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SailAway
Behind the scenes, every single day, one organization or the other is fighting to keep the closures in place and add more. And we wonder why the RAMP isn't out yet :?

Once my second cup of coffee kicks in I'll be writing a response to this current load of crap 25rant.gif

http://www.thedesertsun.com/news/stories/l...046056903.shtml

Biologists: Milk vetch, Imperial dunes need more study
Pair urge BLM access decisions be based on science

By Benjamin Spillman
The Desert Sun
February 24th, 2003
More scientific data on just how off-road vehicles affect the unique ecology of the Imperial Sand Dunes would help the government make better decisions about how to manage access to the area, according to scientists familiar with the dunes.

One of the scientists, botanist Arthur Phillips, recently authored a study off-roaders cite as evidence they should have more range on the giant dunes.

The other, former Bureau of Land Management biologist Debbie Sebesta, said she has long favored conducting experiments to study what happens to the Peirson’s milk vetch when it is run over by off-highway vehicles.

Their views represent the disparate opinions among scientists and the dune community as to the role of science in making decisions on how to manage public land at the dunes.

Both said the emotional standoff between environmentalists who want the dunes closed and off-roaders who want total access complicates land management decisions that ought to be based on sound science.

"Everything has gotten so political lately," Sebesta said. "I just don’t know they pay that much attention to the science."

But Phillips, Sebesta and many colleagues disagree over how much more study is warranted at the dunes, a legal and political battleground between off-roaders who flock to the area by the tens of thousands and environmentalists who say the dune buggies destroy species uniquely adapted to the giant waves of sand.

Phillips said the balance between protecting the threatened milk vetch and other native species from harm and preserving the dunes as a popular off-highway-vehicle destination requires compromise.

"Unfortunately, that is kind of a middle road. I don’t think either group is going to be happy with it," said Phillips, a member of the California Native Plant Society who said he usually supports preservation efforts. "It is real easy to get caught up in the emotion of things and forget about the science."

The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service will consider removing the "threatened" tag from the milk vetch. The designation in 1998 led to a 2001 legal settlement in which the BLM agreed to close nearly 50,000 acres of land to off-highway vehicle use. Currently, roughly half of the 134,000-acre region is open to off-highway vehicles.

The Phillips study, commissioned by the American Sand Association, an off-highway vehicle group, concluded the milk vetch population at the dunes is robust.

The ASA cited Phillips’ findings Wednesday after filing a lawsuit to force Fish and Wildlife to make a decision about the "threatened" tag.

Other scientists who support continued closure of the dunes, while not doubting Phillips’ findings, said the ASA study did not ask the right questions.

The study found more than 71,000 plants in spring of 2001.

"Just because there are a lot of plants doesn’t mean they aren’t threatened," said Sebesta, who left the BLM’s El Centro office in 2001 for a job in the Forest Service. "What they need to show is how much actual impact the plants can take from OHVs."

Sebesta said during her time at the dunes, she pushed for more specific studies, to no avail.

But even testing the milk vetch by running it over with vehicles in a controlled setting won’t give government land managers the data they need to control access to the dunes, said biologist Bruce Pavlik, who has conducted similar experiments at Eureka Dunes near Death Valley.

The sporadic distribution of rider visits and the plant’s life cycle make it hard to determine the off-road capacity of the dunes.

"It is difficult to demonstrate just what is going on out there because of the complicated nature of both activities," he said.

Pavlik said combining data about plant population and off-road visitation to build a flexible plan that balances closures with plant population and rider distribution would be difficult.

"I think the science that has been done so far is great. I just don’t think it is enough to really develop a new plan that will be convincing to all sides," he said.

Ileene Anderson, another member of the California Native Plant Society, said it’s clear to her that off-highway vehicles threaten the milk vetch. She points to changes in the vegetation pattern between closed and open areas of the dunes.

"All you have to do is drive down Highway 78," she said of the road that separates open and closed areas in the dunes. "There is a substantial difference in the amount of plant cover."

Anderson said the off-road group behind the Phillips study should have alerted environmentalists to their work. That way, she said, the two groups could have crafted a more thorough report.

The BLM is awaiting the Fish and Wildlife decision on the status of the milk vetch while it considers opening more of the dunes.

BLM spokesman Stephen Razo said the agencies multiple-use mandate means the dune plan will be based on more than the plant’s needs.

Lorey Cachora, a member of the Quechan Indian tribe that has long occupied land near the dunes, said he accepts humans have changed the dunes, but he doesn’t want any more of the land opened to off-highway vehicles.

"There is no sense going out and destroying the rest of the area," Cachora said.

Benjamin Spillman can be reached at 778-4643 or by e-mail at Benjamin.Spillman@thedesertsun.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SailAway
Here's my response...

I am so disturbed by the contents of the recent article “Biologists: Milk vetch, Imperial dunes need more study Pair urge BLM access decisions be based on science” that I’m having a hard time deciding where to begin.

I must say I am pleased to finally see this “emotional standoff” acknowledged in print. It is long past time for everyone to realize this is more an emotional issue and less a matter of science. Bravo.

Ms. Anderson’s suggestion that the “look” of the landscape along Highway 78 is any kind of indicator of the actual condition of the dunes is a prime example of using emotion over science in this fight. This suggestion is not backed up by scientific evidence, merely guesswork. I’ve seen photographs from as much as 30 years ago (long before the recent rise in OHV use and not too long after tanks roamed the sand) that, when compared to photographs taken today, show no measurable difference between the two sides of Highway 78. I have no scientific evidence to support it, but by comparing the two sets of photographs my guess is there has been no OHV impact. Which guess is right? The difference is, OHV proponents do not use their guesswork to further their cause.

Also, Ms. Anderson states that the environmentalists should have been alerted to the Phillips study. She is obviously not aware of the monumental effort it has taken to do exactly that. Those efforts have been continuously thwarted by so-called environmentalists and it was only through an 11th-hour effort that the report was even seen by the Fish and Wildlife Service. The fact is the environmental industry has done everything in its power to keep that data out of the hands of the people who need it the most.

I also must say the mention that this is going to take “compromise” is insulting to those on the losing end of this fight. The OHV community as a whole and duners in particular have been compromising for years with no reward. They’ve compromised their way out of some of the most prime riding areas in the hopes that they could finally relax and enjoy their sport, only to be tapped for more compromise by the next group of environmental extremists.

If anyone is suggesting a compromise regarding the current temporary closures, please keep in mind that although they certainly remind us of the money and power behind the extreme environmental movement, those closures have no place in the dunes. They are a result of a lawsuit, put in place without scientific evidence, and serve as a shining example of manipulating the system. It seems the environmental industry needs to learn what we teach our children; just because you can get away with something doesn’t make it right. Those closures do not belong there.

Finally, I am pleased by Mr. Razo’s declaration that the dune plan will be based on more than the plant’s needs. There must come a time when the needs of the people who rely on the dunes for recreation and the needs of the businesses that rely on the dune visitors to stay alive, are taken into account.

Perhaps if the environmental industry would publish more of the facts and less of the emotional rhetoric and propaganda they so heavily rely upon, this could be so.

Vicki Warren
DUNERS President
www.duners.org
Mike330R
I'm glad your an off-roader Vicki!! icon_biggrin.gif icon_biggrin.gif We wouldn't stand a chance if you were 'green' laughing.gif
stonehenge
Bravo, to our modern "Joan of Arc-Of the Dunes" Bravo!
SailAway
hehehe

Thank you both icon_biggrin.gif

I almost let my temper get ahold of me on that one... sure hope they print it.

By the way, the "Ilene Anderson" mentioned in the article is the same one who is on the California Desert Advisory Council and in fact chaired the DAC. Sad that someone with such misguided disdain for OHVs would have a position over the sport we love.

Oh, and Debbie Sebesta has been after us for a long time. She was part of the whole Tim Salt regime. Gone but not forgotten >:<

Vicki
luvdunin
QUOTE

By the way, the \"Ilene Anderson\" mentioned in the article is the same one who is on the California Desert Advisory Council and in fact chaired the DAC.  Sad that someone with such misguided disdain for OHVs would have a position over the sport we love.


Know of anyone who might run for one of those open seats and give her (and the rest of the green DAC) a run for their money? icon_wink.gif

Julie
Poiks
I submitted a response and tried to post it here, but either I blew it or it got edited for some reason. Oh well....hopefully they'll print it!
SailAway
QUOTE
I submitted a response and tried to post it here, but either I blew it or it got edited for some reason. Oh well....hopefully they'll print it!


I know I didn't edit it and I haven't heard that any else did. I say try it again!

Vicki
Poiks
QUOTE
I know I didn't edit it and I haven't heard that any else did.  I say try it again!


I would if I could, but I didn't save it after I attempted to post it here. I probably clicked "Preview" instead of "Submit" and then forgot to submit it. icon_sad.gif

Anyway, in a nutshell it challenged what's-her-name's assertion that we should do a study of what happens to a PMV when you run it over. That makes about as much sense as studying what happens to a human being when you run it over, and then planning highways based on then result. >:<
SailAway
QUOTE
Know of anyone who might run for one of those open seats and give her (and the rest of the green DAC) a run for their money? icon_wink.gif

Julie


Yeah, I just might. The timing is terrible but...

Vicki
Bluesky
QUOTE
The CBD didn't have to make any studies as they used BLM's and USFWS's own studies to prove their point that there are species of concern that warrant monitoring. The famous suit of 2000 that temporarily closed areas of Glamis was made because BLM didn't follow its own guidelines for protecting wildlife! 

Now ASA comes along and hires a private biologist who makes his count not using the same methods as the previous studies (that wouldn't have shown as much PMV), and doensn't publish his work in a journal to be peer-reviewed. 

All I'm saying is if the ASA in good faith wanted to settle this issue, they would have conferred with the plaintiffs (CBD et al)as to what would constitute an acceptible study. Then we all would know and we wouldn't have this finger pointing and disagreement--the issue would be settled and CBD would have to agree that the PMV is doing OK. 

Maybe there was a reason that they didn't do it that way... 

What do you think?




the above was written over in the environment board last Dec
http://www.glamisdunes.com/phpbb2/viewtopi...?t=4914&start=0


this is what Ileene Anderson said in the above article:




QUOTE
Anderson said the off-road group behind the Phillips study should have alerted environmentalists to their work. That way, she said, the two groups could have crafted a more thorough report.



Seems to make sense.
SailAway
Florid geese walk in the sunset.

Vicki
SailAway
QUOTE
That makes about as much sense as studying what happens to a human being when you run it over, and then planning highways based on then result.  >:<


hehehehe Good point.

Certainly hope they got a "take permit" to perform those studies tsk tsk.

Vicki
Poiks
QUOTE
Florid geese walk in the sunset.


Equally, gum on a speaker is superior to the first Czech-produced model in their repertoire.
jhitesma
Actually the TOA study does touch on what happens when the plants are run-over. The count included the number of plants that appeard to have been impacted by vehicles and mentions specifically that they seem to rebound with little or no ill effects. In fact the only plants they found that they could verify may have been impacted they could only tell by tire marks that hadn't yet been blown away. There was no way they found to tell if a plant had been hit just but studying it they're so resiliant.

I made the following comments on the ASA board about this article earlier:

QUOTE

This name sounds familiar...Debbie Sebesta...wasn't she the biologist who blocked the installation of the weather stations that could have helped the BLM's early PMV studies be more usefull?


and got the following reply:

QUOTE

That and a lot more. I think she was Dannys' mole - somehow, when the closures went up, the CBD had the map the same day. She was also in the dunes with us the day we met with the CBD and negotiated some of the boundaries. She did not appear to me to be in favor of balanced land use.

Here's an article by her on GOL http://www.glamisonline.org/piersons_milkv...lantarticle.asp
Fireballsocal
QUOTE
CODE
The CBD didn't have to make any studies as they used BLM's and USFWS's own studies to prove their point that there are species of concern that warrant monitoring. The famous suit of 2000 that temporarily closed areas of Glamis was made because BLM didn't follow its own guidelines for protecting wildlife!



Now ASA comes along and hires a private biologist who makes his count not using the same methods as the previous studies (that wouldn't have shown as much PMV), and doensn't publish his work in a journal to be peer-reviewed.



All I'm saying is if the ASA in good faith wanted to settle this issue, they would have conferred with the plaintiffs (CBD et al)as to what would constitute an acceptible study. Then we all would know and we wouldn't have this finger pointing and disagreement--the issue would be settled and CBD would have to agree that the PMV is doing OK.



Maybe there was a reason that they didn't do it that way...



What do you think?

[quote]





the above was written over in the environment board last Dec

http://www.glamisdunes.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=4914&start=0





this is what Ileene Anderson said in the above article:









[/quote]Anderson said the off-road group behind the Phillips study should have alerted environmentalists to their work. That way, she said, the two groups could have crafted a more thorough report. [quote]





Seems to make sense.[/quote]


That the ASA study was able to count more of a true count of the milkvetch shows me that the BLM and USFWS method were flawed and as such should have no bearing on anything. If 10,000 are considered thriving and the ASA count shows 10,000 but the BLM/USFWS method only shows 4800, why use the BLM/USFWS method at all? Good science isn't based on junk numbers.
gone
QUOTE
Now ASA comes along and hires a private biologist who makes his count not using the same methods as the previous studies (that wouldn't have shown as much PMV), and doensn't publish his work in a journal to be peer-reviewed. 


Doesn't that stupid quote say it all. Hey guys, use our numbers because yours are accurate...It's no wonder idiots like blue follow this logic.
It's scary to think that the people that we are working against use this logic and believe it. Could you imagine what things would be like if all scientist worked this method. Refusing to believe or accept the fact that new studies could be and are more accurate.
BTW, the TOA study mentioned has been peer-reviewed.
Bluesky
QUOTE
If 10,000 are considered thriving


who says that?

would 10,000 humans in the whole world be considered thriving? How can you use a one-time count to measure ongoing impacts to a species?
QUOTE
BTW, the TOA study mentioned has been peer-reviewed.


please provide particulars. I would like to read the reviews. have you seen them?

QUOTE
It's scary to think that the people that we are working against use this logic and believe it.


is this the same Simrak who logically "proved" in the Environment board that hikers impact the earth's surface to a greater degree that motorized vehicles?
gone
Allthough it has been provided before, here is all the info your close minded arse needs. enjoy.

click here for the link to your info
KingGlamis
Blu, 10,000 of anything is thriving. The fact that too many humans have babies has nothing to do with endangered species.
SailAway
Spiral walking under busy toenails shivers the bookcase.

Vicki
Poiks
Ah, yes Vicki. But certainly you realize that Seger's fortune has been parlayed into dairy Freaknik.
Fireballsocal
10,000 was thrown out as a number. It could be 100, it could be 74,698. The 10,000 has no bearing on anything aside from being used as an example.
Slappy
Vicki, slapptacious piece…

Relations to the number of Milkvetch to off-roaders in this situation is very interesting. Look north of 78 in the restricted area. Are the Milkvetch weeds thriving over there more than they are in the open area? From Slap's understanding (from what many botanists have said) that the competition for water between plants is a major concern in the dunes. It was said that there is an abundance of growth North of 78, but are the Milkvetch among that growth?

Daniel Patterson stated that the large amounts of Milkvetch counted during the study a short time ago was due to rainfall. If so, then the influence and effect from off-roaders is taken out of the equation. But if there wasn’t a large amount of Milkvetch counted, and it was during a drought, would Daniel then say it was because of the lack of rainfall, or would he say it is because of the off-roader? HMM, wonder what the answer would be to that question rollsmile.gif . No matter the outcome, blame will be placed on the OHVers. And isn’t it true that Milkvetch seeds lay dormant for long periods of time till they can be germinated by rainfall?

However, if the number of Milkvetch are declining North of 78 (which has been stated and is a possibility), would it be our fault because we allowed a species to become overrun and extinct without interacting? Or will we say it was just natural selection? The green groups will say natural selection, because that will remove them from all accountability. Although it has been said that transplanting wouldn’t work due to competition for water between species, Slap would like to see it tried first than going off an assumption, but that is another issue.

The following pic was taken near a well-traveled area by the closure over a year ago, and as you can see, there are tracks quite close to the Milkvetch. Slap returned to this spot and found that the Milkvetch thrived, even though there was quite a lot of traffic. Slap does not recommend the idea of running over the Milkvetch for study purposes, it goes against everything we are attempting to do at GD.com; educate, inform, and respect the wildlife of the Algodones Dunes system.

user posted image

Poiks, Slap figured out why your piece wasn’t put up, cuz it just happened to Slap. Slap logged in and attempted to write the above piece (although this one came out a little different) in the post reply window. Then when Slap went to post it, it asked Slap to log in again. And when he did, the entire piece disappeared. OOOOHHH WAS DA SLAPSTER SERIOUSLY MCPISSED. If your piece takes a little time, ya might want to do it somewhere else (word) other than in the reply window.
SailAway
One of the funniest stories I've heard was the one told by a ranger... not long after those horrible closures were put in place but long enough for the new "sand highway" to form around the small central closure, the BLM was taking a group of looky-loos out to show them the closures.

As the BLM agent climbed out of the buggy and started explaining that the PMV colonies were inside the closures, difficult to see from that spot (because the greens felt the overkill of protective space was necessary), someone pointed to his feet.

Much to his surprise, smack dab in the middle of the new sand highway, sadly traveled by MANY vehicles straining to stay out of the closures, was a thriving, healthy, beautiful specimen of PMV, nestled under the toe of his boot. Apparently it had sprung up in spite of the heavy use of the area and the lack of rain at the moment. With surprise in his voice he said "that wasn't here last week."

The greens were not amused.

Vicki
gone
Oh Vicki you know thats not true. Unless you can sight your scource, I will have to call bullsh*t on you. If that is true, it is more proof that our dunes need to be closed to all vehicles. I dont understand why you OHV peop[le keep making this stuff up. Here, let me pull a few quotes out of your story to help make my point.

QUOTE
One of the funniest stories I've heard was the one told by a range

How many of your stories have you kept track of?



QUOTE
As the BLM agent climbed out of the buggy and started explaining that the PMV colonies were inside the closures,


Why didn't the blm guy just drive into the closure, he is allowed to. (This could explain some if not many of the incursions we have seen.)



QUOTE
\"that wasn't here last week.\" 


How does he know this? Did he mark his tracks. He may have just missed it. But it sure showes the closures are working and should be extended to a larger area.

(The above comments are that of a complete fool and should not be taken for that of a person with more than a 2nd grade education.)


the moss is shinning on the butterflies pencil.
SailAway
hehehehe

You're right, I must be more careful about spreading my nonsense laughing.gif

Vicki
dezfan1
QUOTE
would 10,000 humans in the whole world be considered thriving? How can you use a one-time count to measure ongoing impacts to a species?


>:< >:< TROLL! >:< >:<

The Blusky was darkened by the clouds of judgment? :roll2:

LIVE FREE OR DIE!
Poiks
This item was posted on the desert sun today. I find it strange that they didn't print any pro-OHV responses to the last piece (top of the thread).

http://www.thedesertsun.com/news/stories/o...046745729.shtml
QUOTE
Land at risk

I agree in part with your Valentine’s Day (Feb. 14) editorial celebrating the additional 62,000 acres preserved in the California desert for conservation purposes.

However, I have to worry how well the Bureau of Land Management will do protecting these pristine acres when they have failed so miserably protecting just a few acres only a couple miles from their Palm Springs office. I am talking about the continued abuse of the dunes area.

Perhaps the BLM is not entirely to blame. The Bush administration along with Interior Secretary Gale Norton seem hell-bent on eliminating as many environmental protections as they possibly can on public lands and reducing the budgets of such agencies as the BLM.

Randy Daniels

Cathedral City
Poiks
QUOTE
This item was posted on the desert sun today. I find it strange that they didn't print any pro-OHV responses to the last piece (top of the thread).


I went back to the Desert Sun's site today, and noticed that they don't accept opinions from outside their circulation area.
Bansh88
$50 bucks says that Cachora guy would wipe out all the PMV and Dunes if someone let his tribe plop a casino down. :evil:
SAL
[quote]Oh Vicki you know thats not true. Unless you can sight your scource, I will have to call bullsh*t on you. If that is true, it is more proof that our dunes need to be closed to all vehicles. I dont understand why you OHV peop[le keep making this stuff up. Here, let me pull a few quotes out of your story to help make my point.

[quote]One of the funniest stories I've heard was the one told by a range[/quote]
How many of your stories have you kept track of?



[quote]As the BLM agent climbed out of the buggy and started explaining that the PMV colonies were inside the closures,[/quote]


Why didn't the blm guy just drive into the closure, he is allowed to. (This could explain some if not many of the incursions we have seen.)



[quote]"that wasn't here last week."
[/quote]

How does he know this? Did he mark his tracks. He may have just missed it. But it sure showes the closures are working and should be extended to a larger area.

(The above comments are that of a complete fool and should not be taken for that of a person with more than a 2nd grade education.)


the moss is shinning on the butterflies pencil.[/quote]

Dude, you need to learn how to spell. It's "cite" your "source", not "sight" your "scource".

Since when does "shows" have an "e" in it? Are you trying to bring back old English?

I couldn't resist
SailAway
[quote]I couldn't resist[/quote]

And you SHOULDN'T resist biggrin.gif

Tom Simrak is a friend (and a BOD member of DUNERS) and he sure likes to give me grief!

'bout time someone was giving it back laugh.gif

Vicki
SAL
tongue.gif tongue.gif
SHIPPINGBIZ
blu, the street lights are on,,, time to go home.... your such a dick
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