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Full Version: BLU'S LATEST RANT!!!
OK, Over on the DesertUSA board, Blu has stated that "Motorized Recreation will be the end of our civilization unless we stop it now". Then he states that it wasn't his/her/it's post! Now, I know Blu is very angry and illogical when it comes to the use of our public lands by the OHV community, but the end of the world?! I think the Bluzer has lost it on this one!
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LIVE FREE OR DIE!
I wonder what the relative percentage of motorized recreation is relative to the amount of motorized everything else?
Everything else requires a PERMANENT track to travel on. Roads, RR tracks, runways, dredged harbors and piers, parking lots and so on. Enviros, much as they swear to know and love the vegetation, have lost the forest while they hug a few trees.
The O means Off. Off Road or Off Highway. When the OHV vehicle goes home, the land is still there, still facing the sun and still capable of all it's faculties. How come when the highway crew burns and poisons the few tough plants that find crack to anchor in, the enviros do not rush to the weed's defense? How come road kill is not a tragedy worthy of web sites and news letter front pages? How come hunting is evil but dismembering a whitetail with your buick is only noticed by, and a concern of, the driver and the body shop?
But the permanent track volume keeps growing. Even if enviros could prevent recreational OHV activity, they can not stop the non recreational kind. Every bulldozer that bites the land to prepare for the asphalt cover is OHV at it's worst.
So while they rejoice in stopping a drip of fun, a veritable dam burst of destruction goes on around them. Running around like demented heroes in front of the news cameras, sandbagging that wisp of recreational OHV moisture, as if holding back a deluge, while the tidal wave of asphalt and concrete bears down on them.
Thought for the day: Most enviros vote liberal. Liberals like to collect money and quickly spend all of it (and more) on projects such as highways and other development. Therefore enviros, a sub set of liberals, actually destroy much more nature than all their lawsuits and political power is claimed to save. Governnment is growing into the largest business and employer of all time. Their government, their industry, their business.
Their destruction.
Everything else requires a PERMANENT track to travel on. Roads, RR tracks, runways, dredged harbors and piers, parking lots and so on. Enviros, much as they swear to know and love the vegetation, have lost the forest while they hug a few trees.
The O means Off. Off Road or Off Highway. When the OHV vehicle goes home, the land is still there, still facing the sun and still capable of all it's faculties. How come when the highway crew burns and poisons the few tough plants that find crack to anchor in, the enviros do not rush to the weed's defense? How come road kill is not a tragedy worthy of web sites and news letter front pages? How come hunting is evil but dismembering a whitetail with your buick is only noticed by, and a concern of, the driver and the body shop?
But the permanent track volume keeps growing. Even if enviros could prevent recreational OHV activity, they can not stop the non recreational kind. Every bulldozer that bites the land to prepare for the asphalt cover is OHV at it's worst.
So while they rejoice in stopping a drip of fun, a veritable dam burst of destruction goes on around them. Running around like demented heroes in front of the news cameras, sandbagging that wisp of recreational OHV moisture, as if holding back a deluge, while the tidal wave of asphalt and concrete bears down on them.
Thought for the day: Most enviros vote liberal. Liberals like to collect money and quickly spend all of it (and more) on projects such as highways and other development. Therefore enviros, a sub set of liberals, actually destroy much more nature than all their lawsuits and political power is claimed to save. Governnment is growing into the largest business and employer of all time. Their government, their industry, their business.
Their destruction.
"WHEW"...Slap sure do like yo style Omnivore...McScrappbook bound this piece is...
Thanks for the compliment, Slap. But use recycled paper, not the new stuff that the enviros use in their lawsuits.
even though I didn't write the post that shorty has copied here, I would like to respond to Omni's comments.
Who benefits from development? Private industry! who supports Republicans? private industry! Who subcontracts for highway construction? private industry! Who benefits from the Government's biggest industry--the military? Private industry!
Liberals want to spend money on staffing libraries, hiring teachers, buying books, helping the poor and homeless, fighting the spread of AIDS and teen pregnancies.
get your political parties straight.
quote:you could probably find out as the Ca Dept of Parks And Rec gets a portion of gas tax money based on the estimates of off-road use. they add those funds to the Green Sticker Funds. the money is to be used to enforce laws meant to protect the environment from OHV misuse.
I wonder what the relative percentage of motorized recreation is relative to the amount of motorized everything else?
quote:When OHV use removes ground cover, the soil is blown away as dust and only sterile sand is left.
When the OHV vehicle goes home, the land is still there, still facing the sun and still capable of all it's faculties.
quote:as pointed out before, Green groups advocate "smart growth" which would limit new highway constructiona and indeed, limit the need for them.
How come when the highway crew burns and poisons the few tough plants that find crack to anchor in, the enviros do not rush to the weed's defense?
quote:for those who read, this does come up from time to time. Caltrans is busy installing tortoise proof fencing on both sides of major highways through the Mojave. this will cut down on roadkill that sustains the raven population during tortoise hibernations.
How come road kill is not a tragedy worthy of web sites and news letter front pages?
quote:funny, undeveloped lands must be assessed in an Environmental Impact Statement before development can proceed. When it can be shown that the land has no value as habitat because of previous OHV use that has denuded it of significant vegetation, development can be approved. It's obvious that OHV rec prepares natural areas for development.
Every bulldozer that bites the land to prepare for the asphalt cover is OHV at it's worst.
quote:thought for the day: you're cracked!!
Thought for the day: Most enviros vote liberal. Liberals like to collect money and quickly spend all of it (and more) on projects such as highways and other development. Therefore enviros, a sub set of liberals, actually destroy much more nature than all their lawsuits and political power is claimed to save. Governnment is growing into the largest business and employer of all time. Their government, their industry, their business.
Who benefits from development? Private industry! who supports Republicans? private industry! Who subcontracts for highway construction? private industry! Who benefits from the Government's biggest industry--the military? Private industry!
Liberals want to spend money on staffing libraries, hiring teachers, buying books, helping the poor and homeless, fighting the spread of AIDS and teen pregnancies.
get your political parties straight.
Quote Blu
What do you mean that it's PRIVATE INDUSTRY that benifits from the military? EVERYONE! Every man woman and child in this country, citizen or not. Black, white, gay, straight, Catholic, Jew, Muslim... EVERYONE benifits from the military.
including you.
It is your political party that is the cause of the unrest and trouble in this country. More and more people are becoming aware of it.
Your days are numbered.
Vor
quote:This is the law that brings the OHMRV to life. The OHMRV is the panel that decides where the Green Sticker Fees go. It is made up, mostly, of so called environmentalists.
they add those funds to the Green Sticker Funds. the money is to be used to enforce laws meant to protect the environment from OHV misuse.
quote:The Green Sticker Fees are to be used to EXPAND Off Road areas... Instead, they are increasingly used, as you say, by the Environmentalists to close down current riding areas.
5090.01. This chapter shall be known and may be cited as the
Off-Highway Motor Vehicle Recreation Act of 1988.
5090.02. (a) The Legislature finds that off-highway motor vehicles are enjoying an ever-increasing popularity in California and that the indiscriminate and uncontrolled use of those vehicles may have a deleterious impact on the environment, wildlife habitats, native
wildlife, and native flora.
(b) The Legislature hereby declares that effectively managed areas and adequate facilities for the use of off-highway vehicles and conservation and enforcement are essential for ecologically balanced recreation.
© Accordingly, it is the intent of the Legislature that:
(1) Existing off-highway motor vehicle recreational areas, facilities, and opportunities be expanded and be managed in a manner consistent with this chapter, in particular to maintain sustained long-term use.
(2) New off-highway motor vehicle recreational areas, facilities, and opportunities be provided and managed pursuant to this chapter in a manner that will sustain long-term use.
quote:So, when the Ravens can no longer get the roadkill will they automaticly go on a tortise free diet? Will they actually HUNT living tortises? or will the Ravens simply become extinct?
for those who read, this does come up from time to time. Caltrans is busy installing tortoise proof fencing on both sides of major highways through the Mojave. this will cut down on roadkill that sustains the raven population during tortoise hibernations.
quote:The entire nation, including you, benifits from development. To say that only private industry benifits from development is simple class envy, something that liberals have down to a science.
Who benefits from development? Private industry!
quote:What exactly does this mean? That because private industry believes in fiscally sound economic principals like actually paying your bills that there is something wrong with them? They should believe the way YOU believe because you are right and we are wrong?
who supports Republicans? private industry!
quote:And you would suggest WHO ELSE for the job? PUBLIC industry? More Class envy.
Who subcontracts for highway construction? private industry!
quote:I tell ya what. We'll take you and anyone else who doesn't want the military protecting them from various evils in the world and we'll place you out on an island somewhere. You can live in peace and harmony, with NO military...
Who benefits from the Government's biggest industry--the military? Private industry!
What do you mean that it's PRIVATE INDUSTRY that benifits from the military? EVERYONE! Every man woman and child in this country, citizen or not. Black, white, gay, straight, Catholic, Jew, Muslim... EVERYONE benifits from the military.
including you.
quote:And Conservitives don't? That's the implication and it's total BULL CRAP. It's just you Liberals trying to create more class envy, more hate in our country so that you Liberals can step in and say... "Here, let the government help you in your time of need!"
Liberals want to spend money on staffing libraries, hiring teachers, buying books, helping the poor and homeless, fighting the spread of AIDS and teen pregnancies.
It is your political party that is the cause of the unrest and trouble in this country. More and more people are becoming aware of it.
Your days are numbered.
Vor
quote:that's what I've been trying to tell you.
the indiscriminate and uncontrolled use of those vehicles may have a deleterious impact on the environment, wildlife habitats, native
wildlife, and native flora.
quote:no argument there--notice the words conservation and enforcement?
The Legislature hereby declares that effectively managed areas and adequate facilities for the use of off-highway vehicles and conservation and enforcement are essential for ecologically balanced recreation.
If the BLM, or in their absence, CORVA or ASA had chose to monitor their effects on the dune ecosystems, we wouldn't be in this mess.
the last two parts of the law you quoted vor specifically state "long term sustained use". This can only be accomplished by monitoring the effects of OHV impacts on the ecosystems within the park, something which I never hear about at "Friends of Jawbone, Dumont, El Mirage..." or the other CORVA surrogate groups.
quote:vor--when the tortoises are hibernating or estivating (living underground to get out of the summer heat), the ravens can't get to them. If there is no other road kill or land fills to provide food for them, their numbers will fall off and the degree of their threats to the tortoise will lessen. I don't think they are in danger of extinction. have you heard otherwise?
So, when the Ravens can no longer get the roadkill will they automaticly go on a tortise free diet? Will they actually HUNT living tortises? or will the Ravens simply become extinct?
quote:come on vor, it's not that simple--class envy????
The entire nation, including you, benifits from development. To say that only private industry benifits from development is simple class envy.
Do we as a nation benefit from development such as the "factory outlet mall" near Cabazon? Have you been in there and compared prices? It's a total rip-off and waste of space. How does this benfit anyone except the developers who bought sold the land and built the buildings. In the near future those buildings will be a rotten eyesore with all of the buildings empty--Have you seen the "factory stores" near hiway 14 in Lancaster? 90% empty.
quote:don't be naive vor. under Clinton we were paying off the national debt. Under Bush we gave all the surplus back to the rich and now are operating on deficit spending--creating MORE national debt.
quote:
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who supports Republicans? private industry!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What exactly does this mean? That because private industry believes in fiscally sound economic principals like actually paying your bills that there is something wrong with them?
Look at Enron, etc--they don't pay their bills, they hide their debts in mumbo-jumbo double sets of books and then take the money and run, not even leaving the retirement plans intact for their employees. don't you read the paper? Doesn't Bill Handel cover these issues?
quote:I benefit from the military that backs up multinational corporations based in the US that can go into third world countries and operate their factories with no regard to environmental controls or labor unions and produce a cheap product for me to buy here in America. meanwhile, Americans are losing jobs that are now done cheaper overseas. If the liberals in foreign countries take over (like in Venezuela) the US funds resistance to their regimes until they get a good dictator in power that will treat our corporations right. I benefit from cheap goods. Little by little, people in other countries are catching on--maybe because of the internet! They are getting ****ed at the way we treat them and react by targetting us as in 9-11. Now how am I benefitting? I'm afraid to get on a plane or travel to a foreign country.
I tell ya what. We'll take you and anyone else who doesn't want the military protecting them from various evils in the world and we'll place you out on an island somewhere. You can live in peace and harmony, with NO military...
What do you mean that it's PRIVATE INDUSTRY that benifits from the military? EVERYONE! Every man woman and child in this country, citizen or not. Black, white, gay, straight, Catholic, Jew, Muslim... EVERYONE benifits from the military.
including you.
quote:vor vor vor--educate yourself. These things cost money and need to be supported by taxes. conservatives are rich and don't want to pay taxes. The rich live in gated communities with their own security, they don't care about funding police forces. They have their own libraries, they don;t care about funding public libraries or symphony orchestras or community colleges...Read, educate yourself.
quote:
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Liberals want to spend money on staffing libraries, hiring teachers, buying books, helping the poor and homeless, fighting the spread of AIDS and teen pregnancies.
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And Conservitives don't?
quote:that's a funny thing to say the day that Trent Lott (Republican) resigns as majority leader because he's been caught making public racist statements.
It is your political party that is the cause of the unrest and trouble in this country. More and more people are becoming aware of it.
Your days are numbered.
Vor
[ 12-20-2002, 01:10 PM: Message edited by: Bluesky ]
Trent Lott made no racist statements at Strom Thurmans Birthday celebration.
Your rebuttle only proves my point that Liberals are about fostering class envy. Every other statement you make is pure class envy.
Next thing you'll say is that Ronald Regan was the devil.
Vor
Your rebuttle only proves my point that Liberals are about fostering class envy. Every other statement you make is pure class envy.
quote:So YOU say it's a total rip of so it must be. I guess the builders plan on ripping off the public, until they won't take it anymore, then they'll claim bankruptcy, and then sell everything at a handy profit... and then purchass more land and do the same thing? Your delusions would be quite entertaining, if they weren't so dangerous.
Have you been in there and compared prices? It's a total rip-off and waste of space. How does this benfit anyone except the developers who bought sold the land and built the buildings.
quote:This outright lie further proves my point. That you want to belittle those who have success and reward those who don't.
under Clinton we were paying off the national debt. Under Bush we gave all the surplus back to the rich and now are operating on deficit spending--creating MORE national debt.
Next thing you'll say is that Ronald Regan was the devil.
quote:So, now 9/11 is the fault of our military, which is funded by the Republicans? Get real.
They are getting ****ed at the way we treat them and react by targetting us as in 9-11. Now how am I benefitting? I'm afraid to get on a plane or travel to a foreign country.
quote:This is one of the most bigoted, class hating comments I have ever read. Your true colors are really showing now.
These things cost money and need to be supported by taxes. conservatives are rich and don't want to pay taxes. The rich live in gated communities with their own security, they don't care about funding police forces. They have their own libraries, they don;t care about funding public libraries or symphony orchestras or community colleges...Read, educate yourself.
Vor
Blu is living in the same dreamworld as a lot of other liberals. So I guess, blu, that 50% of Americans are rich and live in gated communities? Considering that about 50% (I guess a little less) voted for George Dubya Bush, that's what your statement implies.
I used to think like you, Blu. And then I realized that the fat-cats we see on TV in Washington have little or nothing to do with the realities of the people in the rest of the United States. You can pretend, as I did, that all Republicans area bunch of fat, angry, racist, bible-thumping haters--but that's just more evidence that you have no real insight beyond what you see on television.
I used to think like you, Blu. And then I realized that the fat-cats we see on TV in Washington have little or nothing to do with the realities of the people in the rest of the United States. You can pretend, as I did, that all Republicans area bunch of fat, angry, racist, bible-thumping haters--but that's just more evidence that you have no real insight beyond what you see on television.
I can't believe how some of you keep falling for the Troll bait. Come on the guy can't open his mouth without contradicting himself.
First he says the TOA study is worthless because it was funded by the ASA now he's saying if the ASA had funded studies we wouldn't be in this mess.
He says bikes can be heard from miles away but it's not safe to hike in the dunes because you might get run over (I guess hikers are deaf?)
He says he's not against OHV use yet his personal website is named "BANORVS"
You guys really gotta learn that the only way to deal with a troll is to ignore them and not reply to their drivel. Talk amongst yourselves about the BS that BS spews all you want but responding to him only encourages him to keep spewing more BS.
First he says the TOA study is worthless because it was funded by the ASA now he's saying if the ASA had funded studies we wouldn't be in this mess.
He says bikes can be heard from miles away but it's not safe to hike in the dunes because you might get run over (I guess hikers are deaf?)
He says he's not against OHV use yet his personal website is named "BANORVS"
You guys really gotta learn that the only way to deal with a troll is to ignore them and not reply to their drivel. Talk amongst yourselves about the BS that BS spews all you want but responding to him only encourages him to keep spewing more BS.
Blu, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck. It's probably a duck!
![[Angry Fire]](graemlins/angryfire.gif)
TROLL!!!
LIVE FREE OR DIE!
TROLL!!! LIVE FREE OR DIE!
Dont make me break out the Green guy again! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
hitesma is the worst.. He spent so much effort to create this website that he hates it that people who think different than him get to use it to spew their own ideas.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
If ASA had commissioned a study by a CBD sanctioned biologist, the CBD would have had to abide by its findings. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
ANY studies at all by OHV groups made with the intent to monitor OHV impacts on the dunes would have proven good intentions and mitigated the effects of any suit brought against the BLM. OH well 20/20 hindsight. ![[Beer]](graemlins/beer.gif)
It's NEVER too late.![[Skull]](graemlins/skull.gif)
[ 12-20-2002, 07:15 PM: Message edited by: Bluesky ]
quote:maybe that sounds a little confusing.
First he says the TOA study is worthless because it was funded by the ASA now he's saying if the ASA had funded studies we wouldn't be in this mess.
If ASA had commissioned a study by a CBD sanctioned biologist, the CBD would have had to abide by its findings. ANY studies at all by OHV groups made with the intent to monitor OHV impacts on the dunes would have proven good intentions and mitigated the effects of any suit brought against the BLM.
OH well 20/20 hindsight. It's NEVER too late.
[ 12-20-2002, 07:15 PM: Message edited by: Bluesky ]
quote:I didn't know Jason created this website, no wonder he never gets any sleep.
Originally posted by Bluesky:
hitesma is the worst.. He spent so much effort to create this website that he hates it that people who think different than him get to use it to spew their own ideas.
Heck I didn't even know I created this website!
In actually all that last post was is a tradional red herring by BS to avoid the tough questions I threw out. Instead of refusing the facts (which would be too obvious of a lie) he makes up some BS to spew instead. Maybe I should repeat the examples of hypocracy here again:
First he says the TOA study is worthless because it was funded by the ASA now he's saying if the ASA had funded studies we wouldn't be in this mess.
He says bikes can be heard from miles away but it's not safe to hike in the dunes because you might get run over (I guess hikers are deaf?)
He says he's not against OHV use yet his personal website is named "BANORVS"
[ 12-20-2002, 11:58 PM: Message edited by: jhitesma ]
In actually all that last post was is a tradional red herring by BS to avoid the tough questions I threw out. Instead of refusing the facts (which would be too obvious of a lie) he makes up some BS to spew instead. Maybe I should repeat the examples of hypocracy here again:
First he says the TOA study is worthless because it was funded by the ASA now he's saying if the ASA had funded studies we wouldn't be in this mess.
He says bikes can be heard from miles away but it's not safe to hike in the dunes because you might get run over (I guess hikers are deaf?)
He says he's not against OHV use yet his personal website is named "BANORVS"
[ 12-20-2002, 11:58 PM: Message edited by: jhitesma ]
In all of the years I have been going to the desert, there has been only one person that I know of that walks the desert all of the time.
Blue, are you the one with the nickname Barefoot Bobbie?
Blue, are you the one with the nickname Barefoot Bobbie?
hitesma, if you didn't make this website, I can't understand why you make your propaganda-like statements.
this really is a "red herring" and you use it effectively to ignore my answers to your questions.
vor wrote:
When the factory stores go belly up they'll be boarded up too.
[ 02-10-2003, 06:52 PM: Message edited by: Bluesky ]
this really is a "red herring" and you use it effectively to ignore my answers to your questions.
quote:previously posted by me--notice no comment by hites:
First he says the TOA study is worthless because it was funded by the ASA now he's saying if the ASA had funded studies we wouldn't be in this mess.
quote:then this:
If ASA had commissioned a study by a CBD sanctioned biologist, the CBD would have had to abide by its findings.
ANY studies at all by OHV groups made with the intent to monitor OHV impacts on the dunes would have proven good intentions and mitigated the effects of any suit brought against the BLM.
quote:I said bikes can be heard for miles. You supplied the rest and posted it here as if I said it. But you didn't post this to be honest or make a decent attempt to debate the issues. You posted it here in your desire to yell louder than your opponent. Dezfan will most likely chime in and together you can congratulate yourselves that you successfully yelled down the opposition. I don't think that the reasonable readers of this board will be confused. I respect their intelligence. They can tell when you are selling them a bill of goods. They may not say it here, many probably just read but don't post. When your friends are lying to you, maybe they're using you!
He says bikes can be heard from miles away but it's not safe to hike in the dunes because you might get run over
vor wrote:
quote:have you stopped there and seen the products and the prices?
quote:
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Have you been in there and compared prices? It's a total rip-off and waste of space. How does this benfit anyone except the developers who bought sold the land and built the buildings.
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So YOU say it's a total rip of so it must be.
quote:the builders were contracted by the developers. the developers rent the premises to the stores. The stores really have no function except to rip off well-heeled drivers out for a spin on the interstate and can't stand going to a ma and pa place like Hadleys or the Eat Wheel Inn where the dinosaurs are now obscured by an empty out-of-business Carl's Jr.
I guess the builders plan on ripping off the public,
When the factory stores go belly up they'll be boarded up too.
quote:sounds plausible
then they'll claim bankruptcy, and then sell everything at a handy profit...
quote:imagine that!
and then purchass more land and do the same thing?
quote:information is dangerous for those who make their living from short-sighted projects that harm our world in the long run.
Your delusions would be quite entertaining, if they weren't so dangerous.
[ 02-10-2003, 06:52 PM: Message edited by: Bluesky ]
Quoted by Blu,
information is dangerous to those who make their living from short-sighted projects that harm our world in the long run.
By golly I think that is the smartest thing I have seen you post yet.
That has to reply to yourself and the enviro nuts like the danny boy croud. Good job.
information is dangerous to those who make their living from short-sighted projects that harm our world in the long run.
By golly I think that is the smartest thing I have seen you post yet.
That has to reply to yourself and the enviro nuts like the danny boy croud. Good job.
quote:Blu, what does one have to do with the other? Since you also make propaganda-like statements you too might have created this website.
Originally posted by Bluesky:
hitesma, if you didn't make this website, I can't understand why you make your propaganda-like statements.
Then again, I have trouble with simple concepts like
"failure to cover both breasts".
BTW I think it was Terry Whiner that was complaining about getting run over by OHVs in the dunes.
quote:Did that come out of Blu's mouth? He finally admitted that he is SPEWING ideas!
use it to "spew" their own ideas.
quote:Why, didn't the CBD commission a study by a ASA sanctioned biologist! Blu you are a HYPOCRITE! There are no two ways about it! Everything you post you want taken at face value, anything posted by someone else, and it's "can you prove it". If the CBD and the other anti-recreation org's. are really concerned about the species that they rally around do diligently, then why not pay to have their own study done? That way, if the species in question is found not to be endangered, they could move on and not waste our time and resources. I would like to know how much money has been spent by all parties involved in the PMV fiasco! It's obvious that the plant is not in any way endangered. Yet the CBD has spent large sums of money to try and convince everyone it is, the ASA has spent large sums proving them wrong and the BLM and FWS are in the middle spending money needlessly to quell the eco's. This could have all been avoided had the CBD simply funded their own study. Now it's two years later, they have wasted both their time and money as well as ours, and for what?
If ASA had commissioned a study by a CBD sanctioned biologist, the CBD would have had to abide by its findings
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
LIVE FREE OR DIE!
BS is not spewing ideas, he's spewing the same CRAP that he has been for a long while. Sounds like CRAP,looks like CRAP, smells like CRAP. Yep ,its BS spewing off at the mouth again and polluting the air we breathe. ![[Mad]](mad.gif)
Frankly, I'm sick of his sh*t. I'll think I'll run out and buy me a new quad just because I can and because he wouldn't like it. ![[BigCry]](graemlins/bigcry.gif)
Yay!!! Another ATV sold!!
Its apparent that he really doesn't give a damn about anything except wasting bandwidth and time. Instead of fighting his losing battle, why doesn't he do something worthwhile. He dodges every question posed to him and responds with his "cut and paste" sh*t. Enough is enough.
Frankly, I'm sick of his sh*t.
I'll think I'll run out and buy me a new quad just because I can and because he wouldn't like it. Yay!!! Another ATV sold!! Its apparent that he really doesn't give a damn about anything except wasting bandwidth and time. Instead of fighting his losing battle, why doesn't he do something worthwhile. He dodges every question posed to him and responds with his "cut and paste" sh*t. Enough is enough.
quote:When I cut and paste I also provide the URL to the site that hosted the info so you can check it out yourself.
. He dodges every question posed to him and responds with his "cut and paste" sh*t.
By citing my sources I am showing you that I base my opinion on facts or findings made by experts. If this offends you, don't read it. This is an accepted way of discussing issues. If you haven't seen this before, why don't you do some investigating of your own and learn something?
http://www.google.com/
quote:by dezfan
Why, didn't the CBD commission a study by a ASA sanctioned biologist!
Calm down dez!
The CBD didn't have to make any studies as they used BLM's and USFWS's own studies to prove their point that there are species of concern that warrant monitoring. The famous suit of 2000 that temporarily closed areas of Glamis was made because BLM didn't follow its own guidelines for protecting wildlife!
Now ASA comes along and hires a private biologist who makes his count not using the same methods as the previous studies (that wouldn't have shown as much PMV), and doensn't publish his work in a journal to be peer-reviewed.
All I'm saying is if the ASA in good faith wanted to settle this issue, they would have conferred with the plaintiffs (CBD et al)as to what would constitute an acceptible study. Then we all would know and we wouldn't have this finger pointing and disagreement--the issue would be settled and CBD would have to agree that the PMV is doing OK.
Maybe there was a reason that they didn't do it that way...
What do you think?
[ 12-22-2002, 07:25 AM: Message edited by: Bluesky ]
quote:
Why, didn't the CBD commission a study by a ASA sanctioned biologist!
quote:Thats it Blu, SPEW ON!!!!
Maybe there was a reason that they didn't do it that way...
What do you think?
LIVE FREE OR DIE!
BLU 
By Bluser
By Dezfan
By Bluser
Thank you Daniel Patterson and the CBD!
Thanks for nothing
quote:Hey guys I wonder why he didn't post a link to that little bit of propaganda.
Now ASA comes along and hires a private biologist who makes his count not using the same methods as the previous studies (that wouldn't have shown as much PMV), and doensn't publish his work in a journal to be peer-reviewed.
All I'm saying is if the ASA in good faith wanted to settle this issue, they would have conferred with the plaintiffs (CBD et al)as to what would constitute an acceptible study. Then we all would know and we wouldn't have this finger pointing and disagreement--the issue would be settled and CBD would have to agree that the PMV is doing OK.
Maybe there was a reason that they didn't do it that way...
By Dezfan
quote:Dez you are correct. Problem is The CBD isn't really interested in saving the PMV, It's all about the money. Funding their own study would have took far too much time and money, instead It was much faster and cheaper for them so sue the BLM on thier own incompitence rather than scientifically proven facts.
This could have all been avoided had the CBD simply funded their own study. Now it's two years later, they have wasted both their time and money as well as ours, and for what?
By Bluser
quote:See they couldn't prove the PMV was endangered so they found a loophole. Just like this damn Beetle. No proof that it is endangered, just another warrantless Lawsuit that will waste ASA funds and BLM funds (which are essentially our funds also)
The famous suit of 2000 that temporarily closed areas of Glamis was made because BLM didn't follow its own guidelines for protecting wildlife!
Thank you Daniel Patterson and the CBD!
Thanks for nothing
VOR I love man!
Just for the record:
Kurt Leptik created this website. He goes by the name of "Kurt" on the board.
Kurt sold Glamisdunes.com to Slappy last year.
To the best of my knowledge, Jason Hitesman, (Jhitsma) has nothing to do with this website other than providing insightful, entertaining and informative posts!
Vor
Kurt Leptik created this website. He goes by the name of "Kurt" on the board.
Kurt sold Glamisdunes.com to Slappy last year.
To the best of my knowledge, Jason Hitesman, (Jhitsma) has nothing to do with this website other than providing insightful, entertaining and informative posts!
Vor
quote:BREAK OUT THE GREEN MEANIE!!!!!
Originally posted by WFO WR500:
Dont make me break out the Green guy again!
Sorry guys, I've been gone.
Once again, Bluser has his facts wrong. Wow, there's a news flash...........Call Ripley...
![[Grenade]](graemlins/grenade.gif)
Once again, Bluser has his facts wrong. Wow, there's a news flash...........Call Ripley...
quote:While I can'tpredict the future with any certainty, I would say those outlet stores will be there a long time. In fact, they just completed an expansion at the south end of the strip. I have shopped there, I've even worked there at the book store called The Book Warehouse, and can tell you that prices there may not be shockingly low but good deals are easy to find. Parking on any weekend is non exsistent and tour busses are a non stop sight as they pull in, discharge their passengers, and exit to their parking lot.
Originally posted by Bluesky:
[QBDo we as a nation benefit from development such as the "factory outlet mall" near Cabazon? Have you been in there and compared prices? It's a total rip-off and waste of space. How does this benfit anyone except the developers who bought sold the land and built the buildings. In the near future those buildings will be a rotten eyesore with all of the buildings empty--Have you seen the "factory stores" near hiway 14 in Lancaster? 90% empty.
[/QB]
Just for info, Hadleys makes a great cheeseburger lunch and the crazy coyote taco shop North of the strip makes a killer carne taco though they are a bit expensive.
quote:Vor, I know Kurt, but haven't heard or seen him for a few years. You know what he's doing now? Is he still doing the Photo thing?
Originally posted by Voice of Reason:
Just for the record:
Kurt Leptik created this website. He goes by the name of "Kurt" on the board.
Kurt sold Glamisdunes.com to Slappy last year.
To the best of my knowledge, Jason Hitesman, (Jhitsma) has nothing to do with this website other than providing insightful, entertaining and informative posts!
Vor
Last I heard Kurt was promoted to principal or some other administrative position which was what precipitated him selling GD.com. He's still in the area and still goes to the dunes but due to his new job and local politics isn't very visible on-line anymore.
Blue. You *****, shut the &^%$% up. ![[Ninja]](graemlins/ninja.gif)
RoostKing...
RoostKing...
quote:I benefit from it. It's one of the last few Starbucks before Glamis.
Originally posted by Bluesky:
Do we as a nation benefit from development such as the "factory outlet mall" near Cabazon?
The amazing part of bluesky, err, brown eyes, or is it Lorne, post is how easy they are to prove incorrect.
"under Clinton we were paying off the national debt. Under Bush we gave all the surplus back to the rich and now are operating on deficit spending--creating MORE national debt."
Brown eye,I mean Lorne, ever heard of short term bonds? Thats how clinoccio paid off the dept. Or should I say funded the debt. problem is, short term bonds need to be paid off in... get this, a short term. Funny how the term was up when clinoccio's term was also up.
Lets move on...
"maybe that sounds a little confusing. If ASA had commissioned a study by a CBD sanctioned biologist, the CBD would have had to abide by its findings."
Did the CBD use ASA sanctioned biologists? No. Of course not. They didnt even use science. They used an old inaccurate method of guessing the number of plants. The ASA used science, they accually walked the dunes(not even the greens or hikers have done that)counted the plants one by one. Marked their locations on a gps and computer, plotted them, took pictures of them and mapped everything. NOBODY can claim these palnts are not there. I was there, I counted plants one by one for over 10 hours.
Next...
"Now ASA comes along and hires a private biologist who makes his count not using the same methods as the previous studies (that wouldn't have shown as much PMV), and doensn't publish his work in a journal to be peer-reviewed."
I guess i answered this allready... Peer reveiwed, oh ya thats credable. Thats like getting the ok from greenpeice to test out a new fishing hook.
next...
"All I'm saying is if the ASA in good faith wanted to settle this issue, they would have conferred with the plaintiffs (CBD et al)as to what would constitute an acceptible study."
remember the CBD does not use science, nor do they want an accurate number. If the CBD wanted real numbers, they would have counted them themselves as the ASA did. They dont want facts, they want excuses to close public land. Its that simple. Besides,Why would we want to use their methods when science proves them wrong?
Next...
Hey brown eye,opps Lorne, do you know how many plants there are? do you know how many scarrab beetles there are? nether does the CBD, they have NEVER EVER counted either. NOBODY but the ASA funded study has ever counted the PMV. All the CBD has done is found some names, some loopholes and spent millions in taxpayer dollars. Unlike the ASA who spends their own money, the CBD is bilking the public daily.
[ 12-30-2002, 11:11 AM: Message edited by: Tom Simrak ]
"under Clinton we were paying off the national debt. Under Bush we gave all the surplus back to the rich and now are operating on deficit spending--creating MORE national debt."
Brown eye,I mean Lorne, ever heard of short term bonds? Thats how clinoccio paid off the dept. Or should I say funded the debt. problem is, short term bonds need to be paid off in... get this, a short term. Funny how the term was up when clinoccio's term was also up.
Lets move on...
"maybe that sounds a little confusing. If ASA had commissioned a study by a CBD sanctioned biologist, the CBD would have had to abide by its findings."
Did the CBD use ASA sanctioned biologists? No. Of course not. They didnt even use science. They used an old inaccurate method of guessing the number of plants. The ASA used science, they accually walked the dunes(not even the greens or hikers have done that)counted the plants one by one. Marked their locations on a gps and computer, plotted them, took pictures of them and mapped everything. NOBODY can claim these palnts are not there. I was there, I counted plants one by one for over 10 hours.
Next...
"Now ASA comes along and hires a private biologist who makes his count not using the same methods as the previous studies (that wouldn't have shown as much PMV), and doensn't publish his work in a journal to be peer-reviewed."
I guess i answered this allready... Peer reveiwed, oh ya thats credable. Thats like getting the ok from greenpeice to test out a new fishing hook.
next...
"All I'm saying is if the ASA in good faith wanted to settle this issue, they would have conferred with the plaintiffs (CBD et al)as to what would constitute an acceptible study."
remember the CBD does not use science, nor do they want an accurate number. If the CBD wanted real numbers, they would have counted them themselves as the ASA did. They dont want facts, they want excuses to close public land. Its that simple. Besides,Why would we want to use their methods when science proves them wrong?
Next...
Hey brown eye,opps Lorne, do you know how many plants there are? do you know how many scarrab beetles there are? nether does the CBD, they have NEVER EVER counted either. NOBODY but the ASA funded study has ever counted the PMV. All the CBD has done is found some names, some loopholes and spent millions in taxpayer dollars. Unlike the ASA who spends their own money, the CBD is bilking the public daily.
[ 12-30-2002, 11:11 AM: Message edited by: Tom Simrak ]
I certainly must say one thing. Bluesky sure has shown a lot of resilience in his war on crime. I think any other self respecting environmentalist would've bailed by now. I applaud you. That you've stood by all your claims. It's a pity that you don't actually have factual evidence other than what some other webpage is running off at the mouth. Or that you can't come and participate in any clean ups for fear of your safety. The simple fact is that to save this planet we're all just gonna have to kill ourselves in Blue's opinion. I don't see what the difference is between carving out a highway and OHV users other than the fact that it's just something you haven't chosen to protest, that and a million other things you could get behind. Your car pollutes. Your house was made from cut down trees. You likely use many products a day that are in some way harmful to the environment. All this self righteousness is getting you nowhere other than raising ire. It's pointless. We've all spent too much money and enjoy it far too much to possibly change our ways. You're just bordering on harassment. But I am sure you enjoy it. Seem a bit obsessive to me, but I am sure you'll find something to cut and paste that argues otherwise. This meaningless and not to mention endless debate isn't changing anyone's mind. More than likely it's hardening more and more peoples' opinions about "Green, inc." Just stop already. You're doing more damage against your own movement than any of us could possibly do. But if this is just some form of entertainment for you, as I suspect, then keep that mouse clicking. Though I would recommend something more fulfilling than ranting and raving at a buncha people who don't like what you have to say anyways and who aren't going to do anything other than ride that much harder. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Have a happy new year. See you guys at the keg. Peace out late.
I don't see what the difference is between carving out a highway and OHV users other than the fact that it's just something you haven't chosen to protest, that and a million other things you could get behind. Your car pollutes. Your house was made from cut down trees. You likely use many products a day that are in some way harmful to the environment. All this self righteousness is getting you nowhere other than raising ire. It's pointless. We've all spent too much money and enjoy it far too much to possibly change our ways. You're just bordering on harassment. But I am sure you enjoy it. Seem a bit obsessive to me, but I am sure you'll find something to cut and paste that argues otherwise. This meaningless and not to mention endless debate isn't changing anyone's mind. More than likely it's hardening more and more peoples' opinions about "Green, inc." Just stop already. You're doing more damage against your own movement than any of us could possibly do. But if this is just some form of entertainment for you, as I suspect, then keep that mouse clicking. Though I would recommend something more fulfilling than ranting and raving at a buncha people who don't like what you have to say anyways and who aren't going to do anything other than ride that much harder. Have a happy new year. See you guys at the keg.
Peace out late.
quote:factual evidence is compiled and analyzed and written up by biologists and other trained experts and then made available for consideration by land managers and interested members of the public. Is there somethink wrong with viewing as much evidence as possible while thinking about the proper management options? I'm sure there are other sources available about the biological situation at Glamis--the best ones are in print editions only. Anyway, I try to back up my POV with a link to an authoritative study.
It's a pity that you don't actually have factual evidence other than what some other webpage is running off at the mouth.
quote:where did you get this? are you threatening me? are you inviting me? what??
Or that you can't come and participate in any clean ups for fear of your safety.
quote:Can you direct me to where Blu said this? You're not making an effort to understand the reasons behind the public's resistance to off-road recreation. Have you heard of Jeffersonian vs Hamiltonian democracy? If so, what's your preference?
The simple fact is that to save this planet we're all just gonna have to kill ourselves in Blue's opinion.
Should the country be directed by ALL who live here or just by the few who read and are qualified to make decisions?
Think carefully if you choose to answer. Maybe you could discuss this around the keg?
have a safe new year!
[ 01-01-2003, 12:50 AM: Message edited by: Bluesky ]
THIS IS MY FAVORITE COMMENT BY BS
"funny, undeveloped lands must be assessed in an Environmental Impact Statement before development can proceed. When it can be shown that the land has no value as habitat because of previous OHV use that has denuded it of significant vegetation, development can be approved. It's obvious that OHV rec prepares natural areas for development."
SO, IS HE SAYING THAT THE ENTIRE CITY OF LOS ANGLES WAS ONCE OPEN FOR OFF-ROAD USE, AND BECAUSE IT WAS DESTROYED BY THOSE TERRIBLE MACHINES THEY DECIDED TO BUILD A CITY...THAT IS FUNNY.
"funny, undeveloped lands must be assessed in an Environmental Impact Statement before development can proceed. When it can be shown that the land has no value as habitat because of previous OHV use that has denuded it of significant vegetation, development can be approved. It's obvious that OHV rec prepares natural areas for development."
SO, IS HE SAYING THAT THE ENTIRE CITY OF LOS ANGLES WAS ONCE OPEN FOR OFF-ROAD USE, AND BECAUSE IT WAS DESTROYED BY THOSE TERRIBLE MACHINES THEY DECIDED TO BUILD A CITY...THAT IS FUNNY.
Bluesky,
Get a clue, not all undeveloped property has to prepare an EIR or EIS (environmental impact report or environmental impact statement). Sometimes they can be cleared to build with only a negative declaration, mitigated negative declaration, catagorical exemption, simple planning dept. approval, and depending on the project, NO agency review is required (small grading jobs, block walls, flat work, etc...). Maybe you should study up on land development regulations before you make those blatently false statements.
[ 01-02-2003, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: Dunetamer ]
Get a clue, not all undeveloped property has to prepare an EIR or EIS (environmental impact report or environmental impact statement). Sometimes they can be cleared to build with only a negative declaration, mitigated negative declaration, catagorical exemption, simple planning dept. approval, and depending on the project, NO agency review is required (small grading jobs, block walls, flat work, etc...). Maybe you should study up on land development regulations before you make those blatently false statements.
[ 01-02-2003, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: Dunetamer ]
quote:Exactly what the ASA did! What did the CBD or yourself or any other enviro for that matter do to "SAVE" the PMV or prove that it needed saving? Nothing! It is not endangered, if your side would have done a study they would have known this. They could have saved us all alot of time and money! But, They didn't. Why? Because species protection is just a ruse! Land closure and control is what it's really all about, right Blu?
factual evidence is compiled and analyzed and written up by biologists and other trained experts and then made available for consideration
LIVE FREE OR DIE1
As I have hypothesized before, off-road vehicles prepare the land for developers to come in and bulldoze and build. After all, it's no longer usable habitat for rare plants or animals.
go hear to read a report that sounds like it bears out my hypothesis.
http://www.applevalley.org/develop/plannin...may/15/no5.html
"PROJECT SYNOPSIS:
A. General:
"The applicant is requesting Planning Commission review and recommendation of approval for the above referenced applications to develop approximately 240 acres of a 300-acre site at the southeast corner of Dale Evans Parkway and Johnson Road. The project site is in proximity to Interstate Freeway, I-15, Highways 18 and 395 and the Apple Valley Airport is approximately ½ mile southeast of the site. The property is within an isolated, undeveloped area of the Town. The General Plan targets the northern portion of the Town, especially in the vicinity of the airport and near major arterials, as an area appropriate for commercial and/or industrial development.
1. Biology
The project site consists of native soils and vegetation that have been disturbed by livestock grazing and off-road vehicle use. Off-road trails are scattered throughout the site, particularly near Johnson Road. The site has also been disturbed by seasonal grazing of sheep over the past few decades.
Complete field surveys, including focused surveys for desert tortoise, were conducted on April 21 and 22, 2001. Surveys were intended primarily to document presence or absence and relative abundance of desert tortoise in accordance with United States Fish & Wildlife Service (USFWS) guidelines. During these surveys an evaluation of habitat suitability for other special status plant and animal species was made. All plant and animal species seen were recorded in field notes. Based on the thorough nature of these surveys conducted at the optimum time of year, and the better than average rainfall of the season, most special status plant species, including any listed threatened or endangered plants, appear to be absent from the project site. "
go hear to read a report that sounds like it bears out my hypothesis.
http://www.applevalley.org/develop/plannin...may/15/no5.html
"PROJECT SYNOPSIS:
A. General:
"The applicant is requesting Planning Commission review and recommendation of approval for the above referenced applications to develop approximately 240 acres of a 300-acre site at the southeast corner of Dale Evans Parkway and Johnson Road. The project site is in proximity to Interstate Freeway, I-15, Highways 18 and 395 and the Apple Valley Airport is approximately ½ mile southeast of the site. The property is within an isolated, undeveloped area of the Town. The General Plan targets the northern portion of the Town, especially in the vicinity of the airport and near major arterials, as an area appropriate for commercial and/or industrial development.
1. Biology
The project site consists of native soils and vegetation that have been disturbed by livestock grazing and off-road vehicle use. Off-road trails are scattered throughout the site, particularly near Johnson Road. The site has also been disturbed by seasonal grazing of sheep over the past few decades.
Complete field surveys, including focused surveys for desert tortoise, were conducted on April 21 and 22, 2001. Surveys were intended primarily to document presence or absence and relative abundance of desert tortoise in accordance with United States Fish & Wildlife Service (USFWS) guidelines. During these surveys an evaluation of habitat suitability for other special status plant and animal species was made. All plant and animal species seen were recorded in field notes. Based on the thorough nature of these surveys conducted at the optimum time of year, and the better than average rainfall of the season, most special status plant species, including any listed threatened or endangered plants, appear to be absent from the project site. "
So this site is near three major freeways/highways and is bordered by an airport.
Sounds like superb habitat for desert tortoise!
Sounds like superb habitat for desert tortoise!
I really can't take too much of what the troll says seriously but I do have to answer to this statement made by Omnivore:
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
quote:Roadkill is not a tragedy...it's what's for dinner!
How come road kill is not a tragedy worthy of web sites and news letter front pages?
quote:by vor
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
under Clinton we were paying off the national debt. Under Bush we gave all the surplus back to the rich and now are operating on deficit spending--creating MORE national debt.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This outright lie further proves my point. That you want to belittle those who have success and reward those who don't.
Next thing you'll say is that Ronald Regan was the devil.
took me a while to find my sources, but here's your proof that the US is running a budget deficit--spending more than we take in.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=st ory2&cid=68&ncid=68&e=11&u=/nyt/20030116/ts_nyt/bush_aide_sees_deficit_in_2003_of__200_billion://http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...of__200_billion://http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...of__200_billion
Bush Aide Sees Deficit in 2003 of $200 Billion
Thu Jan 16, 3:02 PM ET
By DAVID E. ROSENBAUM and EDMUND L. ANDREWS The New York Times
WASHINGTON, Jan. 15 The White House said today that the federal deficit was likely to exceed $200 billion this fiscal year and probably hit $300 billion next year.
The ballooning deficits the largest ever in dollar terms but smaller relative to the economy than deficits in the 1980's and early 1990's could put President Bush (news - web sites)'s tax plan in peril.
This afternoon, 11 moderate senators five Republicans and six Democrats met to discuss their qualms about the president's proposals and made plans to draft alternative tax legislation.
The group's consensus, a participant said, was that the tax plan was too costly and that its centerpiece, the elimination of individual income taxes on most stock dividends, would not help the economy enough.
Senator Charles E. Grassley, Republican of Iowa, the most influential senator on tax legislation, said in an interview that the president's tax package would probably have to be changed to get it through the Senate.
The deficit forecasts were made by Mitchell E. Daniels Jr., the president's budget director, in answer to questions after a speech at the United States Chamber of Commerce (news - web sites) here. The estimates assume enactment of the tax plan but do not take account of the potential cost of a war with Iraq, which officials have said could be $50 billion or more.
The forecasts are in line with those of many private economists, but this was the first time the administration had acknowledged the magnitude of the expected deficits.
Mr. Daniels did not spell out his exact deficit projections, which will be published in early February as part of the administration's budget for the 2004 fiscal year, which begins on Oct. 1.
But he said the deficit would equal 2 percent or 3 percent of the nation's gross domestic product in the next year or two. With an annual economy of roughly $10 trillion, that would translate to deficits of $200 billion to $300 billion.
Providing additional detail, Mr. Daniels said the president's tax plan would add several "scores of billions" to the deficit in 2003 and about $100 billion to the deficit in 2004.
Coming on top of last year's budget deficit, which was $159 billion, that means the president's tax plan alone could increase the shortfall to $250 billion by 2004 and new spending for domestic security and other priorities could raise the total above $300 billion. The budget Mr. Bush submitted to Congress a year ago forecast a deficit of $80 billion for fiscal year 2003, which ends on Sept. 30, $14 billion for 2004 and surpluses thereafter.
Mr. Daniels suggested today that the budget was not likely to be in surplus in the next 10 years. But he and other administration officials emphasized that the anticipated shortfalls of 2 percent to 3 percent of the nation's gross domestic product were modest in relation to the size of the entire economy.
The deficit reached 6 percent of the economy in the mid-1980's under President Ronald Reagan (news - web sites) and was more than 4.5 percent in the last two years of the administration of President Bush's father.
When Bill Clinton became president in 1993, he raised taxes, the economy boomed and the deficit shrank steadily. From 1998 through 2001 the government ran a surplus.
Then the economy turned sour, taxes were cut and security spending was increased after the terrorist attacks. In the fiscal year 2002, which ended last September, the deficit was $159 billion.
[ 01-19-2003, 06:09 AM: Message edited by: Bluesky ]
?????????????????????? And this has what to do with this thread?
LIVE FREE OR DIE!
I stand corrected!
I guess we should go back to base closures and reducing the military, like Clinton.
You know, it don't take a rocket scientist to realize that there was more money in the 90's because of the idiotic investments in Internet startups. We recently had a market downturn like none in ages.
I don't like deficit spending, but if it wasn't for all the cockamamy programs put in place by your Hero, Clinton, and other Liberal do gooders we might just not be in the posistion we are in.
Take California for example. The IDIOT Governor plans on cutting services like police and fire because the budget can't afford to pay for all the new crap that was put in place when California had money!
Vor
I guess we should go back to base closures and reducing the military, like Clinton.
You know, it don't take a rocket scientist to realize that there was more money in the 90's because of the idiotic investments in Internet startups. We recently had a market downturn like none in ages.
I don't like deficit spending, but if it wasn't for all the cockamamy programs put in place by your Hero, Clinton, and other Liberal do gooders we might just not be in the posistion we are in.
Take California for example. The IDIOT Governor plans on cutting services like police and fire because the budget can't afford to pay for all the new crap that was put in place when California had money!
Vor
quote:spoken like a man!!!!
I stand corrected!
Vor, dont be fooled into thinking that clinton paid off the national debt. ( i know you not that stupid) First he only funded paying off the debt with short term bonds. So he barrowed the money to pay the debt. The problem is those bonds had to be paid when? You guessed it, at the end of his term or the beginning of Bushes term, however you choose to look at it. So in reality, clinton did nothing but barrow money form the people to pay off the debt. The money wasnt just created and the deficet didnt just go away. Allthough to the un-informed puppets, it looked great on paper.
Gov. doofis in Sacramento is a whole other story. I like the way he got the school boards and school union leaders to help vote him in office again, now he cuts their budget and will cost thousands of teacher lay-offs. My wife tells me that they may lose 4-5 teachers at her school alone next year. Did he even sharpen the knofe before he stuck it in?
[ 01-21-2003, 08:27 AM: Message edited by: Tom Simrak ]
Gov. doofis in Sacramento is a whole other story. I like the way he got the school boards and school union leaders to help vote him in office again, now he cuts their budget and will cost thousands of teacher lay-offs. My wife tells me that they may lose 4-5 teachers at her school alone next year. Did he even sharpen the knofe before he stuck it in?
[ 01-21-2003, 08:27 AM: Message edited by: Tom Simrak ]
quote:I provided links to authoritative reports to back up my statement.
So in reality, clinton did nothing but barrow money form the people to pay off the debt.
Can/will you do the same?
thanks
Can I? Probably, will I? Nope. You see people, when you back Lorne into a corner, he stops posting on that topic. Until he answers questions from another post, I will not respond to the troll. Well except when he calls my cell phone and leaves three word messages. He should remember caller ID.
Waiting for answers.
[ 01-21-2003, 09:30 AM: Message edited by: Tom Simrak ]
Waiting for answers.
quote:
Mr.P. Answer the question as it was asked
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OK Blu, in you opinion which of the 3 studies conducted is the most accurate? Please no cut & paste links, I asked for YOUR opinion.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Then try again to answer my last question
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
what was the total number of plants in 1977?
[ 01-21-2003, 09:30 AM: Message edited by: Tom Simrak ]
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