dezfan1
Nov 13 2002, 04:59 PM
These are two of the bills in the house right now that are meant to reform the ESA! HR5709 would exempt all private land, military bases, and would eliminate all plant species from the ESA! This in my opinion would be the best option, but it most likely will not pass. HR4840 is a compromise bill. it was introduced in May, 2002 and will have to be reintroduced for the next session to go anywhere. Contact your elected official and express your support of the bills! It's time to take a stand against the ESA!
![[Mad]](mad.gif)
With our nation on the brink of war, it is asinine to have our military bases closed to training because of the ESA! Also, private property right need to be re-established! These bills would correct both issues are a step in the right direction!
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Bluesky
Nov 13 2002, 08:01 PM
speaking of private property rights, I attended a public meeting today and learned that private property owners are being forced to sell their property to the US government to be used as OHV recreation areas. If the owners don't accept the government's offer of $800 an acre, the gov't gets the county to condemn the property and then they get it for nothing!
[ 11-13-2002, 08:03 PM: Message edited by: Bluesky ]
Doorlord
Nov 13 2002, 08:32 PM
Any details Blu? I would have been interested in attending the meeting. Will there be any more of these meetings in the future?
Where was it?
Bluesky
Nov 13 2002, 08:54 PM
dezfan1
Nov 13 2002, 09:09 PM
I guess you have to dig to find the info. I went to all four sites and did not see anyhting about private land being taken from it's owners.
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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Doorlord
Nov 14 2002, 06:32 AM
Which specific meeting are you talking about?
El Mirage?
I was at the last one you listed (Barstow DAC) and I don't recall anything that you described.
[ 11-14-2002, 07:06 AM: Message edited by: Doorlord ]
dezfan1
Nov 17 2002, 09:46 PM
A little dis-information being placed here? What a surprise! same ol' party line. I'm so surprised, NOT!
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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Bluesky
Nov 18 2002, 06:01 AM
when OHV parks are planned and paid for with tax dollars and cooperative management agreements are negotiated between federal, state and county service providers, sometimes the fine print is overlooked. Stoddard Valley, El Mirage, Johnson Valley, ISDRA, all are approved OHV parks that necesitate buying out the private inholders of property within the park. Owners are offered the "going rate" for their lands. What if they don't want to sell? The county condemns their lands and buys them anyway at the price they decide. All this so that law-abiding OHVers can ride in an approved locale.
But what about the legions of riders that want to camp and ride in Limited Use areas? there's no control over where they ride and they leave new tracks on cricital habitat areas and on private property areas all over the West everyday of the week.
Why don't they stay in the Open areas? Why don't we pass a law requiring all green sticker vehicles to stay in Open areas? It would make it easier to apprehend illegal off-roaders. Could you support this idea?
Permagrin
Nov 18 2002, 08:16 AM
Why Not enforce existing Law?
dezfan1
Nov 18 2002, 04:22 PM
quote:
But what about the legions of riders that want to camp and ride in Limited Use areas? there's no control over where they ride and they leave new tracks on critical habitat areas and on private property areas all over the West everyday of the week
Due to the huge popularity of our sport, more land needs to be opened to unlimited use. Closing the few areas we have(i.e. the PMV closures in the ISDRA) is only making the problem worse! With good science on our side, enforcment of current laws, and the hopeful reform of the ESA in the near future, these changes are possible.
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[ 11-18-2002, 06:22 PM: Message edited by: dezfan1 ]
Poiks
Nov 18 2002, 04:44 PM
Eco-nuts support laws that hamstring land owners who might have an endangered snail in a puddle on their yards; in that case they can't develop their land OR get fair value for it.
Suddenly those same fanatics are upset when land owners are pushed in the other direction. And this meets Blu's tried and true criteria, spewed time and time again, about the "planning process" and "public hearings" and all. In a word: H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-T-E
Bluesky
Nov 18 2002, 06:56 PM
quote:
Eco-nuts support laws that hamstring land owners who might have an endangered snail in a puddle on their yards; in that case they can't develop their land OR get fair value for it.
please provide some backup for your assertions.
has this ever happened? when? to whom? url?
quote:
Suddenly those same fanatics are upset when land owners are pushed in the other direction. And this meets Blu's tried and true criteria, spewed time and time again, about the "planning process" and "public hearings" and all. In a word: H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-T-E
you got something to say? why don't you say it?
Bluesky
Nov 18 2002, 07:00 PM
quote:
Why Not enforce existing Law?
with 5 law enforcement officers for the entire CDCA, it just isn't working.
Bluesky
Nov 18 2002, 07:04 PM
quote:
With good science on our side
you can't call Olsen and Assoc "good science" just because you paid for it.
quote:
and the hopeful reform of the ESA in the near future,
reform the ESA so it won't protect endangered species and you'll be legally free to destroy the entire desert. All for an afternoon of ephemeral escape from boredom.
quote:
Due to the huge popularity of our sport, more land needs to be opened to unlimited use.
there is plenty of land within the OPEN areas.
[ 11-18-2002, 07:09 PM: Message edited by: Bluesky ]
Poiks
Nov 18 2002, 08:25 PM
Backup on the snail:
http://www.bestfriends.org/gc/ac/undgrndlake2.htm quote:
The owner of the property decided to drain the lake, but his plan was thwarted by the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service: The lake, it turned out, was one of the only remaining homes of the tiny endangered Kanab Amber Snail. The owner of the property would be fined $50,000 per dead snail.
Do you own research by searching the web for "Kanab Amber Snail"
[ 11-18-2002, 08:25 PM: Message edited by: Poiks ]
dezfan1
Nov 18 2002, 08:30 PM
quote:
reform the ESA so it won't protect endangered species
No, reform it so that it is used as intended! Not used to override private property rights or hamstring our military. The ESA was never intended to protect species like fly's! It was intended to protect large key species! "GREEN INC." has manipulated it to serve their own twisted agenda.
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jhitesma
Nov 18 2002, 11:11 PM
quote:
you can't call Olsen and Assoc "good science" just because you paid for it.
Not that anyone is calling it good just because it was paid for. But if TOA is so untrustworth then maybe we need to start the delisting process for the dozens of species they're responsible for getting listed.
Bluesky
Nov 19 2002, 06:38 AM
hitesma--good one!
poiks--I'm learning!
quote:
No, reform it so that it is used as intended! Not used to override private property rights or hamstring our military. The ESA was never intended to protect species like fly's! It was intended to protect large key species! "GREEN INC." has manipulated it to serve their own twisted agenda.
the Military isn't affected by the ESA, much to the chagrin of desert lovers everywhere who resist the expansion of Fort Irwin into some pristine areas in Kern County. They're able to expand and train our soldiers to fight to protect our nation's interests.
Our government can even provide a site where private corporations can dump radioactive wastes that will be dangerous for tens of thousands of years. They can do this against the collective will of the people of the entire state of Nevada! (yucca mountain)
I'm not an ESA scholar, but lots of development of private property is done by corporations who buy up tracts of land and then churn out impractical homes and golf courses to make a quick buck. There's a lawsuit going on now in Palmdale where a developer built a housing tract right on top of an active fault and the land has shifted over the past ten years. Should there be laws preventing this?
How can you speak for the lawmakers that crafted this legislation and for those who elected them? How are you privy to "how it was originally intended"?
Have you looked into the ecological niche occupied by flies? Maybe we need all of the species in our world.
The Pastor
Nov 19 2002, 10:02 AM
quote:
There's a lawsuit going on now in Palmdale where a developer built a housing tract right on top of an active fault and the land has shifted over the past ten years. Should there be laws preventing this?
First: What does this have to do with environmental concerns? Are we trying to protect the endangerd Quake fault now?
Second: Yes, there ARE laws against this unsafe practice. That would be WHY they are in court.
quote:
Have you looked into the ecological niche occupied by flies? Maybe we need all of the species in our world.
or maybe we would be just fine without the flies! Who are you to say? I bet you would fight to protect the endangerd "EBOLA" virus!
If we needed all of the species in our world then why have millions of species gone extinct while millions more have come into being?
Vor
Bluesky
Nov 20 2002, 12:59 AM
quote:
First: What does this have to do with environmental concerns? Are we trying to protect the endangerd Quake fault now?
you're right. I mention it only to show that housing developers will do whatever it takes to make money, even building homes on unsafe ground. Do you think we can trust them to respect the natural landscape without the ESA to protect us? quote:
If we needed all of the species in our world then why have millions of species gone extinct while millions more have come into being?
are you a naruralist now Vor?
can you find some literature you can quote that mentions the numbers of species that have gone extinct and those that have recently evolved?
Do you (or anybody) know enough about our world to decide which species we need and which we don't?
The Pastor
Nov 19 2002, 01:12 PM
quote:
Do you (or anybody) know enough about our world to decide which species we need and which we don't?
That's why it isn't our decision which species lives or dies. It's called natural selection... not selection based on it's cuteness factor! Or some other factor that YOU feel is important, like protecting the Piersons Milkvetch because it coincides with your anti-OHV agenda.
It's pretty simple how survival of the fittest works. If some species is unable to survive then it needs to die. Otherwise it takes valuable recources from other species... like HUMANS!!!
Who are YOU to say how many species the world needs to sustain humans?
After all... that's the only species that REALLY matters... All the rest are only there to sustain us.
Vor
Bluesky
Nov 19 2002, 01:25 PM
quote:
Who are YOU to say how many species the world needs to sustain humans?
After all... that's the only species that REALLY matters... All the rest are only there to sustain us.
I agree with you on this one Vor.
My belief is that we don't know enough about our world to allow any species to go extinct. I believe we can extinguish many species including our own if we're not careful. Ever hear of the story of miners taking a canary down into the mine? If the canary died, it was time to get out quick because all the air was being used up.
That's what the extreme amount of die-offs of species in this century may be telling us--that we humans are at risk from pollution, noise, dust, etc.
dezfan1
Nov 19 2002, 01:40 PM
quote:
like protecting the Piersons Milkvetch because it coincides with your anti-OHV agenda.
We all know that the PMV is not endangered, but the members of "GREEN INC." will use it to help them reach their final goal of total control of all lands, both public and private. Talk about a "new world order"! ![[Disturbed]](graemlins/disturbed.gif)
LIVE FREE OR DIE!
The Pastor
Nov 19 2002, 03:44 PM
quote:
My belief is that we don't know enough about our world to allow any species to go extinct. I believe we can extinguish many species including our own if we're not careful.
Listen, we don't ALLOW species to go extinct. They DO! It's nature. If the human race were to simply not ALLOW any species from going extinct well, I guess we'd be back in the stone age, wouldn't we?
It's your BELIEF that ANY species that goes extinct, including some barely different sub-species that is habitat dependant, will ultimatly harm humans. Fine, believe all you want. The BELIEF does not make it fact.
You go on deluding yourself that you are "taking the high moral ground" because "you care". In the meantime the rest of us are going to go outside and LIVE.
Vor
Poiks
Nov 19 2002, 04:04 PM
Blu, that's a stinkin' pile of dog poop. We somehow survived the extinction of the dinosaurs, and countless other species that weren't fit for survival in their environments. How many species of plants and animals have come and gone on this planet? Thousands? Hundreds of thousands? Millions? The ecosystem, in its infinite wisdom, "let" those species go extinct. You may not like it, but humans are part of that same ecosystem.
Only human beings have the absurd pomposity to assume that we need to take over the reins and prop up species that can't survive in a natural environment that includes all of the species on Earth today, and all of those species' activities, including eating, hunting, and yes--recreation.
Why is it that if a chimpanzee gets bored and rips up a few hundred plants, or an elephant uproots too many trees on the savannah, that's nature--but when human activity impacts a species it's wanton destruction?
Bluesky
Nov 19 2002, 04:10 PM
quote:
Why is it that if a chimpanzee gets bored and rips up a few hundred plants, or an elephant uproots too many trees on the savannah, that's nature--but when human activity impacts a species it's wanton destruction?
that's a good question. I'll bet you can find the answer ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Poiks
Nov 19 2002, 04:20 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Bluesky:
that's a good question. I'll bet you can find the answer
So in other words there's no use in addressing you in these forums at all. Now I get it. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Permagrin
Nov 19 2002, 06:53 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Bluesky:
quote:
Why Not enforce existing Law?
with 5 law enforcement officers for the entire CDCA, it just isn't working.
Then whats the point to having? " More Laws"? that cannot be enforced?
[ 11-19-2002, 06:54 PM: Message edited by: WFO WR500 ]
dezfan1
Nov 19 2002, 08:08 PM
Good point WFO, If they can't enforce the laws already on the books, what good will adding more laws do? We need to stop the "GREEN INC." groups for raiding the limited funds that are available to the BLM for land management. Then those funds could be used for their intended use, instead of lining "GREEN INC." pocket's!
LIVE FREE OR DIE!
jhitesma
Nov 19 2002, 10:32 PM
quote:
Originally posted by dezfan1:
Good point WFO, If they can't enforce the laws already on the books, what good will adding more laws do? We need to stop the "GREEN INC." groups for raiding the limited funds that are available to the BLM for land management. Then those funds could be used for their intended use, instead of lining "GREEN INC." pocket's!
LIVE FREE OR DIE!
Easy, more laws that can't be enforced equals more broken laws equals a good reason for the general public to accept the broken conclusion that the only option is to lock the public out of the public land.
Bluesky
Nov 20 2002, 05:23 AM
the problem is uncontrolled OHV trail proliferation outside of Open areas.
what do you suggest we do about it?
Doorlord
Nov 20 2002, 06:20 AM
I suggest we get back to the topic....
Dezfan1 wrote
"These are two of the bills in the house right now that are meant to reform the ESA! HR5709 would exempt all private land, military bases, and would eliminate all plant species from the ESA! This in my opinion would be the best option, but it most likely will not pass. HR4840 is a compromise bill. it was introduced in May, 2002 and will have to be reintroduced for the next session to go anywhere. Contact your elected official and express your support of the bills! It's time to take a stand against the ESA! [Mad]
With our nation on the brink of war, it is asinine to have our military bases closed to training because of the ESA! Also, private property right need to be re-established! These bills would correct both issues are a step in the right direction! [Big Grin]"
jhitesma
Nov 20 2002, 01:21 PM
I've got an idea BS. You start working on getting "mainstream" enviro groups working towards controlling their extremists like EF! and then I'd be willing to discuss getting responsible OHV users who ride in an open riding area (the ISDRA which this BBS is here to disucss) working towards controlling the extremists who don't ride in open areas.
The analogy is closer than you'll want to admit.
Bluesky
Nov 20 2002, 01:39 PM
EF==maybe 500 altogether. These are criminals who are hunted down by police detectives.
off-road scofflaws==maybe 500,000 altogether. these are kids on dirt bikes, 4x4s and ATVs who would maybe get a ticket worth $50-150 if they could be apprehended.
The off-roaders are leaving a larger and larger footprint on the natural areas of our region. Resistance to these scofflaws will be felt by all off-roaders, as unidentified dirt bikers are impossible to apprehend. The sympathies on this and other boards obviously lie with the scofflaws.
dezfan1
Nov 20 2002, 02:15 PM
The sky is falling, the sky is falling,
![[BigCry]](graemlins/bigcry.gif)
bla,bla,bla! (Something unpronounceable) off-roaders are leaving a foot print! OOOOOOOOOOOW! That's so worrisome!
What are we going to do?
Blu, get a grip dude, your losing it!
LIVE FREE OR DIE!
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