http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0926/p01s01-ussc.html
hey BS, how do you justify this a$$inine behaviour.
Full Version: Environmentalist Terrorism
Hey JET
those crazy English!
have you heard of Guy Fawkes?
http://www.britannia.com/history/g-fawkes.html
They'll resist whatever they deem as unjust!
I have no real knowledge of these eco-terror groups and of course decry any actions that could threaten human lives, such as tree-spiking.
On the other hand, I don't find their actions to be too different from clear cutters or off-roaders.
Resource extractors and off-roaders do violence to the landscape. Their marks are indelible and they waste the public weal for their own ephemeral gains.
People can resist this wasting through participation in the public process. Some folks get weary of this and feel that they are ineffective. They may feel that they're going to fight "fire with fire" and do violence back to the perpetrators of violence.
I personally would rather see massive non-violent resistance to clear cutting and other unsupportable wasting of public resources such as off-roading.
I do not now nor have I ever supported ELF, or Earth First or any eco-terror organization.
I do support Greenpeace, however.
cheers
those crazy English!
have you heard of Guy Fawkes?
http://www.britannia.com/history/g-fawkes.html
They'll resist whatever they deem as unjust!
I have no real knowledge of these eco-terror groups and of course decry any actions that could threaten human lives, such as tree-spiking.
On the other hand, I don't find their actions to be too different from clear cutters or off-roaders.
Resource extractors and off-roaders do violence to the landscape. Their marks are indelible and they waste the public weal for their own ephemeral gains.
People can resist this wasting through participation in the public process. Some folks get weary of this and feel that they are ineffective. They may feel that they're going to fight "fire with fire" and do violence back to the perpetrators of violence.
I personally would rather see massive non-violent resistance to clear cutting and other unsupportable wasting of public resources such as off-roading.
I do not now nor have I ever supported ELF, or Earth First or any eco-terror organization.
I do support Greenpeace, however.
cheers
Only blu could write this
quote:Followed by this
I have no real knowledge of these eco-terror groups and of course decry any actions that could threaten human lives, such as tree-spiking.
quote:Bloody wanker! (As the English would say)
On the other hand, I don't find their actions to be too different from clear cutters or off-roaders.
hey blu, do you own blusky salon in aliso viejo? just curious.
The people, who support preservationist groups and the violent extremists ultimately supported by both, do not fear that they will get burned by playing with arson. They are safe in their cities. Why would the ELF burn down an urban setting, as these places are permanently ruined and well beyond hope of ever being natural again? The supporters are actually entertained and empowered by being involved in such direct action. It beats spitting on the opposing fans at ballgames. Who cares if a mansion in Colorado gets torched or a mink farm gets destroyed. "I don't live in Colorado ( I might actually have to touch dirt!) and I can't afford mink!
If the check-writing masses only knew what the end game agendas are for these groups.
For the animal rights groups: If you kill a rat in a trap in your Manhattan townhouse, You will be charged with murder. You cannot own pets. ANY. No birds, fish, even plants. They need to be free from the slavery of man!
For the preservationist groups: Confine humanity to the urban areas and then tighten the perimeter. 6 billion people imprisoned where we stand in line at the Tofu trucks, in our cotton shifts, unwashed. Then, hopefully, a plague will erupt; accidentally or otherwise.
These groups have suffered few setbacks and are treated, even today, mostly as quaint. But the world has seen such groups grow before and their ultimate destructive potential is staggering.
It's not about the animals or the outdoors, it's about POWER.
If the check-writing masses only knew what the end game agendas are for these groups.
For the animal rights groups: If you kill a rat in a trap in your Manhattan townhouse, You will be charged with murder. You cannot own pets. ANY. No birds, fish, even plants. They need to be free from the slavery of man!
For the preservationist groups: Confine humanity to the urban areas and then tighten the perimeter. 6 billion people imprisoned where we stand in line at the Tofu trucks, in our cotton shifts, unwashed. Then, hopefully, a plague will erupt; accidentally or otherwise.
These groups have suffered few setbacks and are treated, even today, mostly as quaint. But the world has seen such groups grow before and their ultimate destructive potential is staggering.
It's not about the animals or the outdoors, it's about POWER.
quote:Of course, you're looking to find an excuse to exercise the POWER of your machine to drive anywhere you aim it, even over public land that is home to threatened species.
the world has seen such groups grow before and their ultimate destructive potential is staggering.
It's not about the animals or the outdoors, it's about POWER.
quote:Only Blu could associate eco-terrorist and their willingness to commit acts of violence, terrorism, and the unbelievable ability to take HUMAN LIFE! with someone who just wants to go out and enjoy the outdoors and have every legal right to do it!!! Your friggen demented BLU! I cant believe that you made that statement! In my opinion that borders on the edge of depravity!
I have no real knowledge of these eco-terror groups and of course decry any actions that could threaten human lives, such as tree-spiking.
On the other hand, I don't find their actions to be too different from clear cutters or off-roaders.
![[Angry Fire]](graemlins/angryfire.gif)
LIVE FREE OR DIE!
What threatened species?????
quote:Ok, I'm going to take a chance.
Of course, you're looking to find an excuse to exercise the POWER of your machine to drive anywhere you aim it, even over public land that is home to threatened species.
Blue, you are a stinking, blazing, useless, ****-spewing, propagandist, droning, repetitive, completely non-thought-provoking azzwhole!
There. I feel better now. When I called Daniel Patterson that, he told me he was contacting "law enforcement" about my "veiled threats." Another wussy azzwhole.
[ 09-29-2002, 06:30 PM: Message edited by: Poiks ]
HE, HE, HE, HE, HE! A WUZZY AZZWHOLE!, FUNNY SHEITE! Let's see if he gets all butt-hurt! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
OH YEA, BLU ANSWER THE QUESTION!
LIVE FREE OR DIE!
OH YEA, BLU ANSWER THE QUESTION!
LIVE FREE OR DIE!
Quote from Omnivore:
the world has seen such groups grow before and their ultimate destructive potential is staggering.
It's not about the animals or the outdoors, it's about POWER.
Bluesky:
"Of course, you're looking to find an excuse to exercise the POWER of your machine to drive anywhere you aim it, even over public land that is home to threatened species".
______________________________________________________________
My Response:
I try not to identify the roads I drive on, my personal real estate, and where I recreate, shop, dine, and live; as anything but the environment of all living things, including those that are classified an "endangered" .
So, yes, I can drive responsibly through public land that is home to over living things. I do not actually differentiate between living things as to whether they are "endangered" by some human measure, or not. What not respect them all?
Further, most of humanity functions in such a manner. I will give you the benefit of not misinterpreting your statement. But I do sense you meant that I aim at the threaten species. I do not aim at much of anything unless it's heading for the barbeque and I exercise prudent animal population management.
The POWER you speak of hints at personal irresponsibility, negligence, and maybe childish malice on individual basis. The POWER I speak of can tear the very fabric of human society and put us into a new Dark Age. The POWER to shut down economies, disrupt food and water supplies, and broadcast disease.
Currently this POWER primarily exists in the agendas and manifestos of the Preservationist Movements. But we regularly experience the flexing of real national and global POWER in the manipulation of the politicians, in their appeasement for their own gain and safety, and the support of a significant piece of the masses, who do not understand the long view or the big picture. They easily succumb to the propaganda of the moment and that adage, "this doesn't affect me".
History has taught us to what appeasement and propaganda leads. Pity the global environment if the human society unravels. The systems we have now are very efficient and, yes, as respectful as possible to all living things. Yes, there are exceptions.
Yes, there will be no respect or even the slightest consideration if mankind is frantically obsessed with survival on a moment-to-moment basis.
The preservationist movement may be at the zenith of their movement's founding intent. They have done all they can do without major disruptions of human society. Yet, we are starting to see such disruptions. Water rights, fishing grounds disputes, and grazing and farming restrictions are just the start. How about ill-conceived forest attitudes that leads to devastating fires?
What becomes of the movement if they meet growing grass-roots resistance through the inability to reach original objectives? Do they evolve as many mature and sensible movements have done? Do they become despotic to eventually ruin all they have gained? With the growth of eco-terrorism and the preservationists' inability to control or even condemn, I fear the global community is witnessing the birth of a horrible POWER.
the world has seen such groups grow before and their ultimate destructive potential is staggering.
It's not about the animals or the outdoors, it's about POWER.
Bluesky:
"Of course, you're looking to find an excuse to exercise the POWER of your machine to drive anywhere you aim it, even over public land that is home to threatened species".
______________________________________________________________
My Response:
I try not to identify the roads I drive on, my personal real estate, and where I recreate, shop, dine, and live; as anything but the environment of all living things, including those that are classified an "endangered" .
So, yes, I can drive responsibly through public land that is home to over living things. I do not actually differentiate between living things as to whether they are "endangered" by some human measure, or not. What not respect them all?
Further, most of humanity functions in such a manner. I will give you the benefit of not misinterpreting your statement. But I do sense you meant that I aim at the threaten species. I do not aim at much of anything unless it's heading for the barbeque and I exercise prudent animal population management.
The POWER you speak of hints at personal irresponsibility, negligence, and maybe childish malice on individual basis. The POWER I speak of can tear the very fabric of human society and put us into a new Dark Age. The POWER to shut down economies, disrupt food and water supplies, and broadcast disease.
Currently this POWER primarily exists in the agendas and manifestos of the Preservationist Movements. But we regularly experience the flexing of real national and global POWER in the manipulation of the politicians, in their appeasement for their own gain and safety, and the support of a significant piece of the masses, who do not understand the long view or the big picture. They easily succumb to the propaganda of the moment and that adage, "this doesn't affect me".
History has taught us to what appeasement and propaganda leads. Pity the global environment if the human society unravels. The systems we have now are very efficient and, yes, as respectful as possible to all living things. Yes, there are exceptions.
Yes, there will be no respect or even the slightest consideration if mankind is frantically obsessed with survival on a moment-to-moment basis.
The preservationist movement may be at the zenith of their movement's founding intent. They have done all they can do without major disruptions of human society. Yet, we are starting to see such disruptions. Water rights, fishing grounds disputes, and grazing and farming restrictions are just the start. How about ill-conceived forest attitudes that leads to devastating fires?
What becomes of the movement if they meet growing grass-roots resistance through the inability to reach original objectives? Do they evolve as many mature and sensible movements have done? Do they become despotic to eventually ruin all they have gained? With the growth of eco-terrorism and the preservationists' inability to control or even condemn, I fear the global community is witnessing the birth of a horrible POWER.
WOWWW !!! That was good!
Omnivore,
I can't quite buy this conclusion:
"With the growth of eco-terrorism and the preservationists' inability to control or even condemn, I fear the global community is witnessing the birth of a horrible POWER."
It's just a little too melodramatic for me.
I think the ELFs are out of hand, and the FBI will eventually break them up much as they did the radical groups in the 60s. I place ELF in the same category as the Christian Identity groups that were getting so much attention a while back.
Here's another aticle from the CS Monitor on those groups:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0618/p02s01-ussc.html
I can't quite buy this conclusion:
"With the growth of eco-terrorism and the preservationists' inability to control or even condemn, I fear the global community is witnessing the birth of a horrible POWER."
It's just a little too melodramatic for me.
I think the ELFs are out of hand, and the FBI will eventually break them up much as they did the radical groups in the 60s. I place ELF in the same category as the Christian Identity groups that were getting so much attention a while back.
Here's another aticle from the CS Monitor on those groups:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0618/p02s01-ussc.html
Spider, it's happening already, Go to Glamis Whine & Cheese, the thread is "Eco Terrorist Traps are Attempted Murder." These eco-idiots are out in our riding areas booby-trapping them as we speak! This goes to show that they value plant and animal life more than human life. It's hard to believe that an educated person could think this way. But, they do! I have a foreboding feeling that this is going to get worse before it gets better!
LIVE FREE OR DIE!
LIVE FREE OR DIE!
Dez...you're assuming they're educated people. When I was a member of several eco groups back in Ohio I was constantly amazed at how many people in the groups had no clue what they were talking about.
The problem is eco groups prey on the undereducated who are ill prepared to fend off the boatloads of propaganda you recieve if you show even the slightest interest in one of these groups. When all your "facts" come from one biased source it's hard to become educated.
That was one of the things that made me take a close look at the groups I was associated with and realize that little of what they had to say was scientifically valid let alone practical.
The problem is eco groups prey on the undereducated who are ill prepared to fend off the boatloads of propaganda you recieve if you show even the slightest interest in one of these groups. When all your "facts" come from one biased source it's hard to become educated.
That was one of the things that made me take a close look at the groups I was associated with and realize that little of what they had to say was scientifically valid let alone practical.
With all due respect to anyone who has seen or been hurt by booby traps, I have a bit of trouble believing that this is really going on to the degree that recent posts have claimed. It's difficult for me to imagine that people are regularly laying booby traps that would injure or kill others, and yet the news isn't picking it up at all.
I know, many of you may think "that's because the liberal media supports environmentalist causes." But even if that's true, one thing the media likes MORE than left-wing issues is a juicy story like that.
I have put a call into the chief ranger at Stoddard Valley to find out if there's any truth to the recent claim that OHV users have been injured by booby traps there. If I hear back from him, I'll post the results of that conversation here.
I know, many of you may think "that's because the liberal media supports environmentalist causes." But even if that's true, one thing the media likes MORE than left-wing issues is a juicy story like that.
I have put a call into the chief ranger at Stoddard Valley to find out if there's any truth to the recent claim that OHV users have been injured by booby traps there. If I hear back from him, I'll post the results of that conversation here.
Omnivore, da Slapster be watching you...McScrappbook bound...
Spider wrote:
I can't quite buy this conclusion:
"With the growth of eco-terrorism and the preservationists' inability to control or even condemn, I fear the global community is witnessing the birth of a horrible POWER."
It's just a little too melodramatic for me.
I think the ELFs are out of hand, and the FBI will eventually break them up much as they did the radical groups in the 60s. I place ELF in the same category as the Christian Identity groups that were getting so much attention a while back.
My response:
As to MELODRAMA, i.e. exaggerated conflicts and emotions, and stereotyped characters. That's the realm of preservationists who live in trees, promote an obscure fish, insect, plant, or bird over the food and water of tens of millions of humanity. Who splash blood over some grandmother in a mink coat. Who scream, rant, threaten, blockade, sabotage, picket, and subvert legitimate processes so that they can get their way, every time. Evil ranchers, loggers, OHVers. Saintly tree-huggers and baby seal rescuers. Dialogue always works for me, but then I have to have a plan to get out of the building alive.
Spider is correct. The eco-terrorist groups will be broken-up, but re-group, then suppressed, ad nauseam.
But their persistent existence is tell-tale of how far preservationists will go to minimize the value of members of their own species (to the point of financing acts that can lead to murder) in order to advance their agendas. The troika of eco-terrorists, preservationists, and their contributor base are reminiscent of many historical powers that rise up quietly and, over time, advocate the loss of life and rights to achieve their end.
Consider the many effects of the current level of power used by preservationists, well beyond the disruption of recreation. The most frequent is water distribution, agriculture and general public health risks. But the eco-terrorism is more than just a freakish off-shoot of the movement.
Consider eco-terrorism as an experiment. The preservationists have done well in the courts, they control segments of politicians at every level of American government. Remember those politicians that vote EVERY TIME (100%) for such causes? (That's not intelligent leadership, that's puppetry.)
So why not try some violence? Some photo-op destruction? More bang for the buck. Does the regular membership draw back in unequivocal horror? Does the contributor base dry up? Does the liberal press treat such acts as heinous? Do the bought-and-paid-for politicians denounce such acts and demand investigations? Not really.
Maybe then try some new stuff to see how far the raw power can go? Maybe even draw back the eco-terrorists, absorb them and be heroes for stemming the kook fringe. Buy some love from the general public, get some more checks in the mail.
No advocacy group's ideal has ever been able to survive its rise to power. No advocacy group ever quit when their battle was won, when their effect was noted. They just become unhooked from their ideal and thrash around in sloppy mal-intent. The preservationists are simply becoming thugs drunk with power.
The real violence committed in the loss of our lives' quality as we are forced to unnaturally adjust to the preservationist's agenda. As we are bent to their measure, as we are confined by their ideal. Is that not horrible?
I can't quite buy this conclusion:
"With the growth of eco-terrorism and the preservationists' inability to control or even condemn, I fear the global community is witnessing the birth of a horrible POWER."
It's just a little too melodramatic for me.
I think the ELFs are out of hand, and the FBI will eventually break them up much as they did the radical groups in the 60s. I place ELF in the same category as the Christian Identity groups that were getting so much attention a while back.
My response:
As to MELODRAMA, i.e. exaggerated conflicts and emotions, and stereotyped characters. That's the realm of preservationists who live in trees, promote an obscure fish, insect, plant, or bird over the food and water of tens of millions of humanity. Who splash blood over some grandmother in a mink coat. Who scream, rant, threaten, blockade, sabotage, picket, and subvert legitimate processes so that they can get their way, every time. Evil ranchers, loggers, OHVers. Saintly tree-huggers and baby seal rescuers. Dialogue always works for me, but then I have to have a plan to get out of the building alive.
Spider is correct. The eco-terrorist groups will be broken-up, but re-group, then suppressed, ad nauseam.
But their persistent existence is tell-tale of how far preservationists will go to minimize the value of members of their own species (to the point of financing acts that can lead to murder) in order to advance their agendas. The troika of eco-terrorists, preservationists, and their contributor base are reminiscent of many historical powers that rise up quietly and, over time, advocate the loss of life and rights to achieve their end.
Consider the many effects of the current level of power used by preservationists, well beyond the disruption of recreation. The most frequent is water distribution, agriculture and general public health risks. But the eco-terrorism is more than just a freakish off-shoot of the movement.
Consider eco-terrorism as an experiment. The preservationists have done well in the courts, they control segments of politicians at every level of American government. Remember those politicians that vote EVERY TIME (100%) for such causes? (That's not intelligent leadership, that's puppetry.)
So why not try some violence? Some photo-op destruction? More bang for the buck. Does the regular membership draw back in unequivocal horror? Does the contributor base dry up? Does the liberal press treat such acts as heinous? Do the bought-and-paid-for politicians denounce such acts and demand investigations? Not really.
Maybe then try some new stuff to see how far the raw power can go? Maybe even draw back the eco-terrorists, absorb them and be heroes for stemming the kook fringe. Buy some love from the general public, get some more checks in the mail.
No advocacy group's ideal has ever been able to survive its rise to power. No advocacy group ever quit when their battle was won, when their effect was noted. They just become unhooked from their ideal and thrash around in sloppy mal-intent. The preservationists are simply becoming thugs drunk with power.
The real violence committed in the loss of our lives' quality as we are forced to unnaturally adjust to the preservationist's agenda. As we are bent to their measure, as we are confined by their ideal. Is that not horrible?
quote:are you implying that the mission of environmental groups has been achieved?
No advocacy group ever quit when their battle was won, when their effect was noted.
quote:Can't be. There are still...
are you implying that the mission of environmental groups has been achieved?
[*]There are still gasoline engines
[*]Roads in forests and deserts
[*]OHV's
[*]People eating meat
[*]People who live in areas where animals live, which occasionally forces people to kill animals
[*]People building houses where there were none before (well, it's okay if the house is for an environmentalist).
[*]Cattle grazing on public lands
[*]HUMAN BEINGS WHO HAVE FUN!
[list]
No I know why Blue does what he does.. Got a pic of his wife and sister here.. Notice the FUR ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Who said Blu's a he?
DUDE!!!! The one on the left has a thicker happy trail than I have. I don't want to think about the mangrove forest that it connects to!!! Trim that $h1T!!!! ![[Ninja]](graemlins/ninja.gif)
quote:Blue, Who are the "perpetrators of violence" you speak of? Offroaders?
Originally posted by Bluesky:
They may feel that they're going to fight "fire with fire" and do violence back to the perpetrators of violence.
quote:Shut the flock up you azzwhole!
Of course, you're looking to find an excuse to exercise the POWER of your machine to drive anywhere you aim it, even over public land that is home to threatened species
![[BigCry]](graemlins/bigcry.gif)
quote:Not as long as people like myself are around to stop you eco-idiot's Blu-Rod!
are you implying that the mission of environmental groups has been achieved?
LIVE FREE OR DIE!
quote:
No advocacy group ever quit when their battle was won, when their effect was noted.
Bluesky:
“are you implying that the mission of environmental groups has been achieved?”
_______________________________________________________
You say “mission”, I say “agenda”. But no, what they have achieved, what they can be given credit for, they do not even recognize as having been completed.
These groups may never win, because they cannot identify a victory and take joy in what really is defeat. Every time they think they win, they really lose. Why?
Because you can’t force a free and educated human to believe in your ideal. NEVER. And this country is crammed full of such people. Not to mention that they are also Americans: short-fused and ill-tempered when it comes to teasing their freedom.
Sure, preservationist groups have educated. Have created awareness. These achievements are great in that what is required is voluntary participation, evaluation, and conscious correction of behavior and practice by the very targets of preservationist efforts.
But our participation means that the Preservationists have lost some control, position, and superiority. They refuse to identify our growing role in their intent. That would be sharing POWER.
These groups could walk away, disband, or slip into obscurity. Now. Today. The awareness, the legitimate attitude about responsible conservationist multiple purpose public land use has taken hold. This will never dissipate, but rather will always be a part of every user’s attitude and practice. To grow with us and to guide our way.
No advocacy group ever quit when their battle was won, when their effect was noted.
Bluesky:
“are you implying that the mission of environmental groups has been achieved?”
_______________________________________________________
You say “mission”, I say “agenda”. But no, what they have achieved, what they can be given credit for, they do not even recognize as having been completed.
These groups may never win, because they cannot identify a victory and take joy in what really is defeat. Every time they think they win, they really lose. Why?
Because you can’t force a free and educated human to believe in your ideal. NEVER. And this country is crammed full of such people. Not to mention that they are also Americans: short-fused and ill-tempered when it comes to teasing their freedom.
Sure, preservationist groups have educated. Have created awareness. These achievements are great in that what is required is voluntary participation, evaluation, and conscious correction of behavior and practice by the very targets of preservationist efforts.
But our participation means that the Preservationists have lost some control, position, and superiority. They refuse to identify our growing role in their intent. That would be sharing POWER.
These groups could walk away, disband, or slip into obscurity. Now. Today. The awareness, the legitimate attitude about responsible conservationist multiple purpose public land use has taken hold. This will never dissipate, but rather will always be a part of every user’s attitude and practice. To grow with us and to guide our way.
quote:WHAT YOU BEEN SMOKIN???????????????????
These groups could walk away, disband, or slip into obscurity. Now. Today. The awareness, the legitimate attitude about responsible conservationist multiple purpose public land use has taken hold. This will never dissipate, but rather will always be a part of every user’s attitude and practice. To grow with us and to guide our way.
Just had a pipeful of Norse Gold , a Tinderbox exclusive.
"A Danish blend of bright Virginia, burley and flue cured dark leaf, naturally flavored. Cool burning, with a delightful flavor and aroma".
Of course, the pipe was hand made in Denmark. Might as well be authentic in all things that one does.
"A Danish blend of bright Virginia, burley and flue cured dark leaf, naturally flavored. Cool burning, with a delightful flavor and aroma".
Of course, the pipe was hand made in Denmark. Might as well be authentic in all things that one does.
Quick...........to Denmark to save the "Pipe tree"
quote:What he is talking about Blu is the common sense thing I've been referring to! Like I've said many times, we as OHV enthusiast dont wish to harm or do damage to what we love! But like everything else we have learned thing's from the eco-zealots and have seen the error in some of the things we did. We changed those things and continued doing what it is do love. Tread Lightly
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
These groups could walk away, disband, or slip into obscurity. Now. Today. The awareness, the legitimate attitude about responsible conservationist multiple purpose public land use has taken hold. This will never dissipate, but rather will always be a part of every user’s attitude and practice. To grow with us and to guide our way.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WHAT YOU BEEN SMOKIN???????????????????
is the motto we live by now. The fact that you and your kind cant see this is your major shortcoming. You keep preaching about how all we do is destroy! That's BS! It was the off-road community who were the one's out putting out the signs to close off the PMV areas, where were the tree-huggers! That's just one example, I've seen many more!
What you been smoking is the question!LIVE FREE OR DIE!
quote:Here is a hint...
That's just one example, I've seen many more! What you been smoking is the question!
quote:this is what you say
we as OHV enthusiast dont wish to harm or do damage to what we love! But like everything else we have learned thing's from the eco-zealots and have seen the error in some of the things we did. We changed those things and continued doing what it is do love. Tread Lightly
is the motto we live by now.
quote:this is what you mean
If you had ever been to the desert you would know that these types of roads are the way most people cross the desert! They don't just go wild across open terrain! There is to big of a chance of doing damage to your equipment!
[img]http://bbs.off-road.com/ubbthreads/download.php?Number=282791[/img]
this is what you do
[ 10-05-2002, 07:11 AM: Message edited by: Bluesky ]
Hey Blu, Is that a legal riding area?
This topic and the "Calimesa Photos" topic have now overlapped.
Dear Blue:
You Started the 2nd topic, so I guess the question is:
Is it not what one is smoking, but what damage has it caused to one's memory?
To anyone with such an affliction: try "Focus Factor". It's claims are about as believable as Preservationist rhetoric.
Also, get some new photos. Try downtown Santa Cruz, where the socialist elitist city government is abusing the homeless and you are not allowed to walk your dog. God forbid that Spot or some unfortunate alcoholic should do something NATURAL in public and offend the latte' sipping sidewalk cafe crowd! You know, the same people who write all those checks to Amnesty International, PETA, and The Sierra Club.
Dear Blue:
You Started the 2nd topic, so I guess the question is:
Is it not what one is smoking, but what damage has it caused to one's memory?
To anyone with such an affliction: try "Focus Factor". It's claims are about as believable as Preservationist rhetoric.
Also, get some new photos. Try downtown Santa Cruz, where the socialist elitist city government is abusing the homeless and you are not allowed to walk your dog. God forbid that Spot or some unfortunate alcoholic should do something NATURAL in public and offend the latte' sipping sidewalk cafe crowd! You know, the same people who write all those checks to Amnesty International, PETA, and The Sierra Club.
quote:it's all private property. there are no signs posted indicating open or closed. Fireball Socal identified the area as "the ribcage". It's located near Phelan road and hwy 395.
Hey Blu, Is that a legal riding area?
In other words, it's not a legal riding area, it's a "de facto" open area where riding is tolerated by the neighbors and the cops.
All that's needed to set a match to this would be a landowner to post his land NO Trespassing and start calling the cops who are nearby.
There recently was a lot of road work done here to widen the roads and some new berms were created alongside the paved road. Of course the kiddies on their dirt bikes are making mini-hillclimbs and drop-offs (look like half circles) all over these new berms right up to the edge of the highway. How long till there's an accident? then what?
Of course that's just one of hundreds of such places all up and down the state.
Ok, so if the owner of the land AND the police are in agreement that they're not going to persue any actionm on the people riding on this land (legality issue aside) What makes this your or anyone elses personal crusade? Just leave things alone, it seemed to get along just fine without intervention form outsiders and I'm sure it'll be just fine without some busybody "Mrs Cravitz next door" poking their nose into it.
In short I guess, what someone does with their private land is none of your business.
In short I guess, what someone does with their private land is none of your business.
quote:In this case it's what some off-roaders are doing with someone else's land.
In short I guess, what someone does with their private land is none of your business.
So maybe someday the owners will want to build on the land or turn it into a park or whatever.
The dirt bikers are going to say "but we were here first!"
I've seen this scenario argued over at public meetings. CORVA reps come out and say just that, like because the absentee landowners allowed dirt bikers to ruin the landscape that now it's a real legitimate OPEN area.
I'm sorry I don't buy that.
Bluesky says:
In this case it's what some off-roaders are doing with someone else's land.
So maybe someday the owners will want to build on the land or turn it into a park or whatever.
The dirt bikers are going to say "but we were here first!"
I've seen this scenario argued over at public meetings. CORVA reps come out and say just that, like because the absentee landowners allowed dirt bikers to ruin the landscape that now it's a real legitimate OPEN area.
I'm sorry I don't buy that.
_______________________________________________________________
To make matters worse, I'm not buying what your selling.
Trespassing is illegal, whether the owner is absentee or not.
Just because someone gets their 2 minutes at a public hearing does not make their statement intelligent or policy. I have heard some incredible asinine remarks come from these forums. It does not define someone as rational just because they stood in line for 3 hours.
Certainly today's courts are way too lenient with transgressors and come up with unbelievable judgments and awards. If someone is hurt while trespassing, yes it is possible to see the landowner suffering a loss through a lawsuit. Even when the plaintiff was committing a criminal act.
But to ask the courts to allow a criminal act to continue because, "well, heck, we've gotten used to coming here and committing a crime"? I don't think so. If such an excuse was successful, why are so many people in prison for drug convictions?
As an outdoors person, I come upon private property in many places. Unless I see the landowner and can ask for access, I go around. But if land is not posted or fenced? That's what is necessary, to post, define, and protect your property.
As to what owners eventually do with such land? Parks? Come on. Unless they get some government or trust to buy it, the land is going to the highest bidder or for the most profitable margin. Please don't offer that local agencies will demand some environmental consideration before development commences. All the landowner has to do to wave the promise of a larger tax base from property development, jobs, sales taxes, etc. Bye bye environment.
They bulldoze it, bury it under homes, roads, parking lots, and a myriad of ugly cheap landscape defacing junk, forever. The plant life you see in your picture is, at least, existing to some degree. Who knows the stability of those tracks and if a balance has been reached in that track creation has ended and the current quantity of plant/animal life will sustain or even expand?
I believe the plants that were plowed to make the road you drove on, to take that picture, are not coming back. Ever. When I drive a dirt road, at least I can imagine that it will be reclaimed by nature. I know a few that have. Not so with asphalt.
How come you didn't point your camera at your feet and take a shot of the road? Too heartbreaking, too final, too "out of your control"? Or maybe, you just don't think about it anymore or never did.
Like the kid in the movie, who says "I see dead people". You should start seeing the dead places.
It helps with prospective.
In this case it's what some off-roaders are doing with someone else's land.
So maybe someday the owners will want to build on the land or turn it into a park or whatever.
The dirt bikers are going to say "but we were here first!"
I've seen this scenario argued over at public meetings. CORVA reps come out and say just that, like because the absentee landowners allowed dirt bikers to ruin the landscape that now it's a real legitimate OPEN area.
I'm sorry I don't buy that.
_______________________________________________________________
To make matters worse, I'm not buying what your selling.
Trespassing is illegal, whether the owner is absentee or not.
Just because someone gets their 2 minutes at a public hearing does not make their statement intelligent or policy. I have heard some incredible asinine remarks come from these forums. It does not define someone as rational just because they stood in line for 3 hours.
Certainly today's courts are way too lenient with transgressors and come up with unbelievable judgments and awards. If someone is hurt while trespassing, yes it is possible to see the landowner suffering a loss through a lawsuit. Even when the plaintiff was committing a criminal act.
But to ask the courts to allow a criminal act to continue because, "well, heck, we've gotten used to coming here and committing a crime"? I don't think so. If such an excuse was successful, why are so many people in prison for drug convictions?
As an outdoors person, I come upon private property in many places. Unless I see the landowner and can ask for access, I go around. But if land is not posted or fenced? That's what is necessary, to post, define, and protect your property.
As to what owners eventually do with such land? Parks? Come on. Unless they get some government or trust to buy it, the land is going to the highest bidder or for the most profitable margin. Please don't offer that local agencies will demand some environmental consideration before development commences. All the landowner has to do to wave the promise of a larger tax base from property development, jobs, sales taxes, etc. Bye bye environment.
They bulldoze it, bury it under homes, roads, parking lots, and a myriad of ugly cheap landscape defacing junk, forever. The plant life you see in your picture is, at least, existing to some degree. Who knows the stability of those tracks and if a balance has been reached in that track creation has ended and the current quantity of plant/animal life will sustain or even expand?
I believe the plants that were plowed to make the road you drove on, to take that picture, are not coming back. Ever. When I drive a dirt road, at least I can imagine that it will be reclaimed by nature. I know a few that have. Not so with asphalt.
How come you didn't point your camera at your feet and take a shot of the road? Too heartbreaking, too final, too "out of your control"? Or maybe, you just don't think about it anymore or never did.
Like the kid in the movie, who says "I see dead people". You should start seeing the dead places.
It helps with prospective.
Omni
the land in the photo is within the planning boundaries of the Cal Desert Conservation Act and the proposed West Mojave Plan. It is also critical habitat for a number of threatened species. There are quite a few limits in place or proposed on the development of the land.
Urban open space is certainly a viable option for any vacant land and is not out of the question here.
Because of the damage already done to this area by OHVers however, I doubt if it can recover and still be useful as habitat for endangered birds, mammals and reptiles and at the same time low impact park space for people. What's the alternative?
yeah, you called it--put up a parking lot!
the land in the photo is within the planning boundaries of the Cal Desert Conservation Act and the proposed West Mojave Plan. It is also critical habitat for a number of threatened species. There are quite a few limits in place or proposed on the development of the land.
Urban open space is certainly a viable option for any vacant land and is not out of the question here.
Because of the damage already done to this area by OHVers however, I doubt if it can recover and still be useful as habitat for endangered birds, mammals and reptiles and at the same time low impact park space for people. What's the alternative?
yeah, you called it--put up a parking lot!
Good Morning Bluesky:
Governments at every level are desperate for fund (tax) raising activities. A few bucks for camping or hiking fees is a pittance compared to property taxes, etc. from developed and, thus, populated land. Alturistic planning will be (pardon the pun) bulldozed by a new and steady influx of money to our not-so-efficient public servants.
Affordable housing is the biggest issue being shouting from the rooftops. Density housing. Urban space is now just quick visual snippets creating an illusion of open space. Besides that, most urban open space is usually naturally sterile (golf courses and parks) and full of invasive exotic plants that push out the native wildlife. These Artifactual (as opposed to natural) spaces are labor, water, and material expensive. Which means more taxes, which means more housing, and so on.
But, parks are cuter than deserts. I have always been amused by the San Diego Earth Fair occurring in a sterile park full of invasive exotic plants and a parade down an asphalt street. Why not take it out to the east county open space and show what San Diego really is, naturally is?
Remediation of OHV spaces should not be a difficult issue. This is not Love Canal. Soil Compaction is the primary concern and park creation usually involves grading for run off and access. Unfortunately, the alternative is not nature, not even close.
So, the plan would be to eliminate OHV activity, illegal or otherwise, clean up the terrain, and then close it off? Private property? I want to be there when you tell the landowner that he/she must continue to pay property taxes, must protect the land, is responsble for any litigation costs, and, of course, can never sell at a profit.
Regardless of whether OHV activity or pristine untouched nature existing there: yeah, eventually it will be a parking lot!
Governments at every level are desperate for fund (tax) raising activities. A few bucks for camping or hiking fees is a pittance compared to property taxes, etc. from developed and, thus, populated land. Alturistic planning will be (pardon the pun) bulldozed by a new and steady influx of money to our not-so-efficient public servants.
Affordable housing is the biggest issue being shouting from the rooftops. Density housing. Urban space is now just quick visual snippets creating an illusion of open space. Besides that, most urban open space is usually naturally sterile (golf courses and parks) and full of invasive exotic plants that push out the native wildlife. These Artifactual (as opposed to natural) spaces are labor, water, and material expensive. Which means more taxes, which means more housing, and so on.
But, parks are cuter than deserts. I have always been amused by the San Diego Earth Fair occurring in a sterile park full of invasive exotic plants and a parade down an asphalt street. Why not take it out to the east county open space and show what San Diego really is, naturally is?
Remediation of OHV spaces should not be a difficult issue. This is not Love Canal. Soil Compaction is the primary concern and park creation usually involves grading for run off and access. Unfortunately, the alternative is not nature, not even close.
So, the plan would be to eliminate OHV activity, illegal or otherwise, clean up the terrain, and then close it off? Private property? I want to be there when you tell the landowner that he/she must continue to pay property taxes, must protect the land, is responsble for any litigation costs, and, of course, can never sell at a profit.
Regardless of whether OHV activity or pristine untouched nature existing there: yeah, eventually it will be a parking lot!
your not gettin it omni
do a search for the CDCA and the West Mojave Plan. These plans have put in motion long-range planning for the desert that will be in effect for 30 years. this planning takes into consideration species recovery as well as economic imnpacts.
minimum lot size 10 acres
allowable surface disturbance for next 30 years=1 percent!
of course this refers to land outside of municipal limits, which the land in the picture is not--(I mean I think it's in Hesperia, but maybe it's just county land in which case the West Mojave Provisions would apply.)
At any rate, if it's in the city limits, it's possible that the city or county or Wilderness group would buy the land and use it for wildlife habitat and low impact recreation.
As far as recovering a natural area that has been impacted by dirt bikes as in the picture, no one knows how long it will take. How long would you say?
[ 10-06-2002, 01:10 PM: Message edited by: Bluesky ]
do a search for the CDCA and the West Mojave Plan. These plans have put in motion long-range planning for the desert that will be in effect for 30 years. this planning takes into consideration species recovery as well as economic imnpacts.
minimum lot size 10 acres
allowable surface disturbance for next 30 years=1 percent!
of course this refers to land outside of municipal limits, which the land in the picture is not--(I mean I think it's in Hesperia, but maybe it's just county land in which case the West Mojave Provisions would apply.)
At any rate, if it's in the city limits, it's possible that the city or county or Wilderness group would buy the land and use it for wildlife habitat and low impact recreation.
As far as recovering a natural area that has been impacted by dirt bikes as in the picture, no one knows how long it will take. How long would you say?
[ 10-06-2002, 01:10 PM: Message edited by: Bluesky ]
The surface story, the public face of all this law and government good intentions makes everyone warm and fuzzy. But the irresistible forces in this game is growth and money.
Great, so there are plans, laws, edicts, whatever. Unless it's a constitutional amendment, it's as good as the career of the politician that authored it or administration that appointed the public servant that implemented such plans. To believe that some government intent is 100% wholesome and lasts forever is naive.
When the voting public want's housing, utilities, roads, and services; you can kiss the plans goodbye. Rememebr that passing a law, putting a plan into effect is only half the battle. Then comes the funding. This State's budget cut a whole bunch of money from many well-intended programs.
You ask about recovery. How long before the trails are gone, the vegetation returns? The change starts immediately, but does not progress on your or my schedule, and may actually be done well beyond our life times, but maybe even ahead of nature's schedule. Mother Nature doesn't give a darn about our clocks, calendars, and agendas. She's probably got the next dominant species already booked.
When a forest fire takes everthing done to ashes, outdoors people immediately ask that we all delight in the renewal of nature in the next season. A grass stalk here and there, a weed or two, maybe a tree seedling. The people turn their backs on the devastating event and cherish the renewal, even going so far as to relish this "opportunity" to see the beginning, as if going back in time.
Yellowstone was a classic sales job on just such an event.
My question:
Where's the horde of "renewalistas" going out in the dunes closure to wallow in the rebirth?
Great, so there are plans, laws, edicts, whatever. Unless it's a constitutional amendment, it's as good as the career of the politician that authored it or administration that appointed the public servant that implemented such plans. To believe that some government intent is 100% wholesome and lasts forever is naive.
When the voting public want's housing, utilities, roads, and services; you can kiss the plans goodbye. Rememebr that passing a law, putting a plan into effect is only half the battle. Then comes the funding. This State's budget cut a whole bunch of money from many well-intended programs.
You ask about recovery. How long before the trails are gone, the vegetation returns? The change starts immediately, but does not progress on your or my schedule, and may actually be done well beyond our life times, but maybe even ahead of nature's schedule. Mother Nature doesn't give a darn about our clocks, calendars, and agendas. She's probably got the next dominant species already booked.
When a forest fire takes everthing done to ashes, outdoors people immediately ask that we all delight in the renewal of nature in the next season. A grass stalk here and there, a weed or two, maybe a tree seedling. The people turn their backs on the devastating event and cherish the renewal, even going so far as to relish this "opportunity" to see the beginning, as if going back in time.
Yellowstone was a classic sales job on just such an event.
My question:
Where's the horde of "renewalistas" going out in the dunes closure to wallow in the rebirth?
These photos look just like the Calimesa photos! Again, where is the damage!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I see some trails going up the hill, BIG FRIGGEN DEAL! We are back to being aesthetically pleasing, It may not be pleasing to your eye, but damage! I dont think so. I know your going to say "oh the trails are going to provide a easier path for runoff bla,bla,bla, PROVE IT! Quit blowing smoke! Make your case!
LIVE FREE OR DIE!
LIVE FREE OR DIE!
quote:the funding comes from the plan. fees to develop within the plan add to the coffers that pay for inspections, enforcement etc.
When the voting public want's housing, utilities, roads, and services; you can kiss the plans goodbye. Rememebr that passing a law, putting a plan into effect is only half the battle. Then comes the funding. This State's budget cut a whole bunch of money from many well-intended programs.
the CDCA has been in effect for over 20 years. Of course, BLM has dragged their feet over route designation and monitoring of OHV damage to sensitive lands, I wonder who's paying them off?
the voting public may want housing, but without electricity, water, sewers, cable TV, phone lines, trash picup etc, they're not going to queue up and stage a protest. The power corridors and land fills have to abide by the permits granted to them.
Of course, if a variance was granted to a developer, would it be on prime habitat or on land already trashed by OHV rec?
"renewalistas"? is that you Felgin?
[ 10-06-2002, 08:23 PM: Message edited by: Bluesky ]
quote:Maybe if the BLM didn't have to spend such a large portion of their budget fighting all of the frivolous lawsuits filed against them by you idiots, they might be able to get some work done! While I'm no fan of the BLM, I think they could get alot more done if they were allowed to work with the people who use the land (OHV'ers) and not have to deal with 50 lawsuits over every project proposed from the Endangered Sand Particle Society or the Save the Dry Crusty Leaves Club or whatever bug of the week(a.k.a. the Delhi Sands fly) fan club can dream up!
the CDCA has been in effect for over 20 years. Of course, BLM has dragged their feet over route designation and monitoring of OHV damage to sensitive lands, I wonder who's paying them off?
![[Mad]](mad.gif)
LIVE FREE OR DIE!
quote:Don't expect an answer from Bluesky.
Where's the horde of "renewalistas" going out in the dunes closure to wallow in the rebirth?
quote:OHVers misuse the land
While I'm no fan of the BLM, I think they could get alot more done if they were allowed to work with the people who use the land (OHV'ers)
quote:of course in your world conservation isn't necessary.
and not have to deal with 50 lawsuits over every project proposed from the Endangered Sand Particle Society or the Save the Dry Crusty Leaves Club or whatever bug of the week(a.k.a. the Delhi Sands fly) fan club can dream up!
quote:As expected! Wimp ass!
Originally posted by Poiks:
quote:Don't expect an answer from Bluesky.
Where's the horde of "renewalistas" going out in the dunes closure to wallow in the rebirth?
[ 10-07-2002, 09:29 AM: Message edited by: Poiks ]
quote:Conservation, yes. Exaggeration and distortion as implied by the eco-nazis, no! Your idea of "conservation" is not even close to what is needed! We need to conserve the land for the people not from the people! Using your form of "conservation" no one would ever get to see or appreciate the wonder that is the desert! No, just fence it off and save it for some fanciful future generation. In my experience, when public land is closed, it stays closed! I'm not going to let that happen!
of course in your world conservation isn't necessary
LIVE FREE OR DIE!
quote:do we conserve the land by allowing a tiny minority to destroy the natural habitat and threatened wildlife it supports?
We need to conserve the land for the people not from the people!
quote:Not true. Open to animal-back riding, hiking, etc. Just no motor vehicles.
Using your form of "conservation" no one would ever get to see or appreciate the wonder that is the desert!
quote:tell us about your experience.
In my experience, when public land is closed, it stays closed!
quote:what are you going to do about it?
I'm not going to let that happen!
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.