM: Message edited by: WFO WR500 ]
Let me scratch my head and think here Bluesky. Humn??? So your saying that the OHv's are destroying the ground. OK. And that we dont really need them as a form of recreation. OK.
And that the planties, panties, and animolies are being destroyed by the almighty tires of the OHv's. OK. I agree. I am gonna sell my bikes cause you have a point. They ain't really necessary. But lets ban together, you and me. We are a team.
Just think, pleasure boats aren't really necessary. Cruise ships ain't necessary. Bicycles, backpacking, skydiving, scuba diving, cars, clothes. Chitty man, come to think of it, humans ain't necessary. Lets you and me set our team. Lets kill all dim ******* humans. Now, I am just a simple person, existing till I die.
Pro-creating. I hope you see the necessity in it.Hell, where I come from, its downright fun. Are you so caught up in your silliness that you dont see the picture? What right do you have to tell others what is necessary?
What the world really needs is to get people such as yourselves some education. You dont have the right to impose your will on others. This is America. Land of the Free. Home of the Brave. I bet my bottom dollar you are one of three people-
someone who was picked on as a child, seeking revenge.
someone who had no rights till you migrated to this Country-now trying to do to others what you escaped from.
someone who beleives they were wronged, or what I call, a poor victim of society.
This is a PRO-OFF ROAD board. For being such evil people, I do beleive we are the better ones. Every Enviro I have encountered is a real jerk-off. Cocky, rude, fat headed, you name it. I am willing to put my money where my mouth is. Give me some sites to visit that are your arena. Let me post there. They will throw me off. But you, we tollerate. We respect your elementary thinking. Hell, i hope to educate you some day. I have been nothing but respectful to you, but yet you will only bark behind the closed door. When you gonna debate live in the chat room? I have asked several times. Or are you too afraid to? Can't respond fast enough? Can't quote OTHER people in a live chat? Can't think for yourself?
Regardless, i love your posts. It reminds me that the world is not "Black and white" It's grey......
And that the planties, panties, and animolies are being destroyed by the almighty tires of the OHv's. OK. I agree. I am gonna sell my bikes cause you have a point. They ain't really necessary. But lets ban together, you and me. We are a team.
Just think, pleasure boats aren't really necessary. Cruise ships ain't necessary. Bicycles, backpacking, skydiving, scuba diving, cars, clothes. Chitty man, come to think of it, humans ain't necessary. Lets you and me set our team. Lets kill all dim ******* humans. Now, I am just a simple person, existing till I die.
Pro-creating. I hope you see the necessity in it.Hell, where I come from, its downright fun. Are you so caught up in your silliness that you dont see the picture? What right do you have to tell others what is necessary?
What the world really needs is to get people such as yourselves some education. You dont have the right to impose your will on others. This is America. Land of the Free. Home of the Brave. I bet my bottom dollar you are one of three people-
someone who was picked on as a child, seeking revenge.
someone who had no rights till you migrated to this Country-now trying to do to others what you escaped from.
someone who beleives they were wronged, or what I call, a poor victim of society.
This is a PRO-OFF ROAD board. For being such evil people, I do beleive we are the better ones. Every Enviro I have encountered is a real jerk-off. Cocky, rude, fat headed, you name it. I am willing to put my money where my mouth is. Give me some sites to visit that are your arena. Let me post there. They will throw me off. But you, we tollerate. We respect your elementary thinking. Hell, i hope to educate you some day. I have been nothing but respectful to you, but yet you will only bark behind the closed door. When you gonna debate live in the chat room? I have asked several times. Or are you too afraid to? Can't respond fast enough? Can't quote OTHER people in a live chat? Can't think for yourself?
Regardless, i love your posts. It reminds me that the world is not "Black and white" It's grey......
Dear Bluesky:
Please refrain from making statements about the
"obvious" and that I haven't been there and done that. Of course I have. Remember: I came down from the trees! Washes don't collect rain like your mom's birdbath, they are torrents and tear up everything in their way. Collection is done in vernal pools, sinks, tanks, tarns and various other natural pheonomemnon. I dig vernal pools and can lay by one for hours, nose to the water. Soem of my favorite ones are now buried under Mora Mesa Boulevard.
Patterns of development come from cheap real estate, available access and nearby employment, not some altruistic attempt by investors to rid themselves of "ugly" land. They want money, not beauty. They are bankers, not poets. Besides such pits often happen on private land that is just been waiting for the right price anyway. I am interested: which is prettier: an OHV pit or a Wal-Mart?
I do not believe that OHV activity is growing. The illusion is that because it is CONFINED so mush lately, it just looks like more. Preservationists are famous for framing their shots and their data.
All land is natural, not just the pretty stuff in your wall calendar. Some day even the dirt under your precious parking lots will again see the light and feel the warmth of the sun. Locked away, it's still pretty.
What urban parks? Like that dirt track in Carlsbad? How about we restrict backpackers to just Cowles Mountains instead of the Sierras or kayaking to the Plunge instead of the kelpbeds of San Diego?
Remember Bluesky, we are here but for a short period, that events more cataclysmic that the California Emmissions Standards or recyling plastic have shaped and will continue to shape this planet. In a blink of the geological eye, it will all be wiped away, no matter the changes or protection we believe can be made forever by mere humans. That one small asteroid can ruin you're whole day. Mother Nature bats last!
Please refrain from making statements about the
"obvious" and that I haven't been there and done that. Of course I have. Remember: I came down from the trees! Washes don't collect rain like your mom's birdbath, they are torrents and tear up everything in their way. Collection is done in vernal pools, sinks, tanks, tarns and various other natural pheonomemnon. I dig vernal pools and can lay by one for hours, nose to the water. Soem of my favorite ones are now buried under Mora Mesa Boulevard.
Patterns of development come from cheap real estate, available access and nearby employment, not some altruistic attempt by investors to rid themselves of "ugly" land. They want money, not beauty. They are bankers, not poets. Besides such pits often happen on private land that is just been waiting for the right price anyway. I am interested: which is prettier: an OHV pit or a Wal-Mart?
I do not believe that OHV activity is growing. The illusion is that because it is CONFINED so mush lately, it just looks like more. Preservationists are famous for framing their shots and their data.
All land is natural, not just the pretty stuff in your wall calendar. Some day even the dirt under your precious parking lots will again see the light and feel the warmth of the sun. Locked away, it's still pretty.
What urban parks? Like that dirt track in Carlsbad? How about we restrict backpackers to just Cowles Mountains instead of the Sierras or kayaking to the Plunge instead of the kelpbeds of San Diego?
Remember Bluesky, we are here but for a short period, that events more cataclysmic that the California Emmissions Standards or recyling plastic have shaped and will continue to shape this planet. In a blink of the geological eye, it will all be wiped away, no matter the changes or protection we believe can be made forever by mere humans. That one small asteroid can ruin you're whole day. Mother Nature bats last!
quote:most rains in the desert are under 1/2" the washes aren't torrents but gentle streams--that's why they are able to nurture lots of plant growth that sustains the animals of the desert. You'll see torrents every 100 years.
Washes don't collect rain like your mom's birdbath, they are torrents and tear up everything in their way.
quote:most developments in scenic areas must prove that they're not negatively impacting the environment. If you were on the Planning Commission would you deny an application to build on an area already torn up by OHVs?
Patterns of development come from cheap real estate, available access and nearby employment, not some altruistic attempt by investors to rid themselves of "ugly" land.
quote:why don't you do some research?
I do not believe that OHV activity is growing
quote:so you're just destroying habitat that would be destroyed anyway right?
In a blink of the geological eye, it will all be wiped away, no matter the changes or protection we believe can be made forever by mere humans
quote:True, MOST rain is less than half an inch, but you are kidding yourself if you think that washes are "gentle streams". I am not a 100 years old. But, the number of times I have seen a wash run voilently are numerous! So I have no idea where you get your 100 year theory! During a thunderstorm massive amounts of rain fall in a short time and in a relatively small area causing flash floods! Hence washes run fast and deep, move tons of debris, and cause liberal amounts of damage!
most rains in the desert are under 1/2" the washes aren't torrents but gentle streams--that's why they are able to nurture lots of plant growth that sustains the animals of the desert. You'll see torrents every 100 years.
![[Grenade]](graemlins/grenade.gif)
quote:Why dont you use your own advise!
why don't you do some research?
LIVE FREE OR DIE!
quote:I agree, Had and thank you for it. You're not so stupid as to think you can't learn anything.
I have been nothing but respectful to you,
quote:well you know cars and clothes are a necessity. recreation is a necessity too, as is contact with Mother Nature. The problem is, OHV rec ruins Mother nature for the rest of us. I have seen thousands of miles of dirt bike tracks made across open desert. these riders passed one afternoon and left their tracks to be seen and maybe followed for years to come!
Just think, pleasure boats aren't really necessary. Cruise ships ain't necessary. Bicycles, backpacking, skydiving, scuba diving, cars, clothes.
quote:I'm just sharing my views
What right do you have to tell others what is necessary?
quote:sorry--I'm just a normal person. Of course I was picked on as a child, but I'm grown up now;^)
I bet my bottom dollar you are one of three people-
someone who was picked on as a child, seeking revenge.
someone who had no rights till you migrated to this Country-now trying to do to others what you escaped from.
someone who beleives they were wronged, or what I call, a poor victim of society.
I was born in California--where are you from?
I have a college education, I don't feel I have been wronged.
I do see the effects of uncontrolled and growing numbers of OHV recreationists.
quote:I don't think you're evil. but when I post pics of user-made OHV pits, I NEVER read that one of you will say that it's wrong. I spoken to the reps of CORVA, CA4WD, AFFA, AMA--none of these people will even admit there's a possibility that something needs to be done to protect lands from errant, uninformed OHVers who ride without knowing the rules.
This is a PRO-OFF ROAD board. For being such evil people, I do beleive we are the better ones. Every Enviro I have encountered is a real jerk-off. Cocky, rude, fat headed, you name it.
I have also met enviros who are boring and sound like the teacher's pet who did her homework and now gets to read it to you for the next 2 hours.
quote:i tried to log onto chat several times. but still haven't figured out how to do it--or have a computer glitch that won't allow it (?)
When you gonna debate live in the chat room? I have asked several times. Or are you too afraid to? Can't respond fast enough? Can't quote OTHER people in a live chat? Can't think for yourself?
you're right though--I'm not a good debater--I DON'T think fast--anything wrong with that?
cheers
LMAO! It's been a long day at work and I needed the laugh so I never thought I would say this but THANK YOU bluesky!
Gentle streams? Come to a wash near my house in the Arizona Desert and wait for the next good rain. I know what I see and the washes around here seem to go like mad or not at all.
Gentle streams? Come to a wash near my house in the Arizona Desert and wait for the next good rain. I know what I see and the washes around here seem to go like mad or not at all.
quote:well all washes are not the same but we're talking about the washes referred to in the NECO plan above--Imperial, riverside, San Bernardino Counties in CA where there is significantly less rainfall that in many parts of AZ--we don't got no saguaros, nopales or cholla or even any decent ocotillos or mesquite for ex because of low rainfall
Gentle streams? Come to a wash near my house in the Arizona Desert and wait for the next good rain. I know what I see and the washes around here seem to go like mad or not at all.
I'm sorry Bluesky, I guess this is your thread and you would like to stick to the topic for a change.
Bluesky:
Check out some of the washes between here and El Centro. Deathtraps in the winter. Six foot undercut walls doesn't look like "collection" to me.
Bluesky: I'm actually feeling sorry for you. Advocating development in scenic areas? The ugliest tenements I've ever seen are the big name hotels just outside of Denali Park. Never seen a pretty woodlot that a rich liberal's split-level cabin couln't ruin the scene. You must love those parking lots!
Me on a planning commission? Yep, that'll happen. From the looks of your development buddies's growth, there is no plan.
My research says that OHV use is not growing. My research also says that your parking lots are sprouting up all over.
I believe in sustained use. You believe in freezing time, that some recent past's scenary is the best there ever was, or will be, and you will keep anyone from stepping inside the fences.
Wait..maybe you don't really believe in saving anything. Maybe fake it just long enough so we forget what's out there and then: TAH DAH!! BLUESKY NATIONAL PARKing lot! (By the way, thanks for the tip on the Wal-mart stock).
Seriously: Mother Nature regularly wrecks a heck of a lot more acreage than we ever could imagine. Try sueing her. When there's a wild fire, you say it's nature's way and part of the cycle of life. How come people don't get the same consideration from you when a mis-step is made in nature.
This web site is an excellent example of a step toward education and building respect for the natural place called Glamis. People are growing aware and care is creeping into our behavior. Beating us half-to-death with your eliteism and armies of envious urban liberal couch potatoe contributors is not going to work. The power of your lawsuits and money will never conquer our need to experience life. To be out there.
I'm down from the trees and I'm not going back!!
Check out some of the washes between here and El Centro. Deathtraps in the winter. Six foot undercut walls doesn't look like "collection" to me.
Bluesky: I'm actually feeling sorry for you. Advocating development in scenic areas? The ugliest tenements I've ever seen are the big name hotels just outside of Denali Park. Never seen a pretty woodlot that a rich liberal's split-level cabin couln't ruin the scene. You must love those parking lots!
Me on a planning commission? Yep, that'll happen. From the looks of your development buddies's growth, there is no plan.
My research says that OHV use is not growing. My research also says that your parking lots are sprouting up all over.
I believe in sustained use. You believe in freezing time, that some recent past's scenary is the best there ever was, or will be, and you will keep anyone from stepping inside the fences.
Wait..maybe you don't really believe in saving anything. Maybe fake it just long enough so we forget what's out there and then: TAH DAH!! BLUESKY NATIONAL PARKing lot! (By the way, thanks for the tip on the Wal-mart stock).
Seriously: Mother Nature regularly wrecks a heck of a lot more acreage than we ever could imagine. Try sueing her. When there's a wild fire, you say it's nature's way and part of the cycle of life. How come people don't get the same consideration from you when a mis-step is made in nature.
This web site is an excellent example of a step toward education and building respect for the natural place called Glamis. People are growing aware and care is creeping into our behavior. Beating us half-to-death with your eliteism and armies of envious urban liberal couch potatoe contributors is not going to work. The power of your lawsuits and money will never conquer our need to experience life. To be out there.
I'm down from the trees and I'm not going back!!
quote:Its obvious that this is not true. What would you have to do if there were no OHVs?
Originally posted by Bluesky:
[the implication is we need OHV rec for survival which we don't.[/QB]
quote:While the amount of measurable rain in my area of the Arizona desert is small (3" per year average), to say they are not torrents is absolutely not true. It actually takes very little measurable rain for a wash to run savagely. I have seen boulders the size of volkswagens moved hundreds of feet. And while it may not occur often, maybe twice a year, it certainly is not 100 years. BTW, I have seen the 100 year floods as well.
most rains in the desert are under 1/2" the washes aren't torrents but gentle streams--that's why they are able to nurture lots of plant growth that sustains the animals of the desert. You'll see torrents every 100 years.
quote:Hey BlueSky...
Originally posted by Omnivore:
Bluesky:
Check out some of the washes between here and El Centro. Deathtraps in the winter. Six foot undercut walls doesn't look like "collection" to me.
Bluesky: I'm actually feeling sorry for you. Advocating development in scenic areas? The ugliest tenements I've ever seen are the big name hotels just outside of Denali Park. Never seen a pretty woodlot that a rich liberal's split-level cabin couln't ruin the scene. You must love those parking lots!
Me on a planning commission? Yep, that'll happen. From the looks of your development buddies's growth, there is no plan.
My research says that OHV use is not growing. My research also says that your parking lots are sprouting up all over.
I believe in sustained use. You believe in freezing time, that some recent past's scenary is the best there ever was, or will be, and you will keep anyone from stepping inside the fences.
Wait..maybe you don't really believe in saving anything. Maybe fake it just long enough so we forget what's out there and then: TAH DAH!! BLUESKY NATIONAL PARKing lot! (By the way, thanks for the tip on the Wal-mart stock).
Seriously: Mother Nature regularly wrecks a heck of a lot more acreage than we ever could imagine. Try sueing her. When there's a wild fire, you say it's nature's way and part of the cycle of life. How come people don't get the same consideration from you when a mis-step is made in nature.
This web site is an excellent example of a step toward education and building respect for the natural place called Glamis. People are growing aware and care is creeping into our behavior. Beating us half-to-death with your eliteism and armies of envious urban liberal couch potatoe contributors is not going to work. The power of your lawsuits and money will never conquer our need to experience life. To be out there.
I'm down from the trees and I'm not going back!!
holy crap Bam Bam that was the funniest thing I've seen in a while when I scrolled down past the quote I saw it and spit my coffe out all over my key board. ![[Cheese]](graemlins/cheese.gif)
Nice
Nice
is that Donald Sutherland in The Bodysnatchers?
quote:Yep
Originally posted by Bluesky:
is that Donald Sutherland in The Bodysnatchers?
then I guess it's appropriate that you use him as a "spokesimage" because as you might recall, his mind was taken over by the aliens and in this picture he was pointing out the one person who was still a human---- ME!!!
quote:Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!! That's a good one. LMFAOROTF
Originally posted by Bluesky:
then I guess it's appropriate that you use him as a "spokesimage" because as you might recall, his mind was taken over by the aliens and in this picture he was pointing out the one person who was still a human---- ME!!!
![[Roll]](graemlins/rollsmile.gif)
[ 09-17-2002, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: cr500cop ]
quote:As a life long resident of Blythe(Riverside County) I travel frequently on both Hwy 95 North through San Bernadino County and South on Hwy 78 through Imperial County to Glamis. If the NECO Plan is where you found your information regarding wash's, then it has more flaw's than I thought. Call Cal Trans in this area and ask them why a Gentle Stream requires several large pieces of earth moving equipment, numerous state employee's and hours of work to clear the debris and re-open the Hwy's. Once again Blu your statement does'nt hold water! (Pun Intended!)
well all washes are not the same but we're talking about the washes referred to in the NECO plan above--Imperial, riverside, San Bernardino Counties in CA where there is significantly less rainfall that in many parts of AZ--we don't got no saguaros, nopales or cholla or even any decent ocotillos or mesquite for ex because of low rainfall
While I'm sure you believe what you read, the simple fact of the matter is your wrong. The information you are depending on is wrong as well.
If you have never experienced a Monsoonal Storm then you have no idea of the destructive power it is capable of. Lobuck is right, I have seen in person a running wash move bolders that must have weighed tons, dislodged like children's toys. Two full-size cars where swept aside and buried under four feet of sand, and this was from a single 35 min. thunderstorm in Aug of 2001 on Hwy 95 just 10 miles West of Needles Ca. We were traped by running wash's in both directions for almost 3 hours.
![[Uhoh]](graemlins/uhoh.gif)
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Hey Blu....
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