had the new [used] car out in glamis this weekend for the first time. it is a 2-seat funco, rear engine [turbo sub] , very light. the car is fast enough for me, handles great.
the problem is, when i shoot up a steep face with no run in, and have to gas the crap out of it, the front end is so light i can't steer.
i believe the car had turning brakes on it originally, the previous owner took them off. he said he thought was too hard on the trans.
i think i'd rather take the chance on screwing up the trans then not being in control.
so what do you guys think ? whats the best setup ? how hard is it on the trans ?
btw, it has an 002 trans with weddle gears and rear discs only.
anyone that can hook me up with a deal, feel free to chime in. thanks guys. e
Full Version: Turning Brakes ?
QUOTE(etc @ Nov 1 2005, 11:38 PM)
had the new [used] car out in glamis this weekend for the first time. it is a 2-seat funco, rear engine [turbo sub] , very light. the car is fast enough for me, handles great.
the problem is, when i shoot up a steep face with no run in, and have to gas the crap out of it, the front end is so light i can't steer.
i believe the car had turning brakes on it originally, the previous owner took them off. he said he thought was too hard on the trans.
i think i'd rather take the chance on screwing up the trans then not being in control.
so what do you guys think ? whats the best setup ? how hard is it on the trans ?
btw, it has an 002 trans with weddle gears and rear discs only.
anyone that can hook me up with a deal, feel free to chime in. thanks guys. e
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the problem is, when i shoot up a steep face with no run in, and have to gas the crap out of it, the front end is so light i can't steer.
i believe the car had turning brakes on it originally, the previous owner took them off. he said he thought was too hard on the trans.
i think i'd rather take the chance on screwing up the trans then not being in control.
so what do you guys think ? whats the best setup ? how hard is it on the trans ?
btw, it has an 002 trans with weddle gears and rear discs only.
anyone that can hook me up with a deal, feel free to chime in. thanks guys. e
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I think it's mostly a myth that turning brakes are hard on the trans. I know guys like Fasterdaddy and Flashpoint that used the crap out of their turning brakes and never had trans issues. I say go for it and install them.
The spider gears in the ring gear carrier is what gets used when stopping one wheel with a turning break. There's no significant stress on the trans gears, that's a myth. If you have a super-diff (4 spider gears) in a heavy duty aftermarket carrier (yours likely does) you will be fine. I have never heard of someone breaking spider gears. The stress on the spider gears doesn't even come close the stress you're putting on the trans gears of that 091 blasting up a hill at full throttle.
If you're running more than 10lbs of boost on that Subie motor, especially if it's a 2.5L, you need to go easy on that 091 as much as possible to make it last. Generally speaking 091's are good for up to around 300HP (2.5L subie at ~10lbs boost). The closer you get to 300HP the shorter the life of the trans is. If you're running a 2.0L at no more than 15lbs boost, you should be OK.
The trans life has a lot to do with your driving/shifting/jumping habits too, but the usage of a turning break isn't a problem.
Turning brakes are good to have. They're also fun.
Install one, and don't be afraid of using it. 
If you're running more than 10lbs of boost on that Subie motor, especially if it's a 2.5L, you need to go easy on that 091 as much as possible to make it last. Generally speaking 091's are good for up to around 300HP (2.5L subie at ~10lbs boost). The closer you get to 300HP the shorter the life of the trans is. If you're running a 2.0L at no more than 15lbs boost, you should be OK.
The trans life has a lot to do with your driving/shifting/jumping habits too, but the usage of a turning break isn't a problem.
Turning brakes are good to have. They're also fun.
Install one, and don't be afraid of using it.
QUOTE(seaduner @ Nov 2 2005, 12:48 AM)
The spider gears in the ring gear carrier is what gets used when stopping one wheel with a turning break. There's no significant stress on the trans gears, that's a myth. If you have a super-diff (4 spider gears) in a heavy duty aftermarket carrier (yours likely does) you will be fine. I have never heard of someone breaking spider gears. The stress on the spider gears doesn't even come close the stress you're putting on the trans gears of that 091 blasting up a hill at full throttle.
If you're running more than 10lbs of boost on that Subie motor, especially if it's a 2.5L, you need to go easy on that 091 as much as possible to make it last. Generally speaking 091's are good for up to around 300HP (2.5L subie at ~10lbs boost). The closer you get to 300HP the shorter the life of the trans is. If you're running a 2.0L at no more than 15lbs boost, you should be OK.
The trans life has a lot to do with your driving/shifting/jumping habits too, but the usage of a turning break isn't a problem.
Turning brakes are good to have. They're also fun. Install one, and don't be afraid of using it.
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If you're running more than 10lbs of boost on that Subie motor, especially if it's a 2.5L, you need to go easy on that 091 as much as possible to make it last. Generally speaking 091's are good for up to around 300HP (2.5L subie at ~10lbs boost). The closer you get to 300HP the shorter the life of the trans is. If you're running a 2.0L at no more than 15lbs boost, you should be OK.
The trans life has a lot to do with your driving/shifting/jumping habits too, but the usage of a turning break isn't a problem.
Turning brakes are good to have. They're also fun.
Install one, and don't be afraid of using it. [right][snapback]1255183[/snapback][/right]
Great advice Seaduner. But just one small correction. He said he has an 002 trans, not an 091.
actually kg, he's right i have a bus trans. i'm not sure where 002 came from. he must be psychic.
it's a 2.2 n/a motor with a turbo, supposed to in the neighborhood of 265 hp.
i'm new to rails, i'm thinking a push/pull might be better. any opinions ?
can't find much info on them, any good resources ? what am i going to need besides the lever ? anyone have any pics of how they are hooked up ?
thanks, sorry about the bad info. e
it's a 2.2 n/a motor with a turbo, supposed to in the neighborhood of 265 hp.
i'm new to rails, i'm thinking a push/pull might be better. any opinions ?
can't find much info on them, any good resources ? what am i going to need besides the lever ? anyone have any pics of how they are hooked up ?
thanks, sorry about the bad info. e
QUOTE(etc @ Nov 2 2005, 01:27 AM)
actually kg, he's right i have a bus trans. i'm not sure where 002 came from. he must be psychic.
it's a 2.2 n/a motor with a turbo, supposed to in the neighborhood of 265 hp.
i'm new to rails, i'm thinking a push/pull might be better. any opinions ?
can't find much info on them, any good resources ? what am i going to need besides the lever ? anyone have any pics of how they are hooked up ?
thanks, sorry about the bad info. e
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it's a 2.2 n/a motor with a turbo, supposed to in the neighborhood of 265 hp.
i'm new to rails, i'm thinking a push/pull might be better. any opinions ?
can't find much info on them, any good resources ? what am i going to need besides the lever ? anyone have any pics of how they are hooked up ?
thanks, sorry about the bad info. e
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etc, both the 002 and 091 are considered Bus trannies. The 002 has three ribs on top of the trans case, the 091 has 6 ribs. The 091 is stronger.
As for opinions, that is up to you on if you go with a single handle or dual handle turning brake. I have used both and like them both. I use a single handle and like it. But some people prefer the dual handle because it is a left/right operation, not a forward/back operation (which can take longer to get used to, but once you are used to it you don't even have to think about it, your arm/hand just knows which way to push or pull).
like i said i am new to rails, it's an 091. the push/pull seems easier to me.
where would you go to get a setup ?
where does the line from the lever come into the system, at the proportioning block ? or does it t into each line ?
where would you go to get a setup ?
where does the line from the lever come into the system, at the proportioning block ? or does it t into each line ?
You will run a line from your master cylinder, to the turning brake. From the turning brake, you will go out to each of the rear brakes (the turning brake has 2 outlets). You will have to decide which way you want to be right and left. I prefer right to be forward, and left to be backward, so that as you lean with the car, the natural force does not make you pull harder than desired. For example, if right is backwards, as you turn right, you have a tendancy to pull harder, and turn to sharp! I hope that helps!
I have not had cutting brakes in a car for years, but when I did run them, I preferred a single handle unit, mounted on the left side of my seat. Personally I do not care for the 2-handle kind. A single push-pull handle is kinda fool proof once you get the feel of it.
Anyway, it is all personal preference. My choice of manufactures is CNC.
CNC's website
Anyway, it is all personal preference. My choice of manufactures is CNC.
CNC's website
I was possibly thinking of the system that is controlled by steering wheel input. Does anyone have any experience with this system?
I have heard that it is a good idea to tap the foot brake after using the turning brakes to ensure the turning brake releases. Can someone verify this as fact or fiction.
I was duning with some folks a couple weeks ago and one of the guys used his turning brakes on a regular basis. I don't think he normally taps the foot brake after using the turning brake. The turning brake did not fully disengage for some reason at some point and since he was running a lightweight car with a V8 in it he said he couldn't feel the drag. When we made a stop his brakes had flames coming off them. Was this a coincidence or could tapping the foot brake have prevented this?
I was duning with some folks a couple weeks ago and one of the guys used his turning brakes on a regular basis. I don't think he normally taps the foot brake after using the turning brake. The turning brake did not fully disengage for some reason at some point and since he was running a lightweight car with a V8 in it he said he couldn't feel the drag. When we made a stop his brakes had flames coming off them. Was this a coincidence or could tapping the foot brake have prevented this?
Sounds like he had some crud jamming things up. Tapping the brake pedal would help if the crud was inside the cutting brake cylinders (possibly putting pressure on the check valve or dislodging a booger in the fluid).
QUOTE(SandCrew1 @ Nov 2 2005, 01:05 PM)
I have heard that it is a good idea to tap the foot brake after using the turning brakes to ensure the turning brake releases. Can someone verify this as fact or fiction.
I was duning with some folks a couple weeks ago and one of the guys used his turning brakes on a regular basis. I don't think he normally taps the foot brake after using the turning brake. The turning brake did not fully disengage for some reason at some point and since he was running a lightweight car with a V8 in it he said he couldn't feel the drag. When we made a stop his brakes had flames coming off them. Was this a coincidence or could tapping the foot brake have prevented this?
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I was duning with some folks a couple weeks ago and one of the guys used his turning brakes on a regular basis. I don't think he normally taps the foot brake after using the turning brake. The turning brake did not fully disengage for some reason at some point and since he was running a lightweight car with a V8 in it he said he couldn't feel the drag. When we made a stop his brakes had flames coming off them. Was this a coincidence or could tapping the foot brake have prevented this?
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That same thing happen to my brother. The turning brake was brand new from Neils, he sent it back to them and they fix the problem, but after that he was didnt want to use them.
2dasand- yes that helps, don't have the car here to look at. but that makes sense and sounds simple. any special procedure to bleed ?
ocean1- i've seen a few pics with the handle on the left. why ? is it in the way on the right ? seems like alot of juggling if you need to shift in a hurry. i can see bumping the lever with you elbow.
racertim23- i read the info on the sandbrake, sounds interesting, sounds more complicated and expensive too. not real crazy about the idea of having to turn harder to increase the braking effect. good idea, just think i'd rather have a lever to articulate as i see fit.
sandcrew- sounds like the lever was'nt returning to center. does anyone know if any brand is more prone to this ?
guess i'll have to go find someplace that has them and check out mounting options, that's just another thing that sucks about storing your rail away from your house.
ocean1- i've seen a few pics with the handle on the left. why ? is it in the way on the right ? seems like alot of juggling if you need to shift in a hurry. i can see bumping the lever with you elbow.
racertim23- i read the info on the sandbrake, sounds interesting, sounds more complicated and expensive too. not real crazy about the idea of having to turn harder to increase the braking effect. good idea, just think i'd rather have a lever to articulate as i see fit.
sandcrew- sounds like the lever was'nt returning to center. does anyone know if any brand is more prone to this ?
guess i'll have to go find someplace that has them and check out mounting options, that's just another thing that sucks about storing your rail away from your house.
QUOTE(etc @ Nov 2 2005, 12:27 AM)
can't find much info on them, any good resources ? what am i going to need besides the lever ? anyone have any pics of how they are hooked up ?
thanks, sorry about the bad info. e
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If you have space between the seats (which I think you do) you should mount the turning brake there. Typically Funco's have a turning brake mount between the seats specifically for the up-down type of CNC turning brake, as show in this webpage. You can buy the CNC brake at Kartek or McKenzies, they both carry them, or buy it from Funco in Rialto. Print the picture and show them what you want. Measure the mounting holes in your car and take those measurements with you to confirm the footprint is identical to what Funco has for the mount.
Funco's standard hookup direction in their turn-key cars operated like this:
When you push down it turns left, pulling up it turns the car right. This means the bottom cylinder brake line of the turning brake goes to the left rear wheel, the upper cylinder goes to the right rear wheel.
This is purposely plumbed with these directions to assist the driver, leaning the body in the natural direction the car pitches you to help add more brakes in that direction. This helps when you learn to "dice it up" in the sand with buddies. As stated, it all depends on what you learn with and after a while it becomes second nature.
BTW, this is opposite of what 2dasand suggests, it just depends on which way you learn.
Last thought.... make sure you have a 2lb pressure valve in-line, between your foot master cylinder and the brake line. This keeps a tiny bit of pressure in the lines when you let off the brakes so the turning brakes don't have such a long through on the lever. It doesn't affect your brake pad wear hardly at all. My pads lasted 3 seasons, or 85 days of duning in a 4 seater Funco Gen 3. Yours should last even longer with a 2 seater, which is lighter.
I bet that's a fun car you have. See you at the regatta, right? This weekend!
I have a 5 seater Funco SSE (bought from FasterDaddy mentioned above) and use my turning brake pretty regularly. It's fun to use in normal rides and strategic to use when a quad or bike is leading and not picking good buggy lines. As most Funcos, I use the push/pull type and like it on the right side. Allows moving the right arm between the shifter and brakes pretty quickly.
QUOTE(MrBuckwheat @ Nov 2 2005, 11:27 PM)
I have a 5 seater Funco SSE (bought from FasterDaddy mentioned above) and use my turning brake pretty regularly. It's fun to use in normal rides and strategic to use when a quad or bike is leading and not picking good buggy lines. As most Funcos, I use the push/pull type and like it on the right side. Allows moving the right arm between the shifter and brakes pretty quickly.
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do you have any interior shots so i can see how you're setup ?
i was thinking on the right, to the right of the shifter. out of the way but still within easy reach.
ETC, I forgot to tell you that after I swapped out the douglas wheels for the bogart wheels the car started to push pretty good when I was in the throttle. Well what happened was that when we ordered the new wheels I accidentaly bought the narrow front wheels instead of getting the wider one's like I had with the dougles wheels. I assure you that if you sell/trade your bogart fronts for the wider ones you will not need any turning brakes. Turning brakes are evil and I will never have them on anything... I sold the old wheels to Scotty Straub, maybe he will swap you the old front for the bogarts? Anyways, I would try the wheels first before I put anymore stress on that 091, it's got the best parts available in it, but I still would not try to find the break point with turning brakes. Good luck and call me sometime if you need to know anything more on the ride.
BTW, the old turning brakes that were on it when I got it were mounted on those tabs between the seats, I can look and see if I still have the custom braket lying around somewhere.
What kind of tires do you have?
I switched from implements to razors and it made all the difference in the world.
I switched from implements to razors and it made all the difference in the world.
It has the razors, but the new wheels made them kinda skinny and under power they dance on top, with the old wheels they sat wider and turned much much better.
I actually like the way Chummins are set up in his car.. Dual lever between the seats but at an angle so there is no bumping them w/ your elbo and out of the way of the shifter... pretty neat setup if you ask me.. im sure the fish will chime in any time...
QUOTE(Sandfreakintastik @ Nov 3 2005, 11:46 AM)
BTW, the old turning brakes that were on it when I got it were mounted on those tabs between the seats, I can look and see if I still have the custom braket lying around somewhere.
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what's up t, i intended to get in touch with you before last weekend. unfortunatly i was trying to fix stuff till the minute i left, then most off the way through the trip.
of course i want any spare parts you have that you can't use on your new ride. i still have that cable for you, oh and a groovy sticker. did'nt you say you had a manual for the engine and trans ?
the car handles pretty well under normal conditions. it does push under hard accel but not too bad. the problem is most apparent shooting hills, most of the weight is in the back. i don't have much experience with these vehicles, but unless the rims weigh a hundred pounds apiece i don't think it's going to help much.
i don't really think the brakes are something i'd use all the time, but it would be nice to have the option to turn while the front end is mostly off the ground. for a couple hundred bucks i think it's worth having the extra control.
looks like our next trip will be t-day, tue night - sat night. let me know if you'll be around.
btw, john said he'd fix the header but i'd have to pay for recoat. seemed pointless so i fixed it myself. put grease zerks in the pivots and grooved the bearings, lot less squeeky now. coated the turbo, got the seats where i want them, panel is coated, does'nt match really well, probably should have listened to you and went with your guy. oh well, as always a work in progress.
i can tell you one thing for sure, i ride a quad a hell of a lot better than i drive the car. my confidence level is somewhere around 0, i'm sure that will change with some seat time. we'll hook up on one of these trips, e
QUOTE(seaduner @ Nov 2 2005, 10:35 PM)
QUOTE(etc @ Nov 2 2005, 12:27 AM)
can't find much info on them, any good resources ? what am i going to need besides the lever ? anyone have any pics of how they are hooked up ?
thanks, sorry about the bad info. e
[right][snapback]1255212[/snapback][/right]
If you have space between the seats (which I think you do) you should mount the turning brake there. Typically Funco's have a turning brake mount between the seats specifically for the up-down type of CNC turning brake, as show in this webpage. You can buy the CNC brake at Kartek or McKenzies, they both carry them, or buy it from Funco in Rialto. Print the picture and show them what you want. Measure the mounting holes in your car and take those measurements with you to confirm the footprint is identical to what Funco has for the mount.
Funco's standard hookup direction in their turn-key cars operated like this:
When you push down it turns left, pulling up it turns the car right. This means the bottom cylinder brake line of the turning brake goes to the left rear wheel, the upper cylinder goes to the right rear wheel.
This is purposely plumbed with these directions to assist the driver, leaning the body in the natural direction the car pitches you to help add more brakes in that direction. This helps when you learn to "dice it up" in the sand with buddies. As stated, it all depends on what you learn with and after a while it becomes second nature.
BTW, this is opposite of what 2dasand suggests, it just depends on which way you learn.
Last thought.... make sure you have a 2lb pressure valve in-line, between your foot master cylinder and the brake line. This keeps a tiny bit of pressure in the lines when you let off the brakes so the turning brakes don't have such a long through on the lever. It doesn't affect your brake pad wear hardly at all. My pads lasted 3 seasons, or 85 days of duning in a 4 seater Funco Gen 3. Yours should last even longer with a 2 seater, which is lighter.
I bet that's a fun car you have. See you at the regatta, right? This weekend!
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yeah, that's what i want. guess looking at the makers website should have been the first step. thanks for the info
My 2cents...
I am a firm believer in turning brakes... They are fun and if not over used can be extremely helpful in some situations...
But, the situation you are describing is not that situation. IMO...
Yeah, if your wheels are in the air turning brakes can save you from certain disaster...
but this doesn't seem to be your issue. You are saying that your front end is light when you are hard under power (same thing I have) ... it really only takes a small amount of practice to realize that it only takes a minute drop off the throttle to get that steering back.
Using the turn brake to guide your car will be useless... once you tap that brake (in this situation) your wheels will be back hard on the sand and you'll be able to use your steering.
My car pushes terribly. It's too long. I drove my entire first year with the turn brakes... then one day I "got it" and learned how to steer with the gas pedal.
This will happen with you as well.
All of that being said... there is nothing wrong with turn brakes...
I am a firm believer in turning brakes... They are fun and if not over used can be extremely helpful in some situations...
But, the situation you are describing is not that situation. IMO...
Yeah, if your wheels are in the air turning brakes can save you from certain disaster...
but this doesn't seem to be your issue. You are saying that your front end is light when you are hard under power (same thing I have) ... it really only takes a small amount of practice to realize that it only takes a minute drop off the throttle to get that steering back.
Using the turn brake to guide your car will be useless... once you tap that brake (in this situation) your wheels will be back hard on the sand and you'll be able to use your steering.
My car pushes terribly. It's too long. I drove my entire first year with the turn brakes... then one day I "got it" and learned how to steer with the gas pedal.
This will happen with you as well.
All of that being said... there is nothing wrong with turn brakes...
i know what you mean pastor, i did some experimenting with the throttle. backing out little brings the front down enough to get some steering input. this car is very light, particularily the front end. it actually handles really well, power on ripping through tight stuff it does fantastic.
actually this situation is exactly what you said, but i'm refering to climbing. it became apparent that in certain situations, such as ; climbing relatively short, very steep hills with whoops, ruts, or very angular bases, where there is no way of carrying speed into it. that require alot of throttle to crest, the car is going to go the way it is pointed. backing out of the throttle is not always a good option. several times just being able to nudge the car a little this way would have been nice.
like i said, i'm very new to driving a car. and i still need to learn to pick car lines versus quad lines. experience in the cars abilities and limitations can only come with seat time. that being said, i think i'll put turning brakes on it.
has anyone else noticed they drive better alone ? i seem to drive more aggresively when i'm alone, i seem to do better. i think it's the fear of doing something stupid and hurting the person that's with me. when i'm on my quad i'm obviously alone and only have myself to worry about. oh well guess i'll have to get over it.
but your point is taken, i'm always looking for advice to improve the ride. thanks guys
actually this situation is exactly what you said, but i'm refering to climbing. it became apparent that in certain situations, such as ; climbing relatively short, very steep hills with whoops, ruts, or very angular bases, where there is no way of carrying speed into it. that require alot of throttle to crest, the car is going to go the way it is pointed. backing out of the throttle is not always a good option. several times just being able to nudge the car a little this way would have been nice.
like i said, i'm very new to driving a car. and i still need to learn to pick car lines versus quad lines. experience in the cars abilities and limitations can only come with seat time. that being said, i think i'll put turning brakes on it.
has anyone else noticed they drive better alone ? i seem to drive more aggresively when i'm alone, i seem to do better. i think it's the fear of doing something stupid and hurting the person that's with me. when i'm on my quad i'm obviously alone and only have myself to worry about. oh well guess i'll have to get over it.
but your point is taken, i'm always looking for advice to improve the ride. thanks guys
QUOTE(etc @ Nov 2 2005, 09:24 PM)
ocean1- i've seen a few pics with the handle on the left. why ? is it in the way on the right ? seems like alot of juggling if you need to shift in a hurry. i can see bumping the lever with you elbow.
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In years past, I have had both single handle and dual handle cutting brakes mounted between the seats. Now speaking for me personally, once I went to suspensions seats, and 5-point belts, I found that once I was belted in tightly, that the best, most comfortable position for a cutting brake unit was a single level push/pull on my left side of the seat. Again speaking for myself, if I am in my seat, with belts adjusted tight, with the shifter mounted in it's optimum position for myself, any cutting brakes between the seats is not comfortable, and very awkward. I never found it a problem on the left side of my seat.
It's whatever fits you best.
i get you ocean, whatever works. be nice to drive a car with that to see what it's like. just from sitting in the car, i think i'd like it down low around 10-12" behind the shifter. what is the throw on the lever ? guess that would dictate the position and if it would be in the way or not. might be cause i'm a newbie, but i like keeping one hand on the wheel.
QUOTE(MrBuckwheat @ Nov 3 2005, 10:33 PM)
Funco's site has pictures of their standard setup. Same thing I'm running.
click for a funco picture
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click for a funco picture
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saw that pic, poor quality, bad angle, can't see mounting, can't judge handle length. how long is the handle ? and again how far is the throw ?
hey guys, any decent buggy parts shops around glamis ? i'll be down there later this week to visit my toys. will probably get a bug up my a$$ to go get some stuff. if so who's best, where are they, and how far. how about vendors row are they there during the week at all ? or are they just too high priced ? unfortunately there are'nt alot of options that i know of up here [ventura, thousand oaks] , which would'nt help much since my stuffs down there.
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