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HozaykwAIRvo
Aug 3 2005, 08:40 AM
from another thread...
QUOTE(HozayKwarvo @ Jul 28 2005, 02:14 PM)
...As far as the mismanagement issues go...  the BLM is accountable to the federal governments "Fraud, Waste & Abuse" policy. Mismanagement falls under that. Anyone not familiar with FW&A that knows of mismanagement by the BLM should take a look at it. Just because decisions were made that we may not like doesn't necessarily make it mismanagement, but if anyone knows of specific incedents... they are accountable.
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We know that the reason that the closures are here (south of the 78) are due to mismanagement by the BLM. There has also been a lot of talk of mismanagement by the BLM and other activities that have lead to negative experiences regarding the ISDRA.

If anyone actually feels that they have legitimate info regarding a goverment activity they should report it to the Fraud, Waste, & Abuse program.

http://www.gao.gov/fraudnet/fraudnet.htm

These goverment agencies are accountable, beleive it or not thumb.gif

*Edit*
Some agencies have their own hotlines to deal with FW&A, the BLM is not one of them. Here's where one would report Fraud Waste & Abuse or mismanagement or lodge a complaint against the BLM:

http://www.oig.doi.gov/ and follow the "Report Wrongdoing Hotline" link on the left side of the page.

Department of the Interior, Office of the Inspector General: Fraud, Waste & Abuse/Complaint hotline 1-800-424-5081

Department of the Interior, Office of the Ispector General: 202-208-5745

rivermobster
Aug 3 2005, 10:19 AM
GOOD FIND!!!!!!

icon_biggrin.gif
HozaykwAIRvo
Sep 15 2005, 01:43 PM
Updated with specific BLM info.

The gentleman I spoke with said that they prefer complaints sent in writing/electronically via the website vs. over the phone but are happy to accept them in any form.
Permagrin
Sep 15 2005, 03:52 PM
Pin it!
HozaykwAIRvo
Sep 15 2005, 03:58 PM
QUOTE(Permagrin @ Sep 15 2005, 03:52 PM)
Pin it!
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Good call! thumb.gif
SailAway
Sep 15 2005, 04:09 PM
Done. tongue.gif
Sandratt
Sep 15 2005, 06:41 PM
interesting
HozaykwAIRvo
Jan 25 2006, 12:56 PM
bump.gif
Oversize valve
Jun 24 2006, 07:04 AM
QUOTE
We know that the reason that the closures are here (south of the 78) are due to mismanagement by the BLM.



We all know????

Or, could it be CBD's continued attempt to close off all of the riding area's in the USA????

Regardless of what the BLM does or doesn't do, the CBD will ALWAYS be there to find a loophole in the system and USE IT to their advantage!!!!!
HozaykwAIRvo
Jun 24 2006, 07:21 AM
The BLM was required to have a documented process in place and address certain key issues. They did not do that and the CBD called them on it. If the BLM had taken care of all of their responsibilities the CBD would not have been able to use that asgainst them/us and in turn get the "temporary" closures put into place.
Oversize valve
Jun 24 2006, 07:52 AM
Personally, I think you're looking for a government agency to blame, look a little deeper and you'll see that regardless of what the BLM (or any govt.) agency did or didn't do has no "REAL" bearing on this case.

The CBD will do ANYTHING necessary to close down riding area's in the US.

The BLM could have jumped through all of the hoops and the CBD would have found some obsure law or reason to file suit.

The more you look the more you'll find. If you still choose to believe your reasoning then nothing will be accomplished. You and others will eventually fall prey to the CBD's strategy.

If you don't believe me, try going to the CBD's web site or speak to Daniel Patterson. He has devoted his life to closing riding area's and he has the financial backing of many notable companies and influential people.

Think outside the box and look at what's really happening.

I have it on good authority (a family acquaintance who's a member of the CBD) that they encourage this kind of banter because it divides us and makes it easier for them to get their way.

While you and others are fighting about who made a mistake, they will flank us and eventually get their way.

I'm not blind to the BLM's shortcomings but regardless of what they do or don't do has no bearing since the CBD has so many cards up their collective sleeves.

Think about it before you place blame.
APHANTOMDUCK
Jun 24 2006, 08:57 AM
Mr. Valve, while you have some valid points - the precise reason we are in the mess we are today is because BLM failed to respond to its planning shortcomings when directly contacted and Notified of the same by CBD et. al.

The Record is very clear that:

* The agency (BLM) has a duty to follow the laws that govern its planning efforts

* BLM did not address the valid legal concerns of the enviro groups in all its programic planning efforts within the California Desert Protection Area

* BLM failed to respond to a legal Notice filed before the current lawsuit

I have always said the BLM, under the Clinton administration, encouraged the lawsuit and simply "rolled over" when presented with the same. Kind of a "friendly lawsuit".

I have a document written by CORVA's well respected law firm of the day outlining the numerous possible defenses BLM could have employed to avert this closure problem we face, but it's likely best a moderator or site administrator contact me so that I may send it via email and they could provide a link for all to read.

Likely this document will provide all some real insight on how BLM and the political structure works.
Oversize valve
Jun 24 2006, 09:17 AM
Mr. Duck,

I concur however, what you and others are avoiding is the fact that regardless of any strategy, defense or legal finagaling, the CBD will get their way...
All I'm saying is change your focus and look at the big screen view of the situation.

If the BLM had answered all the legal concerns, the CBD would just find another area to attack!!!!!! In fact, they are already planning their next strategy if the Piersons Milk Vetch is de-listed.

Quit blaming the BLM, quit blaming other groups of individuals and focus on the CBD. Now is the time to unite, (although it's probably too late) but,,,,don't divide which is what's happening here. The CBD loves it when the group is divided.
APHANTOMDUCK
Jun 24 2006, 09:57 AM
I see clearly what the intentions of CBD are.

I know where they came from... primarily a strategy from the mid-1980 as I was in attendance at the California Wilderness Conference while this stuff was hatched.

And while doing some research, some of the leadership and behind the scenes folks are directly from the Earth First! folks.

I was successful in countering a durative of this group on the Los Padres Nation Forest a few years ago.

The solution as I see it is (given the experience from above) is ensuring BLM and other agencies follow the law. If they don't, challenge them like the Center does.

If the agencies follow the law, the Center's strategy will dissolve.

What are you suggesting here?
Oversize valve
Jun 24 2006, 11:05 AM
QUOTE
If the agencies follow the law, the Center's strategy will dissolve.


Sure, that particular strategy may dissolve but mark my words, as soon as that strategy disolves, they will come up with another more powerful strategy. It's always been that way and it will continue!!!!!

What I'm saying is regardless of the law, the CBD will continue their relentless push to close OHV activity.

It makes no difference what the BLM does or doesn't do.

If we're going to beat them or at least stall them we need to unite and quit trying to place blame. Placing blame solves absolutely NOTHING!!!

Based on what I'm reading, I get the impression that some people thing that by blaming the BLM, this whole thing will go away. I also get the impression that complaining is the only venue that some have regarding the problem. I'm also getting the impression that many people aren't looking at the big picture.

Uniting and fighting is the only answer!!!!
APHANTOMDUCK
Jun 24 2006, 11:09 AM
So what do you see that we are not doing?

I see the OHV community somewhat united, groups are in place and work together reasonable well.

But taking your lead here, if indeed we "unite" and see the "big picture", then what?
Oversize valve
Jun 24 2006, 11:22 AM
That's the age old question, "THEN WHAT"

My concern is that we're only working together """reasonably well""" as you put it.

If we were united, financially and goal oriented, as is our opposition, can you imagine what ground (pun intended) we would gain.
APHANTOMDUCK
Jun 24 2006, 05:58 PM
ASA by design is the lead org dealing with the ISDRA issue. ORBA contributes financially.

This frees up resources for the groups to address other issues.

I think you alread know that - as it has been some time since you posted here and are quite supportive of ASA.

What specifically would you like to see done with the orgs that would implement your vision?
Oversize valve
Jun 25 2006, 04:55 AM
QUOTE("DUCK")
ASA by design is the lead org dealing with the ISDRA issue. ORBA contributes financially.

This frees up resources for the groups to address other issues.

I think you alread know that - as it has been some time since you posted here and are quite supportive of ASA.

What specifically would you like to see done with the orgs that would implement your vision?


What other issues? There's only ONE issue so in my book, dealing with other issues is a waste of time and resources


My answer above answers your last question.


One of the reasons I don't post often is because EVERYTHING is questioned over and over and over if it doesn't fit neatly into a government conspiracy theory.


APHANTOMDUCK
Jun 25 2006, 07:03 AM
QUOTE(Oversize valve @ Jun 25 2006, 04:55 AM)
QUOTE("DUCK")
ASA by design is the lead org dealing with the ISDRA issue. ORBA contributes financially.

This frees up resources for the groups to address other issues.

I think you alread know that - as it has been some time since you posted here and are quite supportive of ASA.

What specifically would you like to see done with the orgs that would implement your vision?


What other issues? There's only ONE issue so in my book, dealing with other issues is a waste of time and resources

This is a big state with lots of OHV issues. While I can agree that the ISDRA issue is rather large and hear what you are saying, your idea is not addressing the "big picture" of OHV access in the State. And to the "waste of time and resources", I could not disagree more.

My answer above answers your last question.

That is a matter of opinion. I for one was looking for specifics, and don't find any here. Just some babble about getting together and seeing the whole picture.

One of the reasons I don't post often is because EVERYTHING is questioned over and over and over if it doesn't fit neatly into a government conspiracy theory.

Everything is questioned here because folks need information to make a decision for themselves. It has nothing to do with you remark of "government conspiracy theory", its because most who post here question those who post what to make an INFORMED decision.

Please consider providing something here with substance.


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SailAway
Jun 25 2006, 07:19 AM
I've been away on vacation for a week (St. Anthonys dunes in Idaho) so I'll admit, I'm playing "catch up."

I've tried reading through all of this a couple of times and keep getting side tracked.

Here are a few of my thoughts...

QUOTE(Oversize valve @ Jun 24 2006, 08:04 AM)
Regardless of what the BLM does or doesn't do, the CBD will ALWAYS be there to find a loophole in the system and USE IT to their advantage!!!!!
[right][snapback]1707323[/snapback][/right]

I couldn't agree more. The CBD is definitely using "the system" to their advantage though so they target weakness.

They found one at the El Centro level.

The fact is, if the BLM had done their job in the first place the weakness that allowed the closures wouldn't have existed. Would there be another? Possibly... but none as "winnable" as this one, obviously, or that trail would have already been picked up by the anti-access groups. The CBD has been trying other closure avenues at the ISDRA (flat-tailed horned lizard, fringe toed lizard, dune scarab beetle) and (so far) they have been unsuccessful.

This is not some sort of conspiracy theory, this is fact, this is history. We can't wish it away but we can make a serious mistake by trying. If we don't remember and keep fresh in our heads the inept operations that brought us to the place we are now, we are doomed to repeat it over and over again.

Vicki
SailAway
Jun 25 2006, 07:24 AM
All that has been said several times here and elsewhere and still we're looking at "now what?"

Unite and fight.

We are all fighting, in one way or another. Each and every organization our there is moving forward in their own way.

Discussing issues and debating history here, at this message board venue, doesn't change that.

Vicki
Noozeyeguy
Jun 25 2006, 10:58 AM
QUOTE(SailAway @ Jun 25 2006, 11:53 AM)
Please... attack the message if you must, but not the writer.

Vicki
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I think your message sucks.

You, I like.

laughing.gif

J/k, welcome back!
SailAway
Jun 25 2006, 11:01 AM
QUOTE(Noozeyeguy @ Jun 25 2006, 11:58 AM)
QUOTE(SailAway @ Jun 25 2006, 11:53 AM)
Please... attack the message if you must, but not the writer.

Vicki
[right][snapback]1708601[/snapback][/right]


I think your message sucks.

You, I like.

laughing.gif

J/k, welcome back!
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afo4.gif right back atcha!

laughing.gif laughing.gif laughing.gif

Vicki
HozaykwAIRvo
Jun 30 2006, 11:06 AM
QUOTE(Oversize valve @ Jun 24 2006, 07:52 AM)
Think about it before you place blame.
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I have, many times... and I still come back to the one FACT in this case: It is the BLM's responsibility, period. It's black and white and stands out perfectly to me.

I agree that the CDB and others WILL continue to use the ESA and any other tool that they can get to attempt to restrict access. That's what they do...

If your bank is robbed and you loose all of your money.. do you blame the robbers for stealing it or the bank for not protecting it dunno.gif IMO, that bank has the obligation and responsibility to protect your money... in the case of the ISDRA the BLM has been assigned the respobsibility to manage that land. THE BLM IS RESPONSIBLE FOR IT ...how can anyone argue this FACT!?

IF the BLM had the management plans in place and had actually fulfilled the requirements assigned to them WE WOULD NOT BE IN THIS BOAT! Can you honestly disagree with that statement? You mean to tell me that if the BLM did EVERYTHING required of them and had all of the documents in place that we'd still have had the temporary closures put into place? NO! We would NOT. How is it then that you can fail to assign blame to the BLM?

I'm not merely looking to place blame and call it a day... I'm looking to place blame and HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE for their mismanagement. Their deriliction of duty is what has lost the public access to their lands... not the CBD. As much as the CBD, Sierra Club and others like to take credit for the loss of access... it's really the government agencies mandated to manage those lands that should be getting the credit for it... how many people would try to rob that bank if the doors to the vault are left wide open and unattended...
HozaykwAIRvo
Jun 30 2006, 11:11 AM
QUOTE(Oversize valve @ Jun 24 2006, 09:17 AM)
Mr. Duck,

I concur however, what you and others are avoiding is the fact that regardless of any strategy, defense or legal finagaling, the CBD will get their way...
All I'm saying is change your focus and look at the big screen view of the situation. 

If the BLM had answered all the legal concerns, the CBD would just find another area to attack!!!!!!  In fact, they are already planning their next strategy if the Piersons Milk Vetch is de-listed.

Quit blaming the BLM, quit blaming other groups of individuals and focus on the CBD.  Now is the time to unite, (although it's probably too late) but,,,,don't divide which is what's happening here.    The CBD loves it when the group is divided.
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THE CBD IS NOT THE PROBLEM! Yes, they'll continue to attack... but it isn't until the government agency managing the land is able to cover their ass and do their jobs that ANY battles will be won!

1) Hold the BLM accountable and FORCE them to do their job!
2) Fix the system that is undeniably broken... the ESA
3) Laugh at the CBD as they waste money and time make futile attempts at attacking what is now a comprehensive and complete management plan adressing all of the issues that it should.
4) Maintain pressure on the BLM and continue to hold them accountable to ensure that they do not get complacent and once again forget to do their job... resulting in additional loss of access to public lands...
HozaykwAIRvo
Jun 30 2006, 11:26 AM
QUOTE(Oversize valve @ Jun 24 2006, 11:05 AM)
QUOTE
If the agencies follow the law, the Center's strategy will dissolve.


Sure, that particular strategy may dissolve but mark my words, as soon as that strategy disolves, they will come up with another more powerful strategy. It's always been that way and it will continue!!!!!

What I'm saying is regardless of the law, the CBD will continue their relentless push to close OHV activity.


Once the BLM can effectively cover their collective asses and actually perform their duties to the full extent and we get the ESA reformed there isn't much for them to do and the relentless push becomes futile.

Sure, there may be other loopholes... but instead of focusing on the CBD that is exploiting the loopholes... why wouldn't you attempt to close those loopholes... and hold those responsible accountable dunno.gif

QUOTE(Oversize valve @ Jun 24 2006, 11:05 AM)
It makes no difference what the BLM does or doesn't do.


shocker.gif I couldn't disagree with this statement more. I truly hope that this was a joke and not a belief.

QUOTE(Oversize valve @ Jun 24 2006, 11:05 AM)
If we're going to beat them or at least stall them we need to unite and quit trying to place blame.    Placing blame solves absolutely NOTHING!!!


Again, I disagree... once you know who to blame then you can start holding them acountable. Too many actions, or lack thereof, have been overlooked for too long. The ISDRA is NOT the BLMs to do with as they see fit... they are a federal agency and are governed by policies and procedures... they have not been held accountable to these guidelines in many cases.

QUOTE(Oversize valve @ Jun 24 2006, 11:05 AM)
Based on what I'm reading, I get the impression that some people thing that by blaming the BLM, this whole thing will go away.  I also get the impression that complaining is the only venue that some have regarding the problem.    I'm also getting the impression that many people aren't looking at the big picture.


Far from it. Blaming the BLM is only the beginning, THEN you hold them accountable! If you were looking at the big picture you'd see that as long as the system is broken and as long as those responsible are not held accountable then "we" will never "win" regardless of how much time and money is devoted to taking swings at the CBD.

QUOTE(Oversize valve @ Jun 24 2006, 11:05 AM)
Uniting and fighting is the only answer!!!!


I agree... but many disagree on who to fight first...
HozaykwAIRvo
Jun 30 2006, 11:30 AM
QUOTE(Oversize valve @ Jun 25 2006, 04:55 AM)
One of the reasons I don't post often is because EVERYTHING is questioned over and over and over if it doesn't fit neatly into a government conspiracy theory.
[right][snapback]1708368[/snapback][/right]


Not sure if this statement was targeted at this thread or not... but this is no conspiracy theory. Fraud, Waste, & Abuse is real and that's why the program is a part of EVERY single federal government agency, from DoT, to DoD, to DoI, etc... it does exist and mismanagement is a part of F, W, & A.
SailAway
Jun 30 2006, 11:40 AM
Excellent points Hozay, one and all.

Welcome back. butter.gif

Vicki
APHANTOMDUCK
Jun 30 2006, 11:54 AM
Notworthy.gif Notworthy.gif Notworthy.gif
Sanduners
Jun 30 2006, 03:39 PM
QUOTE(HozayKwarvo @ Jun 30 2006, 04:11 PM)
THE CBD IS NOT THE PROBLEM! Yes, they'll continue to attack... but it isn't until the government agency managing the land is able to cover their ass and do their jobs that ANY battles will be won!

1) Hold the BLM accountable and FORCE them to do their job!
2) Fix the system that is undeniably broken... the ESA
3) Laugh at the CBD as they waste money and time make futile attempts at attacking what is now a comprehensive and complete management plan adressing all of the issues that it should.
4) Maintain pressure on the BLM and continue to hold them accountable to ensure that they do not get complacent and once again forget to do their job... resulting in additional loss of access to public lands...
[right][snapback]1722288[/snapback][/right]


I too agree with your points, the real issue as I see it, is the "WHO" ??? Who is going to watch over the BLM, keep an eye out for there wrong doings when THEY don't even know what they are suppose to do... do you know when they need to do the next study on a species listed at the dunes? They probably don't either. The ISDRA EIS is 386 pages long, who is going to keep the BLM (El Centro Office) informed of all requirements needed to keep from another valid lawsuit? CBD has a PAID staff to LOOK for items of non-compliance, we don't... but we need to...

I believe the last "Management Plan" for the ISDRA at least (now in the courts) was overseen by many OHV groups and a UNITED comment was sent in regarding it to the BLM. Even that plan the CBD filed a suit on and it is still in THEIR courts... (San Francisco) getting a ream job... whip.gif from the judge... icon_sad.gif
Sanduners
Jun 30 2006, 03:42 PM
Can someone give me one good example of the BLM today doing something to report them under; Fraud, Waste or Abuse? I'd like to know and act upon it...
APHANTOMDUCK
Jun 30 2006, 04:07 PM
QUOTE(Sanduners @ Jun 30 2006, 03:39 PM)

I too agree with your points, the real issue as I see it, is the "WHO" ???  Who is going to watch over the BLM, keep an eye out for there wrong doings when THEY don't even know what they are suppose to do... do you know when they need to do the next study on a species listed at the dunes?  They probably don't either.  The ISDRA EIS is 386 pages long, who is going to keep the BLM (El Centro Office) informed of all requirements needed to keep from another valid lawsuit?  CBD has a PAID staff to LOOK for items of non-compliance, we don't... but we need to...

I believe the last "Management Plan" for the ISDRA at least (now in the courts) was overseen by many OHV groups and a UNITED comment was sent in regarding it to the BLM.  Even that plan the CBD filed a suit on and it is still in THEIR courts... (San Francisco) getting a ream job... whip.gif  from the judge... icon_sad.gif
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Jim, its the age old problem, "PAID Staff". That is what Hubbard is for and to some degree, ORBA has Bill Dart. They are our paid staff.

But then again, didn't Hubbard submit or oversee our "UNITED" comments to the Plan?

And in this is in no way a shot against ANY OHV group, just an observation.
azsandrider
Jun 30 2006, 07:21 PM
How can anyone of us "FORCE" the BLM to do anything without having the resources like the CBD does to have a staff of researchers and lawyers whose ONLY job is to find loopholes to exploit so they can file lawsuits?

To use "FORCE" to make anyone do anything implies having "POWER" to exert the force.

Even though the the OHV community is getting organized, most OHV enthuiasts are apathethic and there is no support for our side from non-OHV enthuiasts. We are a relatively small community and we don't have a lot of power yet, except for the power of persuasion.

The more people who join an OHV group so they can be counted and the more resources that become avaliable to pay for researh staff, more lawyers, and legal fees; along with a greater political presence, we can eventually gain more "POWER" to "FORCE" the issues.
Sanduners
Jul 3 2006, 03:06 AM
QUOTE(APHANTOMDUCK @ Jun 30 2006, 09:07 PM) [snapback]1722839[/snapback]

Jim, its the age old problem, "PAID Staff". That is what Hubbard is for and to some degree, ORBA has Bill Dart. They are our paid staff.

But then again, didn't Hubbard submit or oversee our "UNITED" comments to the Plan?

And in this is in no way a shot against ANY OHV group, just an observation.


Yes, we need MORE paid staff, that is for sure!!!

Yes, I believe it was Hubbard who put the final touches on it. Here is the press release:

Comments: Off-Road Groups Unite to Save Dunes

I was part of those meetings, it doesn't seem that long ago but it was!!!
Heck, look at some of the names, even JET has a quote in there... icon_cool.gif

I wish I knew the answer to getting our OHV organizations filled with paid staff. It takes a LOT of members to join I guess and then you can get the BUSINESSES to join and help pay. I believe that is how the BlueRibbon Coalition and somewhat how ORBA are doing it?
HozaykwAIRvo
Jul 4 2006, 06:58 AM
QUOTE(Sanduners @ Jun 30 2006, 04:42 PM) [snapback]1722783[/snapback]

Can someone give me one good example of the BLM today doing something to report them under; Fraud, Waste or Abuse? I'd like to know and act upon it...


The BLMs illegal implementation and enforcement of the FLERAs "Special Recreation Use" permit would be a good start turby.gif

QUOTE(azsandrider @ Jun 30 2006, 08:21 PM) [snapback]1723076[/snapback]

How can anyone of us "FORCE" the BLM to do anything without having the resources like the CBD does to have a staff of researchers and lawyers whose ONLY job is to find loopholes to exploit so they can file lawsuits?

To use "FORCE" to make anyone do anything implies having "POWER" to exert the force.

Even though the the OHV community is getting organized, most OHV enthuiasts are apathethic and there is no support for our side from non-OHV enthuiasts. We are a relatively small community and we don't have a lot of power yet, except for the power of persuasion.

The more people who join an OHV group so they can be counted and the more resources that become avaliable to pay for researh staff, more lawyers, and legal fees; along with a greater political presence, we can eventually gain more "POWER" to "FORCE" the issues.


Read the title of this thread and click on the links... follow the links and read up on ways to hold government agencies accountable. Contrary to popular belief, the BLM can be held accountable.
Sanduners
Jul 5 2006, 04:56 AM
QUOTE(HozayKwarvo @ Jul 4 2006, 11:58 AM) [snapback]1725923[/snapback]

QUOTE(Sanduners @ Jun 30 2006, 04:42 PM) [snapback]1722783[/snapback]

Can someone give me one good example of the BLM today doing something to report them under; Fraud, Waste or Abuse? I'd like to know and act upon it...


The BLMs illegal implementation and enforcement of the FLERAs "Special Recreation Use" permit would be a good start turby.gif


You sure FLERA is correct? I only get this: http://www.flera.org/ icon_wink.gif

How about FLPMA:

QUOTE
§ 2931.2 What kinds of permits does
BLM issue for recreation-related
uses of public lands?
The regulations in this part establish
permit and fee systems for:
(a) Special Recreation Permits for
commercial use, organized group activities
or events, competitive use, and
for use of special areas; and
(b) Recreation use permits for use of
fee areas such as campgrounds and day
use areas.

§ 2931.3 What are the authorities for
these regulations?
(a) The statutory authorities underlying
the regulations in this part are
the Federal Land Policy and Management
Act, 43 U.S.C. 1701 et seq., and the
Land and Water Conservation Fund
Act, as amended, 16 U.S.C. 460l–6a.
(1) The Federal Land Policy and Management
Act (FLPMA) contains the
Bureau of Land Management’s (BLM’s)
general land use management authority
over the public lands, and establishes
outdoor recreation as one of the
principal uses of those lands (43 U.S.C.
1701(a)(8)). Section 302(b) of FLPMA directs
the Secretary of the Interior to
regulate through permits or other instruments
the use of the public lands,
which includes commercial recreation
use. Section 303 of FLPMA contains
BLM’s authority to enforce the regulations
and impose penalties.

http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/09...43cfr2931.2.pdf

OK, I've applied for and was granted 3 of the Special Recreation Use" permit's for the first 3 Glamis Poker Runs. What is it that they are doing incorrectly?
SailAway
Jul 5 2006, 05:30 AM
Gee Hozay, he's gotta be right... if it's in print it has to be legal. icon_wink.gif

Vicki
HozaykwAIRvo
Jul 5 2006, 08:04 AM
QUOTE(Sanduners @ Jul 5 2006, 05:56 AM) [snapback]1726817[/snapback]

QUOTE(HozayKwarvo @ Jul 4 2006, 11:58 AM) [snapback]1725923[/snapback]

QUOTE(Sanduners @ Jun 30 2006, 04:42 PM) [snapback]1722783[/snapback]

Can someone give me one good example of the BLM today doing something to report them under; Fraud, Waste or Abuse? I'd like to know and act upon it...


The BLMs illegal implementation and enforcement of the FLERAs "Special Recreation Use" permit would be a good start turby.gif


You sure FLERA is correct? I only get this: http://www.flera.org/ icon_wink.gif

How about FLPMA:

QUOTE
§ 2931.2 What kinds of permits does
BLM issue for recreation-related
uses of public lands?
The regulations in this part establish
permit and fee systems for:
(a) Special Recreation Permits for
commercial use, organized group activities
or events, competitive use, and
for use of special areas; and
(b) Recreation use permits for use of
fee areas such as campgrounds and day
use areas.

§ 2931.3 What are the authorities for
these regulations?
(a) The statutory authorities underlying
the regulations in this part are
the Federal Land Policy and Management
Act, 43 U.S.C. 1701 et seq., and the
Land and Water Conservation Fund
Act, as amended, 16 U.S.C. 460l–6a.
(1) The Federal Land Policy and Management
Act (FLPMA) contains the
Bureau of Land Management’s (BLM’s)
general land use management authority
over the public lands, and establishes
outdoor recreation as one of the
principal uses of those lands (43 U.S.C.
1701(a)(8)). Section 302(b) of FLPMA directs
the Secretary of the Interior to
regulate through permits or other instruments
the use of the public lands,
which includes commercial recreation
use. Section 303 of FLPMA contains
BLM’s authority to enforce the regulations
and impose penalties.

http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/09...43cfr2931.2.pdf

OK, I've applied for and was granted 3 of the Special Recreation Use" permit's for the first 3 Glamis Poker Runs. What is it that they are doing incorrectly?


Ok, so I mispelled it, it's the FLREA... I put the "E" in the wrong place...

Are you serious or are you yanking my chain? Surely someone as active and outspoken can't be so misguided... icon_wink.gif The FLREA is what gives the federal agencies the ability and authority to charge the public for access to public lands... with strict provisions. IT IS THE LAW! ... Public Law 108-447 enacted by the 108th congress to be exact.

Start here Google search for Federal Lands Recreation Enhancement Act

Try these FLREA FAQs too

If you really want to read the black and white of it try the entire 658 pages of the consilidated appropriations act ...though the only part of interest here is "Division J: Other Matters, Title VIII Federal Lands Recreation Enhancement Act" which start on page 569 of the document.

The BLM cannot simply decide on their own to charge fees (camping, special use, entrance, or otherwise) to the public... they have to be given that authority, the FLREA is what does that (DEMO before that and others before DEMO). If you read the FLREA you'll see that they are NOT operating legally... this is fact.
HozaykwAIRvo
Jul 5 2006, 08:17 AM
QUOTE(Sanduners @ Jul 5 2006, 05:56 AM) [snapback]1726817[/snapback]

OK, I've applied for and was granted 3 of the Special Recreation Use" permit's for the first 3 Glamis Poker Runs. What is it that they are doing incorrectly?


The $90 pass that you bought last year... the one required to enter or exit the ISDRA... the one required on your primary vehicle... the same one that is required to be in your camp but not in the dunes while you are actually using the OHV area... it was sold to you as a "Special Recreation Use" permit. Read the FLREA, see what legally warrants entrance/exit fees as well as "special recreation" and then let me know what you think.

...are you awake yet??? pirate.gif
Sanduners
Jul 5 2006, 11:54 AM
QUOTE(HozayKwarvo @ Jul 5 2006, 01:17 PM) [snapback]1727193[/snapback]

QUOTE(Sanduners @ Jul 5 2006, 05:56 AM) [snapback]1726817[/snapback]

OK, I've applied for and was granted 3 of the Special Recreation Use" permit's for the first 3 Glamis Poker Runs. What is it that they are doing incorrectly?


The $90 pass that you bought last year... the one required to enter or exit the ISDRA... the one required on your primary vehicle... the same one that is required to be in your camp but not in the dunes while you are actually using the OHV area... it was sold to you as a "Special Recreation Use" permit. Read the FLREA, see what legally warrants entrance/exit fees as well as "special recreation" and then let me know what you think.

...are you awake yet??? pirate.gif


Oh, this part,
QUOTE
(b) Recreation use permits for use of
fee areas such as campgrounds and day
use areas.

the word "Special" that you used had me thinking the other one, sorry about that... (how one little word can f u up...)

OK, I will look into that. But if I remember correctly you're CORRECT, as I recall writing a letter for the Western Slope No-Fee Coalition I belong to, for my Congressperson. At the ISDRA, they don't have all the requirements listed to charge us, like having picnic benches and other stuff on site. I will have to see if I still have that letter...

Thanks.



jhitesma
Jul 5 2006, 03:41 PM
From what I can recall...(and I'm doing this from memory not looking up each code like I normally would since I'm short on time today.)

There is a clause somewhere in the FLREA that does allow a fee for OHV recreation specifically even if none of the other requirements are met. But it's a fee specifically for OHV recreation and NOT an entrance, camping, or other general use fee.

The problem is the BLM is treating it like an entrace fee by requiring anyone who enters the ISDRA to pay it whether or not they are partaking in OHV recration. And in the case of the washroad it could just be someone passing through.

So in the end the current fee is legal in that they are allowed to change for recreation permits for OHV use even if all the other requirements of the FLREA are not met.

But they're NOT allowed to charge it as an entrance fee the way they are now.

Of course that's the same kind of technicality that got the CBD's foot in the door. The big what if is what happens if we do sucessfully sue to get the fee "fixed".

Do they:

a) find some way to only charge for recreation (nearly an impossiblity)

b) get the laws changed to let them charge the way they are now.

c) say oh well, we don't have enough money better shut things down (Remember Clinton?)

d) Say oh well we dont' have enough money but we're the government let's just keep operating in the red spending money we don't have. (At least it could keep things open...not that it's a good choice.)

e) (Possibly the least likely) BLM actually take responsibility for themselves and lobby congress to give them enough money to do the jobs that congress has tasked them with.

f) ....fill in the blanks (not that the BLM will listen to any of them.)


Sanduners
Jul 7 2006, 01:29 AM
OK, Hozay :) You are most correct,,, 1dude.gif

Going to this site here:

http://www.fs.fed.us/recreation/programs/f...egislation.html

I found what appears to be the proof that the BLM should NOT be allowed the authority to charge us at the ISDRA...A FEE. Look at the "majority" ( I put in colors below )

QUOTE
(2) OTHER FEDERAL LAND MANAGEMENT AGENCIES.--Except as limited by subsection (d), the Secretary may charge an expanded amenity recreation fee, either in addition to a standard amenity fee or by itself, at Federal recreational lands and waters under the jurisdiction of the Forest Service, the Bureau of Land Management, or the Bureau of Reclamation, but only for the following facilities or services:

(A) Use of developed campgrounds that provide at least a majority of the following:

(i) Tent or trailer spaces. ( debatable )

(ii) Picnic tables. NOPE

(iii) Drinking water. NOPE

(iv) Access roads. YES (Gecko and Grays Well Roads)

(v) The collection of the fee by an employee or agent of the Federal land management agency. YES

(vi) Reasonable visitor protection. YES

(vii) Refuse containers. YES

(viii) Toilet facilities. YES

(ix) Simple devices for containing a campfire. NOPE

(B) Use of highly developed boat launches with specialized facilities or services such as mechanical or hydraulic boat lifts or facilities, multi-lane paved ramps, paved parking, restrooms and other improvements such as boarding floats, loading ramps, or fish cleaning stations. (N/A)

© Rental of cabins, boats, stock animals, lookouts, historic structures, group day-use or overnight sites, audio tour devices, portable sanitation devices, binoculars or other equipment. (N/A)

(D) Use of hookups for electricity, cable, or sewer. NOPE

(E) Use of sanitary dump stations. NOPE

(F) Participation in an enhanced interpretive program or special tour. NOPE

(G) Use of reservation services. NOPE

(H) Use of transportation services. NOPE

(I) Use of areas where emergency medical or first-aid services are administered from facilities staffed by public employees or employees under a contract or reciprocal agreement with the Federal Government. YES

(J) Use of developed swimming sites that provide at least a majority of the following: (N/A)

(i) Bathhouse with showers and flush toilets.

(ii) Refuse containers.

(iii) Picnic areas.

(iv) Paved parking.

(v) Attendants, including lifeguards.

(vi) Floats encompassing the swimming area.

(vii) Swimming deck.


AND...subsection (d)


QUOTE
(d) Limitations on Recreation Fees.--
(1) PROHIBITION ON FEES FOR CERTAIN ACTIVITIES OR SERVICES.--The Secretary shall not charge any standard amenity recreation fee or expanded amenity recreation fee for Federal recreational lands and waters administered by the Bureau of Land Management, the Forest Service, or the Bureau of Reclamation under this Act for any of the following: (only need ONE right???)

(A) Solely for parking, undesignated parking, or picnicking along roads or trailsides. THEY ARE.

(B) For general access unless specifically authorized under this section. THEY ARE.


© For dispersed areas with low or no investment unless specifically authorized under this section. THEY ARE.


(D) For persons who are driving through, walking through, boating through, horseback riding through, or hiking through Federal recreational lands and waters without using the facilities and services.

(E) For camping at undeveloped sites that do not provide a minimum number of facilities and services as described in subsection (g)(2)(A). THEY ARE.


(F) For use of overlooks or scenic pullouts. THEY ARE.


(G) For travel by private, noncommercial vehicle over any national parkway or any road or highway established as a part of the Federal-aid System, as defined in section 101 of title 23, United States Code, which is commonly used by the public as a means of travel between two places either or both of which are outside any unit or area at which recreation fees are charged under this Act.

(H) For travel by private, noncommercial vehicle, boat, or aircraft over any road or highway, waterway, or airway to any land in which such person has any property right if such land is within any unit or area at which recreation fees are charged under this Act.

(I) For any person who has a right of access for hunting or fishing privileges under a specific provision of law or treaty.

(J) For any person who is engaged in the conduct of official Federal, State, Tribal, or local government business.

(K) For special attention or extra services necessary to meet the needs of the disabled.



Now to file my complaint... icon_cool.gif thanks...
Sanduners
Jul 12 2006, 04:14 AM
Of course, Jason has found other information of what they are REALLY doing... icon_sad.gif

3(h) Special Recreation Permit Fee.--The Secretary may issue a special recreation permit, and charge a special recreation permit fee in connection with the issuance of the permit, for specialized recreation uses of Federal recreational lands and waters, such as group activities, recreation events, motorized recreational vehicle use.

Definition: Section 3(h)

Special Recreation Permit Fees (SRP): SRPs are authorizations which allow specified recreational use of the public lands and related waters. They are issued to:


Control visitor use;


Protect recreational, natural, and cultural resources; and


Provide for the health and safety of visitors.

SRPs are also a mechanism to authorize:


Commercial and vending use;


Competitive events;


Organized group activities and events; and


Individual or group use of special areas.
SailAway
Jul 12 2006, 04:23 AM
There are procedures in place for obtaining a special recreation permit and they aren't followed when purchasing our current passes.

jhitesma
Jul 12 2006, 09:03 AM
QUOTE(Sanduners @ Jul 12 2006, 05:14 AM) [snapback]1739969[/snapback]

Of course, Jason has found other information of what they are REALLY doing... icon_sad.gif



Actually you can thank Hozay for tracking it down. Lots of other good info in the thread I copied it from:
http://www.americansandassociation.org/php...light=flrea+ohv

jhitesma
Jul 12 2006, 09:05 AM
And of course as Vicki pointed out the BLM may be claiming this is a "non-commercial special use permit" but they're not treating it like one and instead are treating it like an entry or use pass which they're not authorized to charge for.

The BLM has assured the TRT that they ran it by their lawyers and are ok.

But remember. They also ran the RAMP past their lawyers way back when and were told it was "ok" ... but somehow they still left in a hole big enough for the CBD to get some "fish in a barrel" shots in at them.

Just because the BLM says what they're doing is legal does not make it so.
SailAway
Jul 12 2006, 09:19 AM
Exactly. We’re talking about the same BLM office who for years has systematically supported a private business at the expense of the duning community and fair trade by quoting rules and regulations that simply did not exist.

Just because they’ve written it a dozen times doesn’t make it fact.

This local office cannot be trusted to be doing anything anywhere near the letter of the law.

Vicki
APHANTOMDUCK
Jul 12 2006, 09:44 AM
QUOTE(jhitesma @ Jul 12 2006, 10:05 AM) [snapback]1740524[/snapback]


The BLM has assured the TRT that they ran it by their lawyers and are ok.

But remember. They also ran the RAMP past their lawyers way back when and were told it was "ok" ... but somehow they still left in a hole big enough for the CBD to get some "fish in a barrel" shots in at them.

Just because the BLM says what they're doing is legal does not make it so.


Amen, Jason... Amen!
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