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GlamisDunes.com > Sand Community Issues > Your Environmental Opinion
Poiks
Hope it's okay to post this link. By request of a certain desert fan from Blyth. [Big Grin]

If anyone objects to my posting this here, please let me know and I'll remove it right away. [Eek!]
user posted image
dezfan1
I really hope this doesn't anger anyone. I asked for this map to be posted! In my opinion, it is the most graphic depiction of how much of our desert is already closed to OHV rec. Now lets see Blu cut-n-paste his way around this map! Thanks Poiks! DEZFAN has spoken! [Wink] [Big Grin]

LIVE FREE OR DIE!
Fireballsocal
Poiks, I see no problem what-so-ever with posting this here. It is a great illustration that shows how it really is.
Poiks
I can never gauge quite how strong the anti-ASA sentiment is here. Also, I'm not sure if I was supposed to get the ASA's permission before linking to their site. I'm guessing it's okay, though... [Smile]
JET
I find the map in and of itself objectionable. [Angry Fire]
Poiks
Not me. It warms my heart to think of all the Andrews Dune Scarabs making good use of the land. [Roll Eyes]
Osman
Fantastic Job, It's now my Desktop wallpaper!

Just to keep the fire burnning.

keep up the good work!
mxgirl714
Looks like the same map VOR posted but is more legible.

It was in this post on 12/17/02:
Map and editorial by Vincent J. Brunasso (must see this map)
dezfan1
Still waiting for a certain person to respond to this map. I mean this map really cuts through the rhetoric and gets to the heart of our argument.

LIVE FREE OR DIE!
The Pastor
Jon,
Isn't the small, triangular closure labeled "Perminant" near Gordons Well a closure that was mitigation for the bridge, supposidly closed to protect the "Fringe Toed Lizard"?
And, didn't FWS recently deny the petition to list the "Fringe Toed Lizard"?
So, doesn't it stand to reason that that "perminant" closure should be lifted soon?

[Smile]

Vor
jhitesma
You would think so VoR. But apparantly part of the thinking behind delisting the Lizard was that thanks to closures such as that one enough land has been set aside for the species that it does not need to be listed. If they were to repeal the closures it would open the door for re-listing of the Lizard again.

At least that's how it was explained to me [Frown]
SailAway
quote:
Originally posted by Voice of Reason:
Jon,
Isn't the small, triangular closure labeled "Perminant" near Gordons Well a closure that was mitigation for the bridge, supposidly closed to protect the "Fringe Toed Lizard"?
And, didn't FWS recently deny the petition to list the "Fringe Toed Lizard"?
So, doesn't it stand to reason that that "perminant" closure should be lifted soon?

[Smile]

Vor

Brian, I think you're mixing up your fringe-toed with your flat-tailed lizards [Big Grin]

Several environmental groups petitioned to have the flat-tailed horned lizard listed as endangered or threatened. The FWS denied it, the enviros appealed it, the petition was re-opened and once again the FWS denied it because:

quote:
We have made this determination because threats to the species are not as significant as earlier believed, and current available data do not indicate that the threats to the species and its habitat are likely to endanger the species in the foreseeable future throughout all or a significant portion of its range.
It was a very good decision [Big Grin]

Vicki
The Pastor
Well, isn't it special ... The "Flat-tailed-fringe-toed-horned lizard" isn't going to disapear!

Now, if I could only get a look at one of those "dinasaurs" that Daniel Patterson mentioned!

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/uniontr...5patterson.html
quote:
Stretching northwest more than 40 miles from the Mexican border to the east side of the Salton Sea is a scenic wonderland known as the Algodones Dunes, a.k.a. Imperial Dunes. America's largest sea of sand is a unique place that harbors horned lizards that look like mini-dinosaurs, ancient ironwood woodlands, 8-foot-tall sunflowers, sand food, scarab beetles, and other endangered wildlife – including many species found nowhere else on earth.
[Big Grin]

Vor
dezfan1
Blu finally e-mailed me in regards to ISDRA Closure map. [Eek!] He stated that he isn't sure the map is accurate, but if it is it "looks" like a lot of closures. He also stated that he thought the BLM was the OHV community's hand maiden, but now he thinks differently? [Confused] Props for finally answering a question Blu.

LIVE FREE OR DIE!
The Pastor
OH, it's accurate. It's been meticulously researched and is now a part of the ASA's pamphlets and is used in almost all coorospondance with the authorities.

If you want to REALLY get a good picture of the closures you should see a map of all the OTHER closed areas in California.

A small note, if you look at the open areas in the map and then try to think of the dunes in that area you'll realize that a significant portion of the open area isn't even dunes at all. Both sides of the dune area is large flat sandy desert.

Vor
TysonLB
that was the first thing I thought of when I saw the map....maybe 1/4 of the area is actually dune-able (for lack of better words [Smile] ). I mean, haven't you always wanted to go for a long ride east of the tracks?!?! Change your tires and hang on, ladies and gentlemen. Please.......
jhitesma
One thing to keep in mind. The visitor counts and capacity limits that the CBD wants and the BLM included in the DRAMP that is probably going to be accepted are based on "Primary vehicles" and not actual vehicles in the dunes.

Even worse the CBD settlement that resulted in the current closures states that the BLM must instituite capacity limits if the number of primary vehicles in the dunes on big weekends goes up.

Suddenly the reason those closures are so nasty even though they aren't dunes becomes apparent. Those are prime camping spots that were always filled on big weekends. Now all those "primary vehicles" are forced into the main dune area fuffilling the CBD's requirements to bring in capacity limits. I've been warning people about this for over two years but still no one seems to be concerned over it.

What this means is that even though the number of people in the dunes has stayed the same the past few years the count of people has gone up due to the way the BLM calculates visitors and the closures.

It also shows just how little the lawsuit had to do with it's stated aim of protecting the PMV - since that stuff does not grow in many of the places that were closed and never will!
Bluesky
here's a link to the BLM maps of the recent closures. How do these compare to the map above?

http://www.ca.blm.gov/cdd/pmvclosure_maps_061801.pdf
mxgirl714
quote:
Originally posted by Bluesky:
here's a link to the BLM maps of the recent closures. How do these compare to the map above?

http://www.ca.blm.gov/cdd/pmvclosure_maps_061801.pdf

The BLM map is of the RECENT closures. The one listed above shows all closures over the last 30+ years. That is the comparison
JET
More obfuscation by the troll. [yawn] [Snore]

I do have one question:

quote:
Brian, I think you're mixing up your fringe-toed with your flat-tailed lizards

Once the water is boiling and the skin falls away, how do you tell the difference? Not by taste, I can tell you that!

[ 01-22-2003, 07:54 PM: Message edited by: JET ]
Bluesky
quote:
LOS ANGELES TIMES - Jan 25 2003
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-du...es25jan25.story

THE STATE

State Denies Grant to Help Manage Dunes
Commission accuses U.S. agency of poor management of the Imperial Sand Dunes off-road recreational area. Cuts in services there may result.

By Beth Silver, Special to The Times

SAN DIEGO -- A state commission has refused to continue sharing the cost of operating the Imperial Sand Dunes Recreation Area, saying the federal government has done such a poor job of managing the desert magnet for off-road vehicles that the existence of rare plants and animals is threatened.

On a 4-3 vote, California's Off-Highway Motor Vehicle Recreation Commission this week denied a $1.1-million grant to the U.S. Bureau of Land Management, which oversees the recreation area, part of the 150,000-acre Algodones Dunes.

It was the commission's first refusal in more than 15 years to help pay for maintenance of the desert expanse in the southeastern corner of the state.

"The dunes have now elevated from a local disgrace to a national disgrace, based on the mismanagement there," said Pat Spitler, one of the four commissioners who voted to deny the grant.

Spitler said that besides neglecting environmental concerns, the BLM has failed to limit the number of holiday revelers or curb excessive drinking that has led to violence at nighttime gatherings attended by thousands of off-roaders.

The BLM will ask the state commission to reconsider when the federal agency completes its land management plan, possibly by early summer. The report already is a few months overdue.

In the meantime, the BLM will have to decide where to make cuts in service at the dunes.

Trash cleanup, search and rescue, emergency medical services and park ranger training may all suffer in the recreation area, said a BLM spokeswoman, Jan Bedrosian. The $1.1-million state grant has accounted for about one-sixth of the money used every year to manage the dunes.

The denial of funding may also affect the BLM's efforts to monitor environmental conditions, Bedrosian said. The milk vetch, which grows in the area, is a threatened plant subject to federal protection. The desert area also is home to dozens of rare animals.

Some environmentalists say the BLM's oversight has been a sham. The agency studies the effects of the off-roaders, but never does anything about them, said Daniel Patterson, desert ecologist at the Center for Biological Diversity in Idyllwild.

"It's not like this was some sucker punch out of right field. The commissioners have been telling them they want to see a different approach at the dunes and they didn't do it," Patterson said. "The state just threw up their hands and said, 'BLM, if you want to continue to manage this place like a scene out of a Mad Max movie, fund it yourself.' "

In addition to cutting services, the BLM may also turn to off-roaders to make up for the lack of state funds. Off-roaders already pay $30 annually to use the dunes, or $10 for a week. A fee increase would amount to double or triple taxation to the off-roaders, who also pay a state environmental fee when they register their vehicles, said Don Amador, western representative of the Blue Ribbon Coalition, an off-road group.

Amador said he believes the commission's vote Thursday was politically motivated. Commissioners are still smarting from the Bush administration's plans to open another 50,000 acres of the dunes to off-roaders, he said.

About half the 150,000-acre area, which stretches from the Mexican border to the Chocolate Mountains 40 miles north, currently is closed to off-roading.

About 3 million people visit the dunes every year. Holiday weekends draw as many as 240,000 off-roaders and campers to what has become an increasingly popular and sometimes dangerous spot.

Three people were killed and hundreds were injured, including a park ranger who was run over, during Thanksgiving weekend in 2001.

While the state commission is declining to support the BLM's land management portion, it continues to aid law enforcement at the dunes.

In December, it awarded a $292,000 grant to the BLM and $800,000 to the Imperial County Sheriff's Department for that purpose.

The BLM is not likely to limit the number of off-roaders who can drive their dune buggies, trucks and dirt bikes through the desert sands, as environmentalists would like, Bedrosian said

according to this piece, 1/2 of the dunes remain open to OHV use--is this accurate?
SailAway
The only way to deal with trolls is to limit your reaction to reminding others not to respond to trolls.

When you try to reason with a troll, he wins. When you insult a troll, he wins. When you scream at a troll, he wins. The only thing that trolls can't handle is being ignored.

Vicki
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