*DISCLAIMER* questions, answers, and solid information... no attacks or bashing...

I didn't want to hijack another thread so I'll ask a few more questions here.

I had made a statement about the TRT and then was questioned about who was on it. Fair enough question, this is after all one of the orginizations having a significant impact on what is being done in Glamis. A few of us are just waking up and getting educated on what is facing us and I hope this thread helps those and others do just that.



If I understand this correctly, this is a group on the duners side providing input to the BLM on how user fees are collected and spent. Also, dealing with the implementation of the RAMP. On top of all that, it looks like the TRT is intended to be the comminication link between the public (Joe Duner) and the interest groups that the TRT represents. What groups does the TRT represent?

Here's who is on the TRT:
Jerry Seaver (Chairman) (ASA founder, former President, current executive committee chair)
Larry Jowdy (Vice Chairman) (former ASA board member)
Harold Soens (AMA 38/ Assistant Southern Regional Director CORVA)
Glenn Montgomery (ASA communications committee vice chair)
Bob Ham (lobbyist)
Nicole Nicholas Gilles (U.D.G. President, Brawley Chamber of Commerce Executive Director)
Roy Denner (ASA legal affairs committee vice chair, President of ORBA)
Jim Bramham (ASA vice chairman of the Board of Directors)
Mike Cuff (AMA 38)

Are the interest groups that the TRT represents those that its members are affiliated with? Or do the groups include any/all that have an interest in the ISDRA?

Is it just me, or does there appear to be a significant relationship between the TRT and the ASA? Obviously the ASA is the biggest group out there and has been involved for years, so it is understandable that some of their people will get involved in other things at some point. Active people usually remain active, it's just their nature.

Now, is this relationship a bad thing or a good thing? Do you think that the ASA has too much impact on the TRT? Should they have any impact on the TRT? Is it true that the TRTs website is owned/managed by the ASA and does it even matter? Do you think this relationship helps or hurts the ASAs perception by the community? What about ORBA? What about the UDG?

From an ASA newsletter: December 2004


As stated, the UDG that many of us have questions and concerns about (hopre to get answers thsis weekend) was formed by the relentless efforts of the ASA Chairman of the BoD. The UDGs President, Nicole Gilles, is on the TRT as well.

With the current information we have regarding the UDG; do you think that having the UDG president on the TRT is a good thing or a bad thing? Do you think the local Chambers of Commerce should have an impact on how our user fees are collected and spent or how the RAMP is carried out? along with other TRT functions? How does this impact things like fund matching between the UDG and the BLM? Is this a conflict of interest or does it just make things easier?

There are many questions here and I hope to get real answers to all of them. As time premits I'll clean this thread up and submit it through the appropriate channels.

In the meantime, I can't help but wonder what your perception of these relationships are. I can see how easy it is to connect the dots and be curious about what you've just drawn. I'm wondering what everyone else sees.

It could very well be that only a handful of folks outside the ASA/SDORC/ORBA have even applied to be on the TRT.

At Sand Mountain, we tried to push for a TRT when Fee Demo hit. The RAC decided it wasn't necessary. Now there is no "formal" input mechanism to guide BLM on how to spend.

I would encourage anyone that cares about fees at ISDRA to apply next time there is an opening. A more diverse group on the TRT could be a good thing, but someone has to be willing to serve on this as a volunteer. I think that weeds out lots of candidates. Most people would rather complain from the sidelines rather than stepping up and being committed.

For me the connection is a very real and very personal one. Karl Myers (DUNERS bod) and I attended, not the last TRT meeting but the one prior to the last TRT meeting.

Every time we had something to say, we were treated with incredible rudeness and unprofessional behavior that was unchecked by the Chairman or the Vice Chairman (who often joined in the reprehensible behavior).

This behavior ranged from loud gaffaws to pantomiming (waiving arms, dramatic gestures), snickers, giggles, rolling of the eyes and more.

NONE of that foolishness was conducted by the non ASA-connected attendees and I'm sure all of the visitors were as embarassed and confused as we were.

Although much of the disrespectful behavior was from members of the audience, the TRT Chairman has control of the meeting and certainly should have brought it under control but did not.

The worst offenders were ASA supporters. ASA leaders. The TRT Chairman is Jerry Seaver and the Vice Chair is Larry Jowdy (see above for their affiliations).

Makes it hard to believe all voices will get a fair shake.

Vicki

[edited for clarification]

Here we go once again. I am afraid the moderator of this forum has lost her ability to separate emotion from the equation and is in no position to offer any sort of reasonable mediation for a forum of this nature. This temperment is certainly not conducive to much more than petty bickering and defensive posturing. Now I can appreciate why they call King Glamis the KING.

Hey, if The Pastor wants to delete this he can.

But be careful what you wish for... you might be accused of just wishing something away because you don't like what it says.

The question was asked,


I answered with my perception and specifics as to why.

There is no more "temperment" involved than if someone asked me what I thought of Nissans now that I own one.

The words are only inflammatory because of the picture they paint.

And that can't be helped because it was what it was... wishing it away won't change that.

Vicki

No offense to Doug, but "they" dont call him king, He calls himself king. "They" call him that because thats the name he gave himself...again facts confuse you...
Honestly not a dig on Doug, I hope he doesnt take it that way.



It is not just you. There is a significant relationship between ASA and TRT. just as there is with ASA and UDG. In the past,members of other orgs have tried and were denied representation on the TRT. Why? I dont know.

Is the relationship a bad thing? Not if you like the direction ASA is taking things.

Yes the TRT website is, or at least was owned by ASA. They will have you believe that NO affiliation to ASA is represented on the board yet if you look, th eONLY org that has a link on the TRT board is ASA...coincidence? You decide.

My opinion, ASA, UDG and TRT are the same. Leadership on one is often made up of the same leadership on another...again, coincidence...? You decide...

Dont forget the ASF that never really was...

Hard to forget something I wasn't familiar with So, I'm looking into it right now. American Sand Foundation, correct?

So far haven't found much. The only info I have seen so far is 3 seperate grant requests. One of them does say that the ASA is represented on the TRT though:

from the ISDRA Microphyll Woodlands Study OHV Grant Request HERE


So what is/was the ASF? Was it just a front foundation for the ASA to request grants? Again, not knocking it if that's the case, sometimes it is better to indirectly ask for money.

This is just more proof that I've been out of this stuff for too long. Before today, I've never even heard of the TRT… And they are "supposed" to be the link between myself and the BLM! Ha! Now they be more powerful than the Wizard of OZ but until I find out more, I'll believe it when I see evil flying monkeys come out of my arse.

Zilla

Just to be fair to the trt members, remember their role is "advisory"...the blm can sit there, listen without hearing a word, say "thank you", and then go out and do whatever they want. Which I'm sure happens more than any of us would like to know.

That's kinda what I was getting at with:






Next time there is an opening? How long is the spot on the TRT held? What is the application and appointment process?

I'll agree 100%, a lot of people wouldn't be willing to volunteer on a board such as this.... and some would prefer to sit, watch, and critique... but the ones that would step up have to know the whens, wheres and hows

I will admit to not knowing all the answers. But it was a huge topic of discussion back a few years ago. As i recall, the ASF was formed by ASA as a source for grant requests. On eof the grants requested was to fun the Glamis clean-up. The ASF wanted to have a paid staffer, as I recall it was $40,000 organize the annual clean-up. If my facts and figuers are off, please forgive me, Im going off memory and I could be off.

At some point, the grant request was removed and no further word from ASF...

Not only are they supposed to be our link to the BLM, but any deviation from that channel is discouraged or stopped.

When the business plan was first released, DUNERS had several BLM representatives address small and large groups of people (hardly any DUNERS members, mostly just duning people) to help explain the document and the issues surrounding it. We were encouraged to follow up with questions and suggestions, and we took full advantage. DUNERS put on a flurry of meetings to do what they were asked and received excellent input, not to mention educating the duning community on the specifics of the Plan. It was terrific. People actually started feeling like they had some small amount of control, or at least influence, over what was happening in their dunes.

Then the information pipeline suddenly dried up. Emails went unanswered and confusion grew. We were told that the TRT had become concerned that they were not being used as the pipeline between the duning community and the BLM. We were told that we needed to work through our TRT representatives from then on if we wanted to get or submit information to the BLM regarding the business plan.

Information slowed to a crawl and what had been a great tool for the duning community was suddenly yanked out from underneath them.

That was when we started calling for the change of TRT members that was due three years ago.

Vicki

IIRC, that amount was closer to 10K Tom-I may not be correct either though...

For the record, At one point Chuck Mobley, Vice president of DUNERs and a Brawley resident applied for the open TRT position...he was denied.


Edited to remove an un-needed dig...

A GlamisDunes member also applied but was not chosen, even though letters and emails of support were forwarded.

Vicki

I guess that brings me back to this question.

Looks like $27k

ASF - ISDRA Safety Education CleanUP OHV Grant Request

It's here somewhere. The topic has come up from time to time but not for a while...

I'm sure with a little searching I can find it. I am working on a time-sensitive project right now but will see what I can come up with.

Vicki

Thanks for that link. As I said, I could be wrong, but I think there is more somewhere else. I seem to recall a grant specificly for the organization of the clean-up not operational costs...

Much easier than I expected.

Here's a link to the most recent discussion I could find regarding TRT reform.

http://www.glamisdunes.com/invision/index....showtopic=28795

Vicki

Actually, a member of GlamisDunes.com is a member of the TRT, but, as GlamisDunes.com is not an orginization, (and never will be) that affiliation is not publicised.

LoBuck, has an entire forum to field questions, help inform, and pass on TRT information right here on this board...

TRT Forum - Your Glamis Fees

wow that brings back memories

ASF was one hell of a bad idea, ASF itself, the people that was involved and the whole Grant for the cleanup was just wrong....

I think after not getting the grants (where Friends of Dumont was one of the lead groups to kill the cleanup grant) , ASF was not longer of interest to their own leadership.

is.

You should also know that there was a TRT before there was an ASA.

Quite right Brian.

The TRT Chairman was Jerry Seaver, then and now, right?

And Jerry Seaver, Keith Rosewitz and Vince Brunasso started the ASA.

Vicki

Like I said, the amount to be paid to Kim (i.e the "Safety Education Manager") was closer to $10K ($7K to be exact). The $25 K was the amount of the total grant request for the entire program.

$25,000 for a program that had always cost nothing but BLM space for the day (the BLM did have $3000 in their budget for the cleanup, presumably for salaries of any BLM assistants).

The "entire program" has always consisted of sponsored t-shirts, hot dogs and prizes. And unpaid producers (Project SAND, DUNERS), with volunteers working the event.

And the dune-related businesses took great pride and pleasure in participating in the event, have always donated with pleasure and were rewarded with their logos on the give-away t-shirts.

Vicki

Yes, that is correct, absolutely. Jerry Seaver is one helluva guy and done a great job and I'm proud to say he's my friend.

BTW,

both Jerry and Vince (and several others) will be at the SSSS this year and will be available to answer any and all questions ISDRA. Stop by and talk to them!

I'm not agreeing with the grant request-just trying to get people correct facts as to what it was.

That sums it up ....

..... and knowing the "safety education manager" did not help to get support

Thats not how I remembered it, BUT, the info you are providing certainly seems to be absolutly correct...I guess my memory is the second thing to leave me....

Absolutely.

Vicki

Hozay,great questions man ,

Thre is alot of cross pollination of people and groups that ,represents the ability to work with others .

My view on this is no different that I operate my business and life for that matter . To get anything meaningful done it's all about relationships and partnerships.

Look at my post in another thread ASA has built and been able to maintain multiple partnerships . The UDG /BLM/ISCO/ Legal Coalition/2 seperate lobby Coalitions/Tread Lightly Private Sector such as Weekend Warrior and multiple sand rail mfg companies.

We've made some mistakes u bet . I would just ask you folks to remember there are 2 sides to every story . It is pointless to try to go back and drag historical events up and put everyone through that. In my view it serves no purpose.

Thanks for the reply. That one phrase is an interesting way of putting it. But still a conflict of interest. And the more I read, the worse I think it is.

Don't take this as a knock on anyone in particular, but here's a possible observation based on some volunteer work I used to do at my church. It seemed to be much harder to get someone to do the work than it was to get ideas on how it should be done. Do you suppose that could have been true with these groups...a small pool of qualified people, so multiple hats were worn??

That may well be true for the Nicole from the UDG, since she started on the TRT representing the Chamber of Commerce. While I do not see a direct correlation to ISDRA user fees with the UDG or the Chamber of Commerce, I believe she should be where she is, if for no other reason than to keep her "finger on the pulse" of the duning community. Remove her from that spot and she may be hard-pressed to find that pulse again.

As for the others on the TRT though, it's a generous thought, BeachHead... but there were many choices, so not having enough people raise there hand for this, thus forcing those who wear several hats to take the seats, was really not an issue.

Vicki

Hi everybody. 2 quick notes, I don't have time to reply anymore right now.

My "interest group" is Yuma County. It in my signatyr line below.

Nicole's "interest group" is Economic Interests.

I will try and get back on here later. Didn't want anyone to see me logged in and not replying.


I'll be back...

Regarding "ownership" of the TRT website.

Since I put the site up for them I suppose I can answer this.

The site is the TRT's, all content on the site is owned and managed directly by the TRT.

True it is hosted on the ASA's server but that dosn't mean the ASA owns it anymore than eonet (The ISP that provides hosting for the ASA) owns the ASA's website. The ASA is acting as an ISP in this case much as they do for a number of other groups. The hosting is provided free of charge and with no strings attached - the TRT has their own logins and can do anything they want with their site. ASA volunteers only have access to the ASA stuff just like on any other commercial server that provides hosting for multiple clients.

The setup of the site I donated myself to help the TRT get something going and give them a way to put their own information out without having to go through another org. Previously they had a site provided by Vince through GlamisOnLine.org but it required having Vince perform the updates so it wasn't as autonomous as the TRT wanted it to be.

The domain name was also donated by MGM and the registration info is listed as it is since I perform the administrative duties and the hosting is provided free of charge by the ASA...and I just didn't want my own address on there and the TRT didn't get back to me with an address they wanted listed in time. If the TRT would like someone else listed on the registration I'm more than willing to do so anytime they want.

(BTW - just to set something else straight. GlamisOnLine is Vinces site that is also hosted by the ASA but not "owned" by them. At one time GOL was going to become a part of the ASA's site but Vince decided he's rather keep it separate. The domain name much like the TRT's is also donated by MGM to Vince similar to how MGM donates all the ASA's registrations to them the TRT's to them YumaDuners to us and RRDuners.org to them. We are a direct registrar and get domain names pretty cheap so we don't mind donating those outright to just about any group that is fighting to help keep the dunes open. But GOL is solely maintained by Vince, possibly with help from Kieth Rosewitz, and is their site that they started. The ASA did form in large part due to relationships forged on GOL but the ASA has no editorial control over GOL it is entirely Vince's say what goes on there.)

I find that a bit surprising. I wouldn't have guessed that many people had applied.

It's good to know that there were more volunteers than slots, as often times, there is a "staffing shortage" in this type of thing. Even so, I seem to be under the impression that the blm is the one who selects the trt members. Is that correct?

At least three too many, apparently, as three were turned away.

Vicki

A bit more information could be supplied for this list:

Jerry Seaver (Chairman) (AZ Representative - ASA founder, former President, current executive committee chair)

Larry Jowdy (Vice Chairman) (CA Representative - former ASA board member)

Harold Soens (CA Rep - Calif. Stakeholder Roundtable member, SDORC Predisent, AMA 38/ Assistant Southern Regional Director CORVA)

Glenn Montgomery (Yuma County Representative, ASA communications committee vice chair)

Bob Ham (Imperial County Representative, co-founder of CORVA, past OHV lobbyist)

Nicole Nicholas Gilles (Economic Interest Representative, U.D.G. President, Brawley Chamber of Commerce Executive Director)

Roy Denner (DAC Representative, President of ORBA, ASA legal affairs committee vice chair)

Jim Bramham (CA Rep., ASA vice chairman of the Board of Directors, Past OHMVR Commissioner, Past Cal-4 Wheel President)

Mike Cuff (California Off Highway Vehicle interests, President of Sidewinders Motorsports, AMA 38 member)

There's only so many seats, and if it comes down to multiple people vying for the same seat, I would imagine it comes down to your off-road resume and who you know.

You know I would have loved to see Chuck represent us on the TRT, but I'm guessing he was up against Bob Ham for the Imperial County Seat (?). Pretty tough to stack up against Bob's bio. Whether that is right or wrong, that's hard to say. It would be great to get some new blood representing us, and I applaud Chuck for trying, but the bureacrats don't often look at intangibles.

Yes BLM did select who they appointed.

Before I applied for the Yuma County rep slot, I met with Louie Hirth (of Liberty Motorsports here in Yuma) as he was the sitting member at the time. After hearing him tell me personally that he was not applying, I did with his support.

Thanks Pastor.

There is also one on the ASA BBS. I.S.D.R.A. Technical Review Team / T.R.T.

and don't forget the ISDRA TRT website

It looks like a lot of questions got answered while I was gone tonight. I did answer some in the TRT Forum - Your Glamis Fees also.

You are not the only one. I thank those who serve on the TRT for their time and effort however, I do strongly feel it is a stacked deck. I dont believe the TRT is a fair representation of the duning public. There are many who disagree with various orgs, and as such, can we honestly say they are being represented?
I do believe ALL have the best of intentions, but to the members of the TRT, what is stronger, intentions or agendas? A more diverse make up takes agendas out of the picture...

Where did the rest of the reply from stonehenge go?

Must have been self-moderated. It's not in the "removed" posts and the only moderating I've done is to fix Tom's silly quote problems

Vicki

My intentions and agenda can be found Right Here.

The TRT was first and the ASA was created by the citizen volunteers in the TRT.

Most of the TRT members were there prior to being ASA leaders.

The ASA was started partially due to the TRT members becoming involved and informed with the BLM but not having a way to let the "average duner" now what was going on. Then that snowballed into creating an organization to not only inform but to try to influence what goes on in our behalf.

As the ASA gained credibilty, more and more people who are involved with the TRT process see the value of being a member. These people also become leaders in both the TRT and ASA as they are already involved and informed.

Most involved and informed people that are pro-dune see the value in being an ASA member and being involved. The TRT has one misson and the ASA has another. A lot of the times, both missons overlap.

By the way, I understand TRT members are appointed by the BLM and are not voted in.

The ASA does not have the power to appoint, but the through the hard work of ASA volunteers, the ASA has gained the credibility and respect to influence the BLM.

That is the way our government works and that is why we need organizations like the ASA to protect our access to the dunes. The eco-nut groups have been influencing the government for years, now its our turn. I bet we have better credibility and respect than the eco-nut groups, but we don't have their "war chests". The eco-nuts can buy their influence, but not respect.

The ASA has earned the respect it gets from the government.



Thanks to the hard work by the leaders...